OT: Harrison Butker's Speech

[River_Dog]

I have no problem with Butker giving the speech. I disagree with nearly all of his views, but the point of the 1st Amendment is that I should listen and be grateful to live in a society where Butker can challenge my beliefs. I supported Kaepernick's right to kneel as a manner of expression and I thought the cancel culture that came after him was un-American, and I support Butker's right to express his beliefs and think any attempt to cancel him to be equally un-American. I just hope that everyone who supported either of those players supports both.

And I'll be clear about what I mean about "un-American": I think that they both had the right to express themselves, and people have the right to cancel them for those views as they see fit. To me, what's American about free speech isn't just the idea that you can't be prosecuted for it (within boundaries), even though that's what the 1A actually expresses. The underlying American value that the 1A represents is the idea that a society works when we take ideas seriously and engage with the ideas on the merits. So, yeah, people who cancelled Kaepernick because of his views were within their rights, just as with Butker. But I'd rather live in a society where we all look at those ideas and even when we disagree with one of them, we don't try to destroy their livelihood by saying that person is the problem. We talk about the ideas. We discuss what kind of society we want to live in, what kind of police force we want, what kind of Church we want, and we get on with our lives without trying to ruin the lives of the Kaepernicks and Butkers of the world in the process.

There's a huge difference between Butker's exercising his right to free speech and Kaepernick's kneeling. Butker was at a private college representing himself. He wasn't an employee of the church, the university, or paid by anyone to give that speech. Colin Kaepernick was "on the clock", engaged in employment, in uniform and representing his team and the NFL. IMO a team and/or league has every right to limit his free speech so long as he is being paid and representing them. Jerry Jones did that very thing, told his team that he wouldn't tolerate any disrespecting of the flag.

There wasn't very many things in Butker's speech that I agreed with, either. As a matter of fact, I emphasized to my daughter the importance of getting an education and a viable career, to be independent. In this day and age of separations and divorces, it's critical for both spouses to be self-sufficient.

[Aseahawkfan]

There's a huge difference between Butker's exercising his right to free speech and Kaepernick's kneeling. Butker was at a private college representing himself. He wasn't an employee of the church, the university, or paid by anyone to give that speech. Colin Kaepernick was "on the clock", engaged in employment, in uniform and representing his team and the NFL. IMO a team and/or league has every right to limit his free speech so long as he is being paid and representing them. Jerry Jones did that very thing, told his team that he wouldn't tolerate any disrespecting of the flag.

There wasn't very many things in Butker's speech that I agreed with, either. As a matter of fact, I emphasized to my daughter the importance of getting an education and a viable career, to be independent. In this day and age of separations and divorces, it's critical for both spouses to be self-sufficient.

Sports is different than other jobs with a long tradition of athletes speaking out on social issues. It's a public venue in front of a lot of people. A good place to push a viewpoint. I don't have a problem with it at sports so long as it doesn't disrupt the game. As far as offending, that's the point of a protest: to make people see it and think and talk about the issue.

I'm ok with athletes making big money using sporting events protesting.

I dislike more guys like Lebron James being huge hypocrites for money. Guy speaks out out like he cares about freedom or equality, then makes sure to kowtow to China and their treatment of people, total lack of free speech, and very xenophobic and closed society to ensure his jersey and the NBA can make money there. Just a hypocritical punk looking to talk out both sides of his mouth. Same as entrepreneurs like Elon Musk. No respect for their free speech or moral credentials whatsoever.

Colin K signed some Nike contract to make money off his protesting. Not even sure what he did to help with much. Just made a name for himself as some kind of protester, then signed contracts with brand companies to make money off his short-lived fame.

[Oly]

There's a huge difference between Butker's exercising his right to free speech and Kaepernick's kneeling. Butker was at a private college representing himself. He wasn't an employee of the church, the university, or paid by anyone to give that speech. Colin Kaepernick was "on the clock", engaged in employment, in uniform and representing his team and the NFL.

That's a distinction without a difference to me. I noted that Kaepernick's employers had every right to take action—"people have the right to cancel them for those views as they see fit"—but I don't see the American value of free speech as I articulated it being impacted in any way by whether or not Kaepernick was on the clock or in uniform. That's why I agree with your next part:

IMO a team and/or league has every right to limit his free speech so long as he is being paid and representing them. Jerry Jones did that very thing, told his team that he wouldn't tolerate any disrespecting of the flag.

I absolutely agree that his employers or the fans had every right to react to him as they saw fit under the law. I just don't like that they did and see it as running counter to the spirit of the 1A. IMO to act like once a person puts on a uniform for our entertainment they forfeit their place in the public forum is to misunderstand the spirit underlying the 1A. I think the way the Chiefs are handling it now is perfect. If you don't agree with Butker, say that you don't agree but still support his right to speak his mind and that you support him as a teammate. I think that underlying principle of accept-the-person-even-if-you-don't-support-the-opinions doesn't change whether or not to express yourself on the clock.

