Russell Wilson

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Classic political redirect. An answer that doesn't answer. Not quite the high road, but sufficient to not stir anything up.

[RiverDog]

John Schneider was also asked about the story, and he, too, didn't deny it. From a tweet this morning by Hawks beat reporter Gregg Bell:

GM John Schneider at NFL Combine on report Russell Wilson asked Seahawks owner Jody Allen to fire him, Pete Carroll before they traded him last year: “Honestly, like, water under the bridge.”

Neither Schneider or Carroll (“no comment”) flat-out deny @TheAthletic story.

https://twitter.com/gbellseattle/status ... 6222725132

[RiverDog]

Pete had his chance to deny the report, but as Pete always does, gave a pretty classy response:

“I’m always going to hang with them, and I’m never going to leave them. I’m going to be there at the end of all of the good stuff, all of the bad stuff,” Carroll said Tuesday when asked at the NFL combine about The Athletic’s report on Wilson requesting to have Carroll fired. “It doesn’t matter who the guy is. … Regardless of what has happened or taken place or the things that have been said at all, if you hang with them, it all comes back around. I like to demonstrate that faith in the relationship and the depth of what we did together and hang through what growth challenges bring to us along the way.”

Classy response? He ducked the question. If it involved a person that you didn't have such admiration for, such as some politician, that gave a nonsensical answer to a straightforward question like that, I doubt that you'd be calling it classy.

Rather than "classy", what we ought to be calling the response is "classic". Pete can be full of more chit than a Christmas turkey, and this is a 'classic' example.

[TriCitySam]

Absolutely classy....he could've amped up the disagreement, but chose a higher route rather than fight in the media. And you have no idea about what I think. I admire people who show restraint in disagreements of this type and very little for those who don't.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's Pete, John, and Russ for you. All not wasting time with petty articles and doing the job. They'll be friends at the end of all of it just as they were at the start. Pete has dealt with so many players over the years, he fully understands players wanting to do something different or moving in a different direction. All he cares is that when they are together, they give him everything they got. All his players have done that for him while there because Pete's a great guy and they know he's got their back.

[RiverDog]

That's Pete, John, and Russ for you. All not wasting time with petty articles and doing the job. They'll be friends at the end of all of it just as they were at the start. Pete has dealt with so many players over the years, he fully understands players wanting to do something different or moving in a different direction. All he cares is that when they are together, they give him everything they got. All his players have done that for him while there because Pete's a great guy and they know he's got their back.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the issue. They're all going to lie about that stuff as it's the nature of the beast. They can't tell the truth about it because the press and fans would go bezerk, and at this point, it's water under the bridge anyway. Besides, at least at this point, we came out holding onto the long end of the stick on the deal.

But there'll be a lot of people that will use it as a pretense to keep on hating Russell. His reputation around Seattle has been irreparably damaged. It's hard to even imagine him being able to come back for a ROH ceremony without having to endure a cascade of boos. I'm intrigued by the drama, but I don't have any emotional capital invested in it.

[Hawktawk]

Pete Carroll was asked directly if Russell Wilson had lobbied to get him and JS fired. Here was his response:

Carroll was asked about Wilson’s me-or-them demand to Seahawks’ ownership, and the coach didn’t deny the story.

“My response to that is a similar response that’s always been with the guys that I’ve coached,” Carroll said Tuesday. “I’m always going to hang with them, and I’m never going to leave them. I’m going to be there at the end, with all of the good stuff and all of the bad stuff. I’m going to still be there. That’s it. I’m hanging. It doesn’t matter who the guy is. If you look at all of the guys that have come to our program, not just back to the college days, but just here at Seattle, regardless of what has happened or has taken place or things that have been said at all, if you hang with them, it all comes back around. I like to demonstrate that faith in the relationship and the depth of what we did together and hang through whatever the growth challenges bring along the way, so I’m good.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... him-fired/

That pretty much confirms the story published in the Athletic. If the story were false, Pete would have denied it, but he can't confirm it because he'd essentially be calling Russell Wilson, who has already denied their allegation, a liar, something that Pete is reluctant to do. So Pete had two choices: Tell an outright lie and deny the story like Russell has or duck the question and give some sort of gobbledygook answer that has little to do with the subject and that no one can understand and hope like hell the reporter doesn't follow up by making him answer yes or no to the question.

