Why Cable likes to switch college D-linemen to offense

[c_hawkbob]

It's evidently due the the proliferation of the spread offense:

"I can go get a guy who runs a little faster, jumps a little higher and has an aggressive streak in him on defense and start with him," Cable said. "I'm going to have to retrain an offensive lineman out of college anyway."

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12872 ... damentally

[Hawk Sista]

Interesting. Thanks, Bobby.

[kalibane]

Perhaps... I still would have rather had Joel Bitonio instead of trading down to take Richardson. Not that Richardson is bad but there is something to be said for a higher base talent level. It just seems like the O-Line is an afterthought for this front office.

I suppose I can't complain too much considering but I kind of get tired of watching RW running for his life week after week and I outright fear the games against the Rams.

[c_hawkbob]

Seems to me the higher base talent level is exactly what he says he's getting by converting D-linemen. At least for the O-linemen that would be available at the same pick.

[Hawk Sista]

O-line is a priority, just not in the traditional way that fans and pundits see it. Your Seattle Seahawks led the league in rushing last year (by a pretty fair margin), besting their totals from the year before. They did this with a rookie right tackle, a right guard who used to play defense, 4 different centers, Carp (oft injured and oft penalized), and Okung (oft injured and oft penalized). Pass-pro is not our #1 priority which kinda plays into the strengths of our QB (though I understand your point, Kalibane).

You all know me; my motto is 'Draft Fat' and has been for some time. But John, Pete and Tom have a plan and they follow it. Let's face it, even though we were better with Unger in the line-up than out, we also went on an 8 game winning streak without him. We went to the Super Bowl two years in a row with an o-line that left a lot to be desired. The SUPER BOWL!!! That is no small achievement. We have all questioned the line in the past and and we question it now. I hope that means we are going back to the Super Bowl. Lewis and Bailey will replace Unger and Carp (at least right now). Lewis came into the offseason program about 30 lbs lighter and in great shape. Coaches also speak of people on the team/practice squad players that have been developing at an exemplary rate and they are really excited about + 3 rookies that Tom is thrilled to have.

Somehow, I feel pretty good about where we are.

[NorthHawk]

So what happens if and when he leaves and we are left with an OL that is average with his system and not experienced with other blocking systems?
Surely to god there are OL in every draft that are athletic and don't need to learn the position.
If he started with guys who are already trained to be OL and have the aggression and athleticism, he could end up having an OL that can actually pass and run block.

As it is, I contend that our running game wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it appears to be without a RB that is consistently near the top of the league in yards gained after first contact.
The day Lynch retires, we will see just how average our OL really is.

[kalibane]

A sixth round defensive lineman generally will not have a higher base talent level than a first round offensive lineman. Maybe if Cable was converting 3rd round talent I'd buy it.

Sorry I don't see the prioritization. Honestly I don't even see the great coaching by Cable at least in terms of results. Sure we have the top rushing offense but it's not like we are anywhere near the top of the league in yards before contact in the running game so measuring the offensive line by the overall running game totals is IMO problematic at best. Luckily our running back is the most physical back in the league.

Dallas probably had the best run blocking line in the league and they've invested HEAVILY in high round picks. Not too shabby in pass protection either. Again... I can't complain too much considering the overall team but I'd like more investment in the OL especially considering the fact that Carpenter, a guy I didn't even want on the field a couple years ago is legitimately a loss.

[HumanCockroach]

Sorry, I must have missed the high first round picks Seattle could have invested in the O-line the last three years, where exactly did Seattle go, and then draft the following year in comparison to Dallas, I must have missed that in my post season celebratory dancing, bragging, and glee.... Must have missed those high first round gems they passed on that Dallas scooped up..

As for "what are we going to do if Cable leaves" the SAME thing EVERY team does when they lose a coach or a player, either upgrade, sign someone, draft someone, or , you know, HIRE a coach that coaches and adheres to the same system belief, coaching belief, etc. Same thing they did when Bradley and now Quinn left, you don't dump the players and start over UNLESS the players NEED to be replaced. Call me crazy, but it comes to assessing good O-line play and players, I'll stick with the guy that has done it for decades opinion over a bunch of folks that STILL can't admit that Wilson holds the ball FAR longer than he should sometimes, creating pressure, and STILL refuse to acknowledge that often times he scrambles when not necessary, and has indeed run INTO pressure, that was not there. Does not mean I want him changing his game, but I'll stick with the top tier online coach on judging line talent, 100 out of 100 times.

[HumanCockroach]

A sixth round defensive lineman generally will not have a higher base talent level than a first round offensive lineman. Maybe if Cable was converting 3rd round talent I'd buy it.

