The soul of America

[Hawktawk]

I'm going to try to tie into this current crisis a bit differently,try to think a little more deeply. I'm observing what its teaching us about our leaders, about our neighbors, ourselves. Its not too good in some ways, much better in others. Watching the heroism of the medical service providers, scientists, emts and first responders is heartwarming. Seeing some actual bipartisanship is nice. Families are clinging together spending time, people being forced to reflect like almost never before in their relatively privileged lives. Its good to see the degree nationally that people are complying with the orders which is the only way to stop this.

Unfortunately I live in Moses Lake WA, heart of Trump country.Its really quite sad but Rs are far more likely to discount this risk, be careless. People are not being careful. Maybe one in a hundred people in walmart has a mask or gloves on. Lowes parking lot was wall to wall. Janel and I were guilty as well only 2 weeks ago eating out. Grant County has gone from 1 confirmed case in a couple of weeks to near capacity in hospital beds. Quincy alone has 25 now, more than the beds in their hospital. The lack of compliance says we are selfish, foolish, in denial.
Beyond that as has been said Trump was pushing for an easter open, a blatant dog whistle to his base. He's not been nearly alone in fighting to "open it up" either. Thankfully hes hedging now as this spirals out of control. But what does it say about the mentality of america, the soul if you will that people are willing to let other people suffocate to get reelected or save their 401 K.

I get it, you can't stay closed forever,destroying the world economy completely would bring on a dark age of depression far worse than the great one but how many lives must we lose threading that needle?

And let me go another step. Bipartisanship is good but what are we doing to future generations printing all this funny money? America has no money because they live beyond their means and encourage their citizens to do so as well. We handed almost 2 trillion in tax cuts to business during a roaring economy and already we're running trillion dollar deficits before this happened. In 2008 we did the same thing, a huge infusion of borrowed money. And again for the banks and the wealthy a windfall as the little guy got stimulus check and very little else.2008 was our fault, our leaders, our financial people but we bailed ourselves out rather than practice austerity and accept our huge mistake. Now our politicians are trying to buy our loyalty with my great great grandkids money when we all screwed up, our leaders first and then we who did not take this seriously for too long. Passing off the pain to another generation that will face the ultimate collapse is what we do in america these days..

And for the 2 trillion deal this time which I've heard is part of up to 7 trillion dollars if needed I've heard the fed is doing unprecedented things to prop up the markets, infusing trillions there, purchasing securities to help the ponzi scheme stay afloat.
I'm sure asea knows a lot about this but what I've heard sounds creepy. So I guess my question is, how many lives are a 10K rise in the dow worth? how much of a nightmare from hell financially should we hand our great great grandkids so we can continue to enjoy our comfortable lives, our shiny toys etc? What's most important in America?

[RiverDog]

I'm going to try to tie into this current crisis a bit differently,try to think a little more deeply. I'm observing what its teaching us about our leaders, about our neighbors, ourselves. Its not too good in some ways, much better in others. Watching the heroism of the medical service providers, scientists, emts and first responders is heartwarming. Seeing some actual bipartisanship is nice. Families are clinging together spending time, people being forced to reflect like almost never before in their relatively privileged lives. Its good to see the degree nationally that people are complying with the orders which is the only way to stop this.

I see this event as being much like 9/11. Our world will never be the same again. But I do think a lot of the inevitable change will be for the good. It will make us realize that borders are a human thing, that they don't stop viruses. Neither do oceans or mountain ranges.

Unfortunately I live in Moses Lake WA, heart of Trump country.Its really quite sad but Rs are far more likely to discount this risk, be careless. People are not being careful. Maybe one in a hundred people in walmart has a mask or gloves on. Lowes parking lot was wall to wall. Janel and I were guilty as well only 2 weeks ago eating out. Grant County has gone from 1 confirmed case in a couple of weeks to near capacity in hospital beds. Quincy alone has 25 now, more than the beds in their hospital. The lack of compliance says we are selfish, foolish, in denial.

