Old but Slow wrote:There is part of me that just wants Jamal Adams to disappear, but at the same time it would be great if he was a big contributor to the defense this season. The time has passed for pissing and moaning about what we paid for him, and we have to look to what is best for the team. If he balls out and makes our defense better, then we can feel some measure of justification, but if he continues to be injured and ineffective, then we can just file him away with the Aaron Currys of the past.
Personally, I would like to see us get some value from him.
RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure if Adams was/is the best player for us or not. I actually liked Ryan Neal last year and felt he was a better safety for what we wanted to do than Adams was. He's a liability in pass coverage, took bad angles tracking down running backs, a one trick pony. We have to create a position for him in order for him to excel, and that may not result the best overall defense for the team.
At this point, he's not worth much for a trade as not only has he such a bad injury history and lackluster performance,...
RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure if Adams was/is the best player for us or not. I actually liked Ryan Neal last year and felt he was a better safety for what we wanted to do than Adams was. He's a liability in pass coverage, took bad angles tracking down running backs, a one trick pony. We have to create a position for him in order for him to excel, and that may not result the best overall defense for the team.
At this point, he's not worth much for a trade as not only has he such a bad injury history and lackluster performance,...
tarlhawk wrote:Are you basing your comments on his last full year 12 out of 17 games played? (2021) Are you referencing a few games/plays ?? In 2021 Quandre Diggs who plays his heart out allowed 65.9 % completion rate while making 94 tackles (in 17 starts) and missing 11 (10.5% miss tackle rate). Ryan Neal with same enthusiasm allowed 72.4% completion rate while making 49 tackles (limited to 5 starts and played in 16 games) while missing 4 (7.5% miss tackle rate). Jamal Adams started 12 out of 12 games and allowed 58.8% completion rate while making 87 tackles while missing 7 (7.4% miss tackle rate) so how can it be told as "bad" Adams...yet good Diggs/Neal? when singling out pass coverage and ability to tackle?? *keep away from the curtain*
RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure where you're getting your stats on completion percentage (PFF maybe), but they sure don't correspond to what I've seen with my own eyes. I'm not sure how relevant completion percentages against a DB are. Are they as relevant in a zone as they are in man?
And it's not just tackles I'm talking about. I've seen occasions, Derrick Henry's run comes to mind, where Adams took a poor angle. I didn't get the same impression with Neal.
tarlhawk wrote:The importance is your impression...sorry but I don't see Jake Heaps as a serious analyst (I watched him and listened to him on 710AM but as a fan who then looks further into what is being said) The stats I use are from Pro Football Reference and they get a stat feed from statheads I think. The completion % is available when you sort by using advanced stats which became available in 2018 ( a year after Kam Chancellors forced retirement) but in 2018 with McDougald at SS he allowed 76.7% completion rate with 78 tackles with 7 missed for 8.2% miss tackle rate. When a healthy Adams is on the field you see him explode with a toughness that fires up his team mates...Ryan Neal plays with "juice" but Adams can seriously intimidate an opponent.
In 2020 J.Adams allowed 35 catches out of 45 thrown his way (77.8%) allowing a QB rating of 104.7...improving in 2021 being played further off the line of scrimmage he allowed 30 out pf 51 (58.8 %) and a QB rating of 93.8 with 2 interceptions and 5 PD (passes defensed) so definite improvement...Kam had 1/2/2/0 interceptions and 6/4/8/2 PD from 2014/15/16/17...Kam and Jamal are "hammers"...tone setters who play a big role in rush defense when healthy. Injuries always rob "what if " speculations...now we'll get to see another "hammer" in our secondary (Spoon)who happens to play corner not safety ...
tarlhawk wrote:Amazing how many fans will jump on a guy who irritates them because "only his coach and GM" highly value him. Penny bashing almost compares to the consistent Adams bashing that occurs often...Penny only "cost" us one 1rst rd pick which is why he falls short of the criticism heaped on Adams. But Jamal Adams is such an "easy mark" for a disgruntled fan who sees no "value"...thank goodness ET wasn't plagued by injuries. Jamal Adams has been plagued with serious injuries that would make a lesser man quit and laugh his way to the bank...but you never hear from his team mates anything but admiration for his tenacity and strong vocal leadership.