River I’m not sure what Pete has done to you to make you react this way . I thought what he said was about as eloquent and graceful an answer I’ve ever heard from a coach about a guy who emptied a clip in his back on the way out . He’s the bigger man , usually is . Pete’s won a lot for a long time but it’s the class and dignity which which he’s conducted himself that separates him from most . There aren’t many guys like him . A “ psychologist “ according to Beast the very best . I’m afraid we may never see the likes of Pete Carroll again when he’s gone .

[RiverDog]

River I’m not sure what Pete has done to you to make you react this way . I thought what he said was about as eloquent and graceful an answer I’ve ever heard from a coach about a guy who emptied a clip in his back on the way out . He’s the bigger man , usually is . Pete’s won a lot for a long time but it’s the class and dignity which which he’s conducted himself that separates him from most . There aren’t many guys like him . A “ psychologist “ according to Beast the very best . I’m afraid we may never see the likes of Pete Carroll again when he’s gone .

Eloquent and graceful?

It wasn't an answer, it was a statement. He didn't have the guts to answer the question honestly and chickened out. If he were completely honest, what he should have said was "Yes, Russ and I weren't seeing eye-to-eye, and he felt that we couldn't go on together, so we arranged a trade" and left Russell to his own devices. Or, he could have answered the question like JS did by saying that it was irrelevant because it's in the past instead of coming up with all this verbal diarrhea about hanging with his team.

I don't say that I blame him for ducking the question as it would have put a former player in a very difficult position. But he did so by regurgitating saying such a pile of manure that it was truly laughable. It was anything but eloquent and graceful.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the issue. They're all going to lie about that stuff as it's the nature of the beast. They can't tell the truth about it because the press and fans would go bezerk, and at this point, it's water under the bridge anyway. Besides, at least at this point, we came out holding onto the long end of the stick on the deal.

But there'll be a lot of people that will use it as a pretense to keep on hating Russell. His reputation around Seattle has been irreparably damaged. It's hard to even imagine him being able to come back for a ROH ceremony without having to endure a cascade of boos. I'm intrigued by the drama, but I don't have any emotional capital invested in it.

You know how this goes in sports, gossip mags, politics, music, and whatever. When you're down, they hate on you. When you're up, they pump you up. Nature of the game. I've watched so many people attacked and built up that didn't deserve either I'm used to at this point.

The masses are fickle. They get to believe whatever they feel like believing the media puts out. Sometimes they hate you for the way you look or talk. It's part of being a public figure, which is why there are more than a few folks in those professions who like the job but hate the fame.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the issue. They're all going to lie about that stuff as it's the nature of the beast. They can't tell the truth about it because the press and fans would go bezerk, and at this point, it's water under the bridge anyway. Besides, at least at this point, we came out holding onto the long end of the stick on the deal.

But there'll be a lot of people that will use it as a pretense to keep on hating Russell. His reputation around Seattle has been irreparably damaged. It's hard to even imagine him being able to come back for a ROH ceremony without having to endure a cascade of boos. I'm intrigued by the drama, but I don't have any emotional capital invested in it.

You know how this goes in sports, gossip mags, politics, music, and whatever. When you're down, they hate on you. When you're up, they pump you up. Nature of the game. I've watched so many people attacked and built up that didn't deserve either I'm used to at this point.

The masses are fickle. They get to believe whatever they feel like believing the media puts out. Sometimes they hate you for the way you look or talk. It's part of being a public figure, which is why there are more than a few folks in those professions who like the job but hate the fame.

Yep. And it's always been that way.

One of my favorite sports documentaries is "Baseball", by Ken Burns. In it, they talked about how Ted Williams, one of if not the best player in the game during his era, was constantly feuding with the fans and the press, intentionally lining foul balls into the stands at fans who jeered him, refusing to tip his cap to applause after hitting a home run, etc. Roger Maris went through pure hell from the press and fans in his home run chase of Babe Ruth.

And you're right about a lot of people not enjoying the fame and living their lives in a fishbowl. It's a major problem with our electoral process as a whole lot of very good leaders wouldn't touch public life with a 10' pole. I know I'd never like living that kind of life.

But with Russell, I get the impression that he loves the attention and enjoys being a celebrity and in the spotlight, which is why my sympathy for what he's going through is very limited. He's made his own bed.

[Hawktawk]

River I’m not sure what Pete has done to you to make you react this way . I thought what he said was about as eloquent and graceful an answer I’ve ever heard from a coach about a guy who emptied a clip in his back on the way out . He’s the bigger man , usually is . Pete’s won a lot for a long time but it’s the class and dignity which which he’s conducted himself that separates him from most . There aren’t many guys like him . A “ psychologist “ according to Beast the very best . I’m afraid we may never see the likes of Pete Carroll again when he’s gone .