FYI I lived in Moses Lake for 11 years, from 1978-1989. I worked at what is now the Simplot plant out on Wheeler Rd. Those folks you are talking about are going to be in for a rude awakening when that virus puts their parents in the hospital. I'm in pretty solid red territory, too, and people down here seem to be doing pretty well complying with the distancing guidelines. I went to Winco, our largest grocery store by sales, at 9:00am Friday and saw about 30 or so people lined up to get into the store as there was an employee with a two way radio regulating how many people could enter. Everyone was spaced 6+ feet apart. Inside the store they had a single checkout line taped off on the floor showing how far apart to stay away from the customer in front of you. I was surprised at how orderly it all was.

Beyond that as has been said Trump was pushing for an easter open, a blatant dog whistle to his base. He's not been nearly alone in fighting to "open it up" either. Thankfully hes hedging now as this spirals out of control. But what does it say about the mentality of america, the soul if you will that people are willing to let other people suffocate to get reelected or save their 401 K.

I get it, you can't stay closed forever,destroying the world economy completely would bring on a dark age of depression far worse than the great one but how many lives must we lose threading that needle?

What really irritated me was his complaining that some of the governors weren't appreciative enough, and specifically said that he told Pence not to speak to Michigan and Washington's Gov's. Completely irresponsible IMO.

And let me go another step. Bipartisanship is good but what are we doing to future generations printing all this funny money? America has no money because they live beyond their means and encourage their citizens to do so as well. We handed almost 2 trillion in tax cuts to business during a roaring economy and already we're running trillion dollar deficits before this happened. In 2008 we did the same thing, a huge infusion of borrowed money. And again for the banks and the wealthy a windfall as the little guy got stimulus check and very little else.2008 was our fault, our leaders, our financial people but we bailed ourselves out rather than practice austerity and accept our huge mistake. Now our politicians are trying to buy our loyalty with my great great grandkids money when we all screwed up, our leaders first and then we who did not take this seriously for too long. Passing off the pain to another generation that will face the ultimate collapse is what we do in america these days..

And for the 2 trillion deal this time which I've heard is part of up to 7 trillion dollars if needed I've heard the fed is doing unprecedented things to prop up the markets, infusing trillions there, purchasing securities to help the ponzi scheme stay afloat.
I'm sure asea knows a lot about this but what I've heard sounds creepy. So I guess my question is, how many lives are a 10K rise in the dow worth? how much of a nightmare from hell financially should we hand our great great grandkids so we can continue to enjoy our comfortable lives, our shiny toys etc? What's most important in America?

This isn't the time to worry about money. You said it yourself. We had over 3 million jobless claims in one week. People need that money. Companies need help to get through this crisis so people have jobs to go back to. Let's worry about that after this is all over.

[Aseahawkfan]

It is good to see people on both sides waking up to what's going on at in D.C., even our bombastic, narcissistic president who is watching the state where he was born and built up his businesses and maintained his home get ripped apart. As much as he doesn't talk about, his friends and family in New York gotta be calling him and telling him how terrible it is. New York is Trump's home. I hope to see him acknowledge that at some point even though right now he is concerned about re-election. New York is going to get torn up.

You already know the economic damage of flooding the economy with money. Given the circumstances I think it was smart You won't have much inflation when no one is buying for reasons other than lack of money. And all the unemployed people and shut down businesses will need cheap, almost free money to get the economy bakc going. That is job one. As far as the long-term effects, we will see. We had kind of strange economic situation prior to this corona virus driven crash with low inflation, low interest rates, and low unemployment. Normally that situation in the past lead to increased inflation, but it hasn't in recent years for some reason. A lot of economists find it odd given it goes against their usual economic theories. I think given the corona virus situation even all this printed money and debt will not have the negative impact it once had. I'm not sure why.

It could be because some aspects of the economy were stagnant to begin causing the wealth inequality. Money and credit in general needed to be more plentiful and cheaper for regular folk to access it to purchase houses and cars at a cheaper rate. Which should increase demand, increase supply, and cause lower unemployment. Maybe were in a stunted economy prior which is why for so long the Middle Class has languished. I'm sure people who study this a lot closer than me have some ideas.

The debt will be bad. We're always trying to outgrow our debt. At the end of the day the disaster people predict with the debt is overblown and can be managed. If need be America can cancel it's debt, go bankrupt, then start again building up for another 100 years. That would cause some serious short-term pain, but long-term we would be fine. Money at the end of the day isn't a real thing. It's value is what we make it. A monetary system is ultimately a system of resource management that can manipulated to support a population as needed. We've canceled or ended monetary supplies before to do a reset, so have other nations when in similar economic circumstances. People shouldn't get too caught up in the idea that money is an absolute and the usual economic theories always apply. I believe Iraq and Argentina have done monetary resets before to restart their economies. Obviously we don't want to end up like them, but they have other problems leading to their economic situation than we do.

