SDNY pounces

[RiverDog]

My understanding is that there already is a substantial Amazon presence in NY, in fact they already employ 1800 people in NYC. The deal would have been 25,000, but still, 1800 high paying jobs (around $150K according to the radio program I listened to on the way home from work yesterday) is not insignificant.

Amazon is everywhere. They even have a presence in my relatively small community, with several hundred jobs (burrton may want to correct that estimate). Plus they're building a huge distribution facility near the Spokane airport. They are the 21st century's 500 lb gorilla.

But how does that explain AOC's gaff that because Amazon's HQ2 isn't coming to NY that they are now going to be flush with $3B they can spend on schools?

[c_hawkbob]

It doesn't, not claiming it did. In fact i was actually responding to Mack's statement that Amazon paid zero taxes there.

[Hawktawk]

Frankly I think there was a lot more going on here than political resistance . Amazon has stated they have no plans to seek another site but will continue to develop and expand existing sites. This might have to do with how the pr ramifications shake out with Bezos war with pecker, his settlement with his ex wife etc.
That said real estate speculators were way out over their skis in the anticipation of 25k high paying jobs and will be devastated. This Ocassio Cortez broad is dumb as a post bragging about killing a high tech job machine favored by well over 50% of long islanders , the type of ultra liberal loony toon that is a gift to a morally bankrupt president .

Boy do we need a third option, hopefully a strong republican primary challenge .

[RiverDog]

This Ocassio Cortez broad is dumb as a post bragging about killing a high tech job machine favored by well over 50% of long islanders , the type of ultra liberal loony toon that is a gift to a morally bankrupt president .

Boy do we need a third option, hopefully a strong republican primary challenge .

I honestly am baffled as to why the left is so anti Amazon. Those are high paying, "green" jobs they're offering and not some smoke stack industry. It's an anti capitalism, Occupy Wall Street surge that's driving the moderates away from the Democratic Party. I mean, how do they expect to make a living? If not Amazon, what industries are acceptable to them?

We'll see what happens to Trump here in the next few months. The far right is ripping him for signing the border bill and he's likely to really step in it over this national emergency he's created to make an end run around Congress. He's going to put a lot of Republicans on the spot. I don't know if it's going to be enough to enable a credible primary challenge in 2020, but we'll see.

[c_hawkbob]

I think "the left" is more anti-government subsidies for big corporations than anti-Amazon ...

[burrrton]

But how does that explain AOC's gaff that because Amazon's HQ2 isn't coming to NY that they are now going to be flush with $3B they can spend on schools?

Man, if only NY had promised $100B in tax breaks- think of what Amazon bailing would have done for their schools!

The far right is ripping him for signing the border bill and he's likely to really step in it over this national emergency he's created to make an end run around Congress.

Yep- complete idiot pulling this stunt (and I said the same about Obama flirting with it, too). We now have to hope the courts will bail the country out or you can bet your bottom dollar the next Dem POTUS is going to shove this new precedent so far up Repubs' @sses they'll be able to taste it.

[burrrton]

I think "the left" is more anti-government subsidies for big corporations than anti-Amazon ...

Seems like a distinction without a difference, but regardless, tax breaks that *benefit* the citizenry aren't necessarily a bad thing, and there's a big difference between agreeing to lighten an oppressive tax code and cutting a company a check.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Sorry, my friend, but I can't buy that excuse. She had to have realized that Amazon wasn't an established business in Long Island and wasn't paying taxes. I mean, seriously, a grade schooler could figure out that the $3B she's talking about wasn't money in some account that was going to be paid to Amazon that's now going to be available for schools and other improvements.

There might have been a few infrastructure improvements they had planned in anticipation to Amazon's new HQ, roads, utilities, etc, that they had planned that would have resulted in some expenditures that now they will not have to make, but that's in the tens of millions, not billions. Plus I'm sure that the mechanisms for funding those infrastructure improvements were associated with things like increased property values and more property tax revenue in the future as a result of Amazon's moving in and not out of current funds.

It sure makes you wonder about the assumptions she's making in her Green New Deal proposal.

It doesn't, not claiming it did. In fact i was actually responding to Mack's statement that Amazon paid zero taxes there.

