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by **HumanCockroach** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:17 am

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/23/sport ... uffer.html

Worse trade here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki_Ahman_Green

And here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

by **Agent 86** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:31 am

Zorn76 wrote:Correct me if I am wrong Zorn, but I thought Harvin missed the NFCCG last year? I think he got ruled after the concush against the Saints?

I stand corrected.

And it's nice to know somebody reads my posts from time to time, lol.

LOL, no worries Zorn, I definitely have a list of people who I always enjoy reading posts from.

Also nice to know my brain is still working when it comes to remembering certain things. :lol:

by **RiverDog** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:51 am

The Stouffer trade is a real reach, HC. As I recollect, it only cost us the single first rounder, all that other smoke being complications from a multi player deal involving Kenny Easley that never materialized because he failed his physical. But it's closer to the worst in history than the Branch trade, I'll give you that. Stouffer was horrible, a much worse performer at his position than Branch was at his.

The fact that you're having to dig some 25 years back into our history to find something halfway comparable to the Harvin trade is a testament to this colossal bust of a deal.

by **savvyman** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:45 pm

Well it looks like the market value for an all world class supremely talented "Cancer" is only a sixth round draft pick with conditional up to 4th round.

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/523515570290188288

I would imagine the amount of Money that Harvin will be paid for this year really weighted down any value that the Seahawks could get for him. Most teams do not have $7 million available this year in their salary cap.

by **HumanCockroach** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:03 pm

RiverDog wrote:The Stouffer trade is a real reach, HC. As I recollect, it only cost us the single first rounder, all that other smoke being complications from a multi player deal involving Kenny Easley that never materialized because he failed his physical. But it's closer to the worst in history than the Branch trade, I'll give you that. Stouffer was horrible, a much worse performer at his position than Branch was at his.

The fact that you're having to dig some 25 years back into our history to find something halfway comparable to the Harvin trade is a testament to this colossal bust of a deal.

Read the link, as your memory is wrong and no where did I gloss over the attempted trade of the perennial all pro first ( which wouldn't have in anyway made it "better" as they spent DECADES trying to undo that move, and multiple first round picks to boot). There were THREE picks spent 1st ( higher than Harvin pick) and TWO 5th ( not to mention the decades spent attempting to find that franchise QB. You yourself have lamented in numerous other posts the time spent finding that guy, and HERE is the crux of that particular issue, and you don't even recall what was spent?? How does that work

Stouffer was by FAR a bigger blown trade, and was completed by a GM currently sitting in Canton.

by **savvyman** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:34 pm

It appears that besides the incidents that has been discussed that lead to Harvin's departure - There is a consistency in reports that the Seahawk's locker room was becoming split between the Harvin & Anti-Harvin factions.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/10/18/trading-problem-player-percy-may-create-a-problem-with-marshawn/

>>>>>>The Seahawks apparently traded Percy Harvin in large part because he became a problem in the locker room. But trading him may cause problems in the locker room.

Seahawks running back Marshawyn Lynch, a friend of Harvin’s, indicated on Twitter that he wasn’t happy about it, and according to one report, Lynch’s feelings go beyond just “unhappy.” Manish Mehta of the New York Daily News reports that Lynch almost didn’t get on the team bus for the trip to the airport for Sunday’s game at St. Louis because he was so upset about Harvin getting traded.

That’s a bit surprising considering that if anything, Lynch should be a beneficiary of Harvin leaving: Losing Harvin makes Lynch a more integral part of the Seahawks’ offense. But Lynch isn’t an easy person to keep happy, and his personal friendship with Harvin apparently trumps any benefit of getting the ball more. The Seahawks don’t want Lynch to be unhappy (and in fact just a couple months ago they restructured his contract to make him happy), but Lynch’s unhappiness could become the result of Harvin leaving.

And Lynch isn’t the only player who seems upset about it. Cliff Avril and Bruce Irvin both also indicated on Twitter that they weren’t happy about Harvin leaving.<<<<<<<<

Also:

https://twitter.com/mikefreemanNFL/status/523447999674859520

>>>>>What's becoming clear with Harvin and the Seahawks: there was almost a pro-Percy and anti-Percy rift developing in locker room.<<<<<

by **rottweiler** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:55 pm

savvyman wrote:It appears that besides the incidents that has been discussed that lead to Harvin's departure - There is a consistency in reports that the Seahawk's locker room was becoming split between the Harvin & Anti-Harvin factions.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/10/18/trading-problem-player-percy-may-create-a-problem-with-marshawn/

>>>>>>The Seahawks apparently traded Percy Harvin in large part because he became a problem in the locker room. But trading him may cause problems in the locker room.

Seahawks running back Marshawyn Lynch, a friend of Harvin’s, indicated on Twitter that he wasn’t happy about it, and according to one report, Lynch’s feelings go beyond just “unhappy.” Manish Mehta of the New York Daily News reports that Lynch almost didn’t get on the team bus for the trip to the airport for Sunday’s game at St. Louis because he was so upset about Harvin getting traded.

