Russell Wilson

[RiverDog]

After a day to process the trade, I was for it. The fact is, for a few seasons lots of us had seen the issues RD was discussing. He was playing it bizarrely safe, as in he'd have what seemed to be challenging-but-manageable throws over the middle or near the sticks and he wouldn't pull the trigger. Then he'd scramble but without his younger legs, and there were just too many times this decision making led to 3-and-outs. He didn't have the legs to play his previous brand of football and didn't have the height to transition to a pure pocket passer. So even without all of the off-the-field stuff, he just didn't show that he could evolve as he aged. So while I expect him to be better with Payton for both football and off-the-field reasons, I don't see him ever being a top-10 QB again.

I think the other big point, and one RD mentioned, was the loss of his QB coach/best friend/mentor/handler/everything. Before, Russ could just focus on football, but after Trevor died, he took on all that other stuff, and didn't realize he was in over his head. Lots of stuff went off the rails at that point. It's a normal time elite athletes would start thinking about legacy, and he always had that streak in him, but he started spending too much time and energy on that.

This metaphor just struck me, and I don't know if it's good, but it amuses me. Russ' efforts to be The Guy (the legacy, the office on the 2nd floor in Denver, the public image stuff) reminds me of that nun who tried to fix that 19th Century mural of Jesus in Spain. He started with good intentions, things got out of hand, he didn't know when to quit or get help and just plowed ahead, and he ended up with an image that looked like the bloated, misshapen face of Jesus.

Ok, now I'm sold my metaphor is perfect.

But back to football: if he can regain his focus and hunger and Payton can get an offense installed in one year that uses play action to set up a passing game designed around a moving pocket, then I think Russ can be good again. But I'd still take Geno over him.

The way things are now, I'd definitely take Geno over Russell, as I would 10-12 other QB's around the league. He's regressed that much over the past few years, at least in my mind.

Russell is still tone deaf and doesn't seem to realize that he's everybody's favorite punching bag, posting videos of himself working out in the offseason. Here's what a former NFL player and Denver sports personality had to say about it:

“Forget Let’s Ride, let’s slide,” he said on his Mile High Football podcast, via Denver Sports, regarding the slide board exercises Wilson was doing. Schlereth went on to say the video is probably not a huge concern, but that it is something to keep an eye on in light of his recent struggles. His main issue is obviously not the Super Bowl 48 winner’s ambition or offseason commitment, but seemingly the choice to advertise it on social media.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/le ... r-AA1d7Z2p

[NorthHawk]

If you read or hear comments from players who played with him both from Seattle and in Denver, the same comment arises that he's always the same dude, every day and works his butt off.
Maybe he can't adjust to new schemes, but maybe it's just one of those things where it got stale in Seattle and hugely disorganized in Denver.
I hope he turns it around in Denver and recovers some of the magic of his early years here.

[RiverDog]

If you read or hear comments from players who played with him both from Seattle and in Denver, the same comment arises that he's always the same dude, every day and works his butt off.

That's simply not true. Just last year, it was revealed by Sherman and Beast that they don't even have Russell's personal phone number, that he makes them go through his manager. That doesn't sound like "always the same dude" to me.

And let's not forget about this scathing article out of SI in 2017, that said among other things:

But a dozen sources with direct knowledge of the Seahawks’ internal dynamics who spoke to Sports Illustrated this summer (2017) also pointed to a locker room they contend had fractured last season, with private spats spilling into public view and a rift deepening between those who supported Wilson and those who felt the coaches held him to a different standard.

But roughly half the locker room had issues, according to its inhabitants. Some complaints were pettier than others: that Wilson had his own space for treatment in the facility, which some thought was off-limits to his teammates and others insist was not; or that he didn’t interact with other players at the team’s annual Christmas party.

Some also dispute that Wilson puts in the work necessary to earn his status with the team and in NFL at large, believing he has prioritized his business interests over football. Others at Seahawks headquarters disavow that characterization. Their opposition speaks to the sort of polarizing presence Wilson had become in Renton.

The quarterback took members of the offense and defense to Hawaii for a retreat before that season, to, according to sources, repair any lingering issues. But some lingered. “A lot of people felt like he was doing that to save face,” says one player who was there. “We were like, What is this? Why are we here? He was disingenuous."

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/07/seatt ... te-carroll

There's a lot more dirt in that article, but I don't think it necessary to make my point, which is that there was enough smoke coming out of the Seahawk locker room about Russell's difficulties with his teammates that there has to have been a fire. I don't think that there's any question that, at least in the past, Russell has had more than his fair share of problems getting along with his teammates.

Maybe he can't adjust to new schemes, but maybe it's just one of those things where it got stale in Seattle and hugely disorganized in Denver.

I hope he turns it around in Denver and recovers some of the magic of his early years here.

Now that we don't have the draft capital riding on his team's performance, I'm completely neutral on the subject. I'm not rooting for or against him. Same goes for any potential HOF induction. That should not be interpreted as my being anything less than deeply appreciative for the time he spent with us and for his role in the best period of Seahawk football in franchise history, and if I'm fortunate to be in the stadium on the day he's admitted to our ROH, I'll politely applaud same as I would any other former Hawk player or coach.

[NorthHawk]

I get the impression that he didn't or doesn't hang around with team mates much, but the discussions were in the practice facilities and on game day.
The comments were always he was trying to get better, the first guy in and one of the last guys to leave and working hard all day and it didn't change. So not giving out his phone number to former team mates would fit.
He's just a different type of person and always has been to some degree.

[RiverDog]

I get the impression that he didn't or doesn't hang around with team mates much, but the discussions were in the practice facilities and on game day.
The comments were always he was trying to get better, the first guy in and one of the last guys to leave and working hard all day and it didn't change. So not giving out his phone number to former team mates would fit.
He's just a different type of person and always has been to some degree.

Yeah, there's no doubt that Russell is a different type of person.

The problem, as I see it, is that Russell acts like this gregarious, fun loving, friends to everyone type of guy in public, the polar opposite of someone like Tom Brady, who can act very aloof at times. Not giving out your phone number to friends is the act of an introvert, a loner, a person who prefers to be by themselves. It does not fit the type of person Russell portrays himself to be in public. That, to me and apparently to Beast and Sherman, seems a bit disingenuous.

It certainly used to be that Russell was the first to arrive and the last to leave practices, but I'm not sure if that's the case anymore. He's allowed himself to get out of shape, hence his efforts to lose weight, so he's obviously not as dedicated as he once was.