Sorry there guys; I hadn't looked into it a lot, and I assumed this was Amazon's first shot at establishing a major foot print in NY. I wanted to zero in on that it seems she is more clueless than the locals here that will keep pushing Exxon until they close up shop. On one hand, she doesn't realize that isn't money being paid to Amazon; on the other, she's probably thinking that Amazon should set up shop and not take the $3B tax break. Both are ridiculous. Businesses are looking for the best deal just like any consumer; they'll find it somewhere.

[RiverDog]

I think "the left" is more anti-government subsidies for big corporations than anti-Amazon ...

Government subsidies? What government subsidies? A subsidy is a grant, a loan, or some other kind of financial contribution. There was no money given by the government to Amazon to support their business. The deal was for a reduction in what Amazon would have normally had to pay in taxes. That's not a subsidy, it's a tax incentive.

That's the whole thing that AOC can't get through her head, that they didn't "save" themselves $3B that they can now spend on schools, etc.

[c_hawkbob]

I'm not gonna play this word game with you Riv. Choose another word, or use "tax breaks" if it suits you better. Seems like I can't say a thing to you without the substance of it getting lost in nailing down the terminology or the syntax of it to your liking.

[RiverDog]

I'm not gonna play this word game with you Riv. Choose another word, or use "tax breaks" if it suits you better. Seems like I can't say a thing to you without the substance of it getting lost in nailing down the terminology or the syntax of it to your liking.

The reason I'm giving you such a hard time is that I know that you are one of the more intelligent guys on the board that has a very good command of the English language and understands the fact that one mis chosen word can change the entire meaning of a statement or argument.

I'm not nit picking. The taxpayers subsidized the Seahawks stadium because they took existing tax revenue, ie hotel and restaurant taxes, created some lottery games, etc, and contributed the proceeds directly to construction costs of the new stadium. It was real money that could have been used for some other purpose or left in the taxpayer's wallets. That's clearly not what's being done with Amazon.

The use of that kind of inaccurate terminology confuses the issue and leads to the same types of mistakes that OAC and the far left is making regarding the Amazon deal. Excuse me for wanting to be factual.

[RiverDog]

Sorry there guys; I hadn't looked into it a lot, and I assumed this was Amazon's first shot at establishing a major foot print in NY. I wanted to zero in on that it seems she is more clueless than the locals here that will keep pushing Exxon until they close up shop. On one hand, she doesn't realize that isn't money being paid to Amazon; on the other, she's probably thinking that Amazon should set up shop and not take the $3B tax break. Both are ridiculous. Businesses are looking for the best deal just like any consumer; they'll find it somewhere.

At least from what I saw of the demonstrators and their pickets, the tax break didn't seem to be as much of an issue as was the fact that Amazon is a huge corporation headed by the richest man in the world. As a matter of fact, Amazon's own statement as to why they pulled out referred to a certain hostility towards them:

While polls show that 70 percent of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City.

This is nothing less than an example of how the far left is advancing an anti capitalism, class warfare agenda.

[Aseahawkfan]

You say you are not a Trump fan but all you do is defend him, so I have a hard time believing that statement.

Join the club. The majority of you anti-Trump zealots believe anyone defending Trump from this stupid likes him. Sorry, it isn't the case. Some of us just don't like hypocrisy. If you're not willing to actually fix the government and are more concerned with hating a guy for being so brazenly open with how corrupt our government is, then I have no time for you. Fact is we haven't had a non-corrupt president in my life time of nearly 50 years because our base government is corrupt because so many of you buy into all this BS they are selling that does nothing more than allow them to use our tax money for a world controlling agenda that mostly benefits big business.

It's not even a hidden conspiracy. It's all open information you can find quite easily with end goals that are quite clear and open, but so many Americans want to buy into the BS they sell in the simplest digestible form that they ignore the other reasons they are doing things.

Also those that are indicted, or plead guilty not having any Trump connections, is BS.
His former personal lawyer is going to prison for 3 years, and many individuals in his campaign or businesses are facing prison time. Heck, his son, daughter, and son in law are in deep doo. Those are FACTS.