Character is a trait seldom admired in these days of pampered athletes yet that is the type of team our upper management highly values often referring to it as "grit". Empathy for sports athletes is blighted by a fans knowledge of what he earns...our country has even feasted lately on "hating the rich" as if to punish those who thrived in a country blessed with opportunity. I'm beginning to digress...I know as an appreciative fan who only offers opinion not insight that Jamal Adams will be a huge difference maker if his athleticism hasn't been stolen by serious injury.
Go Hawks
NorthHawk wrote:It's amazing the lengths fans will go to defend a player that isn't a good fit or not very good/over hyped.
I'm sorry, but Adams has been a huge disappointment in his abilities. We expected a Pro Bowl type player at the least, but he can't cover well, can't follow the ball in the air well, is sometimes too aggressive causing him to take bad angles for tackles and still thinks he's the 'best in the nation'. That's just from a player performance perspective. What we gave up for him just adds to the disappointment but doesn't mean that the other problems with his game don't exist or are exaggerated.
tarlhawk wrote:RD you respond as if I singled you out but my reference was to fans at large on various sites I frequent. If I "target" an individual's opinion for response I will do it in the form of using a quoted response...I wasn't responding to any quote of yours. As for NH I value your opinions but view them as observations for the most part when taken in context. Good thing Diggs has many other picks to absorb the "easy" pick that slipped thru his failed "close to body" grab that he found embarassing. I already pointed out that Kam wasn't big on picks...he earned respect with sensational bone jarring tackles that fire up a sideline full of team mates...Jamal has had his own flashes (the modest beginnings of a "punisher" highlight reel). Too bad his injury prevented him from many designed schemes to "maximize" his talent in 2022...Ryan Neal reaped the benefits of staying healthy and aggressive at a fraction of the cost. Feel free to label me as if that alone makes my opinion invalid. As a fan I appreciate the players our management pursues. Only the Defensive coaches truly know any failed ability for a given played scheme. You have to understand the coverage assignments for the particular scheme called...not just the fan's eyeball to truly place blame. When I have an opinion I feel fully capable of defending it without getting personal. As for on the field performance in being a tone setter there are other ways than ball skills to make a difference that impacts a games outcome. Go Hawks
RiverDog wrote:The criticism is out there, and it's not limited to one or two analysts. I'm surprised that you're denying it.
The other thing that supports this observation is that Adams has been part of a secondary that contributed to two of the worst pass defenses we've ever fielded as we ranked 31st in pass defense in both 2020 and 2021. Last year, with Adams out for nearly the entire season after being injured in our first game, our pass defense suddenly jumped to a very respectable 13th. Was it just a random coincidence? Maybe. There were obviously several factors that contributed to this huge improvement. But the undeniable fact is that we were much better in pass defense with Adams out and Neal playing in his spot.
RiverDog wrote:The criticism is out there, and it's not limited to one or two analysts. I'm surprised that you're denying it.
The other thing that supports this observation is that Adams has been part of a secondary that contributed to two of the worst pass defenses we've ever fielded as we ranked 31st in pass defense in both 2020 and 2021. Last year, with Adams out for nearly the entire season after being injured in our first game, our pass defense suddenly jumped to a very respectable 13th. Was it just a random coincidence? Maybe. There were obviously several factors that contributed to this huge improvement. But the undeniable fact is that we were much better in pass defense with Adams out and Neal playing in his spot.
tarlhawk wrote:This is an actual response to your post...I'm not denying any analyst and their point of view but I take it in the context that they are paid for their analytical view which in the end is a salary weighted opinion. If they were real experts why would they waste their time in a profession that pays less for their expertise and more for their ability to influence/persuade? As stated earlier it would take "insider" knowledge from our defensive coaches to know how well Jamal Adams performs his coverage assignments and "fits" the scheme coverage called on any given play. Perhaps an in depth film study by a respected "analyst with playing/coaching credentials could offer keener insight. I am not labeling you as a "basher" you take time to elucidate your opinions and seem careful in offering an informed opinion rather than a "knee-jerk" response.