[NorthHawk]

There was an interview in PFT this past weekend and the former Broncos player said Wilson was always there early and worked real hard and left late. It seems he was impressed by Wilson's work ethic.
The added weight might have been by design to withstand the pounding he has taken. Michael Vick is advocating that Tua add more pounds for that reason, so I'm thinking it's not from getting sloppy in the training sessions.
As well, it's been said he looks a lot slimmer this year, so maybe Payton told him to get back to his early playing weight.

Edit:
Bradley Chubb from PFT

“He gets so much flak. It’s crazy, bro, because he do the absolute most that he can possibly do to make sure that he’s the best he possibly can be, you know what I mean?” Chubb said. “He doesn’t miss a step. When he has a fluke year like this, bro, you just have to chalk it up. Bro, you had a bad year. But it gets so glorified because of who he is, who he’s been, what he’s done. You have to look it as a nod to who you are as a person. ‘I’m on this pedestal, everybody wants to knock me down.’ That’s how it is with him. All the different allegations, he has to sit there and take it. It was dope to see how he just stayed the same person throughout it all. It was unfortunate that we just couldn’t reach the potential that we all thought we was going to be.”

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Well, all his hard work seems to be for naught right now. Perhaps it was just a down year, like Chubb says, but Russ hasn't been old Russ for a while. We've covered it extensively; there are/were multiple issues explaining Russ's decline in play, and his decision making was one of those issues. Holding the ball too long, forcing throws into double coverage, and unwillingness to throw over the middle are on him. He's got to correct those things.

First in, last out sounds good, but it doesn't jive well with having a personal office and personal training/coaching staff in the building. I'd like to know if guys like P. Manning, Rodgers, Brees, and Brady had personal offices and personal staff in the building, but that's a lot easier to accept when you're "the" guy elevating the entire team. Like River said, the disparity in treatment becomes more acutely apparent when the team is losing.

DOn't know about the weigh thing. No way to really know that was mostly muscle added. I remember the article back in I think 2018? about his diet and training regimen. Sounded really good, but that was over 4 years ago. A lot can happen since then.

I'll be happy if he can return to form and finish out his career on a high note, but I'm not concerning myself with it; well, perhaps a little if he ends up on my fantasy football team.

[RiverDog]

There was an interview in PFT this past weekend and the former Broncos player said Wilson was always there early and worked real hard and left late. It seems he was impressed by Wilson's work ethic.
The added weight might have been by design to withstand the pounding he has taken. Michael Vick is advocating that Tua add more pounds for that reason, so I'm thinking it's not from getting sloppy in the training sessions.
As well, it's been said he looks a lot slimmer this year, so maybe Payton told him to get back to his early playing weight.

Edit:
Bradley Chubb from PFT

“He gets so much flak. It’s crazy, bro, because he do the absolute most that he can possibly do to make sure that he’s the best he possibly can be, you know what I mean?” Chubb said. “He doesn’t miss a step. When he has a fluke year like this, bro, you just have to chalk it up. Bro, you had a bad year. But it gets so glorified because of who he is, who he’s been, what he’s done. You have to look it as a nod to who you are as a person. ‘I’m on this pedestal, everybody wants to knock me down.’ That’s how it is with him. All the different allegations, he has to sit there and take it. It was dope to see how he just stayed the same person throughout it all. It was unfortunate that we just couldn’t reach the potential that we all thought we was going to be.”

It's not hard to find people willing to go on record saying complimentary things about someone, especially in a brotherhood like NFL players. It's a lot more difficult to find someone willing to state their name and be quoted as saying something bad about another player or coach.

I have a personal experience to share that provides a good demonstration of this phenomena. I once met a person, Clint Didier, who played with Joe Theismann when they were both with the Redskins, and he had nothing good to say about him, called him an A-hole, claimed that he was very disliked by his teammates. But none of them would come out and complain about him or say anything in public.

I don't know about Russell's physical condition or if improving it will improve his quarterback play. I doubt if a more fit Russell is going to help him break tackles or get out of sacks that he otherwise wouldn't have. Like Yogi Berra once said: "90% of the game is mental, and the other half is physical"

[NorthHawk]

If people felt differently about him, there would be at some point a no comment answer or something like that, but I haven't heard one, yet about his work ethic or desire to win. I have heard about his catch phrases and how hokey they are, but nothing regarding his training, studying or on field efforts.

[RiverDog]

If people felt differently about him, there would be at some point a no comment answer or something like that, but I haven't heard one, yet about his work ethic or desire to win. I have heard about his catch phrases and how hokey they are, but nothing regarding his training, studying or on field efforts.

If his work ethic and desire to win is as fierce as you claim, then why is he having to embark on a diet and new training regimen to lose weight? Isn't that an admission to having been out of shape in at least the past year, if not longer?

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

If people felt differently about him, there would be at some point a no comment answer or something like that, but I haven't heard one, yet about his work ethic or desire to win. I have heard about his catch phrases and how hokey they are, but nothing regarding his training, studying or on field efforts.

If his work ethic and desire to win is as fierce as you claim, then why is he having to embark on a diet and new training regimen to lose weight? Isn't that an admission to having been out of shape in at least the past year, if not longer?

I would have thought his team would have a better record than 5-12 if his training, studying, and on field efforts were up to snuff. If he wants to be held in elite company, something has to change.

[Aseahawkfan]

If his work ethic and desire to win is as fierce as you claim, then why is he having to embark on a diet and new training regimen to lose weight? Isn't that an admission to having been out of shape in at least the past year, if not longer?

Not really. I know you don't listen to Russ much, but Russ tried to gain weight earlier in his career to make up for his size, so he could take hits better. He purposefully bulked lifting weights and dieting to gain weight. It may have reached a point where he has bulked up too much and lost some of his speed, so he is changing his diet and exercise program from more muscle and size to less muscle and size to be able to move better. Athletes like Russ have plans for weight management. His plan has changed. It makes sense at this point as he might need to accept some loss of muscle and size to regain some of his mobility. Given his injuries, the increased size has not been protecting him from the hits and injuries.

[c_hawkbob]

If people felt differently about him, there would be at some point a no comment answer or something like that, but I haven't heard one, yet about his work ethic or desire to win. I have heard about his catch phrases and how hokey they are, but nothing regarding his training, studying or on field efforts.

If his work ethic and desire to win is as fierce as you claim, then why is he having to embark on a diet and new training regimen to lose weight? Isn't that an admission to having been out of shape in at least the past year, if not longer?