That’s a bit surprising considering that if anything, Lynch should be a beneficiary of Harvin leaving: Losing Harvin makes Lynch a more integral part of the Seahawks’ offense. But Lynch isn’t an easy person to keep happy, and his personal friendship with Harvin apparently trumps any benefit of getting the ball more. The Seahawks don’t want Lynch to be unhappy (and in fact just a couple months ago they restructured his contract to make him happy), but Lynch’s unhappiness could become the result of Harvin leaving.

And Lynch isn’t the only player who seems upset about it. Cliff Avril and Bruce Irvin both also indicated on Twitter that they weren’t happy about Harvin leaving.<<<<<<<<

Also:

https://twitter.com/mikefreemanNFL/status/523447999674859520

>>>>>What's becoming clear with Harvin and the Seahawks: there was almost a pro-Percy and anti-Percy rift developing in locker room.<<<<<

I think it may have been the same way back in the day when Harvin had to play with the all-eyes-on-me-but-for-some-steeerange-reason-the-sports-media-think-Ah'm-the-best-team-player-ever wonder known as Tim Tebow at the U.Florida.

At any rate, this ain't the end of the world:

I hear Terrell Owens is available. :mrgreen:

by **c_hawkbob** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:07 pm

General Manager John Schneider confirmed Saturday morning the Seahawks have traded Percy Harvin.

"Although this was an extremely difficult decision, we are constantly evaluating our team and believe at this time, that this is in our best interest to move the team forward," Schneider said in a statement released by the team. "We thank Percy for his efforts that contributed to a Super Bowl XLVIII victory and wish him well."

THAT is what seperates the Harvin trade from all the other poor trades in Seahawks history. None of the others, no matter how much less in draft and/or real capital that we lost on the deal benefitted the team anywhere near to this degree. Argue all you want I don't care, you will not ever convince me otherwise.

by **Zorn76** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:38 pm

Hard to believe that anybody could get that attached to a player that really wasn't on the team that long. Lynch, Avril, etc., better put this garbage behind them and play ball. Beast almost not getting on the bus? Geez.

The better sentiment would've been that they stood up for RW and nearly blasted Harvin in the face for his me 1st attitude and interaction with our QB.

F*** this guy.

We're better off without him on any level possible.

by **monkey** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:44 pm

I just wanted to post some random thoughts I have about all of this, in no discernible order, maybe to change the direction of this conversation a bit.

* The original trade for Harvin is clearly one of the worst ever, of that there can be little doubt; yet at the same time, it was a move that made perfect sense in many ways, and wasn't really a total bust either...all those Seahawks players walking around with Super Bowl rings can attest to that. Sure, we may have won the Super Bowl without him, I would say we probably would have, but there is no doubt that his impact (the jet sweeps and the kick return touchdown etc..) helped greatly!
Point is, yes we overpaid, BUT we overpaid in an effort to get a Super Bowl victory. One which we did in fact get.

* I am still blown away by the fact that NO ONE knew what was going on all this time. With the round-the-clock NFL media coverage, I find it amazing that not one person on the team or working with the team let the cat out of the bag.
Sure, the reports are leaking out all over the place NOW, but this thing blindsided EVERYONE..all the so called NFL insiders, all the other players and coaches around the league EVERYONE.
What that tells me, or more precisely, reconfirms is that, Pete and John put a premium on keeping things in the family, and that the players, and people who work for the team, are professional enough, and have enough loyalty to actually be trusted to do just that.
If this had happened in Dallas or New York or, as we are currently seeing in San Francisco, the media would have had a field day with this story LONG before the trade ever actually went down. I'm greatly encouraged by that!

* No doubt there is a strong possibility that the loss of such a legitimate play maker will be a big negative, but it's my belief that the exact opposite is at least equally likely, if not more likely to occur. Let me explain.
Last season, mostly without the aid of Percy Harvin, our offenses identity was all about establishing the run, then using play action to loosen defenses up. You know...smash mouth football. So far this season, we've gone mostly away from that, and instead tried numerous bubble screens, jet weeps, and other types of trickeration. You know...college plays.
It's my belief that the offense will be far better off returning to it's personality; it should help by restoring the tough, attacking mentality Pete wants to team to have, and it should also help cure some of what has been ailing the offensive line as well.
The simple truth is, our offense was better last year WITHOUT Harvin than it has been so far this year. I realize that there could be, and probably are all kinds of mitigating reasons for that, and that there were stretches towards the end of last season where there offense was pretty bad, but the bottom line is, whatever we were doing with Harvin LOOKED better than it actually was.
It certainly didn't help that Harvin kept taking himself out of the game (including on that final drive against Dallas), so that he really was only on the field 60% of the time, but the Harvin experiment just wasn't working.