You might want to recheck the physical talents D line show repeatedly at the combine vs o line in the same round ( why, you are comparing a converted late round pick, to a first round pick Seattle does not even posses is beyond me, but, Hell you more often than not find a more physically gifted DL in the 7 th than most first round lineman) strength, speed, jumping ability in general terms typically fall with D lineman. They are not all more physically gifted, but in general terms ? Yeah, they ARE typically stronger, faster and more athletic.

[obiken]

When has a he taken a bad DL and turned him into and All Pro?? Sound logic that doesn't work. Its like saying bumble bees cant fly.

[HumanCockroach]

Not sure who that is directed at, or honestly what the post means ( as in this circumstance the people saying he can't convert them, would be the "bees can't fly" group). Cable HAS converted a defensive lineman into according to PFF a top five guard in the NFL, and the number one graded run blocking guard in the league. Ultimately if All-Pro is the expectation people carry, than their expectations are crazy. 5 solid lineman is more than the MAJORITY of NFL teams possess, and regardless of how much people don't appreciate the line in Seattle, I would imagine ANY fan would gladly trade their line for ours, if it came along with a Lombardi, back to back trips to the SB and a window to win more that is pretty wide open.

[kalibane]

Sorry, I must have missed the high first round picks Seattle could have invested in the O-line the last three years, where exactly did Seattle go, and then draft the following year in comparison to Dallas, I must have missed that in my post season celebratory dancing, bragging, and glee.... Must have missed those high first round gems they passed on that Dallas scooped up..

I knew someone was going to try and take the Dallas example literally just didn't think it would be you.

1. I listed an example from LAST year. We could have taken Joel Bitonio who was a low first round high second round talent but instead traded down and took Paul Richardson. Again not that Richardson wasn't worth his draft slotting but OL is a much bigger need.

2. The fact that Dallas was drafting higher than us does not negate the overall concept of actually investing draft capital in the first, second and third rounds instead of the 4th - 7th on below par athletes.

3. If a defensive lineman is that much of an athlete they aren't lasting until the 7th round. Just not happening unless there are character concerns. Any defensive lineman with elite athleticism will be someone's mid round project.

4. I'm not talking about just this year when we didn't have a first round pick. Nor was I just talking about first round picks.

I have yet to see someone make a case that the current way is actually working with regards to actual Offensive line play. Our pass protection is horrendous and we're near the bottom half of the league in yards before contact in the running game which means they really aren't opening holes consistantly. That was last year before we lost two starters. Sweezy is a nice story but the idea that Cable is going to turn ever 7th round DT he fancies into a decent Offensive lineman is a pipe dream. That is something you do as a pet project the way Holmgren took QBs... when it works... awesome you get Hass or Sweezy but it's not an actual development plan. Furthermore it'd be nice to you know actually have good maybe pro bowl linemen protecting Russell Wilson instead of guys who are just passable at best.

[HumanCockroach]

Cable HAS converted a defensive lineman into according to PFF a top five guard in the NFL.

Two Pro Bowl lineman did indeed protect Wilson (Okung, Unger who also has all pro to his name) Sweezy is considered by those that evaluate offensive lineman a top guard, already, in the league, though no one in Seattle seems willing to admit it.

Britt is a rookie, and we we will have to wait and see.

Overall Seattle's line has been invested in, year after year. Is Bitonio a "better" lineman than Sweezy? Britt? You may be willing to emphatically claim he is, I still will trust the guy who has had 30 years of success judging them regardless of your claim to the contrary.

Seattle has not had a first round pick in three seasons, and still has spent multiple " high round picks" on offensive lineman, just because you, or anyone else does not like the player selected, OR the end result, does not change that fact ( actually put it up prior to this, the truth is Seattle has spent MORE high round draft capital on that particular group than ANY other group on the team.) Sweezy is a "good" guard even if you refuse to acknowledge it ( in fact a GREAT guard if you are inclined to listen to should have done what Dallas did, is silly, as they did NOT have the opportunity to, and despite your belief they have invested in the O line less with top picks, it has in truth been MORE top picks since Carroll and Schneider took over ( number of O-lineman selected in first three picks 5-4 Seattle).

Per you. You would like to see them " invest heavily" in the offensive line, they HAVE , seems you just forgot or missed it.

[kalibane]

Okung was a top 10 pick. Unger was taken in the 2nd round. I hate when people use this phrase but you are kind of proving my point here.

Again I have nothing against Cable converting D linemen ... But it is NOT a development plan. You are honestly telling me that you think that you can reliably stock your offensive line with late round defensive linemen and converting them? Seriously.

Bitonio is HANDS down better than Britt at this point. It's not even close. Britt was lost in pass protection half the time last year. Bitonio played at a near pro-bowl level. I don't get why you're trying to compare a guy (Sweazy) who will never see a snap at Tackle to Bitonio.