Suffice it to say the real strength of the American economy is our productivity, culture, and human ingenuity and that isn't measured in dollars. So we can come back from anything and we've done it enough times and even with all the insults the old like to toss at the young nowadays, they will find in time of crisis Americans will step up to make it happen just like they've done in the past. Humans step up in crises. The only reason the young haven't done it like say the World War 2 generation is because they haven't needed to, but they will when the need is there as they are doing. I've never been a fan of putting down the young because they are different from us. Times dictate change and they are rolling with their times. When hard times hit, we will find young people are as resilient as any previous generation and will step up to match the times.

[Hawktawk]

It is good to see people on both sides waking up to what's going on at in D.C., even our bombastic, narcissistic president who is watching the state where he was born and built up his businesses and maintained his home get ripped apart. As much as he doesn't talk about, his friends and family in New York gotta be calling him and telling him how terrible it is. New York is Trump's home. I hope to see him acknowledge that at some point even though right now he is concerned about re-election. New York is going to get torn up.

You already know the economic damage of flooding the economy with money. Given the circumstances I think it was smart You won't have much inflation when no one is buying for reasons other than lack of money. And all the unemployed people and shut down businesses will need cheap, almost free money to get the economy bakc going. That is job one. As far as the long-term effects, we will see. We had kind of strange economic situation prior to this corona virus driven crash with low inflation, low interest rates, and low unemployment. Normally that situation in the past lead to increased inflation, but it hasn't in recent years for some reason. A lot of economists find it odd given it goes against their usual economic theories. I think given the corona virus situation even all this printed money and debt will not have the negative impact it once had. I'm not sure why.

It could be because some aspects of the economy were stagnant to begin causing the wealth inequality. Money and credit in general needed to be more plentiful and cheaper for regular folk to access it to purchase houses and cars at a cheaper rate. Which should increase demand, increase supply, and cause lower unemployment. Maybe were in a stunted economy prior which is why for so long the Middle Class has languished. I'm sure people who study this a lot closer than me have some ideas.

The debt will be bad. We're always trying to outgrow our debt. At the end of the day the disaster people predict with the debt is overblown and can be managed. If need be America can cancel it's debt, go bankrupt, then start again building up for another 100 years. That would cause some serious short-term pain, but long-term we would be fine. Money at the end of the day isn't a real thing. It's value is what we make it. A monetary system is ultimately a system of resource management that can manipulated to support a population as needed. We've canceled or ended monetary supplies before to do a reset, so have other nations when in similar economic circumstances. People shouldn't get too caught up in the idea that money is an absolute and the usual economic theories always apply. I believe Iraq and Argentina have done monetary resets before to restart their economies. Obviously we don't want to end up like them, but they have other problems leading to their economic situation than we do.

Suffice it to say the real strength of the American economy is our productivity, culture, and human ingenuity and that isn't measured in dollars. So we can come back from anything and we've done it enough times and even with all the insults the old like to toss at the young nowadays, they will find in time of crisis Americans will step up to make it happen just like they've done in the past. Humans step up in crises. The only reason the young haven't done it like say the World War 2 generation is because they haven't needed to, but they will when the need is there as they are doing. I've never been a fan of putting down the young because they are different from us. Times dictate change and they are rolling with their times. When hard times hit, we will find young people are as resilient as any previous generation and will step up to match the times.

Good stuff. Really good.
I'm worried about the markets next week. Bills are due all over the country and its been a horrible weekend news wise. If Mnunchin can pull this off hes superhuman.

[Aseahawkfan]

In my opinion is businesses are smart, they will do what I would call an economic delay. That means pretty much putting everything they can other than production we can keep up on delay. Rent payments, electric bills. and just about everything they can delay for those people who lost their jobs. The people who do have they money need to pay their bills, so companies and businesses that need the money can pay their bills and employees, even if at a reduced rates. Banks pretty much have to take a huge profit hit. Basically a huge economic delay is what we need right now for two months to help those in need. And that delay needs to pretty much be written off for the people that need it.