*There is actually a really good reason that it didn't work. Harvin, for all of his speed, is NOT a deep threat, and not really a great route running true wide either for that matter. If Harvin were able to stretch a defense horizontally the same way that he can vertically, he'd be the hands down, best player in the game...but he cannot. So defenses, once given a little time to game plan, were able to figure out ways to minimize his actual impact, to the point where he actually had more of an impact as a DECOY than as a hybrid WR/RB with the ball in his hands. His ability to stretch the field sideline to sideline did help Lynch find running room in the middle...trouble is,the trade off was that Lynch was getting fewer carries.

*I am REALLY looking forward to seeing the two rookies contribute! I am also really looking forward to, and hoping that, Baldwin gets moved back to the slot where he belongs.
I realize that, the media wants to constantly tell us all that the receiving corps without Harvin is below average, but I completely disagree! I think they are very underrated. I fully expect that Baldwin and Kearse in particular, but Lockette, and the two rookies as well, will outplay the medias expectations by a long ways. I think the value of the speed of Richardson and Lockette in stretching the field horizontally will outweigh the value of Harvin stretching it vertically. I think the value of Kearse and Norwood being strong, big bodied possession receivers will outweigh the value of Percy's ability to break a big gain on a bubble screen. I think that Baldwin's sure handedness, sideline toe tapping, and chemistry with Wilson while playing the slot, will outweigh Harvin's big play potential.

We won't know whether I turn out to be right or not until the season is over of course, but if I had to bet real money, that's where I would bet it. Leaving aside the obvious locker room/chemistry problems, I think that this may turn out to be addition by subtraction. By subtracting the need for Bevell to constantly scheme creative ways to get the ball into Harvin's hands, we can now let Wilson do what he does best...ball distribute! Be the point guard QB he is, and find the open receiver WHOEVER that may be.
No more trying to force the ball into Harvin, no more cutesy offenseive schemes, it's back to tough guy football, and I for one, like this MUCH better, and think that we will probably be much better off!

by **HumanCockroach** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:21 pm

I did read all of that^^^^^^

pretty good insight, though it seemed you kept flip flopping horizontal and vertical ( at least the way I have been taught, lsn'tisn't "vertical" down the field and "horizontal" sideline to sideline?)LOL

by **Hawk Sista** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:55 pm

While I'm disappointed that Percy is a loose cannon & and a locker-room cancer, the worries I have are on the team that remains. Marshawn, Bruce & Cliff tweeting pro Harvin tweets and almost not getting on the team bus???? I was not that freaked about the losses (though I was concerned about how they happened) - this ish right here has the potential to be season-ending stuff. Folks need to know who is signing their pay checks & get on the damn bus!

I don't know what is true and what's rumor, but the "junk" about pro-Harvin camps versus pro-Wilson camps (and apparently Marshawn is not in camp Wilson) has me worried.

by **SalmonBB** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:03 pm

Good move. Not producing like we wanted. Having to run the offense around him, at the expense of running a good offense. Cuts losses against salary cap. Plus a few punches toward his teammates. Good move. Good riddance.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

by **Seahawks4Ever** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:19 pm

As much as I love what Lynch has done for the team, is it really any surprise that he would throw a hissy fit about Harvin being booted from the team?? I mean, with Lynch everyone has had to go around the locker room walking on egg shells.

I also have to wonder if there isn't some jealousy regarding RW with some of the other players. maybe some think he is getting too much of the credit?

Oh, and Bruce Irvin is the WRONG person to be acting all hurt since his contribution since he was drafted has been spotty at best.

by **c_hawkbob** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:59 pm

Hawk Sista wrote:While I'm disappointed that Percy is a loose cannon & and a locker-room cancer, the worries I have are on the team that remains. Marshawn, Bruce & Cliff tweeting pro Harvin tweets and almost not getting on the team bus???? I was not that freaked about the losses (though I was concerned about how they happened) - this ish right here has the potential to be season-ending stuff. Folks need to know who is signing their pay checks & get on the damn bus!

I don't know what is true and what's rumor, but the "junk" about pro-Harvin camps versus pro-Wilson camps (and apparently Marshawn is not in camp Wilson) has me worried.

I hope it's friendship and not anything so divisive as 'this camp' or 'that camp', but if it is I expect (and hope) to see Marshawn, Cliff, Bruce and/or whoever is not 100% "All In" gone by next season.

by **Anthony** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:05 pm

Hawk Sista wrote:While I'm disappointed that Percy is a loose cannon & and a locker-room cancer, the worries I have are on the team that remains. Marshawn, Bruce & Cliff tweeting pro Harvin tweets and almost not getting on the team bus???? I was not that freaked about the losses (though I was concerned about how they happened) - this ish right here has the potential to be season-ending stuff. Folks need to know who is signing their pay checks & get on the damn bus!