I'll ask again if Tom Cable's strategy is so fantastic... Why did the Seahawks have one of the worst pass blocking lines in the league the last few years and on top of that have one of the lowest yards before contact numbers while run blocking. You can hide behind "trusting" Cables 30 years of experience as much as you want. We both know that's just a way of not having to actually argue a point. Gregg Williams has 25 years of experience in the NFL... doesn't mean it was a good idea to stick to his blitz scheme when he had an all world front four that didn't need blitzes to get pressure on the QB.

We all went into the offseason the last three years agreeing that the Oline was by far the weakest unit on the field. What they are doing can't be working that well. One success story in 5 years vindicate the strategy for filling out the O-line.

[HumanCockroach]

Okung was a top 10 pick. Unger was taken in the 2nd round. I hate when people use this phrase but you are kind of proving my point here.

Again I have nothing against Cable converting D linemen ... But it is NOT a development plan. You are honestly telling me that you think that you can reliably stock your offensive line with late round defensive linemen and converting them? Seriously.

Bitonio is HANDS down better than Britt at this point. It's not even close. Britt was lost in pass protection half the time last year. Bitonio played at a near pro-bowl level. I don't get why you're trying to compare a guy (Sweazy) who will never see a snap at Tackle to Bitonio.

I'll ask again if Tom Cable's strategy is so fantastic... Why did the Seahawks have one of the worst pass blocking lines in the league the last few years and on top of that have one of the lowest yards before contact numbers while run blocking. You can hide behind "trusting" Cables 30 years of experience as much as you want. We both know that's just a way of not having to actually argue a point. Gregg Williams has 25 years of experience in the NFL... doesn't mean it was a good idea to stick to his blitz scheme when he had an all world front four that didn't need blitzes to get pressure on the QB.

We all went into the offseason the last three years agreeing that the Oline was by far the weakest unit on the field. What they are doing can't be working that well. One success story in 5 years vindicate the strategy for filling out the O-line.

I keep comparing Bitonio to Sweezy as opposed to Britt because Bitonio plays GUARD not tackle, has played guard since day one, continues to play guard, and is listed as, a guard. The question really should be why do you insist on comparing him to a tackle?

You expressed a desire for Seattle to invest in their o-line, like Dallas, I pointed out they had, you decided to dismiss anything other than a first round pick, fine, though again, Seattle has indeed invested the SAME amount of first round picks in that o-line as Dallas ( 2-2) while Seattle has had three less picks IN the first round... So enough with the make believe.

As for the viability of converted d line players, nah, I don't believe there are going to be five converted lineman out there starting, but one starter, and perhaps a back up? Sure, I could buy that, they already have a quality starter going that route. I could care little if the draft a "project" lineman every year in the seventh, or sign five as UDFA EVERY year, as those guys are in one way or another always projects, or development players anyway.

Your b**** here has little to do with the investment, and everything to do with how picks have worked out, the choice of players you either didn't know, or players you didn't like, either way, spare me the they don't invest, or only rely on converted d lineman, it simply is NOT true. Sick of hearing the same FALSE complaint being spewed out in every thread about the Seattle line, which last I checked was at least good enough to get them to two straight SB's, right? Dallas, Cleveland, SF pick a team, not so much.

[briwas101]

Okung was a top 10 pick. Unger was taken in the 2nd round. I hate when people use this phrase but you are kind of proving my point here.

Again I have nothing against Cable converting D linemen ... But it is NOT a development plan. You are honestly telling me that you think that you can reliably stock your offensive line with late round defensive linemen and converting them? Seriously.

Bitonio is HANDS down better than Britt at this point. It's not even close. Britt was lost in pass protection half the time last year. Bitonio played at a near pro-bowl level. I don't get why you're trying to compare a guy (Sweazy) who will never see a snap at Tackle to Bitonio.

I'll ask again if Tom Cable's strategy is so fantastic... Why did the Seahawks have one of the worst pass blocking lines in the league the last few years and on top of that have one of the lowest yards before contact numbers while run blocking. You can hide behind "trusting" Cables 30 years of experience as much as you want. We both know that's just a way of not having to actually argue a point. Gregg Williams has 25 years of experience in the NFL... doesn't mean it was a good idea to stick to his blitz scheme when he had an all world front four that didn't need blitzes to get pressure on the QB.

We all went into the offseason the last three years agreeing that the Oline was by far the weakest unit on the field. What they are doing can't be working that well. One success story in 5 years vindicate the strategy for filling out the O-line.

I keep comparing Bitonio to Sweezy as opposed to Britt because Bitonio plays GUARD not tackle, has played guard since day one, continues to play guard, and is listed as, a guard. The question really should be why do you insist on comparing him to a tackle?

