Manafort Trial

[idhawkman]

Jury selection starts today and it looks like they have now selected it.

Any predictions on what he will be "guilty" of? I'm predicting he will not be convicted of anything.

[burrrton]

Jury selection starts today and it looks like they have now selected it.

Any predictions on what he will be "guilty" of? I'm predicting he will not be convicted of anything.

Haven't followed him that closely, but from what I remember reading:

1. He's in some deep sht(??)

2. It has nothing to do with "Russian Collusion"?

Are both of those nonsense?

[RiverDog]

I'm predicting he will not be convicted of anything.

What a shock!

I haven't a clue how this will turn out. I do know that it's very difficult to prove intent, and if he does owe taxes on a significant amount of money, odds are that they'll just make him pay the taxes and a penalty rather than tax fraud. But I know very little about the evidence that the prosecution has collected.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm thinking money laundering and maybe tax fraud or evasion. It sounds like he was working with some criminals looking to avoid normal financial channels.

I don't think much will be done about the lobbying and payments as that is standard Washington behavior. As I've pointed out several times which few seem to note is that Hilary paid a foreign spy to get dirt on Trump. For some reason this is ok, but Trump getting info from Russians is not. It's super strange that people are ignoring Hilary benefited from a foreign operative with foreign contacts to build a dirt file on Trump. It's unbelievably hypocritical and shows how pathetic American politics is. Hilary basically did exactly what Trump is accused of and she gets a giant pass. This garbage is just so ridiculous. Maybe no one cares because he is a British spy. I don't know. But if she can do it, then so can Trump Russian or not. So engaging a foreign operative to get dirt cannot be illegal or Hilary would also be on trial.

[idhawkman]

Haven't followed him that closely, but from what I remember reading:

1. He's in some deep sht(??)

Not really. He was aquitted back in 2014 by Rod Rosenstein. As soon as he puts Rod on the stand as a witness this will go away in my opinion. E.g. "Mr Rosenstein, why did you not press charges and not persue this issue back in 2014?" As soon as he answers, I'd follow up with, "What new information has come to light since that time?" (the answer is None). Also, all the payments and transactions was done by his partner who now has immunity for pleading guilty to one count of perjury to the FBI. So they went after the wrong guy in this case. I laughed this morning after hearing the Judge once again scolded the Mueller team in their use of words in his court. This is going to turn out really bad for Mueller.

2. It has nothing to do with "Russian Collusion"?

Are both of those nonsense?

True, this one has nothing to do with the Trump's and campaign. They are using this one to try and leverage a turn against Trump but Manafort is not playing along and making them try their case. When he showed up the first time, the Mueller team was not ready and refused to turn over discovery. That's why this is nothing to do about Trump on this case.

The next case about unregistered lobbying could have more impact on Manafort and may have some contorted linkage to Trump but I doubt it. He'll be the like 5th or 6th person ever charged with that offense. Remember that the Podesta group got immunity for the same crime and no one knows why they gave him immunity. What did he turn over? So I think this is going to end very badly for the Mueller team and hence the reason Manafort is fighting it.

[RiverDog]

I'm thinking money laundering and maybe tax fraud or evasion. It sounds like he was working with some criminals looking to avoid normal financial channels.

I don't think much will be done about the lobbying and payments as that is standard Washington behavior. As I've pointed out several times which few seem to note is that Hilary paid a foreign spy to get dirt on Trump. For some reason this is ok, but Trump getting info from Russians is not. It's super strange that people are ignoring Hilary benefited from a foreign operative with foreign contacts to build a dirt file on Trump. It's unbelievably hypocritical and shows how pathetic American politics is. Hilary basically did exactly what Trump is accused of and she gets a giant pass. This garbage is just so ridiculous. Maybe no one cares because he is a British spy. I don't know. But if she can do it, then so can Trump Russian or not. So engaging a foreign operative to get dirt cannot be illegal or Hilary would also be on trial.

Yea, I'm not too concerned about the meddling issue as far as it relates to Trump. If all that happened was that he got some dirt on Hillary courtesy the Russians, I'm not that concerned about it. And as far as anything impeachable coming out of the investigation, it would have to be on the order of changing Hillary votes to Trump votes, screwing up the actual balloting, to the point of having affected the result of the election.

But I do think that Trump is not doing enough to pressure the Russians to quit messing with elections. He wants positive ID presented at polls (something I support, too), but he doesn't want to make any substansive effort to keep the Russians from affecting our election process. It's like he doesn't care unless it will benefit him personally.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yea, I'm not too concerned about the meddling issue as far as it relates to Trump. If all that happened was that he got some dirt on Hillary courtesy the Russians, I'm not that concerned about it. And as far as anything impeachable coming out of the investigation, it would have to be on the order of changing Hillary votes to Trump votes, screwing up the actual balloting, to the point of having affected the result of the election.

But I do think that Trump is not doing enough to pressure the Russians to quit messing with elections. He wants positive ID presented at polls (something I support, too), but he doesn't want to make any substansive effort to keep the Russians from affecting our election process. It's like he doesn't care unless it will benefit him personally.

I wouldn't do much either to tell you the truth. I think this whole thing is a fabrication in Washington to create a new enemy to justify spending and increased policing. I think our intelligence agencies are backing this for the same reason most people back stupid things: job security. I don't have much trust or faith in our government. I think it's reached the point where job justification is more important than responsible governance. I think it will only get worse as time goes on. I see the same things in D.C. as I see in Washington State where the government fabricates causes and new taxes to support them circumventing the will of the people through backdoor legislation like what they did to increases tab costs and almost did with a head tax in Seattle. Our government needs to continually fabricate enemies to maintain military and intelligence spending. I don't see Russia as the threat to us they're trying to fabricate. We probably interfere in Russian politics and other nations than Russia is even capable of doing here.

Sorry. I don't have further interest in supporting this fabricated crap and the hypocrisy that is a part of it. You want to complain about another nation interfering in our election, then shut down our election/foreign government interference programs. It makes us look like a bunch of hypocritical A-holes.

[Aseahawkfan]

On a side note, what exactly did the Russians do to change the election? So far I'm hearing they meddled in the election by trolling and releasing false information on social media. But that happens every day whether or not the Russians are doing it, so not sure that could be considered election tampering unless they plan to police all of it foreign or domestic. Are there hacked machines or mind control devices? What real actions did they take to interfere that we need to worry about? Releasing dirt is not sufficient as that is par for the course every election. I'm still trying to pinpoint what exactly we're looking to stop and why they need the money. Are they going to give us a detailed list that isn't something a regular citizen can do as well.

[idhawkman]

On a side note, what exactly did the Russians do to change the election? So far I'm hearing they meddled in the election by trolling and releasing false information on social media. But that happens every day whether or not the Russians are doing it, so not sure that could be considered election tampering unless they plan to police all of it foreign or domestic. Are there hacked machines or mind control devices? What real actions did they take to interfere that we need to worry about? Releasing dirt is not sufficient as that is par for the course every election. I'm still trying to pinpoint what exactly we're looking to stop and why they need the money. Are they going to give us a detailed list that isn't something a regular citizen can do as well.