I don't know what is true and what's rumor, but the "junk" about pro-Harvin camps versus pro-Wilson camps (and apparently Marshawn is not in camp Wilson) has me worried.

well to be honest the only person who supposedly almost did not get on the bus was ML. I said supposedly as we really do not know. AS to the other 2 given all this was on offense they might have even knew all of this and add in all they did was express emotions Harvin was gone they did not say anything to make you believe they were in anyones camp. Also we really do not know if ML was not in the "Wilson" camp or not as that whole Wilson or Harvin camp was not posted as a fact but possibility or in other words guess. All that said if you have a player, a wr that body slams another wr, then hits him, then gets into another fight with another WR, then refuses to go on the last preseason trip, then refuses to go into a game when told, and then almost gets into a fight with your franchise QB when he calls you on not going back in, and you are on this team and you do anything but support your FO and QB then you need to be shown the door. Because no one in their right mind would condone the stuff Harvin did.

by **Hawk Sista** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:14 pm

I've read too many stories...hopefully it is all exaggerated - but I got the sense that it was a divided locker room.

by **NorthHawk** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:23 pm

Of all the transgressions listed, I think the biggest one in Pete's mind is giving up on his team mates when told to go back in.

The whole system that Pete has created (or installed if you will) is predicated on competition. If someone gives up, he can't play here as it is the antithesis of Pete's philosophy.
Competition is the key to getting the best out of his players and if one player gets a free ride after not wanting to compete, then the whole system could be undermined.

He might have thought Harvin was playing games last years with his injury, but with such an extreme in your face example of giving up during a game, it had to be dealt with quickly and severely to ensure his programme did not go off the tracks and make an example to others who might think they could get away with less than 100% effort every practice, and every game.

Good for Pete and John for putting the team ahead of their own egos and admitting the acquisition was a mistake.

by **burrrton** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:26 pm

I haven't read all the replies since I last checked in, but I see there is some debate about the worst trade:

I don't think Harvin takes that crown because he was indeed valuable, or at least *useful*, to us when he was in there.

There's certainly an argument for him based on what he cost us, etc, but at least he was money most of the time he was in there, and not simply some nonsensical "we see something no one else does" type acquisition, which too many of our other high-cost players have been.

by **HumanCockroach** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:30 pm

Ultimately, I suspect these guys will come to the conclusion that this is a business, I mean those same guys watched them cut Red, Clem just this off season, and I seriously doubt they were all "happy" about it. The players knew things weren't working the way they should, and it's been only two days, takes a little time to come to grips with stuff like this. I'm not worried about some sort of huge rift tearing the team apart, at least not right now. Players appreciate talent, and for whatever reason people here can't agree with it, Percy had talent, and lots of it.

If they return to winning, and winning often, this will be forgotten, or at least, have less importance placed on it. Should the offense struggle mightily and lose it will be pointed to as not just a reason but THE reason ( which IMHO is silly and short sighted) we'll see if Kearse and Baldwin can return to their clutch ways, and if Lockette has the ability to expand his role, see what Norwood and Richardson can provide and move on from there. Personally as much as I liked the move at the time, I guess I saw an entirely different role for Harvin than it seems Harvin and Bevell saw for him ( a compliment to Lynch, Not the other way around). Should be interesting to see, if they can find that same magic they bottled last season, and how far it can take them.

I do find it strange that the people it seems Harvin should have gotten along with the best ( other receivers and his qb) were the ones receiving the brunt of his anger, and the ones most upset with his departure for the most part are those that did not work particularily closely with him.

by **savvyman** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:48 pm

Not worried at all about Marshawn. He has always played with more effort and heart than any player in the NFL. I cannot ever recall a time when Marshawn "Checked Out" of a game or even a play. I wouldn't expect Marshawn to start doing this now.

There is nothing unusual about certain Seahawk's players and coaching staff members expressing emotions such as grief or anger over the separation of any teammate. Life goes on from these situations and so will all of the players.

This team always plays better under adversity and with a chip on their shoulder anyway. Look out Rams.

by **NorthHawk** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:08 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:Ultimately, I suspect these guys will come to the conclusion that this is a business, I mean those same guys watched them cut Red, Clem just this off season, and I seriously doubt they were all "happy" about it. The players knew things weren't working the way they should, and it's been only two days, takes a little time to come to grips with stuff like this. I'm not worried about some sort of huge rift tearing the team apart, at least not right now. Players appreciate talent, and for whatever reason people here can't agree with it, Percy had talent, and lots of it.

If they return to winning, and winning often, this will be forgotten, or at least, have less importance placed on it. Should the offense struggle mightily and lose it will be pointed to as not just a reason but THE reason ( which IMHO is silly and short sighted) we'll see if Kearse and Baldwin can return to their clutch ways, and if Lockette has the ability to expand his role, see what Norwood and Richardson can provide and move on from there. Personally as much as I liked the move at the time, I guess I saw an entirely different role for Harvin than it seems Harvin and Bevell saw for him ( a compliment to Lynch, Not the other way around). Should be interesting to see, if they can find that same magic they bottled last season, and how far it can take them.