You expressed a desire for Seattle to invest in their o-line, like Dallas, I pointed out they had, you decided to dismiss anything other than a first round pick, fine, though again, Seattle has indeed invested the SAME amount of first round picks in that o-line as Dallas ( 2-2) while Seattle has had three less picks IN the first round... So enough with the make believe.

As for the viability of converted d line players, nah, I don't believe there are going to be five converted lineman out there starting, but one starter, and perhaps a back up? Sure, I could buy that, they already have a quality starter going that route. I could care little if the draft a "project" lineman every year in the seventh, or sign five as UDFA EVERY year, as those guys are in one way or another always projects, or development players anyway.

Your b**** here has little to do with the investment, and everything to do with how picks have worked out, the choice of players you either didn't know, or players you didn't like, either way, spare me the they don't invest, or only rely on converted d lineman, it simply is NOT true. Sick of hearing the same FALSE complaint being spewed out in every thread about the Seattle line, which last I checked was at least good enough to get them to two straight SB's, right? Dallas, Cleveland, SF pick a team, not so much.

Yes Seattle has invested top picks on OL, but the Seahawks are among the worst OL talent evaluators in the entire NFL.

When we draft a good OL he is frequently injured (okung). Carpenter was a bust (even before injuries). Moffit didn't even want to play football, and Sweezey is an average guard which is at least good for where we got him.

To sit there and say the Hawks have done as much as the Cowboys completely ignores the fact that Cable is garbage and Pete and John don't know how to evaluate OL talent.

They need to start learning from Jerry Jones how to build the OL because that is the one area where he is way better than Pete and John have ever been.

[kalibane]

Oh Stop Cockroach... never once did I say ONLY first round draft choices although I'd be happy to see them invest in a first round talent. The only comment I made specifically about the talent gap between low round picks and high round picks. If you want to say second round it doesn't matter. Same point applies. 2nd round talent is generally higher than 6th round talent regardless of the position.

You are the only one stuck on the first round and the first round only. The bottom line is our line stinks and so far and by and large this regime has invested in projects rather than top level prospects despite the fact that the Offensive Line has increasingly been a problem area on this team year after year. We lost two starters this year to an already terrible line and the answer was two fourth round picks and another conversion project. And yet they were willing to invest a 2nd round pick on a guy with major character issues at a position of strength and trade three more picks to move up and grab a return man.

Now maybe Lockett turns out to be Devin Hester and Clark will be a Michael Bennett clone and that's all well and good... but it's also beside the point. Which is there is far more willingness to use more draft capital at other positions at the expense of the weakest unit (by far) on the team. That's all I'm saying. That and I don't see any real evidence of Cable being this incredible Offensive Line genius who can coach up anyone who he identifies as "his type". The results speak for themselves... even in the running game.

I even said I can't complain too much given the overall success of the team but you aren't going to sit here and tell me that they have made any sort of major commitment to the line or that Tom Cable has shown any real ability at identifying and developing Offensive Linemen. None of the guys we've drafted since Carroll and Schneider have been hired have been replacement level talent on day one of the season in which they were drafted with the exception of Okung. Sweezy is the only guy who has actually developed into an above average guy at his position.

[c_hawkbob]

While I agree that we may have we have devoted as much draft capitol to the OL as other teams (though I fail to see how that's relevant) I don't feel that we've devoted enough. I'm like Sis, all about drafting fat, and I'd sure like to see us doing so earlier that we tend to.

And while I agree that we are not as adept at grading O-line talent coming out of the draft now as we were during the Holmgren era (which is true of almost any staff in the NFL) I disagree that "Cable is garbage" and I actually very much like his philosophy of converting late round defensive talent to the offensive side of the ball. Especially for run blockers (as that is a more aggressive pursuit, pass blocking isn't exactly passive, but the mean streak defensive players bring to the table will benefit most their run blocking). I'd like to see it used in concert with the expenditure of early picks on quality O-linemen. I think early round Tackles and converted interior linemen would be an ideal mix.

I also very greatly disagree that Sweezey is only average, he's got definite Pro Bowl potential and ain't playing far off that standard right now.

[kalibane]

*sigh*

1. I never said Cable is "garbage". I said given the overall performance of the Offensive line I see no evidence of "Great Coaching" where in the context of this discussion we can just trust that oh he said he likes X player and he'll automatically be able to turn him into a good lineman even though he has 4th-7th round talent level as long as he fits Cable's scheme, which seems to be the thought process of a lot of Seahawk fans. There is a massive amount of room on the scale between "garbage" and "great".