And therein lies the problem of the Russian hoax. The only machine they hacked (supposedly) is the DNC email server and then gave those emails to Wiki-leaks. Julian Assange has stated numerous times that he did not get the emails from any "State Actor". The FBI nor Mueller have interviewed Assange. The DNC refused to give their server to the FBI for forensics. They outsourced the forensics of the server to a Ukrainian company that hates Putin. Clapper, the DNI at the time, got a report from the Ukrainian company with their findings and stated that the report was credible. That's where the 17 Intel agencies agree comment comes from.

The indictments against the 13 Russian citizens in St. Petersburg and the 12 GRU officials from Moscow are all around facebook posts inciting desent from both conservatives and liberals. There's also a claim that they were trying (but never successful) to hack state election boards. But there were more than just the Russians doing this. N. Korea, Iran and China were at least 3 others that tried the same thing. None were successful.

So to put this in perspective, Mueller has indicted 25 Russians for the same thing any illegal immigrant to the US has done if they put any post for or against a candidate on facebook. That should put it in the right perspective for everyone who is interested.

[Aseahawkfan]

And therein lies the problem of the Russian hoax. The only machine they hacked (supposedly) is the DNC email server and then gave those emails to Wiki-leaks. Julian Assange has stated numerous times that he did not get the emails from any "State Actor". The FBI nor Mueller have interviewed Assange. The DNC refused to give their server to the FBI for forensics. They outsourced the forensics of the server to a Ukrainian company that hates Putin. Clapper, the DNI at the time, got a report from the Ukrainian company with their findings and stated that the report was credible. That's where the 17 Intel agencies agree comment comes from.

The indictments against the 13 Russian citizens in St. Petersburg and the 12 GRU officials from Moscow are all around facebook posts inciting desent from both conservatives and liberals. There's also a claim that they were trying (but never successful) to hack state election boards. But there were more than just the Russians doing this. N. Korea, Iran and China were at least 3 others that tried the same thing. None were successful.

So to put this in perspective, Mueller has indicted 25 Russians for the same thing any illegal immigrant to the US has done if they put any post for or against a candidate on facebook. That should put it in the right perspective for everyone who is interested.

That's what I'm talking about. I have yet to see any evidence that anything substantial was done to sway the election to Trump. The biggest hit on Hilary came from Trump Hating Comey when he released information about Hilary's email server just before the election. The liberal media hated Comey then, now that he's a Trump Hater they love him. This whole thing is stupid. It's as bad as the birther crap during Obama. Just a hoax attack on the president because they can and a segment of the American population will buy into almost anything.

[idhawkman]

That's what I'm talking about. I have yet to see any evidence that anything substantial was done to sway the election to Trump. The biggest hit on Hilary came from Trump Hating Comey when he released information about Hilary's email server just before the election. The liberal media hated Comey then, now that he's a Trump Hater they love him. This whole thing is stupid. It's as bad as the birther crap during Obama. Just a hoax attack on the president because they can and a segment of the American population will buy into almost anything.

Its pathetic what the deep state has done to Trump but what is even more aggregious is the media won't cover any of what I outlined.

There's two books that lays everything out point by point, very well documented with footnotes and examples of every law that was broken by the Obama Justice department. They are Newt Gingrich's "Trumps America" which really does a great job of showing historical similarities to Trump at crucial points in our countries history. The other one which is just factual without bias is Greg Jarrett's "The Russia Hoax". I bet if River read both of them, he would change his tune about Trump and finally understand the all out assault that is on this nation and Trump.

[Aseahawkfan]

Its pathetic what the deep state has done to Trump but what is even more aggregious is the media won't cover any of what I outlined.

There's two books that lays everything out point by point, very well documented with footnotes and examples of every law that was broken by the Obama Justice department. They are Newt Gingrich's "Trumps America" which really does a great job of showing historical similarities to Trump at crucial points in our countries history. The other one which is just factual without bias is Greg Jarrett's "The Russia Hoax". I bet if River read both of them, he would change his tune about Trump and finally understand the all out assault that is on this nation and Trump.

I don't much believe in the "deep state." This is business as usual with every election. Both parties have people inside and in positions of power to influence in the direction they want things to go. This is just both parties operating as normal.

I don't love Trump. Regardless of how the media is treating him or the so called "deep state", Trump does plenty to make you dislike him all on his own. He says lots of rude, crude things he should know better than to say. He runs the country like he owns it. He's obviously cheated on his wife multiple times. He twitters like a teenage girl. It's not how I like seeing the nation run.

I'm mostly ok with Trump's politics. I don't like the way he pushes it calling nations "s-hole countries", inciting anti-immigrant sentiment with his commentary, and insulting people is just crude behavior. Do you do this in your life when addressing people? I tend to doubt it as you don't see like that much of a loudmouth prick.

I wish we could get a politician with Trump's stances on many things, but better at communicating, a less narcissistic, bombastic, and combative a speaker. His arrogance just flows from his mouth. He worries about things that just don't matter like crowd sizes and his commentary is much to be desired. It's too bad given he seems to be implementing policies that may well help this nation in the future. If he wants a second term, he needs to hammer out these trade deals before they start hurting. They will start hurting given the nature of our economic relationship with China. China is too big a market to cut us off from.

As far as the racial garbage, for me it was worse under Obama. People seem to forget how much racial bigotry and bad behavior occurred during Obama on both sides of the spectrum.Not from Obama himself, but all the people supporting him and against him. This whole rise in racism occurred during Obama and yet they're making it seem like it was a Trump thing because he's a Republican and an easy target for the Democrats to convince America he's a racist. At least I'm not hearing the random slurs and racial infighting all around me as Obama tried to dance between two dueling opponents when some incident occurred the media turned into a racial event. It was painful watching Obama try to be fair to both sides making neither side happy. Blacks never thought he did enough, whites always tried to make it seem like he was being racist saying anything. With Trump the right mostly ignores what he says and the left have always tried to paint any Republican as a racist. In fact, most of the rhetoric online I see writes Republican, "RepubliKKKan." Which is just horse crap. It's why I don't buy the garbage Riverdog is buying into. I've seen ever single Republican president from Reagan painted as a racist by the Democrats and their supporters. This is just par for the course regardless of what Trump has done in his life. They parse his words looking for any opening, then put the racist label on him and push it as hard as they can, just like the sexist label.

[idhawkman]

I don't much believe in the "deep state." This is business as usual with every election. Both parties have people inside and in positions of power to influence in the direction they want things to go. This is just both parties operating as normal.

I thought it was you that said the government practically runs itself regardless of who is president. That is a perfect example of the deep state. Also, could be why the NSA didn't know Trump invited Putin to the white house. They are used to things being as they are and not moving very fast at all.

I don't love Trump. Regardless of how the media is treating him or the so called "deep state", Trump does plenty to make you dislike him all on his own. He says lots of rude, crude things he should know better than to say. He runs the country like he owns it. He's obviously cheated on his wife multiple times. He twitters like a teenage girl. It's not how I like seeing the nation run.

I'm mostly ok with Trump's politics. I don't like the way he pushes it calling nations "s-hole countries", inciting anti-immigrant sentiment with his commentary, and insulting people is just crude behavior. Do you do this in your life when addressing people? I tend to doubt it as you don't see like that much of a loudmouth prick.