Yean. and business associates of the Clintons ended up dead in various places. Bush Jr. started a war on the loosest of premisses. Reagan era officials were indicated of far worse. Obama had HIlary working under him using private email servers and making deals with Libya. What about it? Eh, what about it? Why do you ignore all the corruption, but somehow Trump's is worse than theirs? The corruption list is so long for nearly every candidate that picking and choosing because you hate Trump just makes you seem like an ignorant hypocrite. You want to start lists of how corrupt our politicians have been? Then you can see the comparison.

PS. Have you done your taxes yet? Your promised Trump “tax cut” is actually huge tax increase unless you are the 1% or are a major corporation. Again don’t believe me, look at your refund check / tax bill.

Gee, I'm as dumb as all those people that couldn't calculate some math on how the taxes work now. Sorry, that is not me. The taxes are fine. They made it quite clear something was being cut to lower the tax rates. It was all made clear when it was done. But a bunch of folks used to claiming certain items on their taxes lost them and are lower now. I could care less. These same people are crying for people to pay full taxes, then when they have to they cry some more.

Like I said, whining American hypocrites is all I see.

[Aseahawkfan]

Did you hear what AOC said yesterday after the news that Amazon was pulling out of their planned HQ2 in Long Island? She said that they could take that "$3B and use it for schools, etc". I couldn't believe my ears.

The $3B was approved tax exemptions that the various local and state governments were going to give Amazon as part of a package of incentives. It's not money that the governments were going to spend on Amazon.

Is she really that stupid?

The fact that Ocasio-Cortez is who the left is pushing like a freight train just shows how ridiculous they've become.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think "the left" is more anti-government subsidies for big corporations than anti-Amazon ...

But they're pro-take all this money from people to pay for programs for people they deem need it without standards for behavior or anything else in place to ensure it is used intelligently and effectively. They literally keep asking for more and more and more money and seem to feel entitled to it without showing they have effectively used it. That is exactly what happens when you are not answerable to a customer base that demands results from the expenditure. A company like Amazon could not just take your money and give you nothing for it or you stop using them. But the government can keep on using force of government to take money without showing any results and we have to tolerate it. It's morally wrong and I'm tired of it.

[burrrton]

I'm not gonna play this word game with you Riv.

It's not "word games", Bob- there's a difference between cutting checks to companies (see: Solyndra) and creating incentives in your tax structure.

One wipes the government's butt with million dollar bills, the other brings billions into your economy.

[burrrton]

PS. Have you done your taxes yet?

Yes, dumbass- I did, and I saved about $3K, just as I knew I would when I computed my tax burden months ago.

You need to quit reading Huffington Post for your talking points.

[RiverDog]

PS. Have you done your taxes yet? Your promised Trump “tax cut” is actually huge tax increase unless you are the 1% or are a major corporation. Again don’t believe me, look at your refund check / tax bill.

Gee, I'm as dumb as all those people that couldn't calculate some math on how the taxes work now. Sorry, that is not me. The taxes are fine. They made it quite clear something was being cut to lower the tax rates. It was all made clear when it was done. But a bunch of folks used to claiming certain items on their taxes lost them and are lower now. I could care less. These same people are crying for people to pay full taxes, then when they have to they cry some more.

Like I said, whining American hypocrites is all I see.

I have to agree with ASF on this one. The fact that so many Americans are shocked because they "think" that they're paying more taxes or didn't bother to look at the details of the new tax bill when they were told that their taxes were cut reinforces some of the comments I made in the retirement/insurance thread about the vast numbers of people being so naive about their personal finances.

I do think that Trump and the R's were playing a little hocus pocus by lowering the tax rate but eliminating or reducing some common deductions to make up for the lower income brackets made the tax cut less than what was advertized, at least for some of us middle class folks, but that's still no excuse for so many people getting blind sided. Even if a person is an indigent, there's tons of agencies and volunteer organizations out there willing to help them at no cost.

I guess that's why so many people are turning to the liberal/socialist agenda, because they can't or won't take charge of their own lives and need the government to save them from themselves.

[burrrton]

Just about everyone got a tax cut except for people in high-tax states that no longer get to write off all the SALT.

The dopes that ran with Kamala Harris' gaffe don't realize in doing so they sound just as ignorant as AOC.