The government isn't going to be taking tax money. Local governments will lose huge sums on taxes of all kinds. We will basically survive by delaying everything but bare necessities. If you give people a rent and general bill holiday, they can survive for good with the 1200 checks from the government.

People for sure need to step up and handle themselves intelligently with those that can making a big effort to pay all their bills so that money can be used by companies to sustain the pay of those not getting paid.

We'll see how we do.

[RiverDog]

In my opinion is businesses are smart, they will do what I would call an economic delay. That means pretty much putting everything they can other than production we can keep up on delay. Rent payments, electric bills. and just about everything they can delay for those people who lost their jobs. The people who do have they money need to pay their bills, so companies and businesses that need the money can pay their bills and employees, even if at a reduced rates. Banks pretty much have to take a huge profit hit. Basically a huge economic delay is what we need right now for two months to help those in need. And that delay needs to pretty much be written off for the people that need it.

The government isn't going to be taking tax money. Local governments will lose huge sums on taxes of all kinds. We will basically survive by delaying everything but bare necessities. If you give people a rent and general bill holiday, they can survive for good with the 1200 checks from the government.

People for sure need to step up and handle themselves intelligently with those that can making a big effort to pay all their bills so that money can be used by companies to sustain the pay of those not getting paid.

We'll see how we do.

How businesses fare depends on several things. There are businesses that are already clinging on by the skin of their teeth, like brick and mortar retailers, restaurant chains, etc, this could be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Some of the smaller airlines, like Spirit and Jet Blue will be at risk. That's one of the reasons why the Republicans were so insistent that the stimulus package have a heavy amount to help businesses, particularly small businesses. People have to have a job to go back to after this is all said and done.

That's one of the reasons why it's foolish to let up on the restrictions and allow some businesses to start back up. Taking the human element of prioritizing business and money over human life out of the equation, it doesn't make for good long term fiscal policy to start up prematurely. It's not going to result in enough additional business activity to pull us out of or avoid a major recession. The risk of making the crisis worse isn't worth the temporary and quite modest gain we would see if restrictions were eased in a few "low risk" areas.

[RiverDog]

A few rays of hope.

I've been following the NYT's graph that tracks, among other things, the rate of increase in the number of deaths attributed to the coronavirus, plots a graph for each country with the death rate increase on one axis and the date on the other axis. Over the past few weeks, our rate of deaths have been increasing along a straight line, the total number of deaths doubling every 3 days. Over the past few days, we've seen the curve start to bend just a bit. Hopefully it's not just a lag in reporting due to the weekend.

The second ray of hope is that the POTUS seems to have pulled his head out, has extended social distancing guidelines through April 30th and has established June 1st as his prediction for being back on the road to health. That's quite a turnaround from the Easter Sunday forecast that was hideously unrealistic. He's also acknowledged what the experts have been saying for weeks, that the total death toll in the US could be as high as 200,000. Let's hope that he doesn't once again revert back to his default position and resume acting like a snake oil salesman. Getting him onboard is critical to convincing those stubborn non believers to take this thing seriously.

I'm making two trips away from my home this week, one to Costco and another to our largest grocery store. Last week, I was impressed with both stores and their protocols. I also chatted with my former boss, and he reports that several processing plants have already shut down. He said that business has been hit or miss, with the retail market skyrocketing, which makes complete sense.

[RiverDog]

There has been some developments that were just announced that offer some hope. One of those notoriously evil Big Pharma companies Johnson & Johnson made this announcement today:

J&J’s lead vaccine candidate will enter a phase 1 human clinical study by September, the company said, and clinical data on its effects is expected before the end of the year. If the vaccine works well, the company said it could be available for emergency use in early 2021.

The company said it is also increasing its manufacturing capacity with a new site in the U.S. and additions to existing sites in other countries to produce and distribute the potential vaccine quickly. J&J said it seeks to produce more than 1 billion doses of the potential vaccine.

Gorsky added that the company is pursuing the vaccine on a “not-for-profit basis,” but he declined to estimate how much it could cost the consumer.