I do find it strange that the people it seems Harvin should have gotten along with the best ( other receivers and his qb) were the ones receiving the brunt of his anger, and the ones most upset with his departure for the most part are those that did not work particularily closely with him.

From the reports, it seems to me Harvin went after the smaller players - Tait, Baldwin, and reportedly Wilson. If so, he's just a bully who always got away with it in the past. Would he have the cajones to go after Carpenter or Mebane? I somehow doubt it.

by **c_hawkbob** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:10 pm

“Believe everything you hear about Harvin and the Seahawks.” The reported fracas with former Seahawks receiver Golden Tate happened, we’re told, the night before Super Bowl XLVIII. The source said Harvin body slammed Tate at the team hotel, and that players initially feared Harvin broke Tate’s neck.

While there’s a theory making the rounds that the Seahawks feared Harvin would launch a mutiny against quarterback Russell Wilson, there’s a separate theory that Harvin was in danger of being on the wrong end of a Code Red from teammates who had enough of his angry, moody, erratic ways.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -the-jets/

by **rottweiler** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:22 pm

monkey wrote:I just wanted to post some random thoughts I have about all of this, in no discernible order, maybe to change the direction of this conversation a bit.

* The original trade for Harvin is clearly one of the worst ever, of that there can be little doubt; yet at the same time, it was a move that made perfect sense in many ways, and wasn't really a total bust either...all those Seahawks players walking around with Super Bowl rings can attest to that. Sure, we may have won the Super Bowl without him, I would say we probably would have, but there is no doubt that his impact (the jet sweeps and the kick return touchdown etc..) helped greatly!
Point is, yes we overpaid, BUT we overpaid in an effort to get a Super Bowl victory. One which we did in fact get.

* I am still blown away by the fact that NO ONE knew what was going on all this time. With the round-the-clock NFL media coverage, I find it amazing that not one person on the team or working with the team let the cat out of the bag.
Sure, the reports are leaking out all over the place NOW, but this thing blindsided EVERYONE..all the so called NFL insiders, all the other players and coaches around the league EVERYONE.
What that tells me, or more precisely, reconfirms is that, Pete and John put a premium on keeping things in the family, and that the players, and people who work for the team, are professional enough, and have enough loyalty to actually be trusted to do just that.
If this had happened in Dallas or New York or, as we are currently seeing in San Francisco, the media would have had a field day with this story LONG before the trade ever actually went down. I'm greatly encouraged by that!

* No doubt there is a strong possibility that the loss of such a legitimate play maker will be a big negative, but it's my belief that the exact opposite is at least equally likely, if not more likely to occur. Let me explain.
Last season, mostly without the aid of Percy Harvin, our offenses identity was all about establishing the run, then using play action to loosen defenses up. You know...smash mouth football. So far this season, we've gone mostly away from that, and instead tried numerous bubble screens, jet weeps, and other types of trickeration. You know...college plays.
It's my belief that the offense will be far better off returning to it's personality; it should help by restoring the tough, attacking mentality Pete wants to team to have, and it should also help cure some of what has been ailing the offensive line as well.
The simple truth is, our offense was better last year WITHOUT Harvin than it has been so far this year. I realize that there could be, and probably are all kinds of mitigating reasons for that, and that there were stretches towards the end of last season where there offense was pretty bad, but the bottom line is, whatever we were doing with Harvin LOOKED better than it actually was.
It certainly didn't help that Harvin kept taking himself out of the game (including on that final drive against Dallas), so that he really was only on the field 60% of the time, but the Harvin experiment just wasn't working.

*There is actually a really good reason that it didn't work. Harvin, for all of his speed, is NOT a deep threat, and not really a great route running true wide either for that matter. If Harvin were able to stretch a defense horizontally the same way that he can vertically, he'd be the hands down, best player in the game...but he cannot. So defenses, once given a little time to game plan, were able to figure out ways to minimize his actual impact, to the point where he actually had more of an impact as a DECOY than as a hybrid WR/RB with the ball in his hands. His ability to stretch the field sideline to sideline did help Lynch find running room in the middle...trouble is,the trade off was that Lynch was getting fewer carries.

*I am REALLY looking forward to seeing the two rookies contribute! I am also really looking forward to, and hoping that, Baldwin gets moved back to the slot where he belongs.
I realize that, the media wants to constantly tell us all that the receiving corps without Harvin is below average, but I completely disagree! I think they are very underrated. I fully expect that Baldwin and Kearse in particular, but Lockette, and the two rookies as well, will outplay the medias expectations by a long ways. I think the value of the speed of Richardson and Lockette in stretching the field horizontally will outweigh the value of Harvin stretching it vertically. I think the value of Kearse and Norwood being strong, big bodied possession receivers will outweigh the value of Percy's ability to break a big gain on a bubble screen. I think that Baldwin's sure handedness, sideline toe tapping, and chemistry with Wilson while playing the slot, will outweigh Harvin's big play potential.