I wish we could get a politician with Trump's stances on many things, but better at communicating, a less narcissistic, bombastic, and combative a speaker. His arrogance just flows from his mouth. He worries about things that just don't matter like crowd sizes and his commentary is much to be desired. It's too bad given he seems to be implementing policies that may well help this nation in the future. If he wants a second term, he needs to hammer out these trade deals before they start hurting. They will start hurting given the nature of our economic relationship with China. China is too big a market to cut us off from.

As far as the racial garbage, for me it was worse under Obama. People seem to forget how much racial bigotry and bad behavior occurred during Obama on both sides of the spectrum.Not from Obama himself, but all the people supporting him and against him. This whole rise in racism occurred during Obama and yet they're making it seem like it was a Trump thing because he's a Republican and an easy target for the Democrats to convince America he's a racist. At least I'm not hearing the random slurs and racial infighting all around me as Obama tried to dance between two dueling opponents when some incident occurred the media turned into a racial event. It was painful watching Obama try to be fair to both sides making neither side happy. Blacks never thought he did enough, whites always tried to make it seem like he was being racist saying anything. With Trump the right mostly ignores what he says and the left have always tried to paint any Republican as a racist. In fact, most of the rhetoric online I see writes Republican, "RepubliKKKan." Which is just horse crap. It's why I don't buy the garbage Riverdog is buying into. I've seen ever single Republican president from Reagan painted as a racist by the Democrats and their supporters. This is just par for the course regardless of what Trump has done in his life. They parse his words looking for any opening, then put the racist label on him and push it as hard as they can, just like the sexist label.

A couple comments on your post above,

1. I'm pretty sure the cheating was before he married Melania but I could be wrong.

2. I'm not a big fan of how he says things either but with the media giving him 93% negative coverage he has to tout his own horn otherwise no one would know what he's accomplishing. I have often said to people, "your actions are speaking so loud that I can't hear the words coming out of your mouth." I liken this to Trump. His actions are way out front of his rhetoric in my opinion.

The rest I agree with you 100% on (not that I really disagree with anything you wrote here). I hate the politics of division that the Left constantly promotes.

[Aseahawkfan]

I thought it was you that said the government practically runs itself regardless of who is president. That is a perfect example of the deep state. Also, could be why the NSA didn't know Trump invited Putin to the white house. They are used to things being as they are and not moving very fast at all.

It runs itself because it was built to do so by The Founders of the nation. I in no way implied it ran itself because of some "deep state" influence. The Constitution was built so that the government would not be meddling in the affairs of the people to the degree that they are and no one person or group would hold so much power that they were above the nation. It was genius government construction that makes it so the nation runs itself.

You of all people must have read on the Constitution, its structural, pluralism, and the goal of the Founders to create a government paralyzed by infighting. It was literally their goal to create a government that did not change much unless a true consensus brought people together to take care of something. Otherwise, this divisiveness is a built in part of the system, not something that needs to be eliminated. I always chuckle when I hear crap like "why don't they work together" or similar crap. I keep wishing someone would explain to the fools calling for "unity" that it was not intended.

A couple comments on your post above,

1. I'm pretty sure the cheating was before he married Melania but I could be wrong.

Definitely wrong. He cheated on Ivana Trump, his first wife, with Marla Maples, his second wife. Trump has always been a cheater. It's literally a known trait of the man. No one cares in his usual groups, but a segment of America cares. All his wives knew they were trophy wives agreeing to marry Trump for money. The dates for one of his other affairs of which we only know a few is when he was married to Melania. He's been doing it for years. He doesn't care and he thinks Americans are stupid for caring. Normally he doesn't worry about paying women off because his wives don't care as long as they aren't embarrassed. I'm pretty sure you'll see a divorce as soon as he leaves The White House with a nice pre-nup payment to Melania per his usual agreement. Not a big deal save that he is president and the moral police care.

2. I'm not a big fan of how he says things either but with the media giving him 93% negative coverage he has to tout his own horn otherwise no one would know what he's accomplishing. I have often said to people, "your actions are speaking so loud that I can't hear the words coming out of your mouth." I liken this to Trump. His actions are way out front of his rhetoric in my opinion.

Yeah. The media doesn't help cherry-picking everything he says to the point you have crazy people like hawktawk thinking he's the most evil president in history and most evil man in the world and he hasn't done anything near as bad as past presidents he holds up as a good people. When a guy that the worst can be said of him is he is crude and brutally honest is considered more evil than presidents that started questionable wars, conducted black budget operations that murdered school children and teachers, lied on the witness stand and sold out 10,000 Bosnians to make a deal with Serbian militants, and signed more drone assassinations than any president in history and made a deal with Iran that lead to the murder of our soldiers, that person's perspective is deluded.

The rest I agree with you 100% on (not that I really disagree with anything you wrote here). I hate the politics of division that the Left constantly promotes.

I don't mind the division. I expect it. It's the hypocrisy that makes me sick. The media calls Trump a liar, while they lie themselves. They use words like dignity and goodness, while they do the same dirty garbage as the party their against. The liberals pretend they're good people, while they push policies that will hurt the Middle Class more than help them making more people dependent on the government, the ultimate goal of socialism. The Democrats offer so few quality solutions. Their policies impoverish us while they pretend they are helping humanity. They act like like they're not racist, while they use words like "white privilege" and paint all cops as racist when they are in a shooting that doesn't go as they think it should. I can barely stand the hypocrisy.

I listen to all this drivel from the left and continue to vote right with capitalism, conservatism, and the like. The looney left would have us slaves to the state, owning no property, and having our life decided by bureaucrats from our education to our jobs like real socialist societies do when they are implemented. The lies about "free college" and medical are so far from the truth that it sickens me. I wish more Americans would research how these systems work and how they are funded, then look how that will affect their paycheck and lifestyle. And movements like "Black LIves Matter" and "Occupy Wall Street" are nothing more than destructive movements that would destroy this nation. Both of the groups racist and classist aimed at attacking a particular group and no one wants to offend them because the Democrats have married themselves to such groups and their pathetic attempts to attack particular groups.

The entire hypocrisy of words the Democrats tolerate like pro-black, feminist, and the 1% are by their very nature attacks and prejudicial movements that if practiced in any obvious fashion by the right would be relentlessly attacked until they were all forced to hide. It's unreal.

[idhawkman]

Your last paragraph I call politics of division so we are on the same wavelength but maybe not the same terminology.

I grew up in an age where we called people of a certain color the N word, then Negro, then black, then African American and I'm not sure what will be next. The problem is that they don't want to be labeled because it is racist. That said, they don't want to get rid of labels because of things like Affirmative Action and other programs setup to help people of that race. IMO, there's no way to ever get rid of racism until we get rid of all the labels. I love putting down as my race: Human, because that is the race I belong to.

On another note, I see where Trump has achieved 50% favorability ratings in the recent Rassmussen poll. His support among black voters is now at 29% which is almost double what he had in 2016 (15%). With numbers like that, I feel the media is going to really ratchet up the rhetoric from now until the mid terms are over.

[Aseahawkfan]

Your last paragraph I call politics of division so we are on the same wavelength but maybe not the same terminology.