Pass Defense (my opinion) seems heavily weighted by cornerbacks and scheme fit...more than safety/linebacker support. Safeties play a bigger role in explosive plays allowed whether in pass coverage or busted run plays that leak out into empty space. Your pass defense quotes reflect the stat perspective of total yards allowed by our secondary (corners and safeties with LB underneath coverage) but no context of other available stats. If your defense is suffering from excessive snaps on the field on a regular basis then it's a "duh" result. Time of possession heavily influences total defensive yardage allowed and often shares equal blame with an offenses inability to convert third downs and a defensive inability to stop 1rst downs. 3 and outs good for defense and BAD for offense. If our defense is on the field twice as much as our opponents...then other factors kick in as stamina wanes into the late qtrs and steals away psychological momentum from both sides of the ball.
Looking further (stat wise) we see a better picture...
2020 pass defense
Yds/att allowed 6.8 (ranked 17th)
Completion % allowed 66.8 (21rst)
Total yds 4560 (31rst)
TDs allowed 23 (10th)
Interceptions 14 (21rst)
1rst downs allowed 253 (32-last)
Points allowed (team stat only) 371 (15th)
2021 pass defense
Yds/att allowed 6.9 (25th)
Completion % allowed 67.3 (27th)
Total yds 4513 (31rst)
TDs allowed 24 (11th)
Interceptions 11 (25th)
1rst downs allowed 240 (32nd-last)
Points allowed (team stat only) 366 (11th)
2022 pass defense
Yds/att allowed 6.6 (18th)
Completion % allowed 62.7 (10th)
Total yds 3595 (14th)
TDs allowed 23 (15th)
Interceptions 14 (14th)
1rst downs allowed 188 (15th)
Points allowed (team stat only) 401 (25th)
Pass defense improved (more a reflection of Woolen/Jackson not an abscence of Jamal *my opinion*) yet defense undermined our offense in a hemorrhage of points allowed last year. Points given up could reflect a loss of Adams...but our team has identified our D-line as needing to be more dynamic while tweaking our schemes...steps have been taken. Go Hawks
RiverDog wrote:I've already acknowledged that there are a lot of factors that enter into total passing yards allowed, and we can argue until the horses come home as to the most likely cause for the improvement.
RiverDog wrote:I've already acknowledged that there are a lot of factors that enter into total passing yards allowed, and we can argue until the horses come home as to the most likely cause for the improvement.
tarlhawk wrote:Agreed on no need to further argue on reason for improvement in pass defense...instead another angle to consider...new coaching influence!
Karl Scott has been seen as a respected young coach upon his arrival last year and his coaching position has now been elevated to Defensive Passing Game Coordinator / Defensive Backs (Experience: 2 years) Karl is joined this year by the arrival of Roy Anderson who joined the Seahawks staff as secondary coach on March 15, 2023, following three seasons (2020-22) as the Minnesota Vikings assistant defensive backs/safeties coach....and perhaps DeShawn Shead who enters his first season as assistant defensive backs after joining Seattle as defensive assistant/defensive backs on February 24, 2021, and an eight-year career in the NFL (Seattle Seahawks, 2012-17; Detroit Lions, 2018; New Orleans Saints, 2019). Shead was a part of Seattle's Super Bowl XLVIII-winning team during the 2013 season.
Old but Slow wrote:The problem with Adams, as I see it, is not how good or bad he is. The problem is the price. No safety is worth what we gave up to get him...none.
That said, any value we can get from the guy will be greatly appreciated. It is not the player's decision to pay that kind of price, that is a front office choice, and Adams is in a situation where nothing he can do will fully justify what was paid. If he plays well, great; if he is traded (impossible); or even if he is just cut to recover some cap space, great; but if he plays poorly or is perpetually injured, sad.