No, I'd say it's an indication of a change in direction wrt his conditioning. I'd say his gains in mass and muscle were intentional, part of his vision of how he wanted to approach his job. Last year was 100% "let Russ cook". Hackett gave him carte blanche and hitched his wagon to Russ, sink or swim. Now there's a new HC in Peyton that has taken back control of the reigns and Russ is for better or worse, on a new course. I don't think the effort is any less than it has ever been.

[RiverDog]

If his work ethic and desire to win is as fierce as you claim, then why is he having to embark on a diet and new training regimen to lose weight? Isn't that an admission to having been out of shape in at least the past year, if not longer?

Not really. I know you don't listen to Russ much, but Russ tried to gain weight earlier in his career to make up for his size, so he could take hits better. He purposefully bulked lifting weights and dieting to gain weight. It may have reached a point where he has bulked up too much and lost some of his speed, so he is changing his diet and exercise program from more muscle and size to less muscle and size to be able to move better. Athletes like Russ have plans for weight management. His plan has changed. It makes sense at this point as he might need to accept some loss of muscle and size to regain some of his mobility. Given his injuries, the increased size has not been protecting him from the hits and injuries.

I don't know if I buy that, especially someone with Russell's physique, which at 5'10" and 205lbs, was already bordering on obesity. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a person who is even by a professional athlete's standards overweight to be intentionally bulking up, especially a quarterback like Russell whose game depends largely on his mobility. If it were anyone else, I'd say that's a convenient excuse for overeating and not getting enough exercise.

Honest question: Do you know of any other NFL quarterback who intentionally put on weight so they could withstand hits better?

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't know if I buy that, especially someone with Russell's physique, which at 5'10" and 205lbs, was already bordering on obesity. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a person who is even by a professional athlete's standards overweight to be intentionally bulking up, especially a quarterback like Russell whose game depends largely on his mobility. If it were anyone else, I'd say that's a convenient excuse for overeating and not getting enough exercise.

Honest question: Do you know of any other NFL quarterback who intentionally put on weight so they could withstand hits better?

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Wilson
[/url] More current and accurate listed weight.

I don't pay attention to any other QBs much. I know Russ said this is what he was doing multiple times during interviews and such. He was up to around 215 to 220, not 205. Russ is only obese using the BMI, which doesn't apply to athletes who carry a lot more muscle very well. If you saw Russ's pics, he looked in shape at 215 to 220. Muscular, lean, and in shape. Not DK Metcalf, but definitely in shape by any standards other than super athlete. That weight may have been too high for him at his height and hurt his mobility. There is a point of diminishing returns to size gains on a smaller frame.

Russ didn't work well with Hackett's offense and Hackett running the team. Simple as that. We'll see if he can get his mojo back with Payton. I never doubt Russ's work ethic. Kid is a hard worker and always will be.

Other athlete I've seen purposefully put on size was Michael Jordan. Michael started lifting weights and adding muscle because of the beating he was receiving from the Detroit Pistons. They used to punch him, beat him up, knock him down because he was a slim guy when he first entered the league. So he bulked up to 220 at 6'6^ before the end of his career to deal with the physical punishment that teams were inflicting on him as part of The Jordan Defense.

Not much different than other workout programs for different players who have to maintain different weights assessing their physical condition over time. Brady was a conditioning freak, but he didn't emphasize putting on much muscle, though he added more than he started with. But he was never very mobile.

I imagine you looked around, you'd find plenty of NFL players either having to put on weight or take it off to deal with some aspect of the game. I see it most with O and D line because they either come in sloppy or too small after an offseason and have to bulk up or slim down depending on what they've been doing. You see now and again with RBs too. It just depends on what your natural predilection is and what point you're at in your career. It's obvious Russ is at a point where the added size is not helping him, so he's slimming down. I guess we'll see soon enough if that helps.

[RiverDog]

I imagine you looked around, you'd find plenty of NFL players either having to put on weight or take it off to deal with some aspect of the game. I see it most with O and D line because they either come in sloppy or too small after an offseason and have to bulk up or slim down depending on what they've been doing. You see now and again with RBs too. It just depends on what your natural predilection is and what point you're at in your career. It's obvious Russ is at a point where the added size is not helping him, so he's slimming down. I guess we'll see soon enough if that helps.

Plenty of players, yes, but in most cases, it's adding weight/muscle mass to help their play, not to make them less susceptible to injury. Plenty of quarterbacks, no. I have never heard of a quarterback intentionally putting on weight/muscle mass so he can better absorb hits or prevent injuries or for any other reason, and apparently, you haven't either.

The most common injuries for quarterbacks involve the shoulder/collar bone, biceps, and elbows, and obviously, more weight or muscle mass isn't going to do anything to prevent those kinds of injuries. So, what about other common injuries, like those to lower extremities, like knees, hamstrings, etc? How about rib or pectoral injuries? Fit and in shape, yes, particularly as it applies to muscle strains. But that doesn't mean that adding extra weight to a frame that's already well over that of a normal adult will prevent those kinds of injuries.

I'm not being sarcastic, it's an honest question as I can't find anything that would justify adding weight/muscle mass to prevent injuries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5825334/

I understand that you can't apply a standard BMI chart to professional athletes. But 35-40 lbs over the normal weight of an average adult, or well over 15% of their body weight, is a lot to rationalize by simply being an athlete. To give you an idea, Trevor Lawrence isn't what I would consider skinny, but he weighs the same as Russell yet is 7" taller. And yes, Russ looks in shape, muscular and all, but he's not a power lifter, he's a quarterback that's heavily dependent on quickness and mobility.

Until someone can show me an example of another NFL quarterback who employed this logic or provide some type of medical evidence other than their own personal opinion, I'll remain deeply skeptical of this theory. I wonder if Russell researched this idea of his, and if so, what or who was it that he referenced. If it were anyone else, I'd be calling BS.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Some of y'all are carrying the torch for Russell Wilson like nothing has changed. His last couple of seasons in Seattle showed that something has changed. A 5-12 season in Denver showed something has changed. If he's still working, that's great, but it doesn't mean much if he can't translate that into on-field success. I don't know if it's focus or preparation. I don't know if he's giving more attention to his off-the-field endeavors, but it's something. The QB is the top spot on the field. Usually, as the QB goes, so goes the team. The team and the game have to be first priority. Yeah, yeah, I'm not around him on the daily, so my speculation about his priorities is exactly that; speculation, but I it's a plausible explanation to some degree in his drop in play.