I grew up in an age where we called people of a certain color the N word, then Negro, then black, then African American and I'm not sure what will be next. The problem is that they don't want to be labeled because it is racist. That said, they don't want to get rid of labels because of things like Affirmative Action and other programs setup to help people of that race. IMO, there's no way to ever get rid of racism until we get rid of all the labels. I love putting down as my race: Human, because that is the race I belong to.

On another note, I see where Trump has achieved 50% favorability ratings in the recent Rassmussen poll. His support among black voters is now at 29% which is almost double what he had in 2016 (15%). With numbers like that, I feel the media is going to really ratchet up the rhetoric from now until the mid terms are over.

The truth the left never talks about as they work to keep the Americans of African descent vote is that immigration, legal and illegal, is hurting folk of African descent more than other groups. The big discussion with employment for folks of African descent is they are usually last in and first out. Who are they competing for jobs against? Asian and Euro-Americans and immigrants. Immigrants are a big drag on employment for low and high skill labor against poor Americans of African descent. The Democrats don't care. They know their bread will be buttered by the Latin vote. That is where the growth numbers are for votes.

And you're right, I put other. Half my family is Mexican Descent, half is various European mutt. I don't put other for race. The whole race definition was created to be divisive and it continues being divisive. I'm a human. Physical characteristics don't mean much. I'd rather to get to know the person to find out who they are then tag them by some moniker based on race or what not. I work with plenty of African people at my work, they are not a all like. They don't look like and the only common factor is dark skin, that's it. Facial features are different, body structures, languages, culture, history, family relations, and the like all different depending on where they're from and America wants all that distilled into a single word. Pathetic.

Even Americans of African descent are different depending on what part the United States they are from. East coast dude that grew up in New York very different form a dude that grew up in California who is different from a dude that grew up in Virginia. Yet one word somehow makes them all the same. Just mindless "benevolent" racism by the left disguised as tolerance and understanding. I call a man or woman by their name and get to know their personality. Screw the whole race garbage people are trying to sell. Divisive and inaccurate to say the least.

[burrrton]

Physical characteristics don't mean much. I'd rather to get to know the person to find out who they are then tag them by some moniker based on race or what not. I work with plenty of African people at my work, they are not a all like. They don't look like and the only common factor is dark skin, that's it. Facial features are different, body structures, languages, culture, history, family relations, and the like all different depending on where they're from and America wants all that distilled into a single word. Pathetic.

Yep- consider culturally: does the average "African American" in the US have more in common with an 'African' from literally any country on that continent or a valley girl from San Fernando?

It's not close, and it's why I think Identity Politics is on its way out as a political strategy (regardless of which side uses it).

[Aseahawkfan]

This Lebron tweet is exactly what I"m talking about, Id Hawkman. Trump is so petty that he has to take shots at a guy that just opened up a school in his community to grind an old axe. It's hard to support a president representing us as a people that act in a petty manner. Trump puts himself above the office. He makes us look petty. I don't care if he thinks Lebron or other athletes insult our nation by kneeling or not showing up to The White House. It's up to him as president not to represent us as being bitter and petty about people acting in a disagreeable manner. We do not answer pettiness with even cruder pettiness.

Trump lacks a sense of the duties of his office which include representing the American people in a fashion that doesn't embarrass so many of us. Twitter wars and crude insults against citizens he doesn't care for is not the way to do that.

This is exactly why I can't vote for the guy. Just represents us in such a petty, irresponsible, crude, narcissistic manner. No sense of the office he holds and the need to act with class and respect in the face of rudeness and disagreeable behavior. Even Bush Jr. who was attacked and ridiculed constantly understood the responsibility of the office and didn't get involved in petty exchanges with his critics. It's a sad state that the only president willing to push back on bad trade deals, improve our economic competitiveness, try to do something about the irresponsible and bad immigration policies, protect American jobs, and the like is such a crude, petty person.

[Hawktawk]

Manafort laundered 30 million in money he got from an Oligarchy and also acted as a foreign agent in the same timeframe without registering. He's going to be convicted most likely and faces another trial either way. Hes a slime ball who ran the Trump campaign in the crucial 2 months when he beat back the strong challenge of Ted Cruz to secure enough delegates to be nominated. But of course the Trump WH has been trying to distance themselves from him since his indictment.

I'm sure he is well aware of the Trump conspiracy with Russia having attended the Trump tower meeting we now find out Trump had prior knowledge of despite multiple denials. Former America's mayor Rudy Giuliani who is now a complete buffoon chump for Trump let slip the other day that there was a second pre-meeting with these characters as well. Trump being up all night tweeting multiple times, telling sessions to end the probe shows he knows the walls are closing in. Its about the public opinion and the midterms as Mueller has indicated he doesn't plan to indict a sitting president. But as I've said his report will be devastating, it will reveal things we have never heard of, extremely damning compelling evidence of multiple crimes, financial misdeeds, conspiracy with Russia, maybe even evidence of the aquatic water sports tape. Then we will see what happens to public opinion and the congress. Mueller hasn't had his say and Trump and his allies have had most of 2 years to use him as a punching bag but its going to change when he speaks. Then we will see what kind of america we have left, whether there are more people with integrity and love of country or not.


Oh and Asaeahawk don't take your little cheap shots about me being "crazy" when I'm not here to defend myself in person. I think if you and I met face to face you would see it quite a bit differently. I'm a highly intelligent, well spoken, well versed in politics for decades, a personality plus guy and a lifelong conservative republican. Its just when I heard this guy say John McCain wasn't a war hero because he got captured, develop 5th grade derogatory nicknames for opposing candidates, talk about his junk in a presidential debate, trash former republican presidents he doesn't hold a candle to I was done with him. And that was long before i found out he was elected with a certain push over the line by our greatest geopolitical foe who he might as well have given a BJ in helsinki he was so fearful of crossing his puppet master.. I'm pissed and alarmed, fearful for the america i've grown up in turning to a banana republic where the congress and l;aw enforcement do the bidding of the would be despot. If that makes me crazy in your eyes then fine. I see myself as one of the very few in my lifelong party whose head isn't so far up my ass I need a windshield wiper on my belly button to see where the hell i'm going. As long as I leve Illl never understand the attraction to the POS.
Go Mueller!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hawktawk]

This Lebron tweet is exactly what I"m talking about, Id Hawkman. Trump is so petty that he has to take shots at a guy that just opened up a school in his community to grind an old axe. It's hard to support a president representing us as a people that act in a petty manner. Trump puts himself above the office. He makes us look petty. I don't care if he thinks Lebron or other athletes insult our nation by kneeling or not showing up to The White House. It's up to him as president not to represent us as being bitter and petty about people acting in a disagreeable manner. We do not answer pettiness with even cruder pettiness.

Trump lacks a sense of the duties of his office which include representing the American people in a fashion that doesn't embarrass so many of us. Twitter wars and crude insults against citizens he doesn't care for is not the way to do that.

This is exactly why I can't vote for the guy. Just represents us in such a petty, irresponsible, crude, narcissistic manner. No sense of the office he holds and the need to act with class and respect in the face of rudeness and disagreeable behavior. Even Bush Jr. who was attacked and ridiculed constantly understood the responsibility of the office and didn't get involved in petty exchanges with his critics. It's a sad state that the only president willing to push back on bad trade deals, improve our economic competitiveness, try to do something about the irresponsible and bad immigration policies, protect American jobs, and the like is such a crude, petty person.

