School Shootings

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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:32 pm

RiverDog wrote:I was speaking of non violent means. We have a better chance of controlling the government by making sure that our elected officials are responsible to those that put them in office. It means staying informed and not allowing ourselves to be controlled by the media, to view the news from multiple sources and come to our own conclusions.


Non-violent means is not effective against all tyrants or even the majority. I listed for you numerous and will do so again from recent memory: Saddam Hussein, Iran's Ayatollah, The Taliban, Russian Communism and now Dictatorship, Chinese Communism, The Khmer Rouge, the psychopathic warlords in Africa.

It wouldn't make any difference if every citizen was armed with and M16. They don't work well against tanks, and as the Syrian rebels found out, they don't work well against poison gas.


You're thinking short-term. They will work when the civilian population with M-16s cuts off tank refueling depots, ammunition replenishment, and the people having to leave to eat and take a rest. Armies of men are still useful because you can use them in insurgencies to cut off the supply of machines which are far harder to keep active. I guarantee you that 300 million people armed with M-16s would make a huge difference against a 500,000 person military.

You want to have that argument, we can have it. I'll break down how an insurgency force 300 million strong with M-16s can outlast a 500,000 person army with tanks, planes, and the like. That in fact an armed and prepared population is one of the greatest defenses and checks and balances on government in history. It is exactly why historically leaders of nations have taken very extensive steps to disarm populations they plan to conquer and create elite military and police classes to control civilian populations. Even in Germany Hitler made it a point to disarm Jews to make them easier to round up and kill. In America we made sure to disarm Native and African populations to make them easier to control.

A disarmed population is far easier to tyrannize and I would argue that they are in a state of tyranny as soon as they give up their weapons because they no longer have the capacity to use force to disarm their government. They have literally put themselves at the mercy of their government police and military.

Agreed. It's a good justification for maintaining the 2nd. But you don't need an assault weapon to maintain that attitude and have a basic knowledge of weaponry.


I believe you do. The weapons of the soldier are different than a hunting rifle or pistol. It's why so many people want them gone. They are designed for a purpose and that purpose is one the civilian population should have access to.

I don't believe that it's an effective check and balance


Why? You really believe only the government should have access to military and police use of force? And that the civilian population should be what....disarmed and at their mercy? At what point would you consider yourself tyrannized? How much would they have to raise your taxes to feel tyrannized? When they do and you don't have that M-16 to join with your neighbors, what would you do then? March like all these protesters? Vote? What if they ignore your vote, where do you draw the line? When you do need it? If they remove your right to have it and you did it to yourself, then what do you do?

but I do agree that it would be very problematic to round up every assault weapon in the country and toss them into a burn pile. It's a similar problem that they had during prohibition and IMO would lead to more gangs and underworld crime just as it did in prohibition.


In nearly every nation where they disarmed the population crime has risen. All disarming the population does is set them up to be prey for criminals and aggressive governments. Why do you think so many liberal organizations want gun control? Just because? It is far easier to push a socialist agenda on a disarmed population. They use the power of legislation to push it and then the police and military to enforce it against a disarmed population that can no longer resist them. It's called mob tyranny. Our Founders were against it which is why they intended a Republic based on individual rights and even bothered to add an Amendment like the 2nd Amendment.

You seem to have some knowledge of the Constitution? Why exactly do you think they included an Amendment like the 2nd Amendment and why so high on the list? Do you ever ask yourself that question? It seems not many do. I know I did, then started to research why would the Founders of a nation based on liberty ensconce in the Constitution an amendment that militarizes the people of that nation? If it were just for national defense, they could have formed a standing army like Great Britain. But for some reason they decided to make it an individual right in a document they clearly made to put checks and balances on government power. Why would they make arming citizens such an important part of that if it was not a quality check and balance?

What I have said is that I would be agreeable with banning all military style weaponry if I could be assured that the gun control crowd would stop there. But when I look at our past history from 1963 through the present day and see polls where there are already 20% of the American population that want to repeal the 2nd, it makes me hesitate.


As I said, you are not a free people if you are not armed people capable of forcibly unseating your government. The Founders knew this. Anyone that understands that all government is based on force understands this. Only dumbass socialists and liberals believe that a disarmed people is still a free people because their size has been brainwashed to believe that only the government is capable of military or police action. Don't buy into it. An armed population that can defend themselves violently is the best defense from governmental tyranny that at people can be provided. Does it guarantee victory against a tyrant or ensure a perfectly free state? No, nothing does. Does it at least ensure that if it should come to it you as a people have the means to violently dissolve your government amongst the population so you can at least fight if it comes to it? Yes, it does.

And that is all the Constitution is meant to guarantee is that the means for liberty is there be it the freedom to verbally oppose your government, assemble to talk about opposing your government, and if necessary take up arms to oppose your government. None of them guaranteed to provide a positive result, but all of them provided so that the American people as a whole might be able to defend their life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness on all fronts as needed. I would not give up any of those rights due to fear caused by a handful of very evil people any more than I would give up my car due to irresponsible drivers which kill or maim far more people each year. Don't buy into the hype and BS pushed by the anti-second amendment lobby.

And citing other nations as examples of reduced gun violence due to the numbers is like removing cars and saying we reduced vehicular deaths. It's a no brainer that removing something from society is going to cause a reduction in that type of violence, but still doesn't resolve the underlying issues that cause the violence or trouble in the first place. Fight the socialists that want to take our liberty, RD. Fight them to the last. They have an agenda they raise up every time these mass shootings happen without ever bringing up the fact that mass shootings are exceedingly rare, rarer than car accidents, drug overdoses, and other crap they don't seem to be much against.

I'll leave it there. I can't make the point any stronger than I have. I feel like I live in the end times of America where people have forgotten what keeps them free and are willingly giving up their rights and idea of America because it seems like it is ok to do so, like we can all let our guard down because tryanny and evil have been banished from the world forever. I don't personally that is the case, but it shows how much people go to sleep when the bread and circuses are plentiful and entertaining. They no longer want to maintain the vigilance, values, and hard work that has made this nation extraordinary. All I know for certain is the weakness that so many are willing to teach their children and future generations makes it far easier for me to empower my children to excel past them and maintain strength while society teaches weakness, acquiescence to the masses, and insouciance.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:37 pm

The weapons of the soldier are different than a hunting rifle or pistol. It's why so many people want them gone. They are designed for a purpose and that purpose is one the civilian population should have access to.


Are you talking about the AR-15? If not, which are you talking about that are currently legal and what makes them uniquely dangerous compared to a bog-standard semi-auto?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:13 pm

burrrton wrote:Are you talking about the AR-15? If not, which are you talking about that are currently legal and what makes them uniquely dangerous compared to a bog-standard semi-auto?


Semi-auto is military style. If they remove one, they will remove them all at some point. Semi-automatic rifles with high capacity magazines could all be classified as military style be the AR-15, M-16, or FN Fal or any of the assault weapons. Semi-auto with a high capacity magazine is the standard of the soldier. High capacity so you don't have to reload in a prolonged firefight and semi-auto to fire at need in an accurate and controlled manner that dose not deplete ammunition uselessly.

That's why I don't care about the argument of automatic weapons with the civilian population. Automatic weapons have their uses, but they are not the standard for military excellence as full automatic mode is only useful in very specific circumstances, otherwise just a complete waste of ammunition and can damage your weapon. Even 3 round burst mode is not the military standard for shooters. The military standard for a good rifleman is steady, consistent use of a military-style, semiautomatic rifle. That has proven most effective in mass warfare between human personnel and insurgency fights. That's the right civilian population should look to maintain.

The 2nd Amendment should not at all be discussed as an amendment for hunting or standard home protection. It should be made clear that the American people desire to maintain their right of violent revolution should it come to it. And that means they should be able to own and maintain training in the standard arm of the infantrymen: the military assault style rifle. I believe it is all the civilian population as a whole would need to launch an insurgency sufficient to retake their government should it come to it.

Though in the face of increasing automation and force multiplication, it may be too little too late. When you can send drones or robots operated by single users capable of killing on a mass scale with little to no personal risk to the governmental agency doing so, we may have a serious problem. Robotic force multipliers are becoming more and more common. That will ultimately be our undoing. That's why I told Riverdog the tools for extreme tyranny have only existed for 30 or 40 years. Before even a tyrant had to use a human military to operate the machines of war or control an area, one that had to be supplied with food and could be killed or deprived. It required a huge amount of manpower to prosecute a war.