[RiverDog]

Just about everyone got a tax cut except for people in high-tax states that no longer get to write off all the SALT.

The dopes that ran with Kamala Harris' gaffe don't realize in doing so they sound just as ignorant as AOC.

There were a few other things in there besides state and local tax deductions that might have taken people by surprise as there were a lot of deductions that were eliminated, such as moving and meal expenses, union dues, etc. Additionally, some people had significant increases in their insurance premiums, which would have reduced their take home pay and hidden their tax cut.

All I know is that I got a huge benefit as I am now in the 12% bracket instead of 22%, so much so that it will allow me to move funds from my pre-tax funds, which represnts about 75% of our nest egg, into a Roth and pay tax at just 12% vs. the higher rate. That's going to save me a ton as I can do that each year until I hit 70.5 years of age and reduce what I'll have to pay via the RMD. And, of course, WA does not have an income tax, so we realized a bigger break than those that had that deduction reduced.

[c_hawkbob]

I'm not gonna play this word game with you Riv. Choose another word, or use "tax breaks" if it suits you better. Seems like I can't say a thing to you without the substance of it getting lost in nailing down the terminology or the syntax of it to your liking.

The reason I'm giving you such a hard time is that I know that you are one of the more intelligent guys on the board that has a very good command of the English language and understands the fact that one mis chosen word can change the entire meaning of a statement or argument.

I'm not nit picking. The taxpayers subsidized the Seahawks stadium because they took existing tax revenue, ie hotel and restaurant taxes, created some lottery games, etc, and contributed the proceeds directly to construction costs of the new stadium. It was real money that could have been used for some other purpose or left in the taxpayer's wallets. That's clearly not what's being done with Amazon.

The use of that kind of inaccurate terminology confuses the issue and leads to the same types of mistakes that OAC and the far left is making regarding the Amazon deal. Excuse me for wanting to be factual.

That's BS. I'm not talking about Amazon specifically, I'm talking about what 'the Left' is actually objecting to WRT Amazon, and that is, by whatever terminology you care to apply, the siphoning of resources from the lower and middle classes to corporations and the already very rich.

And I'm not even arguing the ideology, just trying to clarify the actual objection where Amazon is concerned. Meanwhile you continue to obfuscate by nitpicking the minutia.

And no, not for a few years now, I no longer have the capacity to engage in this kind of exercise, it takes too much of my time to write intelligibly anymore. Where I used to be able to pound out a page of coherent thought in a couple minutes, it just took me a half hour to write this little bit.

[RiverDog]

That's BS. I'm not talking about Amazon specifically, I'm talking about what 'the Left' is actually objecting to WRT Amazon, and that is, by whatever terminology you care to apply, the siphoning of resources from the lower and middle classes to corporations and the already very rich.

Sorry, man, it's not "whatever terminology" anyone cares to apply. We must be specific. A tax break or tax incentive does not 'siphon resources' from any class of tax payer. It simply is not true. Now if you want to substitute a different term, like "subsidy" or "grant", then that would be very different and more along the lines of what you seem to be talking about. But terminology matters.

And I'm not even arguing the ideology, just trying to clarify the actual objection where Amazon is concerned. Meanwhile you continue to obfuscate by nitpicking the minutia.

I wasn't arguing about ideology, either, at least not in our exchanges. I was simply trying to frame the discussion by being factual. I was trying to keep the apples separate from the oranges.

And no, not for a few years now, I no longer have the capacity to engage in this kind of exercise, it takes too much of my time to write intelligibly anymore. Where I used to be able to pound out a page of coherent thought in a couple minutes, it just took me a half hour to write this little bit.

Understood. For me, these types of discussions, arguments, etc, forces me to keep my mind sharp and attention focused. Due to the weather, my wife's incapacity, babysitting two old, crippled dogs, and being retired, I have way too much time on my hands. So long as it's kept respectful and above the belt as you have in this discussion, I appreciate and look forward to your continued participation.

[burrrton]

the siphoning of resources from the lower and middle classes to corporations and the already very rich.

*sigh* A tax break is not "siphoning resources" from anyone or anything.