You voted for him dude. Quit lying. You have the talking points down pat.

Act with class in the face of rudeness and disagreeable behavior???????? Whats rude and disagreeable about calling this utter POS what he is?He wrote the book on that type of behavior. there isn't an iota of class in his entire financial bankruptcy acrobat empire. He's so unpresidential its ridiculous. Worst embarrassment ever as president. Id take Obama back at this point, Carter, whoever. At least they had the ability to behave in a dignified manner.

[idhawkman]

I debated whether to respond to the last few posts because it has all been said before. I encourage those posters to watch this video regarding Lebron's commens. https://www.facebook.com/deneenCRTV/videos/371499276718383/

Regarding Trump being petty or not with his tweets, I think two of you made my point when you pointed to George W. Bush's time in office. He was the first president to hold an MBA. Not only did he have an MBA he had it from an Ivy league school. The media made him out to be dumb by reporting over and over that he was had low grades or any little mistake he made. (death by a thousand cuts). Trump refuses to let this happen to him. He will counter punch anyone who punches at him and it is about time someone from the right did this. The right has been playing by queensbury rules far too long while the left hurl outrageous attacks at them.

Regarding the conduct of being a president. We've seen what that gives us over the last 50 years. Nothing. Same issues in the 70s and 80s are with us today. Fianlly someone is doing something about it and what makes up Trump in his demeanor is what makes it possible for him to do the hard lifting that has been layered over by the last 4 administrations since Reagan.

[RiverDog]

This Lebron tweet is exactly what I"m talking about, Id Hawkman. Trump is so petty that he has to take shots at a guy that just opened up a school in his community to grind an old axe. It's hard to support a president representing us as a people that act in a petty manner. Trump puts himself above the office. He makes us look petty. I don't care if he thinks Lebron or other athletes insult our nation by kneeling or not showing up to The White House. It's up to him as president not to represent us as being bitter and petty about people acting in a disagreeable manner. We do not answer pettiness with even cruder pettiness.

Trump lacks a sense of the duties of his office which include representing the American people in a fashion that doesn't embarrass so many of us. Twitter wars and crude insults against citizens he doesn't care for is not the way to do that.

This is exactly why I can't vote for the guy. Just represents us in such a petty, irresponsible, crude, narcissistic manner. No sense of the office he holds and the need to act with class and respect in the face of rudeness and disagreeable behavior. Even Bush Jr. who was attacked and ridiculed constantly understood the responsibility of the office and didn't get involved in petty exchanges with his critics. It's a sad state that the only president willing to push back on bad trade deals, improve our economic competitiveness, try to do something about the irresponsible and bad immigration policies, protect American jobs, and the like is such a crude, petty person.

I agree 100% with ASF's characterizations of DJT, and I will add something that he overlooked, and that's Trump's dishonesty and lack of credibility. There are so many of his statements or claims of his that are either grossly inaccurate, cherry picked to only show information that he believes will support his cause, or outright lies that I cannot believe a single thing the man says unless it is something I know to be true or that there is some sort of corroborating information to support it. He is also IMO a very poor manager that doesn't appear to think things through and on many occasions is on completely different wave lengths than those of his closest advisors. His administration does not present itself as a unified front. He has the tendency to just "wing it" with very little preparation, whether it be a summit meeting or a news conference. Although I have some serious objections to parts of his immigration and trade policies which in itself would be enough to justify my not voting for the man, I don't have very many other differences with his politics as I consider myself a fiscal conservative that has yet to vote for a Dem for national office.

I don't understand this fight that he's picking with LeBron James, but I suspect that it has something to do with playing to his base for political gain as is the motivation for his interference with the NFL's controversy involving the anthem policy. He seems to be sticking his thumb in every pie, not something he was elected to do. I am almost to the point where I am in support of the player's position on the anthem solely due to Trump's attempt to leverage the owners.

My opinion of the Manafort trial is that I think he's in deep trouble. There are multiple witnesses that have said that Manafort was deeply and intimately involved in the financial misdoings that he's being accused of doing, there are numerous documents with his signature on them, and today there was a witness that testified that he participated in those crimes with Manafort, which could be used to prove intent. But we'll see. I'm still maintaining an open mind regarding the evidence until I hear the defense's argument that addresses it, but there's little doubt that Manafort's team has their work cut out for them.

[Aseahawkfan]

Manafort laundered 30 million in money he got from an Oligarchy and also acted as a foreign agent in the same timeframe without registering. He's going to be convicted most likely and faces another trial either way. Hes a slime ball who ran the Trump campaign in the crucial 2 months when he beat back the strong challenge of Ted Cruz to secure enough delegates to be nominated. But of course the Trump WH has been trying to distance themselves from him since his indictment.

I'm sure he is well aware of the Trump conspiracy with Russia having attended the Trump tower meeting we now find out Trump had prior knowledge of despite multiple denials. Former America's mayor Rudy Giuliani who is now a complete buffoon chump for Trump let slip the other day that there was a second pre-meeting with these characters as well. Trump being up all night tweeting multiple times, telling sessions to end the probe shows he knows the walls are closing in. Its about the public opinion and the midterms as Mueller has indicated he doesn't plan to indict a sitting president. But as I've said his report will be devastating, it will reveal things we have never heard of, extremely damning compelling evidence of multiple crimes, financial misdeeds, conspiracy with Russia, maybe even evidence of the aquatic water sports tape. Then we will see what happens to public opinion and the congress. Mueller hasn't had his say and Trump and his allies have had most of 2 years to use him as a punching bag but its going to change when he speaks. Then we will see what kind of america we have left, whether there are more people with integrity and love of country or not.


Oh and Asaeahawk don't take your little cheap shots about me being "crazy" when I'm not here to defend myself in person. I think if you and I met face to face you would see it quite a bit differently. I'm a highly intelligent, well spoken, well versed in politics for decades, a personality plus guy and a lifelong conservative republican. Its just when I heard this guy say John McCain wasn't a war hero because he got captured, develop 5th grade derogatory nicknames for opposing candidates, talk about his junk in a presidential debate, trash former republican presidents he doesn't hold a candle to I was done with him. And that was long before i found out he was elected with a certain push over the line by our greatest geopolitical foe who he might as well have given a BJ in helsinki he was so fearful of crossing his puppet master.. I'm pissed and alarmed, fearful for the america i've grown up in turning to a banana republic where the congress and l;aw enforcement do the bidding of the would be despot. If that makes me crazy in your eyes then fine. I see myself as one of the very few in my lifelong party whose head isn't so far up my ass I need a windshield wiper on my belly button to see where the hell i'm going. As long as I leve Illl never understand the attraction to the POS.
Go Mueller!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then stop exaggerating. I get it. You hate Trump. You dislike the man more than most. But just stop exaggerating, ok. Stop Trump into more than he is. He's a petty, narcissistic man of fairly low character. But he's not some guy you used words for reserved for the likes of Hitler or Stalin or Jeffrey Dahmer. Fight him in whatever way you feel like, but stop losing it. If you know politics, then act like it. The only way we get this country back under control is not to lose our cool and start exaggerating the situation we're in. This nation will run better if Americans act in a sensible manner demanding accountability from all parties in public politics rather than this game were involved in of vilifying each side in such an exaggerated manner that leads to fighting over really dumb, false ideas that cloud the real issues we need to fix.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree 100% with ASF's characterizations of DJT, and I will add something that he overlooked, and that's Trump's dishonesty and lack of credibility. There are so many of his statements or claims of his that are either grossly inaccurate, cherry picked to only show information that he believes will support his cause, or outright lies that I cannot believe a single thing the man says unless it is something I know to be true or that there is some sort of corroborating information to support it. He is also IMO a very poor manager that doesn't appear to think things through and on many occasions is on completely different wave lengths than those of his closest advisors. His administration does not present itself as a unified front. He has the tendency to just "wing it" with very little preparation, whether it be a summit meeting or a news conference. Although I have some serious objections to parts of his immigration and trade policies which in itself would be enough to justify my not voting for the man, I don't have very many other differences with his politics as I consider myself a fiscal conservative that has yet to vote for a Dem for national office.