These past few wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are showing that manpower requirements are lowering. We are starting to automate the machines of war more and more. Drone assassinations are becoming increasingly common. We're starting to see robotic bombers and likely robotic tanks soon as well as all types of smart bombs that can be deployed by fewer and fewer people. I don't fear AI so much as a malign human intelligence in control of an automated military force with little need of food or even a habitable environment. One of things that holds back nuclear, chemical, or biological attack is that it endangers your troops as well as the people it intends to kill and can make a place uninhabitable. Once you rely on robots, they don't care about biological or chemical attacks and may even be build to operate in nuclear war zones. Once you have a robotic army, it opens up warfare options that did not previously exist. It's a very real concern for future generations.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby burrrton » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:43 am

Semi-auto is military style.


Statements like this are why people who are familiar with firearms don't listen to people who aren't. Honestly.

[edit]

And no, the Second Amendment is not intended to be a Get Out of Jail Free Card for people who decide to take up arms against their country. Jesus. That's not a discussion I can have now, though. I'll see if I have the energy tomorrow... C'mon, guys.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:42 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Robotic force multipliers are becoming more and more common. That will ultimately be our undoing. That's why I told Riverdog the tools for extreme tyranny have only existed for 30 or 40 years. Before even a tyrant had to use a human military to operate the machines of war or control an area, one that had to be supplied with food and could be killed or deprived. It required a huge amount of manpower to prosecute a war.

These past few wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are showing that manpower requirements are lowering. We are starting to automate the machines of war more and more. Drone assassinations are becoming increasingly common. We're starting to see robotic bombers and likely robotic tanks soon as well as all types of smart bombs that can be deployed by fewer and fewer people. I don't fear AI so much as a malign human intelligence in control of an automated military force with little need of food or even a habitable environment. One of things that holds back nuclear, chemical, or biological attack is that it endangers your troops as well as the people it intends to kill and can make a place uninhabitable. Once you rely on robots, they don't care about biological or chemical attacks and may even be build to operate in nuclear war zones. Once you have a robotic army, it opens up warfare options that did not previously exist. It's a very real concern for future generations.


You're right, our military has reduced the number of "boots on the ground" and piloted aircraft has gradually been going to more stand off type weaponry like drones and cruise missiles. But you're overlooking a huge logistical and support "army" required to manage those weapons, along with the defense industry that produces and maintains them, referred to as the military-industrial complex, still in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. Those people are just as critical to war operations as the guy behind the joystick.

You bring up a lot of good points regarding the 2nd Amendment, but I'm just not buying your "skynet" rationale.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Fri May 18, 2018 12:22 pm

It is Friday, it is almost the end of the school year, so of course there is a shooting in a school by a fellow student who "borrowed" his fathers guns.

My first thought were to Andrew Paddock who lost his daughter in the Parkland massacre. He was all over the news shows PLEADING with those in charge to HARDEN SCHOOLS FIRST LIKE WE DO OUR AIR PORTS AND COURT HOUSES and deal with the issue of guns secondary. But, FIRST harden the schools so that this wouldn't happen again Mr. Paddock said to any who would listen.

Today, he won't have to say the he told us so, because the horror that OUR OWN COMPLACENCY has struck yet again. When WILL we END this paralysis???
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri May 18, 2018 3:56 pm

RiverDog wrote:You're right, our military has reduced the number of "boots on the ground" and piloted aircraft has gradually been going to more stand off type weaponry like drones and cruise missiles. But you're overlooking a huge logistical and support "army" required to manage those weapons, along with the defense industry that produces and maintains them, referred to as the military-industrial complex, still in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. Those people are just as critical to war operations as the guy behind the joystick.

You bring up a lot of good points regarding the 2nd Amendment, but I'm just not buying your "skynet" rationale.


The nice thing about fact-based information it doesn't matter if you're buying it. It's what is happening. AI and robotic units are being built with the intent to supplant the need for a human workforce. A percentage of wealthy, influential people (including Americans) are building a complete military including a supply chain with minimal need for humans. Even robots will be repairing robots at some point. It's like the nuclear bomb before it was made and became a part of our existence. People wondered why humans would keep trying to build something so obviously devastating to their existence, yet they kept on doing it. Now we live in this world with a weapon so massively destructive that we could exterminate all life on this planet. The same could be said for biological and chemical warfare. All of this mostly developed in the last 60 to 70 years. Now we're building robots that will make humans obsolete. We know we're doing this. The majority of the race literally is watching this happen telling themselves it will all be ok. They're doing it for our benefit. Tell me, do you feel nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons are for your benefit?

So you have a human race building Artificially Intelligent robots with nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons in existence and you're not convinced this is perhaps a bad idea for humanity? The only convincing argument is the necessity of doing it because if we don't do it, then someone else will that will use it against us. This same reason for standing militaries and almost everything else we do that is designed to harm humanity, yet we can't seem to stop ourselves. We're going to be at a last stand point and we won't at all be ready.

To be quite honest, I figure the human race is heading for the The Matrix or The Terminator the moment they accomplish the dream of an artificially intelligent machine that can self-replicate. Yet at the same time I completely understand why we as as a race won't stop pursuing it. It's just too damn interesting to stop. The creation of a superior life form made of artificial parts constructed in our likeness capable of so much more than us is too damn much of a carrot to hang in front of mankind. It's in essence immortality absent the flesh and blood. How can we resist the allure of it even if it means diminishing humans and creating a being higher on the food chain?

Fortunately for you and I, we'll be dead before this happens, more than likely. Though I would love to see it purely because it would be so interesting to see. It is in essence evolution through technological development. We've been doing it for some time with our food supply, transportation, and the like. We don't see it as evolution because we've been taught that is a purely biological process causing physical change in a biological organism. But our technological advancement has accomplished exactly this feat and had the same effect on humanity as evolution. I imagine genetic changes may at some point follow, but they may be technological in nature. We may not turn into the huge-minded superhuman of science fiction, but instead we might create a replacement out of artificial parts we construct by changing the nature of the elements we find within our universe, possibly down to the subatomic level. The end result will be a being capable of surviving an advancing at a much faster rate than the evolution of a biological life form, thus accomplishing the ultimate survival goal of evolution by taking command of it utilizing the advanced intelligence of the mind.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Sat May 19, 2018 2:12 pm

Did you miss the A-I thread? I thought this thread was about school shootings....

The media went back to "regular" programming faster than they EVER have after a school shooting with casualties in the double digits.

I find it akin to how we all became desensitized to high speed chases, they became so common place we mostly ignored them so the media started ignoring them.

You know, I was shocked about how fast not only the "big 4" news networks or the cable news giants CNN, FBN, and MSNBC all went to regular programming quicker than they ever have before in this type of mass shooting.

Experts have been warning us that we were in danger as a society of becoming "desensitized" to all of the violence especially the mass killings in public places especially our schools.

Yet, even though we were warned, we ARE here, we have become desensitized to it and that is very sad.

I just had an EPIPHANY! Maybe if we as a society start to IGNORE these shootings, just treat them as yet one more BORING felony that happens every day in America and there in nothing to get excited about.

THEN, since their FACES and NAMES are NOT splashed all over the news and internet gaining them a SICK NOTORIETY and an even SICKER FOLLOWING maybe then these mass killings, these mass shootings, these SCHOOL SHOOTINGS will lost their allure and they will drop down to being RARE OCCURRANCES once again.

Do I really Believe this?? Are you kidding me?? How could I believe such nonsense, but, something has to give, it just DOES!
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat May 19, 2018 3:02 pm

Seahawks4Ever wrote:Did you miss the A-I thread? I thought this thread was about school shootings....

The media went back to "regular" programming faster than they EVER have after a school shooting with casualties in the double digits.

I find it akin to how we all became desensitized to high speed chases, they became so common place we mostly ignored them so the media started ignoring them.

You know, I was shocked about how fast not only the "big 4" news networks or the cable news giants CNN, FBN, and MSNBC all went to regular programming quicker than they ever have before in this type of mass shooting.

Experts have been warning us that we were in danger as a society of becoming "desensitized" to all of the violence especially the mass killings in public places especially our schools.

Yet, even though we were warned, we ARE here, we have become desensitized to it and that is very sad.

I just had an EPIPHANY! Maybe if we as a society start to IGNORE these shootings, just treat them as yet one more BORING felony that happens every day in America and there in nothing to get excited about.

THEN, since their FACES and NAMES are NOT splashed all over the news and internet gaining them a SICK NOTORIETY and an even SICKER FOLLOWING maybe then these mass killings, these mass shootings, these SCHOOL SHOOTINGS will lost their allure and they will drop down to being RARE OCCURRANCES once again.