On top of a lead vaccine candidate, J&J said it has two back-ups. The company said it began working on COVID-19 vaccine development in January.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/30/johnson ... idate.html

[Aseahawkfan]

There has been some developments that were just announced that offer some hope. One of those notoriously evil Big Pharma companies Johnson & Johnson made this announcement today:

J&J’s lead vaccine candidate will enter a phase 1 human clinical study by September, the company said, and clinical data on its effects is expected before the end of the year. If the vaccine works well, the company said it could be available for emergency use in early 2021.

The company said it is also increasing its manufacturing capacity with a new site in the U.S. and additions to existing sites in other countries to produce and distribute the potential vaccine quickly. J&J said it seeks to produce more than 1 billion doses of the potential vaccine.

Gorsky added that the company is pursuing the vaccine on a “not-for-profit basis,” but he declined to estimate how much it could cost the consumer.

On top of a lead vaccine candidate, J&J said it has two back-ups. The company said it began working on COVID-19 vaccine development in January.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/30/johnson ... idate.html

That would be good if we can get it done quickly. Corona viruses are well know and vaccine tech. I would think they could make one fairly quick.

Now if they start price gouging, then we can have a discussion of the "evil" part of your post when insurance companies refuse to pay for an over-priced vaccine and we start deciding who gets it according to price.

[RiverDog]

Now if they start price gouging, then we can have a discussion of the "evil" part of your post when insurance companies refuse to pay for an over-priced vaccine and we start deciding who gets it according to price.

Insurance companies are already stepping up. Many have decided not to count medications for coronavirus treatment and the eventual vaccine as an out of pocket expense, demand that deductibles be met or ask for co-pays:

A growing number of health insurance companies are waiving cost-sharing for members who not only get tested for COVID-19 but who also need treatment for the disease caused by the new coronavirus. These decisions generally apply to commercial plans and individuals with Medicare Advantage plans, Medicare supplemental or Medigap policies, and Medicaid.

https://www.aarp.org/health/health-insu ... costs.html

The spotlight is going to be on insurance and drug companies. I seriously doubt that you see very much price gouging or other unethical practices that are related to this once in a lifetime event that history will mention in the same breath with 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. I don't know what you think of CEO's and company presidents, if you're into class warfare and think that they're nothing but a bunch of Scrooges rubbing their hands together, but most of them have a moral compass. The percentage of jerks within that group isn't any higher with those folks than it is with the Joe 6 Packs. They aren't about to price their medications more than to cover their costs, perhaps a modest margin.

[Aseahawkfan]

Insurance companies are already stepping up. Many have decided not to count medications for coronavirus treatment and the eventual vaccine as an out of pocket expense, demand that deductibles be met or ask for co-pays:

A growing number of health insurance companies are waiving cost-sharing for members who not only get tested for COVID-19 but who also need treatment for the disease caused by the new coronavirus. These decisions generally apply to commercial plans and individuals with Medicare Advantage plans, Medicare supplemental or Medigap policies, and Medicaid.

https://www.aarp.org/health/health-insu ... costs.html

The spotlight is going to be on insurance and drug companies. I seriously doubt that you see very much price gouging or other unethical practices that are related to this once in a lifetime event that history will mention in the same breath with 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. I don't know what you think of CEO's and company presidents, if you're into class warfare and think that they're nothing but a bunch of Scrooges rubbing their hands together, but most of them have a moral compass. The percentage of jerks within that group isn't any higher with those folks than it is with the Joe 6 Packs. They aren't about to price their medications more than to cover their costs, perhaps a modest margin.

That's good. Capitalism without a moral basis can be as terrible as any other economic system. America has always had fairly moral capitalists and we usually step up and regulate those that don't want to tow the line. I think American capitalists have always understood it's not the best idea to screw over your customer base. The consumer-producer relationship is as strong as the citizen-government relationship and far more friendly in the majority of cases. People can vote with their dollars and that vote is often more powerful than our political vote.

[RiverDog]

That's good. Capitalism without a moral basis can be as terrible as any other economic system. America has always had fairly moral capitalists and we usually step up and regulate those that don't want to tow the line. I think American capitalists have always understood it's not the best idea to screw over your customer base. The consumer-producer relationship is as strong as the citizen-government relationship and far more friendly in the majority of cases. People can vote with their dollars and that vote is often more powerful than our political vote.