[NorthHawk]

Some of y'all are carrying the torch for Russell Wilson like nothing has changed. His last couple of seasons in Seattle showed that something has changed. A 5-12 season in Denver showed something has changed. If he's still working, that's great, but it doesn't mean much if he can't translate that into on-field success. I don't know if it's focus or preparation. I don't know if he's giving more attention to his off-the-field endeavors, but it's something. The QB is the top spot on the field. Usually, as the QB goes, so goes the team. The team and the game have to be first priority. Yeah, yeah, I'm not around him on the daily, so my speculation about his priorities is exactly that; speculation, but I it's a plausible explanation to some degree in his drop in play.

The reason it's a point of interest is we don't know the cause of his fall off in play. Maybe he's just physically lost that edge that's required to be one of the best QBs. Maybe it's just his surroundings. We didn't have a good team around him his last few years here, and Denver was a hugely dysfunctional team last year until Hackett was fired. They then started to play better. But it remains to be seen if Payton can salvage Wilson's career. Some of us think he can and hope he does and others have doubts. It's why it's a topic of discussion.

[RiverDog]

Some of y'all are carrying the torch for Russell Wilson like nothing has changed. His last couple of seasons in Seattle showed that something has changed. A 5-12 season in Denver showed something has changed. If he's still working, that's great, but it doesn't mean much if he can't translate that into on-field success. I don't know if it's focus or preparation. I don't know if he's giving more attention to his off-the-field endeavors, but it's something. The QB is the top spot on the field. Usually, as the QB goes, so goes the team. The team and the game have to be first priority. Yeah, yeah, I'm not around him on the daily, so my speculation about his priorities is exactly that; speculation, but I it's a plausible explanation to some degree in his drop in play.

The reason it's a point of interest is we don't know the cause of his fall off in play. Maybe he's just physically lost that edge that's required to be one of the best QBs. Maybe it's just his surroundings. We didn't have a good team around him his last few years here, and Denver was a hugely dysfunctional team last year until Hackett was fired. They then started to play better. But it remains to be seen if Payton can salvage Wilson's career. Some of us think he can and hope he does and others have doubts. It's why it's a topic of discussion.

Denver was hugely dysfunctional on offense. Their defense was outstanding, ranked 7th in total yards. Had their offense scored just 20 points in each game, which still would have had them in the bottom 1/3 of the league in scoring, their record would have been 12-5, but as it was, they were dead last in scoring, less than 17 ppg.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

The reason it's a point of interest is we don't know the cause of his fall off in play. Maybe he's just physically lost that edge that's required to be one of the best QBs. Maybe it's just his surroundings. We didn't have a good team around him his last few years here, and Denver was a hugely dysfunctional team last year until Hackett was fired. They then started to play better. But it remains to be seen if Payton can salvage Wilson's career. Some of us think he can and hope he does and others have doubts. It's why it's a topic of discussion.

Denver was hugely dysfunctional on offense. Their defense was outstanding, ranked 7th in total yards. Had their offense scored just 20 points in each game, which still would have had them in the bottom 1/3 of the league in scoring, their record would have been 12-5, but as it was, they were dead last in scoring, less than 17 ppg.

I think he can and hope he does as well. Surroundings would factor in as well as team talent. I still don't get it. This was a guy who transferred late from NC State to Wisconsin with one year of eligibility left, and he promptly learned the playbook, became team captain, and he led them to the Rose Bowl. He then wins the job from a guy who at least had been in the league and started a handful of NFL games. How does he go from that to falling flat on his face in Denver? I keep saying it, but something is off with him these last few years. That's where I was going with carrying the torch for him. The guy I remember coming into the league with the fire and focus doesn't seem to have that at the same level he used to.

[NorthHawk]

I don't think it was a matter of Wilson learning the playbook, rather it was the Offense not being ready to play. When the HC is an Offensive HC and the Offense isn't ready to play, it is probably the HC that's the problem. Hackett might be a great OC, but just not HC material or not ready for it. Some coaches are like that and with having control of all facets of the team, it might be he wasn't as organized as he should have been or not strict enough with how he wanted the Offense to be run. Maybe a bit of both, maybe just a bad match with he and Wilson. Whatever it was, the results weren't good.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I don't think it was a matter of Wilson learning the playbook, rather it was the Offense not being ready to play. When the HC is an Offensive HC and the Offense isn't ready to play, it is probably the HC that's the problem. Hackett might be a great OC, but just not HC material or not ready for it. Some coaches are like that and with having control of all facets of the team, it might be he wasn't as organized as he should have been or not strict enough with how he wanted the Offense to be run. Maybe a bit of both, maybe just a bad match with he and Wilson. Whatever it was, the results weren't good.

I'm saying he went from being the guy that jumped in to two new situations and started excelling almost immediately to the debacle in Denver last season. Should there be some bumps at a new start, sure, but a 10-year QB who has a history of excelling in new situations doesn't match up well with what happened last season. Wilson wanted to be the guy when it came to offense, so I can't put this all on coaching and the team. He's the not the sole reason, but he is part of the reason.

[NorthHawk]

But we don't know about the other players around him. Were they all on the same page? In college they were, but Denver didn't look like it to me until Hackett was fired. Then there was a little improvement.

[RiverDog]

In defense of Russell, Hackett made some huge boneheaded game management errors last year, starting with their season opener against us. If you will recall, Denver was down by 1 with 1:11 to go. They complete a pass that gets them to the Seattle 46, leaving them with a 4th and 5 and the clock running. Hackett, with all 3 timeouts, waits until the clock runs all the way down to 20 seconds before calling a timeout, then rather than trusting his $250M quarterback to convert on a roughly 50% odds of success, he attempts what would have been, at sea level in an outdoor stadium, a record long 64 yard kick.

Properly managed, the Broncos should have immediately called a timeout with about a minute to go, then give it their best shot on 4th and 5, and if they're successful, they'd have a full set of downs, two timeouts, and the ball sitting at or inside the Hawk's 40 with a little under a minute to go. That's a lot better odds than a 64 yd fg at sea level.

During that first game, the Broncos had two delay of game penalties, one inside the 10 that arguable cost them points. This was almost certainly due to Russell's not playing a single snap during the preseason, extremely unusual for a quarterback playing for a new team. Hell, even Tom Brady played in the preseason. Regardless of whether or not Russell wanted to play, that's a coaching decision that shouldn't be left up to the player. Russell needed the work and the coaches needed to fine tune the mechanics of their play calling.