Do I really Believe this?? Are you kidding me?? How could I believe such nonsense, but, something has to give, it just DOES!


What can we really do with school shootings? Our options are:

1. Drastically limit the rights of responsible gun owners to try to stop singular crazy individuals from committing acts of mass homicide with guns. Basically, limit the rights of 99.9999999999% of the population to stop the .00000001% of the population from acting irresponsibly. That is definitely a slippery slope situation.

2. Spend the money to harden our schools. Install metal detectors and security forces to screen students going in and out of schools. I'd probably support this option even with a tax increase.

3. A mix other laws and procedures taken by law enforcement to spy and track people that are risky due to taking medications or posting stupid comments or wearing shirts or the like. Basically, Patriot Act style surveillance on the general population to track threats.

What do you do when some crazy person decides to take up a weapon and massacre people in random locations that usually lack protection? What do you when someone wants to launch a terrorist attack against people? What do you do when someone wants to commit suicide? People want to take these measures to stop these actions, but they keep on happening. Way more people than die in mass shootings die of suicide every year. Way more people die of car accidents. Way more people die of random crimes from beatings and stabbings or smaller scale shootings. We can't stop those either. Basically, we can't stop the crazy when it comes to humans. Some human minds break and they do unfathomably vile acts when that happens. What do you want people to do? Fix something that can't be fixed in a nation of 350 million free people and another 20 million or so we don't even track? We can do our best and hope something works. Comparing America to other smaller nations that are less demographically diverse certainly isn't a good way to compare how to handle the situation here.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Sun May 20, 2018 10:22 am

Here is another one for you, since January 1st. 2018 more STUDENTS have DIED in their schools than MILITARY SERVICE people have died in ACTION. That is a FACT that no one thought we would EVER reach.

I like your harden the schools first, that seems to be a NO BRAINER yet Andrew Paddock who lost a daughter in the Parkland massacre and he has been trying to get people to MOVE on getting the job of hardening schools and all he has been met with is resistance, and platitudes.

We are in truly sad times.

Jesus, quit daddaling around and get your fanny back here, not in "spirit" but IN PERSON!

One appearance. WITH ATTITUDE! That's all it would take to straighten things out down here for a good long while. Jesus, if you and your father would have demonstrated any kind of consistency maybe your children could have followed the rules a bit better. I mean, are we REALLY expected to "turn the other cheek" when someone is out to KILL either you or your children??? The educated understand you said "Thou shalt not MURDER" not thou shall not KILL. That s a HUGE difference, you think maybe your prophets could have made that one crystal clear??? I know your are supposed to be infallible, but, if you "made" us in YOUR image and we make MISTAKES maybe YOU can make mistakes too, just sayin.

Now, before people start screaming BLASPHEMY I just want to say; I have had a "relationship" with Jesus for more than 50 years he IS my LORD and SAVIOUR and he knows EXACTLY how I feel about EVERYTHING. I was born with both a BRAIN and FREE WILL and God the FATHER knows and understands this and expects me to EXCERCISE BOTH. I give ALL GLORY to ALL that I accomplish and any failures are mine because they are learning experiences.

I find most people who consider themselves to be pious are actually HYPOCTRITES and only use religion as a way to further their political and financial situations. Look at how all of the Evangelical "Wealth" Ministries (mostly white) that are 1000% behind Trump, no matter what he says and does as opposed to the mostly black Evangelical Ministers who are not "for" the policies that the Trump Admin. has been advancing. But, according to the media they don't report that nuance.

I have strong theological differences with Evangelical Teaching. They teach that Faith and faith alone will get a person "saved". That IS WRONG and AGAINST what IS taught in the Holy Bible and that is Faith without Works is DEAD! Just as Works without Faith is DEAD. It takes BOTH FAITH and WORKS and anybody or any entity that teaches anything different is not from GOD but from SATAN.

Satan can quote the Holy Bible frontwards and backwards. Those that knowingly teach FALSEHOODS and these Evangelical Ministers have all read the Bible and know that they leading the flock astray.

It is one thing to sin, but to be a pastor and lead people away from God will be punished worse than regular sinners. Way worse!

Some of course believe" they can "opt out" of God's judgement simply by not believing. In fact, I say that MANY priests, especially those wealth ministry preachers have never really believed in God and/or Jesus or any other deity other than themselves and only use religion to fool the masses and make money.

There are those that actually believe that they don't need a God or a "just Jesus" to be a moral person. Yes, now that morality has a definition I guess one could be "moral" and not attribute that to a belief in a god. But, BEFORE Jesus walked this Earth 2K years ago no one taught that people should base their thoughts and actions on LOVE and MORALITY. I mean, LOVE of one's enemies was as radical a thought then as it is now. Really folks, that's what it is all about any how, LOVE.

That's it, LOVE, in ALL its aspects. That is why you don't need any fancy buildings, fancy robes, fancy rituals, you don't need any of that. In other words, you don't need ORGANIZED INSTITUTIONALIZED RELIGION! Satan is all about that CONTROL and that's what institutions were invented for, CONTROL!

"A shining city on a hill" Washington D.C.??? NO! That describes Jerusalem in the time of Solomon yet even that fair city was just a poor imitation of God's "capital" in HEAVEN.

Man cannot, and will not EVER build a UTOPIAN SOCIETY. I firmly believe that the United States experiment has been the closest we will ever get but we are just a poor imitation of a true utopia. It has been pretty darn good though, and NOW we have these MALCONTENTS with POWER and MONEY and they are trying to tear down our republic. What's really insulting is that they are waving their supposed love of Jesus all the while desecrating EVERYTHING Jesus believes in and teaches, notice I did not use the past tense! JESUS LIVES!!! He IS on the way and people best be prepared or they will face the consequences. Don't LIE and say you were not warned!!! Have your lamp, trim your new wick, have plenty of lamp oil (and do not lend any out) and KEEP WATCH, don't be caught napping...Those with ears to hear HEAR! Those with eyes to see SEE.

It IS time to BEAR WITNESS and TESTIFY; ALL Glory to Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior! My Lord and Savior!!!
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Sun May 20, 2018 12:21 pm

Seahawks4Ever wrote:I just had an EPIPHANY! Maybe if we as a society start to IGNORE these shootings, just treat them as yet one more BORING felony that happens every day in America and there in nothing to get excited about.

THEN, since their FACES and NAMES are NOT splashed all over the news and internet gaining them a SICK NOTORIETY and an even SICKER FOLLOWING maybe then these mass killings, these mass shootings, these SCHOOL SHOOTINGS will lost their allure and they will drop down to being RARE OCCURRANCES once again.


Yea, and quit lowering the flags to half staff every time a shooting like this occurs. We don't lower it when there's multiple fatalities in an auto accident but we do when there's a shooting with multiple victims.

Unless we wanted to adapt some very costly, Draconian measures as ASF has noted, we will never be able to legislate this problem away. The best that can be hoped for is to mitigate the losses when shootings do occur, such as happened on several occasions recently, limiting the casualties to fewer than 10 instead of 30 or 40. It will only go away when society changes back to the value system of what it was like in the 50's and earlier. I have no desire to live in a police state.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby I-5 » Tue May 24, 2022 5:00 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:What do you do when some crazy person decides to take up a weapon and massacre people in random locations that usually lack protection? What do you when someone wants to launch a terrorist attack against people? What do you do when someone wants to commit suicide? People want to take these measures to stop these actions, but they keep on happening. Way more people than die in mass shootings die of suicide every year. Way more people die of car accidents. Way more people die of random crimes from beatings and stabbings or smaller scale shootings. We can't stop those either. Basically, we can't stop the crazy when it comes to humans. Some human minds break and they do unfathomably vile acts when that happens. What do you want people to do? Fix something that can't be fixed in a nation of 350 million free people and another 20 million or so we don't even track? We can do our best and hope something works. Comparing America to other smaller nations that are less demographically diverse certainly isn't a good way to compare how to handle the situation here.


Here we are again...nothing ever changes in the US, and I for one don't see our gun laws EVER changing - not even a little. The horse has left the barn so to speak, so will just continue to witness mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting....but my question is, why only the US? If it's about the mentally ill they are in every country. And yes, there have been incidents in other countries, but nothing as REGULAR as it is in the US. It's not even the exception anymore. We should full expect another mass shooting somewhere in the US next week, and no one will be surprised.