I don't understand this fight that he's picking with LeBron James, but I suspect that it has something to do with playing to his base for political gain as is the motivation for his interference with the NFL's controversy involving the anthem policy. He seems to be sticking his thumb in every pie, not something he was elected to do. I am almost to the point where I am in support of the player's position on the anthem solely due to Trump's attempt to leverage the owners.

My opinion of the Manafort trial is that I think he's in deep trouble. There are multiple witnesses that have said that Manafort was deeply and intimately involved in the financial misdoings that he's being accused of doing, there are numerous documents with his signature on them, and today there was a witness that testified that he participated in those crimes with Manafort, which could be used to prove intent. But we'll see. I'm still maintaining an open mind regarding the evidence until I hear the defense's argument that addresses it, but there's little doubt that Manafort's team has their work cut out for them.

I don't even consider honest and politics to go well together. Politicians lie all the time. Most of them are just better at it than Trump who does it in such a blatant, grandiose, narcissistic manner.

I listened to Hilary talk about being "good", which was a total lie. Made me sick to here her use the word. Watched her lie about her email server, how she handled the embassy attack, and so many other political events. Hilary's a big time liar and not as good as her husband.

I listened to Obama tell us about this Iran deal like it was a good thing. Total garbage deal and delusional thinking on his part. Obama was a very careful speaker though, one of his strengths. He knew how to walk that line that makes people feel good.

I listened to Bush Jr. tell me that Iraq threatened our freedom knowing it was a lie. Small nation with no navy or capability to field any army close to large enough to threaten us much less transport and supply them. Totally ridiculous. I knew what he was doing with those wars. I can see a map and know all the political agendas served by those wars.

I listened to Romney attack Obamacare when he was the governor that instituted the same program in his state and backtrack on some of his social stances when running for president.

If you want to say Trump lies in a way that is unconvincing to you to and makes you uncomfortable, have at it. But if you trust any of these presidents or politicians, you're being way too gullible. You want to be president, you better be able to lie in a convincing way. Trump doesn't do it very well at all. I haven't read on a president that wasn't dishonest, though most were better at maintaining their credibility. Nature of the job to have to be a liar and manipulator. I like to look at whether their manipulation is towards an effective goal instead of looking for honesty or credibility. What game are you playing with this speech or statement is more how I like to look at it. The problem with Trump that his predecessors did not share is that Trump doesn't make sure he vets his statement with his press and writers before Twittering or talking. He's too off the cuff and that doesn't work in a place like Washington where he and his advisers are in constant motion and conversation. He doesn't have enough sense to wait until they brief him or he briefs them before he talks because He's Trump and Trump does what Trump wants to do when Trump wants to do it.

[idhawkman]

Remember this if nothing else.

After 13 hours with Americans in harms way, not one when turned or one prop spun to help those guys who were hung out to dry. As you all know, I've worked side by side with the same folks that were hung out to dry both the military one and the diplomatic ones. In my book, this was an unforgiveable inaction by the powers in charge.

It is now very apparent that the Intel agencies were weaponized against a political foe in our elections. This tears at the very fabric of our nation. Again, an unforgiveable act.

Also consider that the President and his cabinet get a daily brief of which many times they can not mention why they do certain things or let on that they know certain things.

Finally, I would love to know what is so grossly over exaggerated or lied about by Trump. Are there any specifics or just inuendo and hearsay?

Edited: Forgot to add that the Tarrifs are working. The Chinese market is down 27% over the last 4 months while our GDP grew at 4.1% and the Dallas and Atlanta feds are predicting over a 5% GDP growth rate for Q3. China is now starting to talk to us.

[RiverDog]

I understand that all politicians are dishonest as it's almost a prerequisite for the job and agree about HRC as she isn't trustworthy either, which is one of the reasons why I didn't vote for her, but Trump takes dishonesty to an entirely different level. There's literally nothing on any subject that I can trust him on.

Couple that with all the things that you noted about his personality and behavior and you get a completely unacceptable person of whom I wouldn't trust to manage a taco wagon.

[idhawkman]

I understand that all politicians are dishonest as it's almost a prerequisite for the job and agree about HRC as she isn't trustworthy either, which is one of the reasons why I didn't vote for her, but Trump takes dishonesty to an entirely different level. There's literally nothing on any subject that I can trust him on.

Couple that with all the things that you noted about his personality and behavior and you get a completely unacceptable person of whom I wouldn't trust to manage a taco wagon.

I do not understand why you think he takes lying to a whole new level. Can you give 3 examples of his lies that do this?

[idhawkman]

So this is where the left is but Trump is so much worse? SMH.

A group of White people yelling at black and hispanic cops and a black woman to "Stop White Fascism" while they were trying to have breakfast. This is the alternative they offer to Trump being "petty"? SMH

https://www.facebook.com/comedianbryandey/videos/975210079348954/

[burrrton]

So this is where the left is but Trump is so much worse? SMH.

A group of White people yelling at black and hispanic cops and a black woman to "Stop White Fascism" while they were trying to have breakfast. This is the alternative they offer to Trump being "petty"? SMH

https://www.facebook.com/comedianbryandey/videos/975210079348954/

This brings to mind what is fast becoming a tired phrase: "All the Left had to do was not be batsh*t nuts".

If the Dems/left could simply behave as if they had a shred of sanity left, they'd take over 90 seats in the Senate and 90% of the House (and they still may for all I know). But this looniness is steeling opposition to them and inspiring support of Trump.

I watch crap like that and can't help but wonder if we're going to have Trump in the WH for the rest of his life.

[idhawkman]

This brings to mind what is fast becoming a tired phrase: "All the Left had to do was not be batsh*t nuts".

If the Dems/left could simply behave as if they had a shred of sanity left, they'd take over 90 seats in the Senate and 90% of the House (and they still may for all I know). But this looniness is steeling opposition to them and inspiring support of Trump.

I watch crap like that and can't help but wonder if we're going to have Trump in the WH for the rest of his life.

Quite the quandry isn't it? The choices available are:

1. Vote for the Socialist, scream down your opponent, batshit, left candidate.

2. Vote for the "petty" Trump party

3. Vote for some nobody effectively giving #1 half a vote.

Hmmm.... lets see, do I want an Argentina in the US or.... Someone who brags a bit? What to do, what to do....