Those are problems that won't, or shouldn't, exist with Sean Payton, who looks like he's going to lay down the law for Russell and the rest of the offense. The Broncos lost 3 games in overtime and two others by 1 in regulation. That's why I don't want to bet against Payton being able to 'fix' Russell. Unless the rest of the team regresses, it's not going to take a miracle to turn things around.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

But we don't know about the other players around him. Were they all on the same page? In college they were, but Denver didn't look like it to me until Hackett was fired. Then there was a little improvement.

We don't, but that's why I said Wilson isn't the sole reason. He is accountable for some of the drop in his play. There's no way around that.

[Aseahawkfan]

Plenty of players, yes, but in most cases, it's adding weight/muscle mass to help their play, not to make them less susceptible to injury. Plenty of quarterbacks, no. I have never heard of a quarterback intentionally putting on weight/muscle mass so he can better absorb hits or prevent injuries or for any other reason, and apparently, you haven't either.

The most common injuries for quarterbacks involve the shoulder/collar bone, biceps, and elbows, and obviously, more weight or muscle mass isn't going to do anything to prevent those kinds of injuries. So, what about other common injuries, like those to lower extremities, like knees, hamstrings, etc? How about rib or pectoral injuries? Fit and in shape, yes, particularly as it applies to muscle strains. But that doesn't mean that adding extra weight to a frame that's already well over that of a normal adult will prevent those kinds of injuries.

I'm not being sarcastic, it's an honest question as I can't find anything that would justify adding weight/muscle mass to prevent injuries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5825334/

I understand that you can't apply a standard BMI chart to professional athletes. But 35-40 lbs over the normal weight of an average adult, or well over 15% of their body weight, is a lot to rationalize by simply being an athlete. To give you an idea, Trevor Lawrence isn't what I would consider skinny, but he weighs the same as Russell yet is 7" taller. And yes, Russ looks in shape, muscular and all, but he's not a power lifter, he's a quarterback that's heavily dependent on quickness and mobility.

Until someone can show me an example of another NFL quarterback who employed this logic or provide some type of medical evidence other than their own personal opinion, I'll remain deeply skeptical of this theory. I wonder if Russell researched this idea of his, and if so, what or who was it that he referenced. If it were anyone else, I'd be calling BS.

It's not a theory. It's what Russ said and did. There are plenty of people that add size to avoid injury. It's very common to add muscle and size in certain sports to avoid injury because you are competing against larger athletes.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. This type of information is known. It's not even something people involved in strength training and physical sports even spend any time thinking about. You just plan for it and do it.

That article is meaningless. Russ did it because he was a smaller QB and felt he had to add size to extend his career and endure hits was his reasoning. He stated in more than a few interviews earlier on his career.

So no theory was stated. It just what Russ did because he felt it was necessary to gain some size to take hits better from 250 to 300 lb. lineman as a smaller QB.

[RiverDog]

Plenty of players, yes, but in most cases, it's adding weight/muscle mass to help their play, not to make them less susceptible to injury. Plenty of quarterbacks, no. I have never heard of a quarterback intentionally putting on weight/muscle mass so he can better absorb hits or prevent injuries or for any other reason, and apparently, you haven't either.

The most common injuries for quarterbacks involve the shoulder/collar bone, biceps, and elbows, and obviously, more weight or muscle mass isn't going to do anything to prevent those kinds of injuries. So, what about other common injuries, like those to lower extremities, like knees, hamstrings, etc? How about rib or pectoral injuries? Fit and in shape, yes, particularly as it applies to muscle strains. But that doesn't mean that adding extra weight to a frame that's already well over that of a normal adult will prevent those kinds of injuries.

I'm not being sarcastic, it's an honest question as I can't find anything that would justify adding weight/muscle mass to prevent injuries.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5825334/

I understand that you can't apply a standard BMI chart to professional athletes. But 35-40 lbs over the normal weight of an average adult, or well over 15% of their body weight, is a lot to rationalize by simply being an athlete. To give you an idea, Trevor Lawrence isn't what I would consider skinny, but he weighs the same as Russell yet is 7" taller. And yes, Russ looks in shape, muscular and all, but he's not a power lifter, he's a quarterback that's heavily dependent on quickness and mobility.

Until someone can show me an example of another NFL quarterback who employed this logic or provide some type of medical evidence other than their own personal opinion, I'll remain deeply skeptical of this theory. I wonder if Russell researched this idea of his, and if so, what or who was it that he referenced. If it were anyone else, I'd be calling BS.

It's not a theory. It's what Russ said and did. There are plenty of people that add size to avoid injury. It's very common to add muscle and size in certain sports to avoid injury because you are competing against larger athletes.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing. This type of information is known. It's not even something people involved in strength training and physical sports even spend any time thinking about. You just plan for it and do it.

That article is meaningless. Russ did it because he was a smaller QB and felt he had to add size to extend his career and endure hits was his reasoning. He stated in more than a few interviews earlier on his career.

So no theory was stated. It just what Russ did because he felt it was necessary to gain some size to take hits better from 250 to 300 lb. lineman as a smaller QB.

If Russell is not using some type of survey or study to base his workout/diet on, or at least referencing a current or former player that has embarked on this regime of his and experienced positive results, then it's a textbook definition of a theory unsupported by any kind of factual information.

And as I keep saying, we're not talking about "people" or "athletes" or "certain sports". We're talking specifically about NFL quarterbacks and professional football, where the most common injuries to quarterbacks are to the shoulder, neck, collarbone, elbow, and knees. You're going to have to show me how adding extra weight reduces those types of injuries. How is extra weight going to prevent a torn labrum ala Drew Brees? Will it prevent tendonitis in the elbow ala Mathew Stafford? A clavicle fracture ala Aaron Rodgers? An ACL tear ala Kyler Murray? If it's as well known and common as you say it is, you shouldn't have too much difficulty finding a credible source to reference. Otherwise, I stand by what I said.

I don't accept what Russell says simply because he said it. In my eyes, the man has lost a ton of credibility over the past few years. Whether it's true or not, he'll say whatever it is that he thinks his audience wants to hear. In other words, I wouldn't put it past him if he unintentionally gained a few pounds that he would tell his fans that it was all part of his master plan. I'm not saying that's what he's done, just that I don't trust him to be honest anymore. I want to see some type of evidence, a credible study, other QB's that have done what he claims to be doing, something that supports his contention, and until then, I'll consider it as nothing but a bunch of lip service.

[NorthHawk]

There were concerns with Bryce Young's weight and whether he would go 1st overall because of it.
Here's a comment from before the draft.

Mike Garafolo of NFL Network recently revealed that the sense he got in Tuscaloosa during the pro day was that the height wasn’t as much of a concern as his weight.