[River_Dog]

I think the way the Chiefs are handling it now is perfect. If you don't agree with Butker, say that you don't agree but still support his right to speak his mind and that you support him as a teammate. I think that underlying principle of accept-the-person-even-if-you-don't-support-the-opinions doesn't change whether or not to express yourself on the clock.

I do, too, particularly Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes. Looks like we are closer to agreement than I thought.

[Stream Hawk]

Agree with both of you on these.
1. Butker, while I generally disagree with everything he said except yay momming, had 100% the right to state them per the 1st.
2. Kaep was within his 1st, but employer could handle as they deem fit.
3. Butker gonna hear some s*** for awhile. Kicker’s can be fragile; it’ll be interesting to see how he responds.

[4XPIPS]

Well Chris Kluwe supported gay rights, and was let go from his team. So I guess it depends what sort of support you have going forward, and I don't think many are going to support Butker when he comes out onto the field.

[River_Dog]

Well Chris Kluwe supported gay rights, and was let go from his team. So I guess it depends what sort of support you have going forward, and I don't think many are going to support Butker when he comes out onto the field.

It's a little difficult to put two and two together on that one. We can't say definitively why Kluwe was let go just like we can't say why Kaepernick never got another NFL job, we can only speculate. That goes on all the time in the real world. I know that I was discriminated against due to my age and gender at my former job, but I can't prove it. Such is life.

I don't think the boos and jeers are going to affect Butker. He's been at this gig for quite some time and is used to screening out all that noise and concentrate on his job.

[Aseahawkfan]

Well Chris Kluwe supported gay rights, and was let go from his team. So I guess it depends what sort of support you have going forward, and I don't think many are going to support Butker when he comes out onto the field.

Depends on how good you are is more the case. Aaron Rodgers has been saying some pretty dumb crap, but he's good enough it all gets swept or forgotten very quickly.

In sports, most things depend on how good you are and what stage you are in your career balanced against whatever you've done, but we've all seen the NFL sweep a lot of terrible stuff for high performing athletes. Butker's speech is pretty low on the totem pole of things NFL players have done and kept their jobs. Pretty surprising that some are outraged by a religious oriented speech when some NFL players are punching women and doing far worse and they keep their jobs.

[River_Dog]

Well Chris Kluwe supported gay rights, and was let go from his team. So I guess it depends what sort of support you have going forward, and I don't think many are going to support Butker when he comes out onto the field.

Depends on how good you are is more the case. Aaron Rodgers has been saying some pretty dumb crap, but he's good enough it all gets swept or forgotten very quickly.

In sports, most things depend on how good you are and what stage you are in your career balanced against whatever you've done, but we've all seen the NFL sweep a lot of terrible stuff for high performing athletes. Butker's speech is pretty low on the totem pole of things NFL players have done and kept their jobs. Pretty surprising that some are outraged by a religious oriented speech when some NFL players are punching women and doing far worse and they keep their jobs.

Or how much money you're worth to them. If a player puts more butts in the seats, then he's going to be able to get away with more.

I also agree on the reaction, or rather the overreaction. Yes, Butker said some pretty provocative things, a lot of which I personally disagree with. But they're only words. Deshawn Watson generated fewer negative comments than Butker did with his speech.

[Aseahawkfan]

Or how much money you're worth to them. If a player puts more butts in the seats, then he's going to be able to get away with more.

I also agree on the reaction, or rather the overreaction. Yes, Butker said some pretty provocative things, a lot of which I personally disagree with. But they're only words. Deshawn Watson generated fewer negative comments than Butker did with his speech.

Watson, another great example. Mr. Happy Ending was less controversial to the left than Butker. But hey, it's just the Rs that are crazy RD. At least that is the narrative.

[River_Dog]

I was wondering how long it would take before some jackass would try to inject race into this discussion. Some people, including Colin Kaepernick via his girlfriend, are calling out what they perceive as a double standard, that the league supports a white player's right to free speech but denounced a black player for taking a knee:

And now the NFL is embroiled in some of the same sort of issues following Chiefs kicker Harrison Butker's controversial speech at Benedictine College's commencement ... which has drawn Kaepernick back into the spotlight.

And Kaepernick is using that spotlight, with the help of girlfriend Nessa Diab, to suggest hypocrisy on the part of the NFL that blackballed him for his social views ...

But is not doing the same with Butker.

Kaepernick is offering a thought of sorts on Butker's situation by reposting an Instagram Story from his girlfriend.
"You all line up to defend Harrison Butker's opinion," the post read. "But when Colin Kaepernick took a knee to state his, you all lost your [expletive]."