2. I also never said Sweezy was "average" ... I said Sweezy is the only "above average" OL that Cable has developed. More to the point, "Above Average" includes everything from slightly above replacement level to 1st team All-Pro and Sweezy is the ONLY player that Cable has developed who falls into that range. So even in quoting me correctly, "above average" it was not a grade on Sweezy himself... it was a grade on the rest of the OL prospects who don't rise to the bottom level of that wide range.

I won't put words in your mouth if you don't put them in mine.

[c_hawkbob]

Why are you assuming I'm putting words into your mouth Kal? I didn't quote your post in my reply did I? Or address you in my post?

Fact is that it was briwas that said both of those things but I didn't quote his post either because I was saying what I said for general consumption and not just specifically to him.

You just happened to have posted while I was writing after reading briwas' post.

[HumanCockroach]

Which is there is far more willingness to use more draft capital at other positions at the expense of the weakest unit (by far) on the team.

And as I continue to point out, this statement is 100% false, You want complain about evaluation, be my guest, but as I consistently do, when someone insists they haven't invested the picks, I'm going to call them on it, ESPECIALLY when someone uses a team that has drafted LESS at the position group as the "bar".

I was not overly blown away by any o line pick either, nor have I been blown away by their play, I just look at everything as a whole ( picks, location of them, players available, needs, offensive style, QB play, receiver play etc) prior to making claims that are covered in my dissapointments. Truth is there are a Hell of a LOT of former Seahawks lineman that people here couldn't wait to run out of town that being paid well to START on numerous other teams, which shows that the amount of quality lineman Ian't some never ending supply that can ALWAYS be upgraded in the draft, AND that Seattle has some lineman that in th grand scheme of things, are NFL starting caliber, no matter what any of us feel about it.

[kalibane]

In the last 5 years the Cowboys have spent 3 1st round picks and a 3rd round pick on their offensive line. In the last 5 years the Seahawks have spent a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd. But you're right they haven't invested more. It's worse when you consider that Moffit and Carpenter were clearly busts and even after three years of terrible play (two years and traded for Moffitt) they made minimal efforts to replace them.

But I suppose you are trying to add all the 4th - 7th round picks into the mix. Of course the Cowboys have invested fewer TOTAL picks, because they invested their high draft choices in good offensive linemen who are now playing at a pro-bowl level, consequently they don't have burn 7 low round picks hoping they can develop them into decent players.

Finally, who are these "hell of a lot" of former Seahawk linemen that people are tripping over themselves to start? I count two "starters". Breno who is a legit decent RT and in theory, Carp. Breno is solid but was also signed by a former Seahawk executive. So I'm not sure that's really evidence that people outside the organization saw him differently than we did. Carp well.. do we really need to rehash how he was an embarrassment until coincidentally his contract year? Then he finally put up a passable season. My money is on Fools gold there. I can't wait to see what his weight is when he goes into camp. There is no one else that I can think of so... I can't even think of someone that's still in the league much less starting, unless you're counting Unger who was never up for debate and who's trade is one of the biggest reasons why the lack of attention to the OL is getting really problematic.

[mykc14]

[quote="kalibane"]In the last 5 years the Cowboys have spent 3 1st round picks and a 3rd round pick on their offensive line. In the last 5 years the Seahawks have spent a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd. But you're right they haven't invested more. [quote]

Why just look at the past 5 drafts? Lets look at the last 6. That would make 2-1st, 1-2nd, and 1-3rd for the Hawks and 3-1st and a 3rd for the Cowboys. It's not like the Cowboys have invested a lot more than the Hawks. The problem, as you stated earlier isn't the amount invested its the return. The Hawks have put effort into investing into the OL but the return hasn't been great. A 2 of their picks are no longer with the team, while another has been injury prone and the last one is a work in progress. People keep whining about the amount we have invested and while I would love for us to draft OL or DL in the first rounds of the draft every year whatever the Hawks have been doing has been working, maybe not exactly at the OL but certainly as you look at the makeup of the whole team. We have the best roster in football. I

[HumanCockroach]

In the last 5 years the Cowboys have spent 3 1st round picks and a 3rd round pick on their offensive line. In the last 5 years the Seahawks have spent a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd. But you're right they haven't invested more. It's worse when you consider that Moffit and Carpenter were clearly busts and even after three years of terrible play (two years and traded for Moffitt) they made minimal efforts to replace them.

But I suppose you are trying to add all the 4th - 7th round picks into the mix. Of course the Cowboys have invested fewer TOTAL picks, because they invested their high draft choices in good offensive linemen who are now playing at a pro-bowl level, consequently they don't have burn 7 low round picks hoping they can develop them into decent players.