The people that run those companies are just as scared as you and me. They have loved ones that are at risk just like the rest of us, and they know that their bank account won't be much good to them if things get super ugly and start counting deaths by the millions.

Lots of companies are stepping up. Delta is waiving their change fees for any ticket purchased before March 1st. American Airlines is doing the same, and I expect all of the airlines to follow suit.

Gov. Cuomo put out an urgent call for health care volunteers, doctors, nurses, and attendants. Even before his plea, nearly 80,000, more than can fit into Century Link for a Hawks game, have responded. Airlines are flying them in free of charge. Hotels are opening their doors, allowing them to stay for free. Those people know better than others what the risks are to their own personal health is, yet they're rallying to their fellow Americans in droves.

Then there's this: Ford Motor executives issued a call to action March 19, after receiving an alert from the Mayo Clinic. Ford immediately assembled a task force to address the personal protective equipment shortage.

Within hours, the automaker decided to pivot from building cars to manufacturing medical devices, setting into motion the first steps that would generate tens of thousands of protective face shields for doctors, nurses and first responders during the rapidly spreading pandemic that causes respiratory crisis.

By last Thursday, the team would deliver thousands of face shields to Detroit hospitals Henry Ford, Beaumont and Detroit Receiving, and the first responders who did so much to save lives after the 9/11 terrorist attacks — the New York Police Department and New York Fire Department. The plan would go so well that the 25,000 face shields built would become 40,000, with a goal of 1 million a week. All by hand.

[Aseahawkfan]

The people that run those companies are just as scared as you and me. They have loved ones that are at risk just like the rest of us, and they know that their bank account won't be much good to them if things get super ugly and start counting deaths by the millions.

Lots of companies are stepping up. Delta is waiving their change fees for any ticket purchased before March 1st. American Airlines is doing the same, and I expect all of the airlines to follow suit.

Gov. Cuomo put out an urgent call for health care volunteers, doctors, nurses, and attendants. Even before his plea, nearly 80,000, more than can fit into Century Link for a Hawks game, have responded. Airlines are flying them in free of charge. Hotels are opening their doors, allowing them to stay for free. Those people know better than others what the risks are to their own personal health is, yet they're rallying to their fellow Americans in droves.

Then there's this: Ford Motor executives issued a call to action March 19, after receiving an alert from the Mayo Clinic. Ford immediately assembled a task force to address the personal protective equipment shortage.

Within hours, the automaker decided to pivot from building cars to manufacturing medical devices, setting into motion the first steps that would generate tens of thousands of protective face shields for doctors, nurses and first responders during the rapidly spreading pandemic that causes respiratory crisis.

By last Thursday, the team would deliver thousands of face shields to Detroit hospitals Henry Ford, Beaumont and Detroit Receiving, and the first responders who did so much to save lives after the 9/11 terrorist attacks — the New York Police Department and New York Fire Department. The plan would go so well that the 25,000 face shields built would become 40,000, with a goal of 1 million a week. All by hand.

As you well know making those assumptions about everyone is a mistake. There are some maybe that are scared, but some are looking for the opportunity to make some serious money. Make no mistake competition is kicking in to be the first to market with some cure to make a lot of money. The government should not assume altruism while some company tries to gouge for a cure.

You've already seen the price gouging for sanitizer and toilet paper. I'm sure someone wants to do the same with drugs.

[RiverDog]

As you well know making those assumptions about everyone is a mistake. There are some maybe that are scared, but some are looking for the opportunity to make some serious money. Make no mistake competition is kicking in to be the first to market with some cure to make a lot of money. The government should not assume altruism while some company tries to gouge for a cure.

You've already seen the price gouging for sanitizer and toilet paper. I'm sure someone wants to do the same with drugs.

Not from the major, legitimate companies you haven't. Distilleries are making hand sanitizer for free, donating it to hospitals and clinics.

Drug manufacturers won't be benefiting directly from the sale of coronavirus-related medicines. The publicity is enough to boost sales and increase their stock price, so they'll get their money.

There's obviously going to be a lot of gougers and scam artists out there, but they are far outweighed by those that are doing what they can to help out in a crisis.

The latest scam to watch out for will be those looking to gain access to your bank account by posing to be from the Treasury Department and saying they need it to direct deposit your $1200 check from the government.