Eloquent and graceful?

It wasn't an answer, it was a statement. He didn't have the guts to answer the question honestly and chickened out. If he were completely honest, what he should have said was "Yes, Russ and I weren't seeing eye-to-eye, and he felt that we couldn't go on together, so we arranged a trade" and left Russell to his own devices. Or, he could have answered the question like JS did by saying that it was irrelevant because it's in the past instead of coming up with all this verbal diarrhea about hanging with his team.

I don't say that I blame him for ducking the question as it would have put a former player in a very difficult position. But he did so by regurgitating saying such a pile of manure that it was truly laughable. It was anything but eloquent and graceful.

JS was the mealy mouthed smoke blower. What did he mean? he addressed nothing like I really give a damn anyway. F team 3 say it like it is for all I care but Pete did a beautiful job. Chickened out? Pet makes business decisions. He doesnt chicken out from much and if the last couple years haven't proven it dont know what will.
It was a clever sincere well thought statement that answered the question and also answered the question about how he felt about it in a very magnanimous way, generous.

I think the statement about "I'm hanging with ANY of the guys who played for me NO MATTER WHATS BEEN SAID" =I want them fired"" adresses long simmering issues with Bennett, Sherm, ET, etc that hes still in their corner. More than any of them deserved, especially Russell .
I wont say I was surprised it was clever because pete's a master of the english language, quite fluent but it was more graceful than I expected after the chippiness Pete had shown last season.
This thing with Russ hurt him bad. But man you're just wrong in every way on this one .

[RiverDog]

It was a clever sincered well thought statement that answered the question and answered the question about how he felt about it in a very magnanimous way, generous.
JS was the mealy mouthed smoke blower. What did he mean? he addressed nothing like I really give a damn anyway.
I think the statement about "I'm hanging with any of the guys who played for me no matter what's been said" =I want them fired"" adresses long simmering issues with Bennett, Sherm, ET, etc that hes still in their corner. More than any of them deserved, especially Russell . I wont say I was surprised it was clever because pete's a master of the english language, quite fluent but it was more graceful than I expected after the chippiness Pete had shown last season.
This thing with Russ hurt him bad. But man you're just wrong in every way on this one. I wont wait for a retraction holding my breath .

Clever and well thought? Quit pulling my leg, my knee hurts enough as it is.

I mentioned the Ken Burns' documentary 'Baseball" earlier in the thread. In it, they spent quite a bit of time talking about Casey Stengel, the highly successful manager of the Yankees in the 50's. If he didn't want you to know what he was thinking or was asked a question that he didn't want to answer, he'd respond in such a manner that he jumbled up things so much that no one knew what the hell he was talking about. The reporters would walk away, forgetting what it was they had asked, rolling their eyes and scratching their heads and ask each other "what was it he just said?" They had a term for it: Stengelese. We know it as Pete Speak. It's like the Abbott and Costello comedy routine "Who's on first?"

Another name for it is the Mushroom Treatment: Keep them in the dark and feed 'em bull$hit.

In contrast, JS's response to the same question was very brief and not nearly as rambling. All he said was that it was water under the bridge and that he wasn't going to discuss it. I don't call that blowing smoke. It's a lot more honest and to the point than the answer Pete gave.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I see it as not willing to risk any statement that might put Russell Wilson in a negative light. Even if Carroll politely and pragmatically phrased a confirmation, it would still be a confirmation of something Wilson publicly denied. I would imagine that would just stir up the media even more, so he didn't contradict Wilson and he didn't lie about it. As verbose as Carroll was, he just didn't say anything about what actually happened. Neither did Schneider. It's a justified approach, and not something I'm going to criticize. By not adding to the speculation, it keeps it in the rear view mirror, for them at least.

Edit: I can see where the amount of words he used would bother some people; it's not a big deal to me. We know why he does it.

[Hawktawk]

Pete was sincere in using the opportunity to send a message to his players past and present. John was flippant but Pete is the clown apparently. Their responses make clear its a true story without saying it. Perfect response, the high road response.

[RiverDog]

I see it as not willing to risk any statement that might put Russell Wilson in a negative light. Even if Carroll politely and pragmatically phrased a confirmation, it would still be a confirmation of something Wilson publicly denied. I would imagine that would just stir up the media even more, so he didn't contradict Wilson and he didn't lie about it. As verbose as Carroll was, he just didn't say anything about what actually happened. Neither did Schneider. It's a justified approach, and not something I'm going to criticize. By not adding to the speculation, it keeps it in the rear view mirror, for them at least.