We won't know whether I turn out to be right or not until the season is over of course, but if I had to bet real money, that's where I would bet it. Leaving aside the obvious locker room/chemistry problems, I think that this may turn out to be addition by subtraction. By subtracting the need for Bevell to constantly scheme creative ways to get the ball into Harvin's hands, we can now let Wilson do what he does best...ball distribute! Be the point guard QB he is, and find the open receiver WHOEVER that may be.
No more trying to force the ball into Harvin, no more cutesy offenseive schemes, it's back to tough guy football, and I for one, like this MUCH better, and think that we will probably be much better off!

Sheer, unadulterated awesomeness, that read. Par for the course from our simian friend.

It's good to see some of the vitriol back on this board. Some of the confusion. Some of the fear.

Less of the pom-poms.

Gotta love the anger here. :twisted:

Now if only some of the Hawks who remain can channel that same anger, and let it pop outta a can of whup-ass — every Hawk's playing with the same level of zeal to punish on every play that Marshawn Lynch has up to this point made his milieu.

It's always fun to watch an underestimated team player come of age.

It's especially fun to watch an underestimated team remember what brought them there.

No show doggs in this freak show, baby.

by **obiken** » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:07 pm

Wow no kidding we haven't had that much anger since we were all together on the PI forum!! It just doesn't sound like they had much of a choice, he was as bad as TO.

by **Oly** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:46 am

monkey wrote:I just wanted to post some random thoughts I have about all of this, in no discernible order, maybe to change the direction of this conversation a bit.

* The original trade for Harvin is clearly one of the worst ever, of that there can be little doubt; yet at the same time, it was a move that made perfect sense in many ways, and wasn't really a total bust either...all those Seahawks players walking around with Super Bowl rings can attest to that. Sure, we may have won the Super Bowl without him, I would say we probably would have, but there is no doubt that his impact (the jet sweeps and the kick return touchdown etc..) helped greatly!
Point is, yes we overpaid, BUT we overpaid in an effort to get a Super Bowl victory. One which we did in fact get.

* I am still blown away by the fact that NO ONE knew what was going on all this time. With the round-the-clock NFL media coverage, I find it amazing that not one person on the team or working with the team let the cat out of the bag.
Sure, the reports are leaking out all over the place NOW, but this thing blindsided EVERYONE..all the so called NFL insiders, all the other players and coaches around the league EVERYONE.
What that tells me, or more precisely, reconfirms is that, Pete and John put a premium on keeping things in the family, and that the players, and people who work for the team, are professional enough, and have enough loyalty to actually be trusted to do just that.
If this had happened in Dallas or New York or, as we are currently seeing in San Francisco, the media would have had a field day with this story LONG before the trade ever actually went down. I'm greatly encouraged by that!

* No doubt there is a strong possibility that the loss of such a legitimate play maker will be a big negative, but it's my belief that the exact opposite is at least equally likely, if not more likely to occur. Let me explain.
Last season, mostly without the aid of Percy Harvin, our offenses identity was all about establishing the run, then using play action to loosen defenses up. You know...smash mouth football. So far this season, we've gone mostly away from that, and instead tried numerous bubble screens, jet weeps, and other types of trickeration. You know...college plays.
It's my belief that the offense will be far better off returning to it's personality; it should help by restoring the tough, attacking mentality Pete wants to team to have, and it should also help cure some of what has been ailing the offensive line as well.
The simple truth is, our offense was better last year WITHOUT Harvin than it has been so far this year. I realize that there could be, and probably are all kinds of mitigating reasons for that, and that there were stretches towards the end of last season where there offense was pretty bad, but the bottom line is, whatever we were doing with Harvin LOOKED better than it actually was.
It certainly didn't help that Harvin kept taking himself out of the game (including on that final drive against Dallas), so that he really was only on the field 60% of the time, but the Harvin experiment just wasn't working.

*There is actually a really good reason that it didn't work. Harvin, for all of his speed, is NOT a deep threat, and not really a great route running true wide either for that matter. If Harvin were able to stretch a defense horizontally the same way that he can vertically, he'd be the hands down, best player in the game...but he cannot. So defenses, once given a little time to game plan, were able to figure out ways to minimize his actual impact, to the point where he actually had more of an impact as a DECOY than as a hybrid WR/RB with the ball in his hands. His ability to stretch the field sideline to sideline did help Lynch find running room in the middle...trouble is,the trade off was that Lynch was getting fewer carries.

*I am REALLY looking forward to seeing the two rookies contribute! I am also really looking forward to, and hoping that, Baldwin gets moved back to the slot where he belongs.
I realize that, the media wants to constantly tell us all that the receiving corps without Harvin is below average, but I completely disagree! I think they are very underrated. I fully expect that Baldwin and Kearse in particular, but Lockette, and the two rookies as well, will outplay the medias expectations by a long ways. I think the value of the speed of Richardson and Lockette in stretching the field horizontally will outweigh the value of Harvin stretching it vertically. I think the value of Kearse and Norwood being strong, big bodied possession receivers will outweigh the value of Percy's ability to break a big gain on a bubble screen. I think that Baldwin's sure handedness, sideline toe tapping, and chemistry with Wilson while playing the slot, will outweigh Harvin's big play potential.