Once we saw what happened at Sandy Hook, and absolutely nothing done to change any laws, and not only that but a sizable number of people even thought it was fake....we knew it was too late to do anything about it. The only part I disagree with the statement above is I don't think of most of these mass shootings as crazies, since most of them have been well planned and scouted. I see them as pure evil, and we have the perfect environment for evil to take advantage of our laws for a few moments and inflict maximum damage in the shortest amount of time. That's just how it is and I don't see it ever changing.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue May 24, 2022 5:43 pm

I can't even fathom waking up, killing my grandmother, then going to an elementary school and massacring a bunch of children. I've owned guns. Been around people who owned guns my entire life. I've never seen anyone think such an evil act was something they wanted to do or even mention.

You really have to want to inflict pain on the world as a whole to do something this vile. Some try to tell us there are not evil people in the world, but there are. I think just as some are born with a good nature, some are born with an evil nature. This vile piece of human garbage who crawled out of the woodwork to do this vile act this time is another example of it. Why do this? I cannot fathom it.

How to stop them? I do not know. We have tightened gun laws in a lot of areas. I don't know if it is the sheer volume of people that we produce this level of scum.

If I had my way, I'd fix it the following way:

1. Schools need to be secured at this point. Second Amendment don't apply to kids in school or I doubt any court would support this. Secure and screen schools.

2. Robots. I would start building security robots to deal with this. They don't have to sleep. Provide them with nonlethal weaponry. Make them to secure schools and other areas where we need this type of security. Send them in and let them do the job on these vile animals that come out of the woodwork.

I'm really not sure what to do when you have a nation like America with an extremely high level of gun ownership, but you have these individuals who can't responsibly own a weapon. The number of mass killers a year is maybe a handful of humans out of the millions of gun owners, but they are so vile it makes you knee jerk want to punish everyone else. I'm not sure how you balance the rights of millions of responsible gun owners with the horrific evil of a handful of humans who do these vile acts. It's exceedingly frustrating.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Tue May 24, 2022 5:53 pm

I-5 wrote:Here we are again...nothing ever changes in the US, and I for one don't see our gun laws EVER changing - not even a little. The horse has left the barn so to speak, so will just continue to witness mass shooting after mass shooting after mass shooting....but my question is, why only the US? If it's about the mentally ill they are in every country. And yes, there have been incidents in other countries, but nothing as REGULAR as it is in the US. It's not even the exception anymore. We should full expect another mass shooting somewhere in the US next week, and no one will be surprised.

Once we saw what happened at Sandy Hook, and absolutely nothing done to change any laws, and not only that but a sizable number of people even thought it was fake....we knew it was too late to do anything about it. The only part I disagree with the statement above is I don't think of most of these mass shootings as crazies, since most of them have been well planned and scouted. I see them as pure evil, and we have the perfect environment for evil to take advantage of our laws for a few moments and inflict maximum damage in the shortest amount of time. That's just how it is and I don't see it ever changing.


I don't know what the answer is, but short of suspending or repealing the 2nd Amendment, there's nothing that can be done by any legislative act or executive order that's going to stop it. But that's not going to stop an endless procession of politicians that will be looking to score brownie points with their constituents proposing various laws.

I apologize for the length of this copy and paste, but I feel it's helpful to demonstrate just how many laws and actions we've taken over the past 95 years:

1927
The U.S. Congress passes the Miller Act, a law banning the mailing of concealable weapons.

1934
The National Firearms Act of 1934, regulating the manufacture, sale, and possession of fully automatic firearms like sub-machine guns is approved by Congress.

1938
The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 places the first limitations on selling ordinary firearms. Persons selling guns are required to obtain a Federal Firearms License, at an annual cost of $1, and to maintain records of the name and address of persons to whom firearms are sold. Gun sales to persons convicted of violent felonies were prohibited.

1968
The Gun Control Act of 1968 is enacted for the purpose of “keeping firearms out of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them because of age, criminal background, or incompetence.”

The act regulates imported guns, expands the gun-dealer licensing and record-keeping requirements, and places specific limitations on the sale of handguns. The list of persons banned from buying guns is expanded to include persons convicted of any non-business related felony, persons found to be mentally incompetent, and users of illegal drugs.

1972
The federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is created, listing as part of its mission the control of illegal use and sale of firearms and the enforcement of Federal firearms laws. The ATF issues firearms licenses and conducts firearms licensee qualification and compliance inspections.

1976
The District of Columbia enacts an anti-handgun law which also requires registration of all rifles and shotguns within the District of Columbia.

1986
The Armed Career Criminal Act increases penalties for possession of firearms by persons not qualified to own them under the Gun Control Act of 1986.

The Firearms Owners Protection Act (Public Law 99-308) relaxes some restrictions on gun and ammunition sales and establishes mandatory penalties for use of firearms during the commission of a crime.

The Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act (Public Law 99-408) bans possession of "cop killer" bullets capable of penetrating bulletproof clothing.

1988
President Ronald Reagan signs the Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988, making it illegal to manufacture, import, sell, ship, deliver, possess, transfer, or receive any firearm that is not detectable by walk-through metal detectors. The law prohibited guns from not containing enough metal to trigger security screening machines found in airports, courthouses and other secure areas accessible to the public.

1989
California bans the possession of semiautomatic assault weapons following the massacre of five children on a Stockton, Calif., school playground.

1990
The Crime Control Act of 1990 (Public Law 101-647) bans the manufacturing and importing semiautomatic assault weapons in the United States. "Gun-free school zones" are established, carrying specific penalties for violations.

1994
The Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act imposes a five-day waiting period on the purchase of a handgun and requires that local law enforcement agencies conduct background checks on purchasers of handguns.

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 prohibits the sale, manufacture, importation, or possession of several specific types of assault-type weapons for a 10-year period. However, the law expires on September 13, 2004, after Congress fails to reauthorize it.


The Florida Supreme Court upholds a jury's $11.5 million verdict against Kmart for selling a gun to an intoxicated man who used the gun to shoot his estranged girlfriend.

Major American gun manufacturers voluntarily agree to include child safety trigger devices on all new handguns.

June 1998
A Justice Department report indicates the blocking of some 69,000 handgun sales during 1997 when the Brady Bill pre-sale background checks were required.

July 1998
An amendment requiring a trigger lock mechanism to be included with every handgun sold in the United States is defeated in the Senate.

But the Senate approves an amendment requiring gun dealers to have trigger locks available for sale and creating federal grants for gun safety and education programs.

October 1998
New Orleans becomes the first U.S. city to file suit against gunmakers, firearms trade associations, and gun dealers. The city's suit seeks recovery of costs attributed to gun-related violence.

Nov. 12, 1998
Chicago files a $433 million suit against local gun dealers and makers alleging that oversupplying local markets provided guns to criminals.

Nov. 17, 1998
A negligence suit against gunmaker Beretta brought by the family of a 14-year-old boy killed by another boy with a Beretta handgun is dismissed by a California jury.

Nov. 30, 1998
Permanent provisions of the Brady Act go into effect. Gun dealers are now required to initiate a pre-sale criminal background check of all gun buyers through the newly created National Instant Criminal Background Check (NICS) computer system.

une 1998
A Justice Department report indicates the blocking of some 69,000 handgun sales during 1997 when the Brady Bill pre-sale background checks were required.

July 1998
An amendment requiring a trigger lock mechanism to be included with every handgun sold in the United States is defeated in the Senate.

But the Senate approves an amendment requiring gun dealers to have trigger locks available for sale and creating federal grants for gun safety and education programs.

October 1998
New Orleans becomes the first U.S. city to file suit against gunmakers, firearms trade associations, and gun dealers. The city's suit seeks recovery of costs attributed to gun-related violence.

Nov. 12, 1998
Chicago files a $433 million suit against local gun dealers and makers alleging that oversupplying local markets provided guns to criminals.

Nov. 17, 1998
A negligence suit against gunmaker Beretta brought by the family of a 14-year-old boy killed by another boy with a Beretta handgun is dismissed by a California jury.

Nov. 30, 1998
Permanent provisions of the Brady Act go into effect. Gun dealers are now required to initiate a pre-sale criminal background check of all gun buyers through the newly created National Instant Criminal Background Check (NICS) computer system.

Dec. 1, 1998
The NRA files suit in federal court attempting to block the FBI's collection of information on firearm buyers.

Dec. 5, 1998
President Bill Clinton announces that the instant background check system had prevented 400,000 illegal gun purchases. The claim was called "misleading" by the NRA.

January 1999
Civil suits against gunmakers seeking to recover costs of gun-related violence were filed in Bridgeport, Conn., and Miami-Dade County, Fla.