[RiverDog]

Cbob's comments aside, one of the arguments that the far left, specifically AOC, is making with respect to Amazon is that they are saying that the increase in real estate value will force residents to move from their neighborhoods. While that may be true for some, particularly those that rent, it ignores the fact that the economic activity 25k jobs will create will enable many of those poor people with increased job opportunities they otherwise wouldn't have had so they can then afford any increase in rent that may occur. It also ignores the fact that for those low income folks that do own property would have seen the value of their homes increase, and with it their net worth, and allow them many more opportunities in terms of upgrading to a more desirable location and/or accommodation than they otherwise wouldn't have had.

Additionally, that increased economic activity will create more tax revenue, allowing them to spend more on schools, parks, etc. There is no viable argument under any economic model to my knowledge that can be made against the tax breaks and incentives that was being offered to Amazon that would not be a huge financial boon for both government and its citizens. That's why liberal pols like Andrew Cuomo, who was willing to change his name to Amazon Cuomo, were enthusiastically behind the deal.

There is a non financial argument to be made that bringing in a company like Amazon would change the character of the community. I remember when WalMart decided to build a store in Hood River, Oregon, which is a small, quaint, tourist-driven community. They were afraid that competition from WalMart would devastate their downtown small businesses and turn their town from a 1920-1950's era experience into a collection of strip malls and convenience stores. But that's not what I'm hearing from the protesters in Queens, NY. It seems to me that it's more of a fundamental objection to *any* big business, the presence of *any* rich people, regardless of the effects, positive or negative, that may result. It seems more like class warfare.

[burrrton]

one of the arguments that the far left, specifically AOC, is making with respect to Amazon is that they are saying that the increase in real estate value will force residents to move from their neighborhoods.

Yes. It ignores the fact that prosperity and growth are huge net positives and focuses on the drawbacks (such as they are).

"LET'S LEAVE THIS SLUM ALONE" isn't a very compelling argument.

That's why liberal pols like Andrew Cuomo, who was willing to change his name to Amazon Cuomo, were enthusiastically behind the deal.

Cuomo.. De Blasio... when even the far-left knows her ideas are crackpot, that should tell everyone where she is in the Overton window.

Enjoy your Marx Bae, Dems.

[RiverDog]

one of the arguments that the far left, specifically AOC, is making with respect to Amazon is that they are saying that the increase in real estate value will force residents to move from their neighborhoods.

Yes. It ignores the fact that prosperity and growth are huge net positives and focuses on the drawbacks (such as they are).

"LET'S LEAVE THIS SLUM ALONE" isn't a very compelling argument.

I'm pretty sure that at Amazon could have been talked into subsidizing rent payments for long term residents that may have been forced to move due to an increase in real estate values if that was a stumbling block. But from the sounds of it, talks were so corrosive and unfriendly that Amazon decided that they didn't want any part of it.

That's why liberal pols like Andrew Cuomo, who was willing to change his name to Amazon Cuomo, were enthusiastically behind the deal.

Cuomo.. De Blasio... when even the far-left knows her ideas are crackpot, that should tell everyone where she is in the Overton window.

Enjoy your Marx Bae, Dems.

I got a kick out of De Blasio, laying the blame on Amazon by saying that "you have to be tough to make it in New York City." Perhaps he wants some bare knuckles longshoremen or West Virginia coal miners in his city instead of those nerdy techie types.

70% of NY residents approved of the deal, and higher percentages than that in the areas of Queens and the Bronx that would have been the most affected, and oddly enough, a higher percentage of blacks were in support of the deal than whites.

I don't get it.

[Aseahawkfan]

the siphoning of resources from the lower and middle classes to corporations and the already very rich.

*sigh* A tax break is not "siphoning resources" from anyone or anything.

You already know the uneducated masses consider wealth a zero sum game where the wealthy get there by taking from others and not by creating it. They don't understand economics. All they care about is fanning the flames of "wealth inequality" without understanding their attempted method of correcting it is a path to the poorhouse. They keep bringing up Europe when there are a handful of European nations doing better than us in a few areas and not at all overall. It's unbelievable how badly informed the public is on these matters.