We won't know whether I turn out to be right or not until the season is over of course, but if I had to bet real money, that's where I would bet it. Leaving aside the obvious locker room/chemistry problems, I think that this may turn out to be addition by subtraction. By subtracting the need for Bevell to constantly scheme creative ways to get the ball into Harvin's hands, we can now let Wilson do what he does best...ball distribute! Be the point guard QB he is, and find the open receiver WHOEVER that may be.
No more trying to force the ball into Harvin, no more cutesy offenseive schemes, it's back to tough guy football, and I for one, like this MUCH better, and think that we will probably be much better off!

Awesome post, and couldn't agree more.

Pete has a history of getting the best out of guys, and I think he and JS weren't wrong to think that perhaps Harvin's personality issues wouldn't be as big of a problem here. Pete just gets guys to buy in. But that prediction isn't an exact science, and I don't blame them for taking a gamble on a player who so clearly was able to help the team. I say "able" because, while he had the ability and showed it in flashes, it only worked if he was happy with limited touches. When he started demanding more, he went from helping the team to hurting it (as we all saw in the offensive gameplan against the Cowboys). That's why I'm not upset about the trade, and why I'm also glad to see him gone. It's just part of the business.

by **obiken** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:50 am

That was an awesome post, That's why they went after Richardson, is get that KIND of a WR.

by **RiverDog** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:41 am

Monkey: Great post, indeed!

Although I still stand by my position that as it stands now, the trade is one of if not the worst ever made in Seahawk history, the impact of it and the subsequent 1.5 year presence of Percy Harvin on this team is still a continuing saga who's last chapter has yet to be written. I thought we were getting a 2nd-4th conditional pick from the Jets, but that now appears to be a 4th-6th. That makes it less likely that we'll get any kind of tangible benefit out of this trade, but it could happen. We could still get us that Pro Bowl offensive lineman we so desperately need out of that pick which would take some of the sting out of the trade. Secondly, there are rumors abounding of a split locker room, that guys like Lynch, Irvin, and Avril are extremely upset at Harvin being traded. Are they "in"? There's also the question as to how can we adjust the X's and O's back to our roots, back to featuring the now disgruntled Beast with 20 carries a game and whether or not our receiving corps can rise to the occasion. How this team responds is obviously an open ended question. It could go either way.

If we remain relevant and at least go deep into the playoffs, then I'm willing to admit that the trade had some worth in that Harvin did make a significant contribution to our SB win, albeit almost zero contribution in helping us get there. But if this team implodes and we're one and done in the playoffs or miss them altogether, then this trade will still be subject to additional criticism.

The post Percy story starts in about 4.5 hours. Stay tuned.

by **Seahawks4Ever** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:29 am

One way or another I hope this leads to Darrell Bevell leaving the team at the end of the season. Why? Because DB is the one who lobbied heavily for the Seahawks to first sign Rice and then Harvin. Especially the Harvin trade I blame on Bevell because he knew first hand what a jerk PH was and yet went all giggles at the prospect of redesigning our offense all around Percy. That means it is ultimately Bevell who is not really "all in" with that way Pete wants this team to run, and I mean RUN first to set up the pass. I had thought he would have just weaved Harvin in to THAT system and not wrapped the whole offense around him but NOOO Bevell made him the focal point and basically ruined what had been a good thing.

Bevell has to go IMHO at the end of the season which now might come a lot earlier than we would have ever imagined.

Bringing in Harvin blew up what had been a great team chemistry and I agree with RD that the final chapter in the Percy Harvin saga has yet to be written.

by **Agent 86** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:58 am

obiken wrote:That was an awesome post, That's why they went after Richardson, is get that KIND of a WR.

Yeah, I think there were a lot of people scratching their heads when PRich and Norwood were drafted.

Seems obvious now the Hawks FO knew Percy at best would be here for only 1 more season given the contract status. It would have been easy to cut him after this year I believe with the guaranteed money all paid up?

They most likely thought they could maybe get through this season tolerating him, but things just got worse.

This story is crazy, it really is. While I am so glad Percy is now gone given the stories that have come out, I really think there is some concern about the lasting effects that this situation will leave on the team. Just another challenge that Pete will have to encounter, I think we all trust it will end up OK, but if some losses continue, this situation will be a field day for the media.

by **Uppercut** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:44 am

Should be entertaining to watch what happens in the Jets zoo with Harvin's attitude thrown in there.

by **briwas101** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:58 am

HumanCockroach wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/23/sports/sports-people-seahawks-sign-stouffer.html

Worse trade here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki_Ahman_Green

And here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wrong.