April 20, 1999
At Columbine High School near Denver, students Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold shoot and kill 12 other students and a teacher, and wound 24 others before killing themselves. The attack renews debate on the need for more restrictive gun control laws.

May 20, 1999
By a 51-50 vote, with the tie-breaker vote cast by Vice President Al Gore, the U.S. Senate passes a bill requiring trigger locks on all newly manufactured handguns and extending waiting period and background check requirements to sales of firearms at gun shows.

Aug. 24, 1999
The Los Angeles County, Calif., Board of Supervisors votes 3-2 to ban the Great Western Gun Show, billed as the "World's Largest Gun Show" from the Pomona fairgrounds where it had been held for the last 30 years.

Sept. 13, 2004
After lengthy and heated debate, Congress allows the 10-year-old Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 banning the sale of 19 types of military-style assault weapons to expire.

December 2004
Congress fails to continue funding for President George W. Bush’s 2001 gun control program, Project Safe Neighborhoods.

Massachusetts becomes the first state to implement an electronic instant gun buyer background check system with fingerprint scanning for gun licenses and gun purchases.

January 2005
California bans the manufacture, sale, distribution or import of the powerful .50-caliber BMG, or Browning machine gun rifle.

October 2005
President Bush signs the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act limiting the ability of victims of crimes in which guns were used to sue firearms manufacturers and dealers. The law includes an amendment requiring all new guns to come with trigger locks.

January 2008
In a move supported by both opponents and advocates of gun control laws, President Bush signs the National Instant Criminal Background Check Improvement Act requiring gun-buyer background checks to screen for legally declared mentally ill individuals, who are ineligible to buy firearms.

June 26, 2008
In its landmark decision in the case of District of Columbia v. Heller, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment affirmed the rights of individuals to own firearms. The ruling also overturns a 32-year-old ban on the sale or possession of handguns in the District of Columbia.

February 2010
A federal law signed by President Barack Obama took effect allowing licensed gun owners to bring firearms into national parks and wildlife refuges as long as they are allowed by state law.

Dec. 9, 2013
The Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988, requiring that all guns must contain enough metal to be detectable by security screening machines was extended through 2035.

July 29, 2015
In an effort to close the so-called “gun show loophole” allowing gun sales conducted without Brady Act background checks, U.S. Rep. Jackie Speier (D-Calif.) introduces the Fix Gun Checks Act of 2015 (H.R. 3411), to require background checks for all gun sales, including sales made over the internet and at gun shows.

June 12, 2016
President Obama again calls on Congress to enact or renew a law prohibiting the sale and possession of assault-style weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines after a man identified as Omar Mateen kills 49 people in an Orlando, Fla., gay nightclub on June 12, using an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle. In a call to 9-1-1 he made during the attack, Mateen told police he had pledged his allegiance to the radical Islamic terrorist group ISIS.

September 2017
A bill titled “Sportsmen Heritage and Recreational Enhancement Act,” or SHARE Act (H.R. 2406) advances to the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives. While the main purpose of the bill is to expand access to public land for, hunting, fishing, and recreational shooting, a provision added by Rep. Jeff Duncan (R-S.C.) called The Hearing Protection Act would reduce the current federal restrictions on purchasing firearm silencers, or suppressors.

Currently, the restrictions on silencer purchases are similar to those for machine guns, including extensive background checks, waiting periods, and transfer taxes. Duncan’s provision would eliminate those restrictions.

Backers of Duncan’s provision argue that it would help recreational hunters and shooters protect themselves from hearing loss. Opponents say it would make it harder for police and civilians to locate the source of gunfire, potentially resulting in more casualties.

Witnesses to the deadly mass shooting in Las Vegas on Oct. 1, 2017, reported that the gunfire coming from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Resort sounded like “popping” that was at first mistaken as fireworks. Many argue that the inability to hear the gunshots made the shooting even more deadly.

Oct. 1, 2017
Barely over a year after the Orlando shooting, a man identified as Stephen Craig Paddock opens fire on an outdoor music festival in Las Vegas. Shooting from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay hotel, Paddock kills at least 59 people and wounds more than 500 others.

Among the at least 23 firearms found in Paddock’s room were legally-purchased, semi-automatic AR-15 rifles which had been fitted with commercially-available accessories known as “bump stocks,” which allow semi-automatic rifles to be fired as if in fully-automatic mode of up to nine rounds per second. Under a law enacted in 2010, bump stocks are treated as legal, after-market accessories.

In the aftermath of the incident, lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have called for laws specifically banning bump stocks, while others have also called for a renewal of the assault weapons ban.

Oct. 4, 2017
Less than a week after the Las Vegas shooting, U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) introduces the “Automatic Gunfire Prevention Act” that would ban the sale and possession of bump stocks and other devices that allow a semiautomatic weapon to fire like a fully-automatic weapon.

The bill states:

“It shall be unlawful for any person to import, sell, manufacture, transfer or possess, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, a trigger crank, a bump-fire device or any part, combination of parts, component, device, attachment or accessory that is designed or functions to accelerate the rate of fire of a semiautomatic rifle but not convert the semiautomatic rifle into a machine gun.”
Oct. 5, 2017
Sen. Feinstein introduces the Background Check Completion Act. Feinstein says the bill would close a loophole in the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act.

Feinstein said:

“Current law allows gun sales to proceed after 72 hours—even if background checks aren’t approved. This is a dangerous loophole that could allow criminals and those with mental illness to complete their purchase of firearms even though it would be unlawful for them to possess them.”
The Background Check Completion Act would require that a background check be fully completed before any gun buyer who purchases a gun from a federally-licensed firearms dealer (FFL) can take possession of the gun.

Feb. 21, 2018
Just days after the February 14, 2018, mass shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, President Donald Trump orders the Justice Department and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to review "bump fire stocks"—devices that allow a semi-automatic rifle to be fired similarly to a fully-automatic weapon.

Trump had previously indicated that he might support a new federal regulation banning the sale of such devices.

White House press secretary Sarah Sanders told reporters:

“The President, when it comes to that, is committed to ensuring that those devices are—again, I'm not going to get ahead of the announcement, but I can tell you that the president doesn't support use of those accessories.”
On February 20, Sanders stated that the president would support “steps” to raise the current minimum age for buying military-style weapons, such as the AR-15—the weapon used in the Parkland shooting—from 18 to 21.

“I think that's certainly something that's on the table for us to discuss and that we expect to come up over the next couple of weeks,” Sanders said.

July 31, 2018
U.S. District Judge Robert Lasnik in Seattle issued a temporary restraining blocking the release of blueprints that could be used to produce untraceable and undetectable 3D-printable plastic guns.

Assembled from ABS plastic parts, 3D guns are firearms that can be made with a computer-controlled 3D printer. The judge acted partly in response to a lawsuit filed against the federal government by several states to block the release of blueprints for 3D-printed plastic guns.

Judge Lasnik’s order banned the Austin, Texas-based gun-rights group Defense Distributed from allowing the public to download the blueprints from its website.

“There is a possibility of irreparable harm because of the way these guns can be made,” Lasnik wrote.

Before the restraining order, plans for assembling a variety of guns, including an AR-15-style rifle and a Beretta M9 handgun could be downloaded from the Defense Distributed website.

Shortly after the restraining order was issued, President Donald Trump (@realDonaldTrump) tweeted, “I am looking into 3-D Plastic Guns being sold to the public. Already spoke to NRA, doesn’t seem to make much sense!”

The NRA said in a statement that "anti-gun politicians" and certain members of the press had wrongly claimed that 3D printing technology "will allow for the production and widespread proliferation of undetectable plastic firearms."

August 2019
In the wake of three mass shootings in Gilroy, Calif.; El Paso, Texas; and Dayton, Ohio in the span of two weeks that left a total of almost three dozen people dead, a new push was made in Congress for gun control measures. Among the proposals were stronger background checks and limits on high-capacity magazines. "Red flag" laws also were proposed to allow police or family members to file a court petition to remove firearms from individuals who might pose a danger to themselves or others.

August 9, 2019
President Donald Trump indicated he would support new legislation requiring “common-sense” background checks for gun purchases. “On background checks, we have tremendous support for really common-sense, sensible, important background checks,” Trump told reporters at the White House. Noting that he had spoken to National Rifle Association CEO Wayne LaPierre, the president said the issue “isn't a question of NRA, Republican or Democrat. We will see where the NRA will be, but we need meaningful background checks.”