Finally, who are these "hell of a lot" of former Seahawk linemen that people are tripping over themselves to start? I count two "starters". Breno who is a legit decent RT and in theory, Carp. Breno is solid but was also signed by a former Seahawk executive. So I'm not sure that's really evidence that people outside the organization saw him differently than we did. Carp well.. do we really need to rehash how he was an embarrassment until coincidentally his contract year? Then he finally put up a passable season. My money is on Fools gold there. I can't wait to see what his weight is when he goes into camp. There is no one else that I can think of so... I can't even think of someone that's still in the league much less starting, unless you're counting Unger who was never up for debate and who's trade is one of the biggest reasons why the lack of attention to the OL is getting really problematic.

Your missing several ( Barber, Polumbus, McQuistan to name a few you seem Hell bent on glossing over, there's more, but what's the point? Either you will dismiss them, or claim them fool's gold) . You want to continue to whine, worry, fret, and profess doom because Seattle hasn't drafted who YOU wanted them to, WHEN YOU wanted them to draft them like the tackle that is really guard. Feel free to ignore the facts all you want, things like the lack of first round picks, the lack if actual QUALIY players AVAILABLE players on the line even IF they HAD them to utilize, were they would be picking if they had them, the type if players this staff covets, looks for and selects, ignore the number of former players this team has signed, developed, and drafted that are starting, continue to profess how you have the right of it, and that this line is rubbish, I'll just go on celebrating Seattle's unparalleled success, SB appearances, victories and Lombardi's. I know, how ignorant of me. I'm done with this. That line has been to two SB's in a row, and if they weren't at the VERY least decent starting lineman, they wouldn't have come within sniffing distance.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_ ... ft_history

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_C ... ft_history

Here is the two clubs history of draft picks, be my guest cycling through them, tell me again about no investment, and explain how exactly this coincides with what you are professing, Seattle HAS taken an offensive lineman within their first TWO picks in all but 2 of the six drafts.since Carroll arrived, and in one of those selected TWO in the first two picks, you can complain if you want about the lack of success of those picks, but spare me the they haven't done it lies. Yes Moffit went loco, BUT at the time, it WAS panned as a GOOD selection, Carpenter was said to be a reach, but was NOT considered a blown pick. In general you can complain about whiffing on the picks, but NOT that they did not MAKE those picks. Dallas has "hit" on their three, good for them, SF hit on their stretch of lineman picks as well, Browns ditto, tell me, how many championships do those teams have, Hell how many division titles did accomplish, or winning records? Not a ONE of those teams or fans would bemoan being in Seattle's shoes right now, but be my guest.

[Hawktawk]

Fascinating theory by Cable.

Its tough to evaluate this line overall due to the very unique skill sets of both the players in the backfield. Lynch makes holes where there are none and makes good defenders miss. Wilson is also deadly as a runner, helping his O line and Lynch as well. And lets face it there are several pass plays every game that are DOA and Wilson makes them work by escaping to run or throw to a wide open reciever. Great backs and QBs should have that ability but I think RW and Lynch definitely make the line look better than it is sometimes.

[savvyman]

Some interesting Comments by Tom Cable regarding this topic in this morning PI.


http://blog.seattlepi.com/football/2015/05/12/seahawks-notes-tom-cable-says-college-offenses-hurting-fundamentals-may-12-a-key-date-in-nfl-free-agency/#32867101=0


>>>>>>>>Seahawks offensive line/assistant head coach Tom Cable has a good reason for switching collegiate defensive players to the offensive side of the ball: In the pros, they require just as much retraining as their offensive counterparts.

Appearing on 710 ESPN’s “Brock and Salk” show Tuesday, Cable said that the proliferation of spread offenses in college has made it harder for players to adjust in the NFL, particularly the offensive linemen under his charge. That, in turn, has made it harder to evaluate players as they prepare to enter the league.

“Unfortunately, I think we’re doing a huge disservice to offensive football players — other than a receiver — that come out of these spread systems,” Cable continued. “The runners aren’t as good. They aren’t taught how to run. The blockers aren’t as good. The quarterbacks aren’t as good. They don’t know how to read coverage and throw progressions. They have no idea.”

Since Cable joined Seattle in 2011, the team has made a habit of drafting or signing college players who played on the defensive line and converting them to offense. Sometimes it’s worked — most notably with 2012 seventh-round pick J.R. Sweezy, who has 31 starts at right guard over the past two seasons — but sometimes it hasn’t, like with 2013 seventh-round pick Jared Smith, who was released in 2014.

The Seahawks had several converted defenders on their offensive line during last week’s rookie minicamp, including 2015 sixth-round pick Kristjan Sokoli and undrafted second-year pro Kona Schwenke, who came to Seattle for a tryout and performed well enough to warrant a contract from the team on Monday.

Cable said it was easier to identify athleticism in defensive linemen, which is why players like Sokoli and Schwenke made their way to the team.