[I-5]

What do you guys think of the issues that states are having trying to ramp up ventilator supplies and inadverantly getting into bidding wars against FEMA and whatnot? I can't think of anything more horrible if I'm the patient or or someone I know. What's the solution? I can't believe people may unnecessarily die that could have benefitted from a ventilator just because the state the reside in got outbid by another group. No system in the world is perfect, but this is crazy and tragic.

[Aseahawkfan]

I haven't heard this is happening. I'd have to see the story you are referring to. As far as I know the ventilator supply isn't yet exhausted and GM is ramping up ventilator production. So is there currently a shortage in America? I would think we should still have time to ramp up production and get it going. It's more a logistical issue at this point of moving supplies where needed.

[RiverDog]

What do you guys think of the issues that states are having trying to ramp up ventilator supplies and inadverantly getting into bidding wars against FEMA and whatnot? I can't think of anything more horrible if I'm the patient or or someone I know. What's the solution? I can't believe people may unnecessarily die that could have benefitted from a ventilator just because the state the reside in got outbid by another group. No system in the world is perfect, but this is crazy and tragic.

They need a national strategic stockpile of ventilators and other critical equipment like PPE's, or at the very least, identify a supplier, like they have with Ford, to be able to retool and ramp up production in an emergency. This is a task that the feds have to do. It's not practical for each state to have to fend for itself.

With regards to the current crisis, I have to get back to the issue of random testing and tracking the percent of positives among the general population of our major cities. This is critical in predicting where the next flare up is going to be, anticipating which area is going to need ventilators and other equipment and start pre-positioning them to meet the need. If they wait until people start showing up to the emergency rooms, it's too late.

[Aseahawkfan]

They need a national strategic stockpile of ventilators and other critical equipment like PPE's, or at the very least, identify a supplier, like they have with Ford, to be able to retool and ramp up production in an emergency. This is a task that the feds have to do. It's not practical for each state to have to fend for itself.

With regards to the current crisis, I have to get back to the issue of random testing and tracking the percent of positives among the general population of our major cities. This is critical in predicting where the next flare up is going to be, anticipating which area is going to need ventilators and other equipment and start pre-positioning them to meet the need. If they wait until people start showing up to the emergency rooms, it's too late.

From what I can see, this is all being done. Thus the rising confirmed cases, FDA emergency approval for a quick test kit, and a variety of other measures being taken to mitigate this.

[RiverDog]

From what I can see, this is all being done (random testing). Thus the rising confirmed cases, FDA emergency approval for a quick test kit, and a variety of other measures being taken to mitigate this.

Perhaps it's changed recently, but they were only doing it on suspected cases. I know for a fact that they're not doing it at random in Spokane as my daughter just told me a few days ago that they have to get an order from the person's primary care physician before they'll administer a test. Part of this is due to the lack of PPE's, partly due to lack of tests that despite what the POTUS says, is still a problem.

In order to do it right, they need to do tens of thousands of these tests, all on the same day in all of the major cities, and process the samples immediately. Only then will they get a clear picture of what the virus is doing in real time. They can't do it by simply testing those with symptoms.

[Aseahawkfan]

Perhaps it's changed recently, but they were only doing it on suspected cases. I know for a fact that they're not doing it at random in Spokane as my daughter just told me a few days ago that they have to get an order from the person's primary care physician before they'll administer a test. Part of this is due to the lack of PPE's, partly due to lack of tests that despite what the POTUS says, is still a problem.

In order to do it right, they need to do tens of thousands of these tests, all on the same day in all of the major cities, and process the samples immediately. Only then will they get a clear picture of what the virus is doing in real time. They can't do it by simply testing those with symptoms.

We've already tested a ton. As is the usual case with scale, we have a much larger population to cater to and don't really have another nation we can go to that can produce a lot really fast other than China. I'm not sure we're real high on enriching China at the moment or handing them over our testing capacity. You want to do that? For agreements to absolve China of any blame or influence our foreign policy?

Maybe people will finally start to realize why Trump hammering on sending production of everything to China was a bad idea because even our drugs and medical supplies were being produced by China. Not so great in a pandemic like this, eh?

[RiverDog]

We've already tested a ton. As is the usual case with scale, we have a much larger population to cater to and don't really have another nation we can go to that can produce a lot really fast other than China.