One of the big takeaways from Bryce Young’s pro day is evaluators noted how high his release is and that he stands tall in his delivery. Doesn’t bend much. Watching him live, he throws bigger than he is. Concerns with his measurables are about weight, not height.

— Mike Garafolo (@MikeGarafolo) March 23, 2023

So it is something that team personnel consider in their QB and in keeping him healthy.
Clearly QBs get banged around a lot and if a QB was 6 ft tall and 175lbs, it would be a real concern, so it's common sense that many would want to add weight to take the punishment better than a lighter QB would.
With an extra game on the schedule, it becomes even more important.

[RiverDog]

So it is something that team personnel consider in their QB and in keeping him healthy.
Clearly QBs get banged around a lot and if a QB was 6 ft tall and 175lbs, it would be a real concern, so it's common sense that many would want to add weight to take the punishment better than a lighter QB would.
With an extra game on the schedule, it becomes even more important.

Once again, we're talking about a quarterback that is already 5'10", 215 lbs, not 6'0" 175lbs.

And I still want to know specifically what quarterback injuries extra weight is supposed to prevent and if there have been any QB's that have intentionally put on weight to prevent them. Trevor Lawrence is 6'6", 213 lbs. Shouldn't he be putting on weight?

[NorthHawk]

Lawrence probably should as well.
The fact is it's a viewpoint around the league that smaller or lighter QBs take more punishment than heavier ones.
It's simple physics. If you throw a medicine ball at a 6 year old, it will do more damage than if it was thrown to a 15 year old. Now consider getting hit with the medicine ball 8 to 10 times a game. It takes its toll.
Therefore, it's not a stretch for a QB to decide to put on more weight, or the team encourage it, and more so if they are also considered short in stature.

[RiverDog]

Lawrence probably should as well.
The fact is it's a viewpoint around the league that smaller or lighter QBs take more punishment than heavier ones.
It's simple physics. If you throw a medicine ball at a 6 year old, it will do more damage than if it was thrown to a 15 year old. Now consider getting hit with the medicine ball 8 to 10 times a game. It takes its toll.
Therefore, it's not a stretch for a QB to decide to put on more weight, or the team encourage it, and more so if they are also considered short in stature.

Alright, for the sake of argument, I'll accept your theory that a heavier quarterback is less likely to suffer injury if he weighs more than the standard BMI for an average adult.

I still wouldn't believe Russell, that he says that he planned on gaining weight. I think it is just as likely that he came up with it as an explanation for unintended weight gain as a means to keep fans from criticizing him and to maintain his image as a hard working athlete who is constantly trying to keep in shape and improve his game. Remember, this is the same guy who claims to routinely go on 10-day cleanse diets to "give my body a break" even though dieticians say that doing so has no health benefit whatsoever:

Russell Wilson says he stopped eating certain foods for 10 days to give his body a break. During an appearance on Jimmy Kimmel Live with his wife Ciara, the 33-year-old quarterback for the Denver Broncos said that he often did a 10-day challenge in which he stopped eating dairy, gluten, and red meat.

Dietitians also say that following a diet for only 10 days won't help Russell Wilson's health in any way. A person would likely have to eat the same way for months or even years before their health would improve.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/health-and- ... -challenge

And BTW, if Trevor Lawrence had the same BMI as Russell, he'd weigh 265 pounds. Are you suggesting that he should get up to that weight in order to avoid injury?

[NorthHawk]

And BTW, if Trevor Lawrence had the same BMI as Russell, he'd weigh 265 pounds. Are you suggesting that he should get up to that weight in order to avoid injury?

Strictly from an absorbing the hits point of view, yes, but it's about the whole package of a player.

I mentioned earlier that one of the options that Tua in Miami was considering is adding weight - just to be able to take more punishment and he's already 6-1, 225lbs.
It might not happen though because it was his falling awkwardly that seems to be his issue with head injuries. So now he's learning breakfall techniques. But the point is adding weight was under consideration.
So it's not uncommon in the NFL to try adding weight at QB to try to avoid injuries.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

There's bulking up and there's getting fat. Not sure how much of each of these Russ did. Also, there's a limit to how much muscle mass he should gain based on his physique before it starts affecting his mobility and mechanics. This another instance of defending him when another plausible explanation is he's been slipping on his training regimen and diet. If he is putting on more (good) weight to absorb blows better and decrease injuries, then he needs to be prepared to compensate for the lack of or lessened mobility via staying in pocket and getting the ball out quicker. Adding weight can't be both the solution and the problem.

I would think the extra mass would help absorb blows and maybe make hitting the ground a little better. Perhaps it helps stabilize joints, but I don't have any expertise there.

Bree, Rogers, P. Manning, and Brady obviously stayed in shape and I'm sure they weight trained, but they never bulked up. They also got rid of the ball very quickly. Rothlisberger was a big dude; he seemed pretty strong since he could still stand up and deliver a throw with a defender hanging onto him. He also had his share of injuries, too, so I don't know how much his extra mass helped him avoid injuries or what types of injuries it helped him avoid.

I don't think Lawrence should, but he's got 7"-8" of height on Russel; that's way more room to handle a little more weight and not affect his play.

[RiverDog]

This another instance of defending him when another plausible explanation is he's been slipping on his training regimen and diet.

That's the point I'm trying to make. I don't think that anyone in this forum will deny that Russell is extremely conscious of his image to the point of it being an obsession with him. Again, for the sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that he did slip a bit and put on a few unintentional pounds. How do you think he would explain it? Saying that it's part of his plan to reduce injuries is exactly what he'd say. He's going to say whatever it is that he thinks his fans want to hear regardless of whether or not it's true.

Like I said before, Russell has lost a ton of credibility in recent years. He's come up with some of the most bizarre, nonsensical claims, like doing knee highs and stretching exercises for 4 hours of their 8-hour flight to London while his teammates slept. Do any of you actually believe such a pile of baloney?

This is off topic, but our discussion reminds me of an incident decades ago with former Redskins QB Sonny Jorgenson, who one time reported to camp with a noticeable pot belly. When the reporters began to pester him about it, not accepting his answers and refusing to let the issue die, Jorgenson finally had enough and said "Listen, I don't know of anybody who throws a football with their stomach!" It ended the questioning.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's simply not true. Just last year, it was revealed by Sherman and Beast that they don't even have Russell's personal phone number, that he makes them go through his manager. That doesn't sound like "always the same dude" to me.

No, it is true.