“I’m not wanting to offend anybody, but college football, offensively, has just gotten to be really, really bad fundamentally,” Cable said. “You look at it and say, ‘Well I can go get a guy who runs a little faster, maybe jumps a little higher, that’s got an aggressive streak in him. At least I can see that on defense and just start with him. I’m going to have to retrain an offensive lineman that’s coming out of college right now anyway.”<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Hawk Sista]

I stand by my earlier statements. If the team were mine, I'd move heaven and earth to try and build an o-Line comparable to the one in the Hawks’ first Super Bowl. You remember the one; the really good one with Walter, Steve, Robbie, Chris, and Sean. I cannot even begin to imagine what Beast Mode's #s would be behind that line.

Anyway - this current squadron of Seahawks' brass (coaches, GM, owner, VP of football operations etc) has a different plan to build the O-line than I would (and check this out - they ain’t listening to me from my couch in Fresno). Theirs is a much different vision than the one anyone on this board has and it is very different than the one Mike Holmgren had when he built that fan-freaking-tastic line in the early 2000s. Like it, love it, hate it or annoyed by it… there is simply no arguing the results. We have been deep in the playoffs for three straight years including back-to-back trips to the Super Bowl for the first time in our franchise's history.

When it was my turn to draft, I would have drafted Gabe Carimi, Joel Bitonio, Xavier Sua Filo, Morgan Moses, David Decastro, and/or Riley Rief over the years (with admittedly very different results). This brass, with their big brass balls (fully inflated ) have opted for the Justin Britt’s and JR Sweezy types. They are choosing to build this line with stellar athletes. Cable says the jacked up spread offenses yield precious few athletes who can do what the NFL needs them to on the O-line so he’d rather snag the best athletes he can get and teach em what they need to know.

I’ll probably always scratch my head when these guys draft in the first few rounds. And even though not every move has paid dividends like we fans want, the system they have built - the program that bonds players to each other and their fans via heavy sacrifice and feeling disrespected is one that seems to work year in and year out. We are among the NFL’s elite. Can Dallas and their o-line really say that right now? Even though we went to the SB with the aforementioned line, were we considered one of the elite teams of the era?
I believe in what they are doing and realize we simply cannot have a star at every position. I, for the most part, scratch my head and figure it'll work out (save the Frank Clark discussion) because in this SYSTEM, the whole is so very much greater than the sum of its parts. I believe we will win another Lombardi with PC and JS at the helm. I'll bet we do - anyone want to bet against me?

[NorthHawk]

It's odd that other teams can find plug and play OL talent throughout the draft and we have to try to change DL to OL. I still think there is more than a little ego involved in this as a lot of Colleges don't play the spread exclusively.
Perhaps it's the system we run that requires a specific type of player. That then breeds the question of if other teams can find starting talent early to mid rounds, might it not be a better idea to run an OL blocking scheme of the type where the talent pool coming out of College is deeper?

Regarding getting back to the Super Bowl, it will depend on the Defense because that's what this team focuses and relies on to win.
Our Offense is a secondary contributor to our success and without a dominating Defense we would be in real trouble.
If you don't think so, ask yourself this: Can the Offense carry the team for a year?
The Defense has been doing it for the most part of the last 4. I doubt the Offense could for 1.

What I want is for the Offense (and the OL is the engine of any Offense especially one that wants to run first) is to be able to dominate the Line of Scrimmage and thereby control the ball.
That helps the Defense more than anything and with our guys getting older on D as well as attrition when players leave to chase bigger paychecks or like Lynch in the near future retire, it's going to become even more important than it has been the last few years.

With Sweezy and Okung going into their last contracted year, we could lose either one or maybe both players in 2016.
Should both go, that would be 4 out of 5 of the starters gone from the 2015 Super Bowl and 5 out of 5 from the 2014 Super Bowl win and could leave Britt as the elder statesman of the OL and maybe our best player there. Yikes!

[HumanCockroach]

Psst just an FYI, Seattle's offense scores quite a few points, nd gains quite a few yards as well, you guys might want to look into it, the Hawks offense may indeed garner less passing.yards than many would like to see, but this continuing claim that they are along for the ride hasn't been accurate since Tavaris Jackson was quarterback.

Anemic offenses don't lead the league in explosive plays.

[NorthHawk]

They have to go for the big play because they can't consistently grind out a drive.

[HumanCockroach]

LMFAO. Sure, them, GB, NO, Denver all those guys... ROTFLMAO... OK, whatever

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total

Top ten offense in yards, and points, that is 11th in 3rd down efficiency, that is run dominant, and has Lynch dragging teams for first down after first down, can't drive the ball, and has to rely on explosive plays alone.ok, ya sure you betcha....