Another portion of the post Diab shared said that Butker's speech was "misogynistic and harmful," while Kaepernick's protest against brutality while he played for the 49ers possibly contributed to the end of his NFL career.

"The different reaction to the two should tell you everything," said the post.

"Tell me again how we don't live in a place that has different rules depending on what body you live in."

Can't they tell the difference, that Kaepernick was being paid, in uniform, and representing his team/league when he knelt during the anthem while Butker wasn't "on the clock" and was representing only himself?

I also think that last sentence, that we "live in a place that has different rules", was wholly inaccurate. It was the NFL, not the USA, that made the rules she/he is so upset about.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Got to hand it to Kaepernick and his lady. Don't lose out to capitalize on a publicity opportunity. I doubt they care that much about what Butker said; I'd wager they care more about the exposure they can get from it and what they can get out of that. Kaepernick hasn't had many opportunities to get back in the spotlight.

[4XPIPS]

Got to hand it to Kaepernick and his lady. Don't lose out to capitalize on a publicity opportunity. I doubt they care that much about what Butker said; I'd wager they care more about the exposure they can get from it and what they can get out of that. Kaepernick hasn't had many opportunities to get back in the spotlight.

I think in general sense of Kaepernick, it doesn't surprise me his name would have been brought up given the media frenzy response to Butker's speech. I truly believe Kaepernick's protest would have died off and been forgotten had it not been for his Netflix Series that painted his child hood upbringing and the cultural indifferences he was subject too.

I never had a problem about Kaepernick speaking his mind and standing up for what he believed in, but how he went about it and kneeling during the anthem was something I was totally against. The NFL is a private enterprise, and regardless how much star power you have it is a business that positions itself for the sole purpose to be profitable. Like the NFL and any corporation they have to abide to labor laws, and equal opportunity employment.

Where I truly feel Kaepernick lost most of his support from pundits and various movement outlets, is when he chose not to vote during the 2016 election. Voting (regardless of your belief of what happened in 2020) is one of your most powerful rights a citizen has to support the candidate or policies you believe are best for your community.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/colin-kaep ... m-have-it/

Anytime Colin Kaepernick is mentioned I just think it's malarky now, as he didn't use the one freedom he had to try and make a difference.

[River_Dog]

Got to hand it to Kaepernick and his lady. Don't lose out to capitalize on a publicity opportunity. I doubt they care that much about what Butker said; I'd wager they care more about the exposure they can get from it and what they can get out of that. Kaepernick hasn't had many opportunities to get back in the spotlight.

I think in general sense of Kaepernick, it doesn't surprise me his name would have been brought up given the media frenzy response to Butker's speech. I truly believe Kaepernick's protest would have died off and been forgotten had it not been for his Netflix Series that painted his child hood upbringing and the cultural indifferences he was subject too.

I never had a problem about Kaepernick speaking his mind and standing up for what he believed in, but how he went about it and kneeling during the anthem was something I was totally against. The NFL is a private enterprise, and regardless how much star power you have it is a business that positions itself for the sole purpose to be profitable. Like the NFL and any corporation they have to abide to labor laws, and equal opportunity employment.

Where I truly feel Kaepernick lost most of his support from pundits and various movement outlets, is when he chose not to vote during the 2016 election. Voting (regardless of your belief of what happened in 2020) is one of your most powerful rights a citizen has to support the candidate or policies you believe are best for your community.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/colin-kaep ... m-have-it/

Anytime Colin Kaepernick is mentioned I just think it's malarky now, as he didn't use the one freedom he had to try and make a difference.

I did have a problem with Kaepernick kneeling in that he was painting all of us with the same brush stroke, including some 250 years' worth of good, honest souls, black, white, brown, yellow, male, and female that gave their lives for what was represented by the flag. It was a very poor choice of a time, place, and object that he used to express his views. JMHO.

The problem with Kaepernick's, or his gf's statement about Butker is that many of those who follow or identify with Kaepernick can't see that there's a difference between making a speech in a private setting and representing only yourself and that of kneeling in uniform at a game that he is getting paid to perform in. Many of these folks have this victimization mindset where they will grab onto something like this and use it as an excuse to justify their own failures in life, that factors outside of their control are to blame for their misfortune.

[Aseahawkfan]

I was wondering how long it would take before some jackass would try to inject race into this discussion. Some people, including Colin Kaepernick via his girlfriend, are calling out what they perceive as a double standard, that the league supports a white player's right to free speech but denounced a black player for taking a knee:

And now the NFL is embroiled in some of the same sort of issues following Chiefs kicker Harrison Butker's controversial speech at Benedictine College's commencement ... which has drawn Kaepernick back into the spotlight.