You seem to forget about the articles implying other players in the Seahawks locker room were saying some players were saying he didn't act "black" enough. I love how you conveniently forget the earlier articles where Russ was accused of such garbage as well as accusations by Golden Tate that he didn't do enough to dispel the rumors Golden cheated with his wife. Russ been taking small shots from certain teammates since he arrived, but it only found it's way into the press after he left Seattle and teammates felt they could take shots at him and the media found they could get clicks and ratings bagging on The Robotic Golden Boy. Then he played terrible and the attacks continued. Russ didn't do anything to invite them other than be himself. I would say Russ is very much the same dude. I don't think he ever hung out with Marshawn or Richard and I can see why: they don't have the same background or have compatible personalities.

Marshawn is getting tickets for falling asleep on the side of the road driving his Ferrari. Marshawn is kicking it with his homies partying. Richard is getting busted for domestic assault with his wife, talking mad smack, and I've never heard him talk about church or much else of that kind. Why do you think they even called each other much?

Lockett still has Russ's number. As far as I know DK still talks with Russ. Russ was QB. He mostly hung with the offense. He was a very church oriented guy and led prayer groups with the team for those that were also on that page.

You keep trying to make stuff up while you don't even actually listen to Russ or pay attention to who he hangs out with. No one ever said Russ was some guy open to the entire team. Russ was initially very close to Coach Carroll as he called him. Russ was and still is a very private individual, a company man that usually sides very closely with the coach and team, and focused on his own approach to the game. As listed he does stuff like get his receivers together to do offseason workouts or welcome new receivers to the team like he did with Greg Olsen. But Russ isn't some guy you hear about hanging with the boys at the club or going out and picking up women or getting drunk with the boys.

Russ is the same guy's he's always been. He's just not the guy you seem to think he was or should be, which he never was. But then again you don't pay very close attention to what players say or how they carry themselves or who they hang out with. You're looking to stoke conversation using gossipy rag articles that are the NFL equivalent of the National Enquirer.

As someone who has followed Russ a great deal closer than you apparently, Russ is exactly the same guy now as he was when he entered the league. Same robotic catchphrases and corny public image. Same highly private individual not interested in conflict. He goes about his business doing what he feels he needs to do to succeed. He is still towing the company line in Denver and working hard to get things done as he always has.

About the only thing I'd say about Russ is he may have spread himself too thin, but then again I don't know that for sure either because I don't live with him or know him personally.

[Aseahawkfan]

I know what I personally think happened in Denver. But I have about the same proof as everyone else: nothing but conjecture, hearsay, and observation.

My opinion is Russ and the offense never got their timing down. Russ never quite grasped Hackett's offense well enough to make it shine. The O-line was injured early and he was under pressure while working to stay in the pocket and grasp Hackett's offense and failing. Hackett never adjusted much because Russ and Hackett wanted to let Russ stay in the pocket more and throw. It also did not help that their running game was derailed by injury as well to their main RB and the backup RB couldn't handle the load, so he was cut. It was a very down year for Denver and Russ whether it was the early injuries to the O-line or general lack of ability of the QB and head coach to execute the offensive game plan.

As someone that predicted before the season started that Nathaniel Hackett wasn't going to last long, I saw some of these problems coming. Did I expect Russ to fall off as much as he did? Nope. Did I expect Russ to fall off quite a bit and Denver to have problems, yes, big time. Nathaniel Hackett said in an interview he was going to let his players play and follow the hot hand meaning the players who are doing well. I have never heard a quality coach say this. Most quality coaches are hyper controlling and have a clear plan on both sides of the ball. They often try to control every aspect of the team. Even a player's coach like Pete Carroll doesn't follow the "hot hand." Pete tries to control as much of the game as possible and take corrective action if he is able. I do not believe Nathaniel Hackett knew how to take the necessary corrective action to fix the team's problems and Russ was not able to be the Peyton Manning type of player he at times seems to want to be. Russ needs coaching and input from the coach to run the offense. Hackett wasn't doing a good job providing it.

Russ should be in a very different situation with Sean Payton. If Russ has anything left in the tank, Payton will get it out of him. If Russ truly is cooked, they'll know this year because Payton is a real high performing NFL head coach. He has a clear vision for both sides of the ball and knows how to take corrective action to fix problems with the team if they are fixable.

That's how I see it. Russ was part of the problem last year. I think he bit off more than he can chew trying to play ball the way Hackett wanted it played and the way he likes to play and it didn't work. He's got a better coach this year. So it's sink or swim time. We'll see which way he goes.

[Aseahawkfan]

If Russell is not using some type of survey or study to base his workout/diet on, or at least referencing a current or former player that has embarked on this regime of his and experienced positive results, then it's a textbook definition of a theory unsupported by any kind of factual information.

And as I keep saying, we're not talking about "people" or "athletes" or "certain sports". We're talking specifically about NFL quarterbacks and professional football, where the most common injuries to quarterbacks are to the shoulder, neck, collarbone, elbow, and knees. You're going to have to show me how adding extra weight reduces those types of injuries. How is extra weight going to prevent a torn labrum ala Drew Brees? Will it prevent tendonitis in the elbow ala Mathew Stafford? A clavicle fracture ala Aaron Rodgers? An ACL tear ala Kyler Murray? If it's as well known and common as you say it is, you shouldn't have too much difficulty finding a credible source to reference. Otherwise, I stand by what I said.

I don't accept what Russell says simply because he said it. In my eyes, the man has lost a ton of credibility over the past few years. Whether it's true or not, he'll say whatever it is that he thinks his audience wants to hear. In other words, I wouldn't put it past him if he unintentionally gained a few pounds that he would tell his fans that it was all part of his master plan. I'm not saying that's what he's done, just that I don't trust him to be honest anymore. I want to see some type of evidence, a credible study, other QB's that have done what he claims to be doing, something that supports his contention, and until then, I'll consider it as nothing but a bunch of lip service.

No one cares if you accept what Russell says. I'm telling you what he did. You're asking why he gained weight. I'm telling you what he said.

Russell employs a physical trainer, likely a chef, and the like. So he had a plan for his physical training and gaining size was part of that plan. What studies he was basing it on I don't know. I know as someone that lifts, I've read plenty of strength coaches encouraging size and muscle gains to protect from physical harm in certain sports and football is one of those sports.

It sounds like this year they reassessed that plan, perhaps with input from Payton and a new strength and conditioning coach to encourage Russ to get back some of his mobility by dropping weight. Russ was pretty obviously not fat or out of shape by any normal human standards.