Oh, I agree completely. My only beef was with HT and TCS blowing smoke up Pete's hind end by charactering what he said as 'classy'. The fact that Pete didn't come out and put Russell in the position of having to defend what is now understood as a lie was definitely classy, and I'm not even criticizing him for saying it the way he did. But let's call a spade a spade. How he said it was laughable. A simple yes or no question is answered with 121 words (I counted) that didn't apply to the topic is classy?

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I can get with that. It's leaning into the high road direction, but classy is a bit much.

[Aseahawkfan]

Sean Payton, Carroll, and Schneider are treating all this Russell gossip like it matters them to about as much as gum they stepped on in the street: scrape it off and forget about. It has nothing to do with their jobs or business of winning football games.

[Hawktawk]

Sean Payton, Carroll, and Schneider are treating all this Russell gossip like it matters them to about as much as gum they stepped on in the street: scrape it off and forget about. It has nothing to do with their jobs or business of winning football games.

Exactly

[Hawktawk]

Russ rolled a golf cart , flipped it over in a huge bunker . Thank goodness he’s ok . Hundreds of people die on golf carts every year . But I’m just like wow man how did you do that ?

[NorthHawk]

I almost went into a bunker once. I didn't know the course and was looking for my ball and suddenly there was a bunker behind a tree.

[c_hawkbob]

Is a bunker the same as a sand trap?

[RiverDog]

Is a bunker the same as a sand trap?

It's Hawktawk's line of work, but my understanding is that a bunker is a low spot or depression on the fairway or off the green where you can't see the pin, sometimes with a sand trap, other times not.

How's that, HT?

[c_hawkbob]

Is a bunker the same as a sand trap?

It's Hawktawk's line of work, but my understanding is that a bunker is a low spot or depression on the fairway or off the green where you can't see the pin, sometimes with a sand trap, other times not.

How's that, HT?

So a sand trap is a bunker but a bunker is not necessarily a sand trap. Like a thumb is a phalanx but a phalanx is not necessarily a thumb.

[RiverDog]

Is a bunker the same as a sand trap?

It's Hawktawk's line of work, but my understanding is that a bunker is a low spot or depression on the fairway or off the green where you can't see the pin, sometimes with a sand trap, other times not.

How's that, HT?

So a sand trap is a bunker but a bunker is not necessarily a sand trap. Like a thumb is a phalanx but a phalanx is not necessarily a thumb.

Not quite. A sand trap doesn't have to be a bunker. I bunker is a place that has an obstruction between the low spot and the pin. A sand trap can be on a completely flat surface with a clear look at the pin.

Think of WW2 bunkers, a defensible position but that you can't see chit from.

[c_hawkbob]

That visual works, even for a duffer like me.

[Hawktawk]

I use the 2 terms interchangeably . It’s a sand bunker /trap . We specifically use the term bunker here . I’ve seen it all in 38 years including a rollover DUI on a cart but never saw one upside down in a bunker . Saw a guy roll one off the cart path right into the landscape bed on 10 at MLCC. My personal was spraying greens with 150 gal of water and having my tire slip on the edge of a huge deep bunker . I punched it and turned into it and drove out through it . Ripped off all my nozzles and tore up the bunker but it was that or wear a sprayer any you all wouldn’t be hearing from me anymore . .
Bunkers suck . They are a pain in the ass to maintain , in the way .

[RiverDog]

I use the 2 terms interchangeably . It’s a sand bunker /trap . We specifically use the term bunker here . I’ve seen it all in 38 years including a rollover DUI on a cart but never saw one upside down in a bunker . Saw a guy roll one off the cart path right into the landscape bed on 10 at MLCC. My personal was spraying greens with 150 gal of water and having my tire slip on the edge of a huge deep bunker . I punched it and turned into it and drove out through it . Ripped off all my nozzles and tore up the bunker but it was that or wear a sprayer any you all wouldn’t be hearing from me anymore . .
Bunkers suck . They are a pain in the ass to maintain , in the way .

'Bunker' must be one of those terms that depends on the user. I make a differentiation, that a sand trap can give you a clear look at the pin, but a bunker has a hill or ridge in front of the pin, adding to the difficulty of getting out of the sand trap or depression. And obviously, in order to flip a cart, Russell must have been trying to negotiate a hill or rise, so their understanding of a bunker must have been closer to what I've come to know the term.