And Kaepernick is using that spotlight, with the help of girlfriend Nessa Diab, to suggest hypocrisy on the part of the NFL that blackballed him for his social views ...

But is not doing the same with Butker.

Kaepernick is offering a thought of sorts on Butker's situation by reposting an Instagram Story from his girlfriend.
"You all line up to defend Harrison Butker's opinion," the post read. "But when Colin Kaepernick took a knee to state his, you all lost your [expletive]."

Another portion of the post Diab shared said that Butker's speech was "misogynistic and harmful," while Kaepernick's protest against brutality while he played for the 49ers possibly contributed to the end of his NFL career.

"The different reaction to the two should tell you everything," said the post.

"Tell me again how we don't live in a place that has different rules depending on what body you live in."

Can't they tell the difference, that Kaepernick was being paid, in uniform, and representing his team/league when he knelt during the anthem while Butker wasn't "on the clock" and was representing only himself?

I also think that last sentence, that we "live in a place that has different rules", was wholly inaccurate. It was the NFL, not the USA, that made the rules she/he is so upset about.

Gotta keep the relevance alive for those contracts and that money. Protesting is big money. Note all the protest leaders upgrading their lifestyle by becoming famous protest leaders running organizations that can organize people. This is America, even protesting is money driven.

[River_Dog]

Well Chris Kluwe supported gay rights, and was let go from his team. So I guess it depends what sort of support you have going forward, and I don't think many are going to support Butker when he comes out onto the field.

Depends on how good you are is more the case. Aaron Rodgers has been saying some pretty dumb crap, but he's good enough it all gets swept or forgotten very quickly.

In sports, most things depend on how good you are and what stage you are in your career balanced against whatever you've done, but we've all seen the NFL sweep a lot of terrible stuff for high performing athletes. Butker's speech is pretty low on the totem pole of things NFL players have done and kept their jobs. Pretty surprising that some are outraged by a religious oriented speech when some NFL players are punching women and doing far worse and they keep their jobs.

Here's another example of NFL teams cutting players due to off field issues:

The Washington Commanders announced on Sunday that they have released kicker Brandon McManus, less than a week after a lawsuit was filed against him and the Jacksonville Jaguars, where two flight attendants claimed McManus sexually assaulted them on the team's flight to London during the 2023 season.

The Commanders signed McManus to a one-year contract earlier this offseason worth $3.6M.

The two women, who were not named in the lawsuit, alleged that the flight had turned into a party and that McManus disregarded their personal space, travel safety and federal laws.

McManus is accused of grinding up against the women and offering $100 bills to drink and dance with him.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/co ... 8c9d&ei=34

Kickers, even good ones like Butker, are a dime a dozen. If Butker ever becomes a liability due to this issue, he'll be gone in a heartbeat. But it's a lot less likely that they'd cut an Aaron Rodgers.

[jshawaii22]

Those planes have security footage. More then likely, the team was sent footage by the accusers lawyers and then they cut him. Cutting him without any proof, just a lawsuit, seems abrupt to me and opens the team up to be sued by the player which would then become public, which is 100% against the NFL's brand.
Think about the same thing with Marshawn Lynch and a 'rape' allegation. He was allowed to prove his innocence (he wasn't in the city that day where he was accused) -- but the team allowed him that opportunity.

[River_Dog]

Those planes have security footage. More then likely, the team was sent footage by the accusers lawyers and then they cut him. Cutting him without any proof, just a lawsuit, seems abrupt to me and opens the team up to be sued by the player which would then become public, which is 100% against the NFL's brand.
Think about the same thing with Marshawn Lynch and a 'rape' allegation. He was allowed to prove his innocence (he wasn't in the city that day where he was accused) -- but the team allowed him that opportunity.

Yeah, and there's a ton of eyewitnesses on the plane as well, and I'm sure that they can document that there was alcohol on board. The Jags are in hot water as well as the league has rules against alcohol being served on team planes.

But my point is that had it involved a Pro Bowl position player, there's no way that they would have let them go so quickly.

[River_Dog]

Not that I doubted his integrity, but it's still very refreshing to see that Butker, despite his controversial remarks, is a good guy and that his teammates love and respect him:

Harrison Butker 'Immediately Ran' for Help After BJ Thompson Began Seizing, Chiefs Say

The Kansas City Chiefs say kicker Harrison Butker sprung into action when his teammate, BJ Thompson, began seizing during a team meeting on Thursday, June 6.

Chiefs safety Justin Reid also spoke to media during Friday's conference, saying Butker is "that guy" when it comes to his teammates. "Harrison's that guy, he loves all of us and we're a family," Reid said, adding, "This is so much deeper than just football. We root for each other and in a moment like that you just have to call yourself into action and Harrison did that."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/ ... 0b1d&ei=17