The House of Representatives had previously passed the Bipartisan Background Checks Act of 2019, which would ban most person-to-person firearm transfers without a background check, including firearm transfers at gun shows and between individuals. The bill passed 240-190, with eight Republicans joining almost all Democrats in voting for the bill. As of September 1, 2019, the Senate had taken no action on the bill.

August 12, 2019
President Trump voiced his support for red flag gun confiscation laws. “We must make sure that those judged to pose a grave risk to public safety do not have access to firearms and that if they do, those firearms can be taken through rapid due process," he said in televised remarks from the White House. “That is why I have called for red flag laws, also known as extreme risk protection orders.”

August 20, 2019
After speaking with NRA Chief Executive Wayne LaPierre, President Trump seemed to back away from supporting expanded background checks for firearm purchases. “We have very strong background checks right now,” he said, speaking from the Oval Office. “And I have to tell you that it is a mental problem. And I've said it a hundred times it's not the gun that pulls the trigger, it's the people.” Trump also stressed his support for the Second Amendment, stating that he would not want to go down the “slippery slope” of infringing on the right to bear arms.

January 20, 2020
Rep. Hank Johnson, a Georgia Democrat who sits on the House Judiciary Committee, on Jan. 30 introduced H.R. 5717, which would, among other items, ban the purchasing and possession of assault weapons. Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., introduced in February the Senate version of the bill, S.3254.

"The Gun Violence Prevention and Community Safety Act will save lives and make our country safer – without infringing on any law-abiding individual’s right to own firearms," Johnson said in a news release issued as the bill was filed.

The legislation introduced a variety of reforms with the intent to "end the epidemic of gun violence and build safer communities by strengthening Federal firearms laws and supporting gun violence research, intervention, and prevention initiatives."

The bill addresses background checks, taxes on firearms and goods related to firearms, gun storage, accessibility of guns on school campuses, and more.


https://www.thoughtco.com/us-gun-contro ... ne-3963620
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Re: School Shootings

Postby I-5 » Tue May 24, 2022 6:03 pm

As I said, it’s too late to do anything that will have much effect now. The horse has left the barn because there are already more guns than there are people in the US. There are plenty of mentally ill and criminals in other countries but no one is expecting to have mass killings except in the US. Security measurses can only do so much, but a lot of these killings go way beyond schools, into churches, concerts, grocery stores, random places. You know the US will have another one again soon.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue May 24, 2022 6:25 pm

I-5 wrote:As I said, it’s too late to do anything that will have much effect now. The horse has left the barn because there are already more guns than there are people in the US. There are plenty of mentally ill and criminals in other countries but no one is expecting to have mass killings except in the US. Security measurses can only do so much, but a lot of these killings go way beyond schools, into churches, concerts, grocery stores, random places. You know the US will have another one again soon.


But why? I even thought Norway had tight gun controls when Brevik did his mass killings. But I found out Norway has pretty liberal gun laws and a lot of hunters and gun owners. I know they are only 6 million people.

But why is America producing so many lunatics? What about us does this? A lot of other nations have huge gun ownership and don't have as many of these random killings. Is it some cultural element for us?

Even the United Kingdom before it banned gun ownership had a very low homicide rate. The United States as a low homicide rate in most areas, but certain areas make up for the lack of activity in most areas of the nation concentrated in certain usually urban areas. Why are we producing these loons with such regularity?

You could even throw in the cult members. The child killers other than this guy. The serial killers. The gang and drug warfare. We must have some cultural element that lends itself to people losing their minds. We're not a war torn nation, but man, we seem to produce a lot of weird and crazy people that do some very violent and vile behavior.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby I-5 » Tue May 24, 2022 6:41 pm

I don’t have the answer, except that our solution to any gun issue is usually to add more guns to the mix (ex: arm teachers). We just LOVE guns. I really don’t think it’s a mental illness issue as stated before. They’re not crazy, they’re evil and cold, and our culture is perfect for that aggression to come out.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Stream Hawk » Tue May 24, 2022 9:59 pm

Guns are the problem!

Only in America can an 18(!) year old kid shoot his grandma & then take his legally purchased assault rifle to shoot up an elementary school. I’m freaking heartbroken that this wasn’t even surprising.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Wed May 25, 2022 4:08 am

Stream Hawk wrote:Guns are the problem!

Only in America can an 18(!) year old kid shoot his grandma & then take his legally purchased assault rifle to shoot up an elementary school. I’m freaking heartbroken that this wasn’t even surprising.


It goes way beyond the availability of guns. I agree, that these shootings wouldn't happen if guns weren't as easy to get as they are now. But guns were widely available when I was going to school in the 60's, but we never had any mass shootings. The first one I can remember was at the University of Texas in Austin. There were political assassinations and murders, but not indiscriminate mass shootings. Something else is at work.

And you're right. It's not a surprise anymore. It's frustrating. We're helpless. We can mitigate it, we can prevent some shootings, but we're never going to eliminate them.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed May 25, 2022 4:49 am

I'm sick to death of "oh there's nothing we can do" "can't put the genie back in the bottle" "we're helpless" ... BULLSH!T!!

I'm not talking about prying guns from anyone's cold dead fingers either. Cars are legal, semi trucks are legal, airplanes are legal and we don't have any problem reducing death due to those. Get the damn NRA (I'm embarrassed to have ever been a member) out of politician's pockets and REGULATE and TAX GUNS the way we do every other damn thing! Require training, registration, competency certification and INSURANCE on guns. I guarantee we'll see a drastic reduction in these shootings with just those few things that we already do for every other damn thing in our lives.

Give up the making this kind of gun or that kind of gun illegal fight - tax, insure and regulate.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby curmudgeon » Wed May 25, 2022 8:51 am

It’s a people problem. Thou shall not kill.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby NorthHawk » Wed May 25, 2022 9:03 am

Here's an interesting article about the topic:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/26/world/us ... index.html
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Stream Hawk » Wed May 25, 2022 9:12 am

RiverDog wrote:
It goes way beyond the availability of guns. I agree, that these shootings wouldn't happen if guns weren't as easy to get as they are now. But guns were widely available when I was going to school in the 60's, but we never had any mass shootings. The first one I can remember was at the University of Texas in Austin. There were political assassinations and murders, but not indiscriminate mass shootings. Something else is at work.

And you're right. It's not a surprise anymore. It's frustrating. We're helpless. We can mitigate it, we can prevent some shootings, but we're never going to eliminate them.


Overall, I agree that it's a bigger issue than just removing guns. Quick question - were there AR-15s in the 1960's? America has blown up since those years. Something else is work alright. I agree with Bob that politicians getting out of bed with the NRA is a must. When will that happen in this divided nation?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby I-5 » Wed May 25, 2022 10:03 am

curmudgeon wrote:It’s a people problem. Thou shall not kill.


If it's a people problem, then the fact this phenomenon only happens regularly in one country on earth suggests the worst people are there. Do you buy that? I do not.

I will say however that there is something in our society and system that somehow allows this horrible event to keep repeating itself. If you take the same bad person with bad intentions and put them in another country, can they easily pull off the same crime?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby NorthHawk » Wed May 25, 2022 10:42 am

Having a cursory look at the countries that are democratic, higher gun possession and happiness rates, it
appears that there might be a correlation between satisfaction with their Government and gun violence.
Although the gun possession rates are much lower in those places, the American rates of violence is far higher.
It’s not the sole reason, and might turn out to be only a minor reason, but it does appear on the surface to
be a contributing factor.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby I-5 » Wed May 25, 2022 11:18 am

NorthHawk wrote:Having a cursory look at the countries that are democratic, higher gun possession and happiness rates, it
appears that there might be a correlation between satisfaction with their Government and gun violence.
Although the gun possession rates are much lower in those places, the American rates of violence is far higher.
It’s not the sole reason, and might turn out to be only a minor reason, but it does appear on the surface to
be a contributing factor.


That is a really interesting observation about gun possession vs happiness rates. I think that helps answer my comment about something about our society allows these horrible events to keep repeating itself. Would the same angry person be just as angry if you put him in another location?

I remember a few years ago I was at a salsa club here in Vancouver BC and was talking to an African guy from Seattle, who said he loves coming to Canada because the people are so much nicer and relaxed. I've lived here going on 7 years now, and the difference in angst between Vancouver and what I feel when I'm in Seattle is palpable. Strangers speak much more kindly to each other here - I could give multiple examples of this. It always feel more stressful whenever I cross the border back into the US.