They don't get that these so called rich people are rich on paper. Once they sell their stock, they will pay taxes on it. Corporartions that reinvest in expansion getting tax breaks are creating jobs and revenue streams in other areas that lead to increased tax revenues. This idea politicians are making deals that aren't a net gain for the community are dumb. Even the Dems aren't that stupid. The Washington economy is doing well because most of the Dems are smart enough to know that the corporate tax a company plays is only a small portion of the overall tax revenue they generate for a community. They never consider the property tax revenue, the B&O taxes, taxes on all the office supplies and other such items they use, licensing fees for their various activities, various payroll taxes, and then all the taxes generated by the jobs they create directly and indirectly through restaurants, parking, housing, and the like they bring to an area. The left is so dumb at this point that only an uneducated mass of people wanting handouts can possibly be supporting someone like AOC.

[burrrton]

But from the sounds of it, talks were so corrosive and unfriendly that Amazon decided that they didn't want any part of it.

Yeah, when "LET'S OUTLAW RICH PEOPLE!" has become an acceptable idea, even signed onto by your party's candidates, you've lost your way.

I don't get it.

Nobody does- that's why she's getting universally ridiculed.

[burrrton]

It's unbelievable how badly informed the public is on these matters.

You can say that again. I literally spat coffee on my monitor the first time I read AOC's "Now we will have that $3B to invest in schools!" proclamation, then fell out of my chair when there were some agreeing with her.

Public schools are failing our kids.

They don't get that these so called rich people are rich on paper. Once they sell their stock, they will pay taxes on it. Corporartions that reinvest in expansion getting tax breaks are creating jobs and revenue streams in other areas that lead to increased tax revenues.

There's all that, but I think it's even more insidious- they literally think it's bad for people to be successful.

What a horrible thing to teach kids growing up.

[RiverDog]

It's unbelievable how badly informed the public is on these matters.

You can say that again. I literally spat coffee on my monitor the first time I read AOC's "Now we will have that $3B to invest in schools!" proclamation, then fell out of my chair when there were some agreeing with her.

Public schools are failing our kids.

They don't get that these so called rich people are rich on paper. Once they sell their stock, they will pay taxes on it. Corporartions that reinvest in expansion getting tax breaks are creating jobs and revenue streams in other areas that lead to increased tax revenues.

There's all that, but I think it's even more insidious- they literally think it's bad for people to be successful.

What a horrible thing to teach kids growing up.

I agree with all those comments, but I'll also add that a lot of the hatred towards anyone with money stems from pure jealously from people trying to rationalize their own failures in life. I don't like Donald Trump not because he has money, but that he acts like a spoiled rich kid. I also draw a distinction between people that earned their fortune, like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, or even Oprah Winfrey, vs. someone like Trump or the Kennedys that inherited it.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree with all those comments, but I'll also add that a lot of the hatred towards anyone with money stems from pure jealously from people trying to rationalize their own failures in life. I don't like Donald Trump not because he has money, but that he acts like a spoiled rich kid. I also draw a distinction between people that earned their fortune, like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, or even Oprah Winfrey, vs. someone like Trump or the Kennedys that inherited it.

What pisses me off even more is that I:

1. Come from a poor background. Have literally watched tons of poor people that make Trump seem like an angel comparatively. Vice-ridden, bad decision making poor folk taking no responsibility for their pathetic behaviors. I grew up around this in my family and with friends and their families. Poor people are not noble. In fact, they are mostly dumb, not even making simple, intelligent decisions to better their lives whether it be health or finance.

2. I built myself not having a job that pays that much. I had friends that have always made way more money than I do, yet they were borrowing from me because I save and manage my money very, very well. I do this by choice. It is insanely amoral that folks on the left and their supporters feel that I, who worked my way up from "poor" (I put it in parentheses because I never looked at myself as such even though my income bracket would have put me there) and now I'm expected to pay for the "poor" even when they act completely irresponsible.

3. ...paid for my college out of my pocket working full time and going to school full time. Somehow these other kids get to have expensive cell phones with high monthly bills, while I pay for their college out of my taxes because it's too expensive for them. Sorry, that is not how it should work. It is showing a glaring flaw in Democracy when the mob can vote money into their pocket without working for it.