Stouffer trade is pretty close in terms of draft picks, and in terms of production, but Harvin is waaaaaaaaay worse in terms of salary.

So they basically tied in 2 categories and Harvin was far worse in terms of money.

Sorry bro, the harvin trade WAS THE WORST IN SEAHAWKS HISTORY.

High draft pick compensation, horrible production, AND super high salary.

Just because you hated other trades more does not mean they were worse. You're a Harvin fan and don't want to admit how bad it was.

No other move in Hawks history can compete with the unholy trifecta that was Harvin. It's hard to be that bad.

by **HumanCockroach** » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:06 am

LOL. They spent more money on Stouffer, nice try though. You can add in the multiple high draft picks spent to fix that problem while he was still ON the team. Not even close.

by **monkey** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:38 pm

Seahawks4Ever wrote:One way or another I hope this leads to Darrell Bevell leaving the team at the end of the season. Why? Because DB is the one who lobbied heavily for the Seahawks to first sign Rice and then Harvin. Especially the Harvin trade I blame on Bevell because he knew first hand what a jerk PH was and yet went all giggles at the prospect of redesigning our offense all around Percy.

Not only did Bevell want Percy here, but once he had him, apparently he couldn't figure out how to utilize him, while also using the other weapons on this offense...so basically he got exactly the shiny toy he wanted, then couldn't figure out how to make it work.
That's pretty bad actually, especially given how much that toy cost!
If it were up to me, I'd have never hired Bevell in the first place, I've NEVER liked him as an OC, with the caveat that I LOVE his run first emphasis. But if Bevell has to go, I want Cable to go right along with him...or AT LEAST take away his draft influence!!! His drafting of offensive linemen leaves much to be desired!

by **Clem7** » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:34 pm

Harvin wanted to get downfield more. What?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/new ... ar-BBagJpg

And denials.

by **c_hawkbob** » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:59 am

Exacly what we heard on his way here.

by **briwas101** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 8:42 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:LOL. They spent more money on Stouffer, nice try though. You can add in the multiple high draft picks spent to fix that problem while he was still ON the team. Not even close.

They spent more money on stouffer? Not even close.

Im trying to find articles about the 6 year $70m contract the Hawks gave Stouffer but im not seeing it.

OH THATS WHY, BECAUSE STOUFFER WAS PAID LESS THAN $1M PER YEAR!

I guess with HumanCockroach math, 1 million is more than $11m.

Kelly Stouffer: $800, 000
Percy Harvin: $11m+

You are absolutely 100% retarded if you think Stouffer cost more.

No move in seahawks history comes close to the Harvin trade. Worst move in team history.

by **HumanCockroach** » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:34 pm

Says the guy who thinks 800k in 1987 and 11 million in 2014 are in someway comparable. Also the same guy, who doesn't think that a 19th,2nd, and 14th first round pick ( the one traded and the two high picks spent to replace the original f up while he was still on the team and being paid) plus two additional 5th round picks, PLUS at the time one of the top 5. Contracts in the NFL ( Montana, Kelly and Elway made about 200K more per year than him at the time).

Maybe before getting all up in arms, you should actually LEARN something, or at least investigate it ( as it's pretty apparent to me that you could NOT have been a fan at the time, if you are going to call this the "worst trade of all time", Stouffer, financially destroyed the Hawks, cost them a s*** ton of more picks to correct, and lingered for years, with absolutely NO production ( for f%ck sake Stan Gelbaugh was a better QB, as was Dan fricken McGwire, a wasted first round pick to FIX the Stouffer trade throw in Rick Mirer for good measure as well).

Something is retarded here, but sorry man it isn't me.

Just for a little context here, to help you understand. The Seattle Seahawks paid Kelly Stouffer 800k, Steve Largent was paid 950k, or as it relates to right now, Harvin made 11 million, they would be paying NOT Tarvaris Jackson, but BJ Daniels 10 million a year. Got it big guy?

by **monkey** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:44 pm

Briwas, not trying to be a jerk here but, you're clearly too young to remember some of the really horrible moves the Seahawks have made over the years.
And yes, anyone who was alive will remember that the trade HC is talking about was FAR worse than the Harvin trade. The Harvin trade stinks, no getting around it, but it's not going to set us YEARS back, in fact dumping his salary will allow us to resign a few guys we probably wouldn't have otherwise, so we'll be just fine. We've got receivers who we just drafted, who I personally think can be just fine in our offense, and will likely fit better than Harvin as well...all is not lost, the team will move on, and will be just fine.
The trade HC is talking about...well that whole era was nothing but one long disaster, and a large part of it was due to that trade.
You really need to come back from the ledge buddy.

The Seahawks will be just fine, it's not the end of the world, it's really not.

by **yoder** » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:10 pm

briwas101 wrote:You are absolutely 100% retarded if you think Stouffer cost more.

I'm all for banter, debate and smack talk, but your line above is a direct personal insult. Please tone it down.

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