If you take that same kid who committed all those murders and put him in Canada, one, would he be just as angry? And two, if he did have intention to commit mass murder with a rifle and handgun, how hard would it be for him to get his hands on them, and could he afford it?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby MackStrongIsMyHero » Wed May 25, 2022 2:29 pm

I think Victoria BC versus Seattle is a very limited comparison. I wouldn’t be able to make the call on the USA versus antes here else because I haven’t seen it all. While I feel like the southeast where I have lived most of my life is very friendly, others may have experienced otherwise. Their maybe something to it, but I think that’s a hard one to call.

As for beings happier elsewhere in general, I do wonder about that. The rest of the world does see violent events like this, but in recent history, the USA leads with lone gunmen attacking multiple targets. Many times it’s mentally unstable individuals getting firearms through legal family members. Many times they turn on their legal guardians before turning on their main targets. Would a mentally unstable person be happier in Canada or Western Europe? I don’t know; one of the failings I see is these mentally disturbed individuals aren’t getting the help or not staying with the help they need. Then the question becomes how do you stay up on top of that? The VA Tech shooter was writing some disturbing papers and saying strange things to people on the internet. Faculty had made their concerns known to his parents and university officials but this information wasn’t openly shared because of privacy policies. Do we institutionalize these individuals as soon as we see the signs?

As to access, I’m for making it more difficult and more expensive to own firearms. I don’t know if they do this now, but background checks shouldn’t be limited to just the buyer. The buyer’s family members must also be checked. At least immediately family members and any permanent resident of the house hold. Parents need to be held criminally liable if their firearms end up in the hands of their child who commits a crime with it. Don’t own it if you can’t keep it secure.

Always going to be a major issue though. And will
Be an ugly fight no matter what.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed May 25, 2022 4:17 pm

I-5 wrote:If it's a people problem, then the fact this phenomenon only happens regularly in one country on earth suggests the worst people are there. Do you buy that? I do not.

I will say however that there is something in our society and system that somehow allows this horrible event to keep repeating itself. If you take the same bad person with bad intentions and put them in another country, can they easily pull off the same crime?


We really produce some terrible people in America. I would not be surprised if mental illness or a lot of mental disorders are produced in our cultural environment.

One of the most surprising bits of research I ran into when looking into this is nations like Iraq and Iran have lower homicide rates than us and don't have these types of mass killings too often unless its religious or political strife. Other nations produce some of this, but seemingly not on this level. Even places like China and Russia don't produce this type of activity. It's very strange considering those nations have more access to personal arms than us, but don't tend to buy or use them for these types of killings.

We could control some of this with a gun ban in the same way banning cars would reduce car deaths. This would reduce the killings, but not really reduce the underlying mental causes that lead to this.

If I were positing a theory, I think it has something to do with the very open culture we have. We don't really have a formal, controlling culture like almost every other nation in the world. Even places like the United Kingdom and Germany have certain formal and restrictive cultural elements we lack. We're kind of a free for all culture with no expectations of manners, address, or much of anything since the 60s really when the counterculture movement threw everything out.

We're gonna have to do something at some point.

For me I want the 2nd Amendment properly addressed:

1. It's purpose as a right to violent revolution and ensuring military power is held by the people must be confirmed. There is no evidence that the 2nd Amendment was created as anything other than a right of violent revolution to be used both against aggressors foreign and domestic. It was created specifically as a check on government military and police power by people who understood very clearly that control of police and military power was a precursor to tyranny. I need to see politicians acknowledge the 2nd Amendment is a check on government power as important as free speech, assembly, right to trial, or any of the Amendments checking government power.

2. Once that is done, then I am more open to legislation that makes it clear what a person can own much like Switzerland. I'm not a big "guns as a hobby" guy or the like. To me gun ownership and The 2nd Amendment have a very specific purpose. People who exercise it have both a right and a responsibility same as they do with any other right.

3. I would be ok with some limits on gun ownership, especially background checks which I have never opposed and honestly wonder why there are so many loopholes to background checks. I'm not for some kind of untouchable gun right as long as the basis for the 2nd Amendment is clear and communicated to the American people.

There is a saying I learned in political science that goes "All politics is force." When I first heard it, I wondered at it. But the more I learned, the more I understood. We pay taxes, follow laws, and people respect our borders and resource claims solely because we have the means to violently enforce our laws, taxes, borders, resource claims, and the like. A people as a group have extremely limited control over their government or political power if they do not have the means to violently revolt and enforce their will same as the government has no real power if they cannot violently enforce their laws, taxes, resource claims, borders, etcetera.

This idea is inherent in The 2nd Amendment ensuring the power of violent enforcement of the people's will is a right guaranteed in the Constitution to ensure the American people are not disarmed and unprepared to deal with a tyrant foreign or domestic.

That being said it is not some kind of right that we cannot provide intelligently as many towns and states did back in the old days when Town Marshalls often enforced no guns in city limits or at bars or other areas where violence should be controlled. So it is not historical precedent that we are provided some unalterable gun rights. We can ensure the 2nd Amendment right is respected, while at the same time having intelligent implementation of the 2nd Amendment. Thus I would support some laws governing the 2nd Amendment that both acknowledge its purpose while also limiting access to threats like some lone wolf scumbag losing his mind and going on a killing spree because he hates the world. So I guess we'll see what happens this time around.

Given I'm in Washington State, we already have pretty restrictive gun laws. It hasn't seemed to help a great deal at this point as we're still having homicide problems. Mainly because criminals and lunatics always seem to find a way to get guns unless you completely ban them from society, which I would never support. Hopefully they can figure some method other than a total ban to gain some control over these scumbag lunatics wanting to inflict pain on the world before they go out.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby I-5 » Wed May 25, 2022 4:36 pm

As much as I don't like guns, I've never been for a total ban, and I don't know anyone who seriously is for a total ban. That is not the point or the goal, as far I'm concerned.

As restrictive as any laws in the US are, how does it compare to British Columbia, where to obtain a license to own a gun, an individual has to apply for it with the RCMP (police), along with going through a training course, and finally, very strict rules about storing and transporting it. For those that say criminals don't follow laws, sure, but at least make it more costly and difficult. These aren't career criminals committing mass murders; a huge proportion of them are kids themselves.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed May 25, 2022 6:50 pm

I-5 wrote:As much as I don't like guns, I've never been for a total ban, and I don't know anyone who seriously is for a total ban. That is not the point or the goal, as far I'm concerned.

As restrictive as any laws in the US are, how does it compare to British Columbia, where to obtain a license to own a gun, an individual has to apply for it with the RCMP (police), along with going through a training course, and finally, very strict rules about storing and transporting it. For those that say criminals don't follow laws, sure, but at least make it more costly and difficult. These aren't career criminals committing mass murders; a huge proportion of them are kids themselves.


As far as I know in Washington State at the moment you have to apply for a conceal weapons permit with the police.

Buying a gun you go to the store and they run a background check. Usually done pretty quick when I did 30 years ago. Then take the guns home.

I'm not much of a gun owner myself. I don't feel like I need it and don't shoot as a hobby any longer. So I'm not up to date. I have a buddy who likes guns and he doesn't seem to have much trouble buying in Washington State. I think they enacted some recent laws that might make it harder, but we're a surprisingly gun friendly state for a Blue State. I think it's because we have a lot of hunters in Washington State who are blue due to labor support, but not necessarily blue for social issues like guns.

Generally career criminals killings add up to more than the mass shootings because there are more of them and no one seems to freak out as much if some guy does a drive by that kills a few people. America generally goes into the usual argument after a psychopath lashes out killing multiple targets without any good reason other than they are insane and decided this how they wanted to commit suicide and destroy their life completely. I've always wondered if their is any consistent factor connecting these people like a particular drug, mental disorder, or profile, but it seems to be usually some random male that loses his mind and goes on a killing spree. You're not seeing females doing this at least not to my knowledge. It's always a deranged, psychotic male.

Which is another factor that would be interesting to study. We've always known the male human is the most violent animal on earth, but why? A sheer numbers game? Testosterone? Something in the physical make up the human male brain? Lots of questions that need some looking into. And why exactly is America producing some of the most psychotic males out there? What are we doing wrong raising males?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Stream Hawk » Wed May 25, 2022 6:59 pm

A full ban is probably crazy. I guess. But how did Australia do it successfully? Look at countries in Europe. At the bare MINIMUM increase the age to 25. Go big. Heck, you can’t drink or rent a car but you can own a gun - WTF?!