You're missing my point. We need real time information on this virus so we can see where the next hot spot is going to be, and since the symptoms are mild and delayed by as much as 14 days, the only way we can get a good picture of our current status and which cities are going to start getting their ER's flooded in the next two weeks is to perform random testing of the general population. It's no different than running an opinion poll to gauge public opinion.

They supposedly have tests that can get results in less than 30 minutes. They need to set up a testing facility in a large parking lot, call for volunteers and issue them an appointment time where they can drive up and be tested while remaining in their car, then perform the test. Nearly everyone would willingly submit to a test.

They need to keep performing random testing at regular intervals until a vaccine is developed. That way, we can be ahead of the game if the virus starts re-appearing this fall, which it is likely to do.

[Aseahawkfan]

You're missing my point. We need real time information on this virus so we can see where the next hot spot is going to be, and since the symptoms are mild and delayed by as much as 14 days, the only way we can get a good picture of our current status and which cities are going to start getting their ER's flooded in the next two weeks is to perform random testing of the general population. It's no different than running an opinion poll to gauge public opinion.

They supposedly have tests that can get results in less than 30 minutes. They need to set up a testing facility in a large parking lot, call for volunteers and issue them an appointment time where they can drive up and be tested while remaining in their car, then perform the test. Nearly everyone would willingly submit to a test.

They need to keep performing random testing at regular intervals until a vaccine is developed. That way, we can be ahead of the game if the virus starts re-appearing this fall, which it is likely to do.

The 15 minute tests were just approved and going into production. It will be available soon.

You're missing my point in that we don't have that manufacturing base and have to set it up to make tests. The WHO tests you wanted were produced by China. Do you want to enrich China for testing during a pandemic they probably lied about?

Another problem with why we can't ramp up as fast as we would like is because medical and drug manufacturing base is also in China. What part of having to build this thing up again are you missing? It's just another example of how having so much manufacturing done outside of America isn't the smartest idea.

It is amazing how a virus like this suddenly makes you dig into how things run. The world is so tied to China right now as far as supply chains that there is no way we can disentangle from them easily and cheaply. We have built that monster in China with our money and now we are bound together economically like Siamese twins that if broken apart, both will suffer tremendously.

[RiverDog]

The 15 minute tests were just approved and going into production. It will be available soon.

Yup, and they can supposedly manufacture 50,000 of them per day. Hopefully they can get them into circulation quickly. It's the key to fighting this disease.

You're missing my point in that we don't have that manufacturing base and have to set it up to make tests. The WHO tests you wanted were produced by China. Do you want to enrich China for testing during a pandemic they probably lied about?

Another problem with why we can't ramp up as fast as we would like is because medical and drug manufacturing base is also in China. What part of having to build this thing up again are you missing? It's just another example of how having so much manufacturing done outside of America isn't the smartest idea.

I'm talking about what we need, not what we have. We obviously currently do not have the capability to test on the scale that we need to be in order to administer random tests in the quantity necessary to do meaningful, real time sampling.

And as far as enriching China goes, I don't care who we get the materials from or who does the manufacturing so long as they are accurate and they can deliver sufficient quantity in a timely manner. This isn't about enriching another country, it's about saving lives. That was part of our problem in the first place. The CDC insisted that we use our own test.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm talking about what we need, not what we have. We obviously currently do not have the capability to test on the scale that we need to be in order to administer random tests in the quantity necessary to do meaningful, real time sampling.

And as far as enriching China goes, I don't care who we get the materials from or who does the manufacturing so long as they are accurate and they can deliver sufficient quantity in a timely manner. This isn't about enriching another country, it's about saving lives. That was part of our problem in the first place. The CDC insisted that we use our own test.

I disagree. We also have to not set ourselves up for problems. If some other nation thinks they can infect us, then make a bunch of money off us paying for tests and the cure that is as bad as paying off terrorists. America must prove it can handle this pandemic using resources within the nation. I would never support allowing another nation to enrich themselves selling us tests for a virus they did not handle well or even worse spread intentionally if that happened.

America needs a wake up call and we're getting one for making sure not only can we handle a pandemic, but can we handle it internally.

So we're not likely to agree at all on this one as I think handling it domestically is a high priority, even over lives and slower testing.