I've never seen anyone roll a golf cart, but I've seen a couple of close calls. It could be a real disaster as there's no seat belts in them to prevent a person from being thrown out and rolled over by the cart. Especially if it's a battery operated one, it is a potentially fatal accident.

I can imagine that bunkers/sand traps are difficult to maintain. You can't just drive a tractor over them to mow the grass so they must be rather time consuming.

[Hawktawk]

Edging , moving sand around , adding sand (3 k per truck ) . Walking through blowing out leaves then re raking . Dealing with dogs getting on course and running in freshly raked bunkers . Golfers not raking . And yeah you don’t just drive through them on a mower etc . When I was at Moses Point we had 102 bunkers built in all . Over 200 k just in sand . Wind blew half out . They are filling a bunch in now .
As for jargon a bunker doesn’t need sand ,ie waste bunker , grass bunker . But all are bunkers in my world . And good design means hazards should be visible from the tee and shooting areas and other then a fairway bunker you should usually be able to see your target . I think Russ was just chillin playing golf and spaced on his phone or something , admiring the beauty and boom . A good cart does 20 plus . Glad he’s ok and fun to talk about golf too so thanks Russ .

[RiverDog]

Edging , moving sand around , adding sand (3 k per truck ) . Walking through blowing out leaves then re raking . Dealing with dogs getting on course and running in freshly raked bunkers . Golfers not raking . And yeah you don’t just drive through them on a mower etc . When I was at Moses Point we had 102 bunkers built in all . Over 200 k just in sand . Wind blew half out . They are filling a bunch in now .
As for jargon a bunker doesn’t need sand ,ie waste bunker , grass bunker . But all are bunkers in my world . And good design means hazards should be visible from the tee and shooting areas and other then a fairway bunker you should usually be able to see your target . I think Russ was just chillin playing golf and spaced on his phone or something , admiring the beauty and boom . A good cart does 20 plus . Glad he’s ok and fun to talk about golf too so thanks Russ .

I hadn't thought of half of the stuff you said about maintaining sand traps and bunkers. Sounds like it's worse than maintaining a green. Down here at Columbia Point, we had a heck of a problem with geese chitting all over the greens and fairways.

I haven't golfed for two years since before the pandemic. My golfing buddy moved away a couple of years ago and recently passed away. I'd love to get back into the sport someday. I picked it up late in life so I'm not any good as I've never broke 90, but like we used to say, a bad day at golf beats a good day at work.

[Hawktawk]

I ran Vic Meyers at sun lakes for ten years . Talk about geese . And it’s a state park . I may have bent the rules a bit there to keep greens a goose will not only crap everywhere but chew a hole 8 inches in diameter in the green in short order . Flying rats . Hate them .
I used to be an 8 handicap in the 90s shooting regularly in the mid 70 s to low 80s . My chipping and putting was almost tour quality which is why I was scoring decent spraying the ball all over . Now my arthritis is so bad along with hand eye coordination I flatly suck the 4 or 5 times a year I play . And I don’t have to pay . It’s hard to enjoy the game when you used to be really good at it .
You ever get up this way I’ll put you on the course .

[RiverDog]

I ran Vic Meyers at sun lakes for ten years . Talk about geese . And it’s a state park . I may have bent the rules a bit there to keep greens a goose will not only crap everywhere but chew a hole 8 inches in diameter in the green in short order . Flying rats . Hate them .
I used to be an 8 handicap in the 90s shooting regularly in the mid 70 s to low 80s . My chipping and putting was almost tour quality which is why I was scoring decent spraying the ball all over . Now my arthritis is so bad along with hand eye coordination I flatly suck the 4 or 5 times a year I play . And I don’t have to pay . It’s hard to enjoy the game when you used to be really good at it .
You ever get up this way I’ll put you on the course .

I still haven't forgotten about going up there sometime to pay you a visit, perhaps this summer. But boy, I'd embarrass myself if I ever paired up with someone that really knows how to play. My arthritis has gotten bad, too. I can't make a fist anymore and haven't tried gripping a club since it got this bad. Getting old sucks.