Like I said, a great deal of this behavior is thievery by the mob using the power of government. It's amoral and wrong. Unless they've first put the time in to work and managed their finances intelligently while avoiding negative, self-destructive behaviors, they have no right to make these demands. Yet somehow they are allowed to do this and it is tolerated by the current crop of leftists that don't want to first encourage productive, intelligent behavior before looking to drain the coffers of the wealthy to pay for poor human behavior.

[RiverDog]

. ...paid for my college out of my pocket working full time and going to school full time. Somehow these other kids get to have expensive cell phones with high monthly bills, while I pay for their college out of my taxes because it's too expensive for them. Sorry, that is not how it should work. It is showing a glaring flaw in Democracy when the mob can vote money into their pocket without working for it.

I paid my own way through 4.5 years of college, too, and did it as you did: Working summer jobs, during Xmas and spring breaks, and a random weekend here and there. Although my parents could have afforded to pay for some of my education, I didn't take a dime from them. But I do have to qualify it by saying that was in the mid-70's when my tuition for a state college (EWU) was $169/quarter and I split a $200/month apartment 3 or 4 ways. But I was only making around $5/hour, too.

When I interviewed for my first job out of college, my future boss hired me even though I had a lower GPA than a number of other candidates, his stated reason being the way I worked my way through college...although he later told me in front of several others that he didn't want to hire someone that was smarter than he was.

But even in today's world, anyone that has some smarts can access college. I've worked with tons of lower middle class parents that put several of their kids through college. My wife has a friend, a single female that works as a school nurse, who's 3 daughters all graduated from college with very little financial participation from their mom. Basically, if there's a will, there's a way.

I can understand addressing in a limited manner the current situation where kids graduate with an average debt of over $30,000, but no way do I want to ever see us give "free" access to higher education even if the country could afford it. There's something to be said in having to have earned something. This is a good example why I reject the far left's philosophy.

[RiverDog]

PS. Have you done your taxes yet? Your promised Trump “tax cut” is actually huge tax increase unless you are the 1% or are a major corporation. Again don’t believe me, look at your refund check / tax bill.

I'm not trying to turn the debate back to taxes, but I thought I'd submit this article about the "Trump tax cut" as a FYI:

It’s easy to blame refund shrinkage on the federal government, and the IRS is used to getting complaints. But in this situation, the real blame belongs to taxpayers who didn’t understand that the massive changes in tax law might make it smart to re-examine their own role in determining the size of their refunds — by looking at their withholding.

http://stocktalkjournal.com/smaller-ref ... its-yours/

[burrrton]

I also draw a distinction between people that earned their fortune, like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, or even Oprah Winfrey, vs. someone like Trump or the Kennedys that inherited it.

I think of them in very different terms, too, but (and I know you probably don't disagree with this) I still can't advocate for confiscating money just because parents left it to douchebags.

[RiverDog]

I also draw a distinction between people that earned their fortune, like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, or even Oprah Winfrey, vs. someone like Trump or the Kennedys that inherited it.

I think of them in very different terms, too, but (and I know you probably don't disagree with this) I still can't advocate for confiscating money just because parents left it to douchebags.

Oh, I agree. I wasn't saying anything about tax policy/re-distribution of income but rather a personal like/dislike of rich people. Some have this entitlement aura about them, others are down to earth. Trump is definitely of the former.

One of my favorite examples is of the Kennedys. Joe Jr., the one the old mad was grooming for the Presidency, was by the accounts I have read a real jerk/stuck up rich kid that used to get into fist fights with many of his fellow service mates during the war. On the other hand, Jack Kennedy was the complete opposite, a really good guy that would jump into the harbor and help enlisted men under his charge scrape barnacles from the sides of their PT boat and maintained a solid relationship with all of his surviving shipmates until the day he died.

[idhawkman]

Sorry there guys; I hadn't looked into it a lot, and I assumed this was Amazon's first shot at establishing a major foot print in NY. I wanted to zero in on that it seems she is more clueless than the locals here that will keep pushing Exxon until they close up shop. On one hand, she doesn't realize that isn't money being paid to Amazon; on the other, she's probably thinking that Amazon should set up shop and not take the $3B tax break. Both are ridiculous. Businesses are looking for the best deal just like any consumer; they'll find it somewhere.