Adams is in a tough situation. He likely did not want to be injured, and anything he accomplishes on the field will not be enough to get the sour taste out of the mouths of fans. Maybe if he plays at an all pro level he can gain some respect. I would not count on it.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Jamal Adams is a bust so far, wasted resources. I'm not going to hold my breath he comes as a big contributor. His body looks done as far as playing at a high level with any consistency.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Jamal Adams is a bust so far, wasted resources. I'm not going to hold my breath he comes as a big contributor. His body looks done as far as playing at a high level with any consistency.
Hawktawk wrote:Jamaal Adams set a record for sacks his first year . In his second he was improving with 2 picks in 21 prior to his shoulder injury . In his only half vs Denver he was an explosive disrupter shot out of a cannon on Wilson on the play he was hurt on . Kinda like Penny you just never know . I think if both those guys had been healthy last 3 years it would be a different conversation . I don’t think anyone would be talking about first round picks . I don’t see him coming back with the same explosion . Let’s see.
I’m optimistic about the year . We will be better on offense for sure . I think and hope we are on defense . 11-6 west champs
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:His 9.5 sack season didn’t mean a whole lot. It wasn’t sustainable and that’s not what you want a safety to do on the reg. He needs to be healthy and contribute. Needs to win more than he loses in pass defense for the money he’s paid. He’ll have to have a hell of season this year to make it worth it.
Hawktawk wrote:Jamaal Adams set a record for sacks his first year . In his second he was improving with 2 picks in 21 prior to his shoulder injury . In his only half vs Denver he was an explosive disrupter shot out of a cannon on Wilson on the play he was hurt on . Kinda like Penny you just never know . I think if both those guys had been healthy last 3 years it would be a different conversation . I don’t think anyone would be talking about first round picks . I don’t see him coming back with the same explosion . Let’s see.
I’m optimistic about the year . We will be better on offense for sure . I think and hope we are on defense . 11-6 west champs
govandals wrote:While I'm always excited for Seahawk football, I have little optimism for 2023. I fear a big regression by Geno and the same old the defense. I listened to DC Hurtt on the radio the other day, and while he gets me fired up, I'm a see it to believe it person. The roster is better than last year but the schedule seems much tougher. The Nov/Dec run of Niners/Cowboys/Niners/Eagles is brutal and may define the season. This feels like an 8 or 9 win team to me.
Regarding Jamaal Adams, I don't see how anyone can watch his play and actually think he is any good. It's past time to cut bait with this guy.
govandals wrote:While I'm always excited for Seahawk football, I have little optimism for 2023. I fear a big regression by Geno and the same old the defense. I listened to DC Hurtt on the radio the other day, and while he gets me fired up, I'm a see it to believe it person. The roster is better than last year but the schedule seems much tougher. The Nov/Dec run of Niners/Cowboys/Niners/Eagles is brutal and may define the season. This feels like an 8 or 9 win team to me.
Regarding Jamaal Adams, I don't see how anyone can watch his play and actually think he is any good. It's past time to cut bait with this guy.
Hawktawk wrote:Adams was a guy offenses had to account for every play.
NorthHawk wrote:The doubts about Geno is the 2nd half of the year was what we expected from the start. His performance tailed off quite a bit and he was the beneficiary of more than the average number of dropped INTs.
So which Geno will we get - the first half, or the second half season? That's what's causing the doubt.
Long term, I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking the first half season was the best we will ever see from Geno and I doubt it's enough to win a SB. I think the FO thinks the same way because they didn't lock him up and pay him like a top QB and gave him a contract that has some easy outs should we have drafted one of the top QBs in the last draft.
RiverDog wrote:That's simply not true. Very few if any defensive player has to be accounted for on every play. For example, they don't have to account for a safety if they have a quarterback sneak called, now do they?
The only time offenses had to 'account' for Adams is when he was at the LOS threatening to blitz and they had a passing play or running play to his side called, and once that started happening with regularity, Adams sack numbers took a nosedive, going from 9.5 in one year to zero the next.
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