[burrrton]

Hmmm.... lets see, do I want an Argentina in the US or.... Someone who brags a bit? What to do, what to do....

Brags a bit?? Haven't you been reading around here, ID- he's LITERALLY TEH HITLAR AND WE'RE IN A NEW HOLOCAUST BECAUSE HE'S A VICIOUS VILE MOST EVIL MAN IN HISTORY!

Wake up, man- it's all so obvious!

[RiverDog]

I do not understand why you think he takes lying to a whole new level. Can you give 3 examples of his lies that do this?

Oh, for Crissakes, Idahawk! Most news organizations have to dedicate an entire department to fact check the POTUS. Many are so absurd that a child can tell that they are false. But since you seem to be ignorant of his constant propensity of his to either misstate facts or tell outright lies, here's your 3 examples:

As fires grow to historic sizes in California, President Trump tweeted that the state is “foolishly” diverting “vast amounts of water from the North” into the Pacific Ocean instead of using them to fight its wildfires. The state’s “bad environmental laws” are to blame, he added.
The tweets baffled state officials, who quickly pointed out that water supplies are not the problem

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... 06ceb15239

“122 vicious prisoners, released by the Obama Administration from Gitmo, have returned to the battlefield,” he wrote. “Just another terrible decision!”
But the vast majority of those 122 detainees — about 93 percent — were released before Obama took office.

According to a September 2016 report from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, 113 of those 122 detainees who have been confirmed as re-engaging were released from Guantanamo under George W. Bush's administration.

His own White House staff had to pull his foot out of his mouth by saying this: Asked about the claim this afternoon at a news conference, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said, "obviously, the president meant in totality," not just under Obama.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fact-ch ... d=45960699

"U.S. Steel just announced that they are building six new steel mills," Trump said July 31 in Tampa. "And that number is soon going to be lifted, but I'm not allowed to say that, so I won't." Trump repeated the company would open six major facilities at a roundtable in Minnesota on June 20 and again at a lunch with members of Congress on June 26.

That was one mill down from when he said the company was going to open seven on July 27.

That would be huge news, given the company only has four steelmaking facilities in the United States. But there’s no evidence on their website that any new mills are on the horizon.

Meghan Cox, a spokeswoman for U.S. Steel, told us that Trump wasn’t privy to any exclusive information. "All of our operational changes have been publicly announced and all information shared with the federal government has been properly disclosed and made available on our website," Cox said.

And a bonus fib for you. From a speech in Mt. Pleasant, WI, on June 28th, 2018:

"Watch those GDP numbers," Trump said. "We started off at a very low number, and right now we hit a 3.2," or 3.2 percentage growth compared to the last quarter on an annualized basis. "Nobody thought that was possible."

Trump’s first problem is a straightforward factual inaccuracy. He said that "right now," growth was 3.2 percent. However, the most recent growth number, for the first quarter of 2018, wasn’t 3.2 percent. It was considerably lower, at 2.0 percent. (The next growth number, for the second quarter of 2018, won’t be available for several more weeks.)

On Trump’s watch, the U.S. did see one quarter of 3.2 percent growth -- the third quarter of 2017. By now, that data point is three quarters old.
Arguably, the bigger problem with Trump’s assertion is the idea that "nobody thought that was possible." Here, Trump is confusing 3 percent growth during a single quarter with 3 percent growth sustained over an entire year.

Due to normal variations in the economy, meeting the 3 percent threshold for a quarter is not uncommon. But it has been almost a decade and a half since the U.S. economy grew at a 3 percent pace over an entire year.

Those are just the most recent. Whether or not those statements of his are lies or not is debatable because there is no way of knowing whether or not Trump knew they were false when he said them. But at the very least, the man talks out of his arse and cannot be believed.

[RiverDog]

This brings to mind what is fast becoming a tired phrase: "All the Left had to do was not be batsh*t nuts".

If the Dems/left could simply behave as if they had a shred of sanity left, they'd take over 90 seats in the Senate and 90% of the House (and they still may for all I know). But this looniness is steeling opposition to them and inspiring support of Trump.

I watch crap like that and can't help but wonder if we're going to have Trump in the WH for the rest of his life.

And you're calling the left looney?

But I do agree with your premise. There's an old saying about fools like Donald Trump: Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself. The left does not need to put any distance between Trump and themselves as Trump is doing that for them. All they have to do is present a viable alternative to the public and not some reptilian like they did with HRC and they'll bury his arse forever. All they're doing is giving Trump supporters a reason to turn out. If they continue to go off the deep end they'll lose the moderates.

Based on some of the early results in primaries and special elections, it would appear that the R's are in trouble. The most recent evidence is in Ohio in a district won by both Trump and Romney by double digits. The R candidate, backed by Trump, is clinging to a less than 1% lead in a district where he should have blown away the opposition.

The midterms are still 3 months away and the aforementioned election results are from the primary. But results like those can provide a strong motivational factor for the D's. We'll see how it all pans out in November.

[idhawkman]

Oh, for Crissakes, Idahawk! Most news organizations have to dedicate an entire department to fact check the POTUS. Many are so absurd that a child can tell that they are false. But since you seem to be ignorant of his constant propensity of his to either misstate facts or tell outright lies, here's your 3 examples:

As fires grow to historic sizes in California, President Trump tweeted that the state is “foolishly” diverting “vast amounts of water from the North” into the Pacific Ocean instead of using them to fight its wildfires. The state’s “bad environmental laws” are to blame, he added.
The tweets baffled state officials, who quickly pointed out that water supplies are not the problem

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... 06ceb15239

“122 vicious prisoners, released by the Obama Administration from Gitmo, have returned to the battlefield,” he wrote. “Just another terrible decision!”
But the vast majority of those 122 detainees — about 93 percent — were released before Obama took office.

According to a September 2016 report from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, 113 of those 122 detainees who have been confirmed as re-engaging were released from Guantanamo under George W. Bush's administration.

His own White House staff had to pull his foot out of his mouth by saying this: Asked about the claim this afternoon at a news conference, White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said, "obviously, the president meant in totality," not just under Obama.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fact-ch ... d=45960699

"U.S. Steel just announced that they are building six new steel mills," Trump said July 31 in Tampa. "And that number is soon going to be lifted, but I'm not allowed to say that, so I won't." Trump repeated the company would open six major facilities at a roundtable in Minnesota on June 20 and again at a lunch with members of Congress on June 26.

That was one mill down from when he said the company was going to open seven on July 27.

That would be huge news, given the company only has four steelmaking facilities in the United States. But there’s no evidence on their website that any new mills are on the horizon.

Meghan Cox, a spokeswoman for U.S. Steel, told us that Trump wasn’t privy to any exclusive information. "All of our operational changes have been publicly announced and all information shared with the federal government has been properly disclosed and made available on our website," Cox said.

And a bonus fib for you. From a speech in Mt. Pleasant, WI, on June 28th, 2018:

"Watch those GDP numbers," Trump said. "We started off at a very low number, and right now we hit a 3.2," or 3.2 percentage growth compared to the last quarter on an annualized basis. "Nobody thought that was possible."