[RiverDog]

If Russell is not using some type of survey or study to base his workout/diet on, or at least referencing a current or former player that has embarked on this regime of his and experienced positive results, then it's a textbook definition of a theory unsupported by any kind of factual information.

And as I keep saying, we're not talking about "people" or "athletes" or "certain sports". We're talking specifically about NFL quarterbacks and professional football, where the most common injuries to quarterbacks are to the shoulder, neck, collarbone, elbow, and knees. You're going to have to show me how adding extra weight reduces those types of injuries. How is extra weight going to prevent a torn labrum ala Drew Brees? Will it prevent tendonitis in the elbow ala Mathew Stafford? A clavicle fracture ala Aaron Rodgers? An ACL tear ala Kyler Murray? If it's as well known and common as you say it is, you shouldn't have too much difficulty finding a credible source to reference. Otherwise, I stand by what I said.

I don't accept what Russell says simply because he said it. In my eyes, the man has lost a ton of credibility over the past few years. Whether it's true or not, he'll say whatever it is that he thinks his audience wants to hear. In other words, I wouldn't put it past him if he unintentionally gained a few pounds that he would tell his fans that it was all part of his master plan. I'm not saying that's what he's done, just that I don't trust him to be honest anymore. I want to see some type of evidence, a credible study, other QB's that have done what he claims to be doing, something that supports his contention, and until then, I'll consider it as nothing but a bunch of lip service.

No one cares if you accept what Russell says. I'm telling you what he did. You're asking why he gained weight. I'm telling you what he said.

You're telling me what you think he did. You don't know anymore than I do whether his weight gain was intentional or not. And I already know what Russell said. I don't necessarily believe him. Maybe he's telling the truth, maybe he's telling a little white lie.

Russell employs a physical trainer, likely a chef, and the like. So he had a plan for his physical training and gaining size was part of that plan. What studies he was basing it on I don't know. I know as someone that lifts, I've read plenty of strength coaches encouraging size and muscle gains to protect from physical harm in certain sports and football is one of those sports.

If it's the same chef that talked him into that 10 day cleanse, he needs to fire him/her. And for the umpteenth time, we're not talking about football in general. We're talking about quarterbacks. If you've read something that says muscle/weight gain helps protect a quarterback from injury, I honestly would like to see it as my searches don't turn up a damn thing on it.

I'm not doubting your honesty as I believe you when you say that you've read/talked to people that have made that claim. I just want to see something in writing, if there's any research that has been done on the subject. NFL quarterbacks are among the highest paid athletes in the world, so you'd think someone has done some type of research into what factors contribute to them getting injured and what can prevent it.

It sounds like this year they reassessed that plan, perhaps with input from Payton and a new strength and conditioning coach to encourage Russ to get back some of his mobility by dropping weight. Russ was pretty obviously not fat or out of shape by any normal human standards.

Yeah, no kidding they want him to lose some weight. And although I agree that he's in very good physical shape that I'd give my left nut to be in, I wouldn't go so far as to say "by any normal human standards". The "normal standard" BMI for a 5'11", 215 lb 33 year old male is 30, which is considered obese.

[RiverDog]

I know what I personally think happened in Denver. But I have about the same proof as everyone else: nothing but conjecture, hearsay, and observation.

My opinion is Russ and the offense never got their timing down. Russ never quite grasped Hackett's offense well enough to make it shine. The O-line was injured early and he was under pressure while working to stay in the pocket and grasp Hackett's offense and failing. Hackett never adjusted much because Russ and Hackett wanted to let Russ stay in the pocket more and throw. It also did not help that their running game was derailed by injury as well to their main RB and the backup RB couldn't handle the load, so he was cut. It was a very down year for Denver and Russ whether it was the early injuries to the O-line or general lack of ability of the QB and head coach to execute the offensive game plan.

As someone that predicted before the season started that Nathaniel Hackett wasn't going to last long, I saw some of these problems coming. Did I expect Russ to fall off as much as he did? Nope. Did I expect Russ to fall off quite a bit and Denver to have problems, yes, big time. Nathaniel Hackett said in an interview he was going to let his players play and follow the hot hand meaning the players who are doing well. I have never heard a quality coach say this. Most quality coaches are hyper controlling and have a clear plan on both sides of the ball. They often try to control every aspect of the team. Even a player's coach like Pete Carroll doesn't follow the "hot hand." Pete tries to control as much of the game as possible and take corrective action if he is able. I do not believe Nathaniel Hackett knew how to take the necessary corrective action to fix the team's problems and Russ was not able to be the Peyton Manning type of player he at times seems to want to be. Russ needs coaching and input from the coach to run the offense. Hackett wasn't doing a good job providing it.

Russ should be in a very different situation with Sean Payton. If Russ has anything left in the tank, Payton will get it out of him. If Russ truly is cooked, they'll know this year because Payton is a real high performing NFL head coach. He has a clear vision for both sides of the ball and knows how to take corrective action to fix problems with the team if they are fixable.

That's how I see it. Russ was part of the problem last year. I think he bit off more than he can chew trying to play ball the way Hackett wanted it played and the way he likes to play and it didn't work. He's got a better coach this year. So it's sink or swim time. We'll see which way he goes.

I actually think that's a pretty good analysis that I mostly agree with.

I'll also add that Russell didn't take a single snap during preseason, something that is extremely unusual for a quarterback with a new team, and it showed in that first game against us. Denver's offense was constantly late getting to the LOS and took two delay of game penalties, one inside the 10 that arguably cost them points in what was eventually a one point game. Then in their last series, with three timeouts remaining, they had the ball 4th and 5 at the Seahawk 46 with a minute left and the clock running. Hackett waited until there was just 20 seconds left before he decided to call timeout then attempted what would have been the longest FG in NFL history kicked at sea level in an open-air stadium.

IMO Denver's offense was a huge cluster all season long, and IMO Russell and Hackett were equally responsible. It was a disorganized mess. There were times where Russell was using audible code words that were from the Seahawks playbook. That's on both Hackett and Wilson, and shows just how out of sync that offense was. And keep in mind that Russell had one of the longest time to throw stats last season, which was a major factor in his leading the league in sacks taken. It was an issue he had in those last few seasons with us. If he's going to be successful, he's going to have to get rid of the ball quicker.

Those are very fixable problems that some discipline and hard work, something that obviously was missing under Hackett, that an experienced HC like Payton should be able to correct and why I don't want to bet against Russell being able to turn it around.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

And there it is. Still not seeing Russell’s accountability in this. Not you, River.