[NorthHawk]

Be a Pollyanna if you want, but this OL has had only 2 things going for it, namely Wilson and Lynch.
The explosive plays are resulting from Wilson improvising and the run game is successful only because Lynch is one of the best runners after contact.
Both cover for the inadequacies of the OL from a stats point of view.
The points are a result of the Defense giving the Offense opportunities.

[obiken]

I think its easier to convert good OL to DL than a good DL to OL. There are always going to be exceptions.

[HumanCockroach]

If you want to believe Seattle's offensive line is swiss cheese, and somehow magically appeared in two, won one SB, be my guest. I'm not going to play in that fantasy with you though. I'm not claiming it's a dominant line, adequate? Absolutely. The continued employment castoffs throughout the league SHOULD be a clue, but then what would Seattle fans have to complain about? Is the Seattle O-line the weakest unit on the team? Yep is it as horrid, aweful and pathetic as most seem Hell bent on claiming? Not even close. Has Seattle spent a ton of resources to address it? Yes sir they have. Have they succeded the way we all hoped? Nope. Have they failed as drastically as people here insist they have? Nope.

Wilson and Lynch are special, but they are not robots, and REGARDLESS of what you think, they are NOT doing it alone.

Every single offense relies on the defense to provide "opportunities" and if they don''t they are going to lose a LOT of games. Seattle is a top ten offense, period, just the truth of the matter,it's defense is historic, just because one trumps the other, does NOT mean the lesser of the two is garbage. I don't remember, did Steelers fans in the 70's claim their offense was garbage because of the Steel Curtain? Did Miners fans claim a garbage D when Joe and Co were running things? Did Miami fans bemoan that O during the Killer B's hey day? Nah something tells me they didn't . Have yet to hear a Rams fan dis their D from the greatest show on Turf time, or Pats fans trash their D ( or O earlier during the initial faze of the Pats dynasty) , and yet, here in Seattle, has to be done, not sure why, but you can set a clock by it.

You and others can place all the importance on who, what, where and why players were selected you want, I prefer to focus on results, wins, and Championships.I am cool with that, but when I see false statements, I point out the truth.

[RiverDog]

The fact is that for the past several years, we have not been selecting from a very high position and if our success continues, it won't improve very much, especially given our trend to trade away our top picks, so this improvising of Cable's could be driven at least in part by necessity.

The Sweezy experiment, to this point, has been a huge success, while our two #1 OL picks, Okung and Carpenter, haven't paid as big a dividends as one would expect out of a #1 pick. Plus there's always the worn out kicker that we've been very successful with our overall strategy as in the past 3 years, we've averaged 12 wins a season with two SB appearances and one Lombardi. But even so, I would still like to see them invest a little more in the OL. I worry about the odds of Russell's long term health while he's standing back there in that shooting gallery.

[NorthHawk]

There are starting OL in every draft from rounds 2 to 4 and sometimes deeper. It's not easy to commit to it, but it's well worth the investment.
If they selected one (or two in deeper years) quality OL every draft, we wouldn't be looking at a possible complete changeover from the Super Bowl win.
We are obviously going to take a bit of a hit in OL production this year as Bailey, Lewis, or JeanPierre couldn't beat out Carpenter and Unger to start.

Irvin has now said he expects to leave after this year (http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2015/ ... ract-is-up). He's just hitting his stride as an OLB, so our Defense just might take another loss of a starter.
This would put more pressure on the Offense, which might also lose one or both of our FA OL as well as the enigmatic Lynch (his time in the NFL is coming to an end unfortunately).
The biggest thing that could help us is a stellar Offensive Line. We don't have anything even close to that now and the future doesn't look like there will be much improvement.

[HumanCockroach]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_ ... ft_history

[RiverDog]

There are starting OL in every draft from rounds 2 to 4 and sometimes deeper. It's not easy to commit to it, but it's well worth the investment.
If they selected one (or two in deeper years) quality OL every draft, we wouldn't be looking at a possible complete changeover from the Super Bowl win.
We are obviously going to take a bit of a hit in OL production this year as Bailey, Lewis, or JeanPierre couldn't beat out Carpenter and Unger to start.

Irvin has now said he expects to leave after this year (http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2015/ ... ract-is-up). He's just hitting his stride as an OLB, so our Defense just might take another loss of a starter.
This would put more pressure on the Offense, which might also lose one or both of our FA OL as well as the enigmatic Lynch (his time in the NFL is coming to an end unfortunately).
The biggest thing that could help us is a stellar Offensive Line. We don't have anything even close to that now and the future doesn't look like there will be much improvement.

At the risk of attracting our thread policeman Anthony into the fray, that link you have on Irvin is a little unnerving. It would seem that Pete's talk with him didn't smooth over the disrespect Irvin obviously felt when the Hawks decided not to pick up his option year.