[RiverDog]

Since things are understandably slow, I thought I'd dig up a topic that's sure to get some responses...good ole Russell. Here's some comments from another fan, pure conjecture for sure, that I thought were very interesting in that I think at least to some degree that there's some truth to them:

Over Wilson's last 3-4 years his Social media presence became unbearable. he was RELENTLESSLY shilling personal products, his camps, his podcast - it was beyond what I have seen - and it was in perfect step with Wilson literally speaking about 'his brand' and 'his legacy' and it wore really thin with the fans. The last straw for a lot of fans was the payoff loss to the hates Lambs - AT HOME. Wilson looked un prepared and uninterested - this was the season 'let russ cook' got shutdown because he was throwing a ton of interceptions. As long as it wss all about him - he's good to go. He chases personal accolades while sucking up salary cap and performing horribly in the playoffs. His social media was obnoxious to say the least. As soon as the sh*t hit the fan in Denver and the Subway embarrassment, etal, his SM (social media) presence literally went from shilling his products to "jesus is great'. It was all calculated damage control - to protect the brand, the image. Seahawk fans saw through it a mile way - this was classic Wilson.

The good news for bronco fans is now you have a guy who is legit motivated - getting humbled like that should make him hungry again - I hope for your sake. Loved the dude when he was a hawk - but things like his SM presence led to his demise in Seattle - and his total lack of motivation outside of anything brand or legacy related - It was beyond unbearable. Wilson apologists never lived through that - guaranteed. Good luck this year - sincere

First off, let's be clear about our friend Hawktawk's take on Russell. It was not an outlier opinion, to the contrary, from what I've seen and heard, there is a very large percentage of fans that share HT's sentiment. Exactly what percentage it is, I can't say. People that have a burning dislike can yell loud enough to where it seems like there's a whole helluva lot of them while those that like him won't say a peep. Same with written comments in forums like this one. Is it a majority of fans? Maybe, maybe not. Suffice it to say that it involves a lot more than some of us are willing to admit.

My opinion is that Russell underwent a significant change in personality over the 8-10 years. Some people attribute it to his marrying Ciera, others note that his close personal friend and trainer passed away a few years ago. There was no one to tell him when he was being 'cringy' or insanely silly, like his Subway commercials, telling everyone that he did knee highs on their flight to England while his teammates slept, that he's on a diet where he doesn't take a crap for 3 days, and so on.

I was luke warm about the trade. I felt that either Pete or Russell had to go, and at the time, I felt it should have been Pete. I definitely wasn't disappointed by the trade. I felt that Russell's skills had deteriorated, that he had not compensated for his advancing age, that he held onto the ball too damn long, and so on. I felt that he could change, and that a new coach might be the answer. It's pretty clear now that trading Russell was one of the best decisions our FO has made in a number of years.

Anyhow, I'm curious as to if you folks' opinion about Russell has changed over the past couple of years. Was HT right?

[NorthHawk]

He did change. Everybody changes over time and it might have affected him to a degree but mostly because his off field concerns took away his focus from football. Maybe he started to take his success for granted, we'll never know.
I think his core values still remained, but would we be having this conversation if the team was still winning? I somehow doubt it so I think a lot of this negativity comes from social media where everyone and his dog pile on when an athlete has a bad spell, like a flock of chickens pecking at the one bird who lost some feathers and developed a bare patch or blood.
Whatever happened, if he's really wanting to rebound, he won't have a better opportunity than with Payton in Denver, so we will see how he does.

[RiverDog]

He did change. Everybody changes over time and it might have affected him to a degree but mostly because his off field concerns took away his focus from football. Maybe he started to take his success for granted, we'll never know.
I think his core values still remained, but would we be having this conversation if the team was still winning? I somehow doubt it so I think a lot of this negativity comes from social media where everyone and his dog pile on when an athlete has a bad spell, like a flock of chickens pecking at the one bird who lost some feathers and developed a bare patch or blood.
Whatever happened, if he's really wanting to rebound, he won't have a better opportunity than with Payton in Denver, so we will see how he does.

You're absolutely right about not winning. Winning cures a lot of evils. People nominate you for President, buy your jerseys, name their kids after you. We definitely would not be having this conversation if Russell were winning.

But he hasn't been winning. Over the past two seasons with two separate teams and two different coaches, Russell is 10-21 as a starter. It's only natural that people will wonder why, come up with their own theories, start taking cheap shots.

IMO more so than his off-field concerns, Russell's on field changes/failure to change has affected his lack of success. He has clearly lost a step, isn't nearly as elusive as he once was. Defenses have figured him out as edge rushers will come in on a wider loop, anticipating Russell's reverse spin, and he'll run into a sack. From what I can see, he hasn't been taking as deep of drops as he once did. He's failed to make the adjustments to his game necessary to play at a high level into his 30's.