Trump’s first problem is a straightforward factual inaccuracy. He said that "right now," growth was 3.2 percent. However, the most recent growth number, for the first quarter of 2018, wasn’t 3.2 percent. It was considerably lower, at 2.0 percent. (The next growth number, for the second quarter of 2018, won’t be available for several more weeks.)

On Trump’s watch, the U.S. did see one quarter of 3.2 percent growth -- the third quarter of 2017. By now, that data point is three quarters old.
Arguably, the bigger problem with Trump’s assertion is the idea that "nobody thought that was possible." Here, Trump is confusing 3 percent growth during a single quarter with 3 percent growth sustained over an entire year.

Due to normal variations in the economy, meeting the 3 percent threshold for a quarter is not uncommon. But it has been almost a decade and a half since the U.S. economy grew at a 3 percent pace over an entire year.

Those are just the most recent. Whether or not those statements of his are lies or not is debatable because there is no way of knowing whether or not Trump knew they were false when he said them. But at the very least, the man talks out of his arse and cannot be believed.

Before I address these I want to make sure, these are your best examples of him lying to the point you can't trust him on anything?

[idhawkman]

Based on some of the early results in primaries and special elections, it would appear that the R's are in trouble. The most recent evidence is in Ohio in a district won by both Trump and Romney by double digits. The R candidate, backed by Trump, is clinging to a less than 1% lead in a district where he should have blown away the opposition.

The midterms are still 3 months away and the aforementioned election results are from the primary. But results like those can provide a strong motivational factor for the D's. We'll see how it all pans out in November.

You know that is a really bad example, right? Two major reasons it is a bad example.

1. The D candidate is running as a republican and not distancing himself from Trump at all. Same thing the D in WV did a few months back.

2. The biggest reason though is the turnout for special elections. In 2016 that district had over 350,000 votes but in yesterday's election they barely crossed the 200,000 vote total. That is with the Republicans being complacent and the Dems supposedly all up in arms. When Trump stumped for the R in that race earlier this week he was down by a good margin in the polls and now he is leading by 1700+ votes? Absentee and early ballots of about 8,000 is all that is left to count which will be counted on Aug 18th. So at least the media will have the next 10 days to hold this up as an omen of the mid terms which will actually invigorate the Repubs to turn out in bigger numbers.

If you notice, all the candidates that the socialist from NY, Ocasio-Cortez, campaigned for got their butt whooped in their own primaries. Next month when Trump starts campaigning for 60 days straight for all the repubican candidates and turns this into a national election it will be a different outcome than the Ohio district from last night.

Add to the above, the new information now coming out about the DOJ with Bruce Ohr colluding with Nellie (his wife an employee of Fusion GPS), Chirstopher Steele (Former British spy) and Peter Strzok (FBI agent and Mueller investigator) against DOJ policies and hiding the esculpatory evidence from the FISA judges and the right will be envigorated in the mid terms.

[RiverDog]

Before I address these I want to make sure, these are your best examples of him lying to the point you can't trust him on anything?

Not necessarily. As I said, the ones I posted are the most recent and readily available and constitute a very small sampling of why I can't trust anything that comes out of his mouth, and I'm not going to perform for you by searching the hundreds if not thousands of innacurate tweets and statements from Trump since he became a candidate simply to satisfy your need for the "perfect" example.

[RiverDog]

You know that is a really bad example, right? Two major reasons it is a bad example.

1. The D candidate is running as a republican and not distancing himself from Trump at all. Same thing the D in WV did a few months back.

2. The biggest reason though is the turnout for special elections. In 2016 that district had over 350,000 votes but in yesterday's election they barely crossed the 200,000 vote total. That is with the Republicans being complacent and the Dems supposedly all up in arms. When Trump stumped for the R in that race earlier this week he was down by a good margin in the polls and now he is leading by 1700+ votes? Absentee and early ballots of about 8,000 is all that is left to count which will be counted on Aug 18th. So at least the media will have the next 10 days to hold this up as an omen of the mid terms which will actually invigorate the Repubs to turn out in bigger numbers.

If you notice, all the candidates that the socialist from NY, Ocasio-Cortez, campaigned for got their butt whooped in their own primaries. Next month when Trump starts campaigning for 60 days straight for all the repubican candidates and turns this into a national election it will be a different outcome than the Ohio district from last night.

Add to the above, the new information now coming out about the DOJ with Bruce Ohr colluding with Nellie (his wife an employee of Fusion GPS), Chirstopher Steele (Former British spy) and Peter Strzok (FBI agent and Mueller investigator) against DOJ policies and hiding the esculpatory evidence from the FISA judges and the right will be envigorated in the mid terms.

Nice spin! You succeeded in spinning those results to fit within your very rigid POV. I prefer to remain a little more objective.

Like I said, they are just primary results and the mid terms are still nearly 3 months away, and I'm only stating my opinion of the feel I'm getting from those results (as well as other rumblings) and I don't feel the need to qualify that opinion. It's pointless to enter into a debate with you about them as you'll simply find some other spin that supports your POV.

[idhawkman]

Not necessarily. As I said, the ones I posted are the most recent and readily available and constitute a very small sampling of why I can't trust anything that comes out of his mouth, and I'm not going to perform for you by searching the hundreds if not thousands of innacurate tweets and statements from Trump since he became a candidate simply to satisfy your need for the "perfect" example.

Got it. I guess in your opinion he's so much worse than lying to the American people and parents of 4 diplomatic people in Benghazi Lybia, Lying about your health care coverage, Funding 2 state sponsors of terror, giving weapons to the drug lords and lying about it, and weaponizing the US Intel community to try and steal an election (http://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/400810-opinion-how-a-senior-justice-official-helped-dems-on-trump-russia-case).

Your examples of some controversial topics trumps the outright lies, deceit, subversion and other violations to such a degree that it is impossible to even think about voting for the guy. God forbid anyone trying to talk up the economy, making a valid point about the fires in Ca, and misrepresenting who let the most terrorist out of jail.

[idhawkman]

By the way, the numbers for the released prisoners and reengagement on the battlefield may have been manipulated by the Obama DNI (Clapper). Check out this entire article. https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/jan/25/cory-gardner/how-many-released-guantanamo-bay-prisoners-commit-/

[RiverDog]

Got it. I guess in your opinion he's so much worse than lying to the American people and parents of 4 diplomatic people in Benghazi Lybia, Lying about your health care coverage, Funding 2 state sponsors of terror, giving weapons to the drug lords and lying about it, and weaponizing the US Intel community to try and steal an election (http://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/400810-opinion-how-a-senior-justice-official-helped-dems-on-trump-russia-case).

Your examples of some controversial topics trumps the outright lies, deceit, subversion and other violations to such a degree that it is impossible to even think about voting for the guy. God forbid anyone trying to talk up the economy, making a valid point about the fires in Ca, and misrepresenting who let the most terrorist out of jail.

If that's the best you can do, ie defend Trump by virtue of the actions of others, then all I can say is that two wrongs don't make a right. It's an ages old, tired excuse given by children that got in trouble for staying out too late (but dad, everyone else was out late, too!). I honestly thought that you could do better than that.

And like I said before, points of which you keep missing, Trump's dishonesty and lack of credibility is only one of several reasons why I'll never vote for the POS.