Next is ban all assault rifles. 100%. End of discussion. I actually think this might happen soon once the filibuster rule is changed in the Senate. Sorry for bringing out my liberal side, but this ain’t working! Do you think Senator Cruz or governor Abbot would continue to say “thoughts and prayers” if it was their own children? I was terrified today dropping off my 3rd grade & 8th grade kids at their schools. This is supposed to be the “best country on earth”; why don’t we start acting like it?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby I-5 » Wed May 25, 2022 8:27 pm

I would never wish this on anyone’s child, but I do agree that if it happened to one of these senators is probably the only way to open their minds to the concept of taking gun ownership as seriously as Australia did after their massacre. Why does the public have any need to own semi automatic rifles that go beyond hunting?

I do think there is anger problem that is unique to the US, to the point that I think about it when I’m in the US driving on roads or with large groups of people. It feels like a powder keg about to go off sometimes.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed May 25, 2022 9:53 pm

Stream Hawk wrote:A full ban is probably crazy. I guess. But how did Australia do it successfully? Look at countries in Europe. At the bare MINIMUM increase the age to 25. Go big. Heck, you can’t drink or rent a car but you can own a gun - WTF?!

Next is ban all assault rifles. 100%. End of discussion. I actually think this might happen soon once the filibuster rule is changed in the Senate. Sorry for bringing out my liberal side, but this ain’t working! Do you think Senator Cruz or governor Abbot would continue to say “thoughts and prayers” if it was their own children? I was terrified today dropping off my 3rd grade & 8th grade kids at their schools. This is supposed to be the “best country on earth”; why don’t we start acting like it?


I would not knee jerk ban assault rifles even if my own children or loved ones were killed. The rights in the Constitution are there for a reason including the 2nd Amendment. An assault rifle is the weapon of the soldier including the citizen soldier and the primary weapon of any revolutionary army worldwide. I would never support banning it.

Australia did it because their people don't have real rights. Neither do New Zealanders. Their rights can be taken away at will with a simple majority. If anyone invades them, they will just be calling us because they are incapable of defending themselves.

I guarantee if the filibuster is removed and Democrats try to ban assault weapons nationwide, you better arm yourself because a Civil War will be starting very soon after the attempt. It isn't just the gun lobby preventing banning assault rifles, it is huge states of people including states like Texas and Florida and many Southern States. And millions of Americans who own assaults rifles responsibly.

Given the current environment, they are more than ready to split the nation, let the liberals have their liberal America and break apart into a separate America. Should be clear if you been watching the last ten years or so America is in a state where a Civil War is waiting to happen with an issue big enough to light the fuse like Democrats trying to ban assault weapons nationwide. I doubt they attempt it because gun bans are not at all popular enough to pass in America unless you want a very big fight.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed May 25, 2022 10:03 pm

I-5 wrote:I would never wish this on anyone’s child, but I do agree that if it happened to one of these senators is probably the only way to open their minds to the concept of taking gun ownership as seriously as Australia did after their massacre. Why does the public have any need to own semi automatic rifles that go beyond hunting?

I do think there is anger problem that is unique to the US, to the point that I think about it when I’m in the US driving on roads or with large groups of people. It feels like a powder keg about to go off sometimes.


It is pretty clear why.

The 2nd Amendment was never meant for hunting. I don't know why liberals keep trying to sell it as "You only need guns for hunting" when the Republican supporting gun lobby is supporting them because the intended use of an assault rifle is for warfare. The 2nd Amendment is a right to violent revolution written by violent revolutionaries who threw off the yoke of the British Crown in a violent revolution where they were armed with the weapons of the soldiers of their time.

I don't get why liberal folk don't understand this. You keep thinking that the gun lobby pushes guns for hunting or hobby and they don't. They read the writings of the Founding Fathers and the Constitution and it is clear in their writings that the 2nd Amendment is a right of violent revolution. It's not even slightly open for discussion for debate. It is literally the entire intent of The 2nd Amendment.

What is the weapon of a citizen soldier in the modern day? A pistol and hunting rifle? Or a pistol and an assault rifle?

Australia, Canada, UK, and the like were not started by violent revolutionaries. Canada never left the crown of Britain. Australia was a penal colony. United Kingdom never had the right given to all the citizens. We are one of the few nations with a right of violent revolution written in the Constitution.

Until liberals acknowledge this, we got nowhere to go in conversation. Nowhere. You're already failing to acknowledge the intent of the 2nd Amendment and the conversation has ended because you think freedom of speech is something that should be protected, but the right to bear arms is some unnecessary addition to the Constitution that The Foundering Fathers didn't really mean.

If you want a real discussion, first acknowledge the intent of The 2nd Amendment. Then we can discuss how to implement it in modern day society.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed May 25, 2022 11:11 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/news/switzerland-stunningly-high-rate-gun-221301534.html

The above article is why I've seriously contemplated moving to Switzerland. They do America better than America at this point. This is what I would like to see implemented for The 2nd Amendment.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Thu May 26, 2022 5:27 am

Stream Hawk wrote:A full ban is probably crazy. I guess. But how did Australia do it successfully? Look at countries in Europe. At the bare MINIMUM increase the age to 25. Go big. Heck, you can’t drink or rent a car but you can own a gun - WTF?!

Next is ban all assault rifles. 100%. End of discussion. I actually think this might happen soon once the filibuster rule is changed in the Senate. Sorry for bringing out my liberal side, but this ain’t working! Do you think Senator Cruz or governor Abbot would continue to say “thoughts and prayers” if it was their own children? I was terrified today dropping off my 3rd grade & 8th grade kids at their schools. This is supposed to be the “best country on earth”; why don’t we start acting like it?


I'm good with a full ban of all military-type weapons outside of those associated with self defense and recreation (hunting, target shooting). It would mitigate the mass shootings and make it more difficult for people to obtain, but we're kidding ourselves if we think it's going to have a significant effect on the overall homicide rate.

The mass shootings are shocking, but the real scale of the problem isn't in mass shootings with an active shooter:

Only five months into 2022, more than 17,000 people, including 650 children, have been shot and killed in the United States.

Nearly 41,000 people are killed by gun violence every year in the United States on average, according to the organization Everytown for Gun Safety, translating to 111 victims every day.


https://news.yahoo.com/staggering-toll- ... 37589.html

Banning assault weapons or passing other legislation might make us feel better, but when you look at the big picture, it doesn't make us or our children any safer.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby RiverDog » Thu May 26, 2022 5:33 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/switzerland-stunningly-high-rate-gun-221301534.html

The above article is why I've seriously contemplated moving to Switzerland. They do America better than America at this point. This is what I would like to see implemented for The 2nd Amendment.


From the linked article:

Unlike the US, Switzerland has mandatory military service for men.

All men between the ages of 18 and 34 deemed "fit for service" are given a pistol or a rifle and trained.


How do you think that's going to work in a country of some 330 million? How has Russia's conscripted soldiers working out for them in their war against Ukraine?
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Re: School Shootings

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu May 26, 2022 7:17 am

Yeah they arm everyone but they also train everyone, extensively. They are also a lot smaller population without a massive military, arming their citizens is their deterrent to invasion by a hostile country.
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Stream Hawk » Thu May 26, 2022 10:26 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:I would not knee jerk ban assault rifles even if my own children or loved ones were killed. The rights in the Constitution are there for a reason including the 2nd Amendment. An assault rifle is the weapon of the soldier including the citizen soldier and the primary weapon of any revolutionary army worldwide. I would never support banning it.

Australia did it because their people don't have real rights. Neither do New Zealanders. Their rights can be taken away at will with a simple majority. If anyone invades them, they will just be calling us because they are incapable of defending themselves.

I guarantee if the filibuster is removed and Democrats try to ban assault weapons nationwide, you better arm yourself because a Civil War will be starting very soon after the attempt. It isn't just the gun lobby preventing banning assault rifles, it is huge states of people including states like Texas and Florida and many Southern States. And millions of Americans who own assaults rifles responsibly.

Given the current environment, they are more than ready to split the nation, let the liberals have their liberal America and break apart into a separate America. Should be clear if you been watching the last ten years or so America is in a state where a Civil War is waiting to happen with an issue big enough to light the fuse like Democrats trying to ban assault weapons nationwide. I doubt they attempt it because gun bans are not at all popular enough to pass in America unless you want a very big fight.

No offense but if anybody invades the United States of America we are all screwed. Your freaking assault rifle won’t do anything. Get a clue
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Re: School Shootings

Postby Stream Hawk » Thu May 26, 2022 10:29 am

Honestly, my twin brother is a master gunnery sergeant in the Marine Corps. I feel confident that he will protect me. Personally, I don’t lose any sleep over attacks though. If you really care about keeping your assault rifle - go join the Marine Corps!
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