Unlike other older quarterbacks, like Worthlessburger and Brady, Russell was always near the bottom of the league in time to throw, which when combined with a sub par offensive line, led to more sacks. I once did a little homework and discovered that the QB with the next oldest with a longer time to throw was 6-8 years younger than him. For some reason, he was not throwing short to open receivers, something that was very apparent watching games in person from the upper levels of a stadium. The arrival of DK Metcalf IMO in some ways had a negative effect on Russell's overall play as his first instinct was to look for DK on a fly route, passing up an open receiver just beyond the sticks. He started comparing Metcalf and himself to Montana and Rice as one of the best QB/WR combinations ever.

If you take a look at Russell's stats from this past season with the Broncos, you'll see where he led the league in sacks taken and had one of the longest time to throw averages. They aren't coincidental. There's a definite relationship leading to an inescapable conclusion: He's holding onto the ball too damn long.

On the off field concerns, Russell's just plain tone deaf, doesn't seem to realize what you alluded to earlier, that when you're losing, people are going to come at you throwing all sorts of expletive deleted stuff. He's kept behaving as if he were winning and everything was peachy keen. Rather than laying low and flying under the radar, he was still very active on SM, posting pictures of himself lounging in Cabo during the bye, the knee highs on their flight to Europe, etc. All this goofy stuff made him an easy target, turned him into a laughingstock.

[NorthHawk]

It's a team game, so the lack of on field success can also be directed towards a declining Defense. That put far more pressure on him than before, so if we had a solid Defense, we would have won more. It's a bit of a circular argument, but I think it holds some degree of validity. Last year was simply an organizational scat show and I think most QBs would have had a hard time being successful. Apparently he's lost some weight this off season so maybe he will get back some of the quickness that age took away.

Time to throw is one of those things that can have various causes. Brady used a lot of quick throws in that Offense, so did Roethlisberger. Our Offense was different as the philosophy was pound the rock and throw deep. Obviously deep passes take longer to run than quick outs or slants Add to it a suspect OL, and we see the results. But Wilson contributed to that, too, so the combination would give us the statistic we see today. I also think the last few years there was an aspect of 'Hero Ball' to Wilson's game as he tried to make something out of nothing or at least more than what was there. I think it was part of last years issue, too along with the organizational dysfunction.

After a full off season with Payton, we will see if he can actually turn it around. I think he can and after last years debacle, I think he will be really motivated.
It'll be interesting to view from afar.

[RiverDog]

It's a team game, so the lack of on field success can also be directed towards a declining Defense. That put far more pressure on him than before, so if we had a solid Defense, we would have won more. It's a bit of a circular argument, but I think it holds some degree of validity. Last year was simply an organizational scat show and I think most QBs would have had a hard time being successful. Apparently he's lost some weight this off season so maybe he will get back some of the quickness that age took away.

But Denver had a very good defense, ranked 7th in the league in total yards, so at least when looking at his combined performance over the past two seasons, we can't use the lack of a good defense to explain how Russell's w/l record has suffered.

Nevertheless, I wasn't necessarily blaming the losses on Russell, at least not in their entirety. My point was that for whatever reason, he hasn't been winning, and by virtue of playing the most impactful position on the field, people are going to blame him, psychoanalyze him, look for flaws in not only his game, but his personality, his wife, his charitable efforts, everything he's associated with. He seems to me to be oblivious to that fact.

Time to throw is one of those things that can have various causes. Brady used a lot of quick throws in that Offense, so did Roethlisberger. Our Offense was different as the philosophy was pound the rock and throw deep. Obviously deep passes take longer to run than quick outs or slants Add to it a suspect OL, and we see the results. But Wilson contributed to that, too, so the combination would give us the statistic we see today. I also think the last few years there was an aspect of 'Hero Ball' to Wilson's game as he tried to make something out of nothing or at least more than what was there. I think it was part of last years issue, too along with the organizational dysfunction.

Once again, I have to point to the fact that we're not just talking about our team, we're talking about his current team as well. He had the exact same problem in Denver this season as he had his last few years with us. IMO when you lead the league in sacks AND are one of the longest in time to throw, especially when you eliminate younger, more fleet footed running QB's like Lamar Jackson and Justin Fields, it's an inescapable conclusion: He's holding onto the ball too long.

The "hero ball" aspect to his game was definitely a factor in is time to throw, at least when he was with us. It's not as apparent on TV as it is inside the stadium because you can't see the open receivers he's not throwing to, but you can sure see it from the 300 level of a football stadium.