At least from what I saw of the demonstrators and their pickets, the tax break didn't seem to be as much of an issue as was the fact that Amazon is a huge corporation headed by the richest man in the world. As a matter of fact, Amazon's own statement as to why they pulled out referred to a certain hostility towards them:

While polls show that 70 percent of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we and many others envisioned in Long Island City.

This is nothing less than an example of how the far left is advancing an anti capitalism, class warfare agenda.

If you have ever worked in the NY area you know exactly what this means. The local politicians wanted to get paid by amazon and weren't in the deal that the governor made with amazon. When they came with their hands out, amazon said "no". Need not look any further than this.

FYI - the $3B was based on certain employment rates that amazon achieved. E.g. after xx,xxx employees were hired at an average of $150k/yr they would get $1b in tax relief. The reason it is structured this way is because the income tax, property tax, sales tax and increased taxes based on the money flow from those employees all add up to multiples of what amazon gets in a break.

The problem the Dems and socialists have is this. They've railed against the wealthy and want the "tippy-tippy-top" to pay up to 90% tax on what they make. But everytime you aim at the top, you hit the middle and lower classes. The "tippy-tippy-top" just have to raise the rates on their goods and services that the average person buys or they find a loophole to escape the taxes. Socialism and big government never created one dime in the world. They get their money by confiscating it from others (You and me or in this case big corporations). But they have demonized those big companies that will hire the "You and me's" of the world. Well if we have no job, we have no money and they can't confiscate it from anyone. This usually leads the socialist and big government politicians into talking out of both sides of their mouth. Demonize the big guys to create a common enemy among the masses but then smooze the big companies and give them the breaks in the back rooms where little light of day gets through. Now think about the dems and where their funds come from and tell me if you see the picture yet?

[idhawkman]

Additionally, that increased economic activity will create more tax revenue, allowing them to spend more on schools, parks, etc. There is no viable argument under any economic model to my knowledge that can be made against the tax breaks and incentives that was being offered to Amazon that would not be a huge financial boon for both government and its citizens. That's why liberal pols like Andrew Cuomo, who was willing to change his name to Amazon Cuomo, were enthusiastically behind the deal.

LOL, when you demonize the "Rich" to increase your base you can't turn around and then incentivize the richest man in the world with tax breaks. They backed themselves into a corner and worse yet, I can't imagine any other large company wanting to move there after this. Plus the numbers of people moving out of NY, IL, CA and Conn. because of the SALT limit is really going to strain the local govts.

[idhawkman]

I also draw a distinction between people that earned their fortune, like Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, or even Oprah Winfrey, vs. someone like Trump or the Kennedys that inherited it.

I think of them in very different terms, too, but (and I know you probably don't disagree with this) I still can't advocate for confiscating money just because parents left it to douchebags.

I'm just curious but how much money do you think Trump inherited? Additionally, how much do you think he should have inherited from working with his dad in the complexes.

[burrrton]

They've railed against the wealthy and want the "tippy-tippy-top" to pay up to 90% tax on what they make. But everytime you aim at the top, you hit the middle and lower classes. The "tippy-tippy-top" just have to raise the rates on their goods and services that the average person buys or they find a loophole to escape the taxes.

There's also the small problem of there not being *nearly* enough money in taxing the tippy, tippy top to come close to covering "Medicare for All", free college, student loan forgiveness, the "Green New Deal", and whatever other Socialist wet dream they had last night.

They eventually have to dip into the middle class because that's where the money is.

I'm just curious but how much money do you think Trump inherited?

Don't know for sure, and don't give two squirts, but I thought it was a few hundred million.

Additionally, how much do you think he should have inherited from working with his dad in the complexes.

What business is it of mine?

[Hawktawk]

Whatever the tax ramifications may be for fiscal 2019 it's my understanding that the individual tax relief for the little guys is temporary and will expire in a few years while the humongous business tax break is permanent. Then there's the matter of the trillion dollar deficits the last 2 years, double obama's last 2 and a national debt now over 22 TRILLION DOLLARS.

And in other news http://fortune.com/2019/02/19/trump-say ... ney-probe/

Probably just more fake news , right?. Never seen so much fake news about a more law abiding upstanding POTUS......