Russell's offensive lines haven't been great, usually in the bottom 1/3, but there's been other quarterbacks that have succeeded with far worse OL's, in particular, Joe Burrow, who was ranked 2nd behind Brady in time to throw last season. If you don't have a good OL to give you time in the pocket, you have to adjust your game to compensate for it. Russell clearly hasn't done that.

After a full off season with Payton, we will see if he can actually turn it around. I think he can and after last years debacle, I think he will be really motivated. It'll be interesting to view from afar.

I agree. Russell might be a lot of things, but he's not one to shirk from a challenge, and last season has to have made him feel like he was walking around with his fly unzipped. But it's going to take a fundamental change in how he approaches the game, both physically and mentally. It's no different than a substance abuse problem: The first step to recovery is acceptance of the problem. I'm not sure if he's had that "come to Jesus" moment that has sufficiently humbled him. He doesn't seem to have changed is approach, posting workout videos and stuff on social media.

To say it's going to be interesting is an understatement, at least for me. It will be intriguing, riveting. I won't be nearly as interested in the outcome as I was last year since we don't have nearly the same amount of draft capital riding on it, but it's still going to be a can't miss event.

[NorthHawk]

Apparently Payton has taken away all of Wilson's perks from last year and has treated him the same as any other player, no better and no worse.
That in itself should send a big message that he has to change. Now the challenge for him will be can he really absorb and fully understand his new Offense and plays. He has the intelligence to do so, but does he have the drive at this point in his career?
Part of the mystery of the upcoming year for Denver.

[RiverDog]

Apparently Payton has taken away all of Wilson's perks from last year and has treated him the same as any other player, no better and no worse.
That in itself should send a big message that he has to change. Now the challenge for him will be can he really absorb and fully understand his new Offense and plays. He has the intelligence to do so, but does he have the drive at this point in his career?
Part of the mystery of the upcoming year for Denver.

I was astounded that Hackett would have allowed such excesses as Russell's own private coach and an office in the training facility in the first place. That was bound to create a rift amongst at least a few players, especially when things aren't going well. Payton has a little bit more credibility as a HC than Hackett did, and Russell has lost some as a player, so it wasn't a surprise when Payton came in and laid down the law.

If I were to guess, my answer to your question would be yes. Certainly, the old Russell Wilson would have the drive, but this is a different person that we're talking about, so who knows. I wouldn't want to bet for or against him. It's going to be a very intriguing drama.

[Old but Slow]

If I were Payton (I'd be making more $), I would run passing plays in practice with no deep routes. At least part of the time. Make Russell pay attention to those short routes and recognize when they are happening. I always found it frustrating when he would chuck it deep when he has a crossing route so open it could be Oprah.

I added the last part for River.

Or, another approach would be use a quick whistle, so that Russ does not have time to look deep.

In the end it is up to the man.

[Oly]

After a day to process the trade, I was for it. The fact is, for a few seasons lots of us had seen the issues RD was discussing. He was playing it bizarrely safe, as in he'd have what seemed to be challenging-but-manageable throws over the middle or near the sticks and he wouldn't pull the trigger. Then he'd scramble but without his younger legs, and there were just too many times this decision making led to 3-and-outs. He didn't have the legs to play his previous brand of football and didn't have the height to transition to a pure pocket passer. So even without all of the off-the-field stuff, he just didn't show that he could evolve as he aged. So while I expect him to be better with Payton for both football and off-the-field reasons, I don't see him ever being a top-10 QB again.

I think the other big point, and one RD mentioned, was the loss of his QB coach/best friend/mentor/handler/everything. Before, Russ could just focus on football, but after Trevor died, he took on all that other stuff, and didn't realize he was in over his head. Lots of stuff went off the rails at that point. It's a normal time elite athletes would start thinking about legacy, and he always had that streak in him, but he started spending too much time and energy on that.

This metaphor just struck me, and I don't know if it's good, but it amuses me. Russ' efforts to be The Guy (the legacy, the office on the 2nd floor in Denver, the public image stuff) reminds me of that nun who tried to fix that 19th Century mural of Jesus in Spain. He started with good intentions, things got out of hand, he didn't know when to quit or get help and just plowed ahead, and he ended up with an image that looked like the bloated, misshapen face of Jesus.

Ok, now I'm sold my metaphor is perfect.

But back to football: if he can regain his focus and hunger and Payton can get an offense installed in one year that uses play action to set up a passing game designed around a moving pocket, then I think Russ can be good again. But I'd still take Geno over him.