White House in Dissaray

[Largent80]

Hahaha, now Rump has hit a new low point of approval rating 34%. Only Bush jr. achieved that mark.

I can't believe that 34% approve of anything this buffoon has done in 8 months.

[c_hawkbob]

8 months in office and we're on the brink of nuclear war and have Nazi's killing counter protesters in the streets ... about what could be expected.

[kalibane]

Riv,

Here is where right wing media is responsible. And by right wing media, I don't mean responsible media outlets with a conservative slant like the WSJ, National Review and Washington Times. I mean the Fox News and Breitbarts of the world.

Look at how they covered the Charlottsville incident and then look at the other stories they covered after this weekend. So Fox for example (since people still try to insist that they are actually news), they recount the events briefly then move on to blaming the "mainstream" media for the violence and treating Trump unfairly. Then on to other stories like (I sh*t you not). Obama and BLM, Sharia Law, Clinton's e-mails, Louis Farrakhan and Jeremiah Wright. These aren't stories. They are old worn out dog whistles that they resort to whenever they want to distract people from real news.

So on one hand they act like the racism and in Charlottesville is exaggerated (if anything it was caused by the counter protesters) and then immediately pivot to "See they do it too". It makes people feel comfortable in their racism. I mean seriously... Jeremiah Wright and Louis Farrakhan? That's what you're talking about the day after this weekend? They are absolutely a factor in this.

[RiverDog]

Riv,

Here is where right wing media is responsible. And by right wing media, I don't mean responsible media outlets with a conservative slant like the WSJ, National Review and Washington Times. I mean the Fox News and Breitbarts of the world.

Look at how they covered the Charlottsville incident and then look at the other stories they covered after this weekend. So Fox for example (since people still try to insist that they are actually news), they recount the events briefly then move on to blaming the "mainstream" media for the violence and treating Trump unfairly. Then on to other stories like (I sh*t you not). Obama and BLM, Sharia Law, Clinton's e-mails, Louis Farrakhan and Jeremiah Wright. These aren't stories. They are old worn out dog whistles that they resort to whenever they want to distract people from real news.

So on one hand they act like the racism and in Charlottesville is exaggerated (if anything it was caused by the counter protesters) and then immediately pivot to "See they do it too". It makes people feel comfortable in their racism. I mean seriously... Jeremiah Wright and Louis Farrakhan? That's what you're talking about the day after this weekend? They are absolutely a factor in this.

It's hard for me to comment on the right wing media part of your post. I honestly don't follow a specific news source. The only time I watch cable news is when I'm in my torture chamber (elliptical machine) and a few moments passing by either Fox or CNN on our cafeteria TV sets at work. Otherwise, I get my news articles via my MSN feed that come from a variety of sources. I read the news vs. watch it on television.

But my sense is that this event would have occurred regardless of what positions any media, right wing or otherwise, took or have taken regarding race relations or who occupied the White House, Trump or Obama. As a matter of fact, one could argue that the white supremacists would have been more likely to turn out with Obama as POTUS vs. Trump as it would have given them an enemy.

In general, I don't like rationalizing a problem. It's like blaming the weather, blaming the refs, blaming your teacher, and so on, for your troubles. In this case, I blame the white supremacists themselves for what happened. Period. Any other reason...the counter demonstrators, Trump, media outlets, local officials, police reactions, and so on, is incidental to the primary cause and was not a critical component required for their actions (well, maybe the counter protesters, as it takes two to tango). They need to be condemned in the strongest possible terms, the driver of the car prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and those associated with the KKK and Nazi parties need to be taken to civil court and sued for the death and injuries they caused similar to how the KKK was defeated in the early 80's. Time to sick the lawyers on them.

[kalibane]

Generally I get my news the same way you do. I usually I hit at least 5-6 different sources per day and read. Cable news in general is a sh*t show. And even news aggregation services like MSN can result in a feedback loop because it's algorithms will rank stories based on your browsing history and just build on itself. But, sadly, we don't represent the majority of how people get their news.

There are millions of people in this country who's world view is entirely based on what they see on one cable news channel. And that was a real life example of how they cover the news. So there are millions of people out there where all they know about Charlottesville is what Fox just broadcast. And they actually think they are informed. Fox can't magically turn someone who has no racist tendencies into a KKK member but when someone has that seed of racial grievance inside them, they are like a gardener who's watering that seed.

There is a reason why Putin and almost every Authoritarian leader in history has state run media. It works.

[NorthHawk]

And now "A web hosting provider is fighting back against a search warrant that it claims would require them to turn over information on visitors to a website used to organize protests against President Donald Trump..."

Trying to identify people who organized and commented on peaceful anti-Trump rallies?
Yikes! if true.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/15/politics/ ... index.html

[Largent80]

Rumpology is a new study.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Today Trump walked back (some would say he ran) his denunciation of "hate" groups and went back to blaming "both sides" for what happened in Charlottesville. Trump also conflated the Civil War (War between the States) with the Revolutionary War when he asked "what's next? Are they going to tear down a statue of George Washington?? Are they going to tear down one of Thomas Jefferson, he was a major slave owner, you know, what about him? Is he next??"

I don't know how accurate this is, but I once read some where that many of the statues of heroes of the Confederacy were actually erected decades after the conflict many in the 20th century. The flying of the Stars and Bars in several southern state houses began in response to the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950's. One thing many those in the GOP want people to forget is that little more than a generation ago they were one of the cogs of the Democratic Party, a very powerful cog. They left the DNC for the GOP over the Civil Rights Act of 1965. That is the reason they have been putting far right judges on the US Supreme Court, to push their far right agenda of destroying New Deal pograms such as Social Security under the guise of "saving it" and ending such Great Society programs like Medicare and MedicAide, again, under the LIE of "saving" those programs. Oh, and to top it off Trump and the rest of the GOP wants to undo anything and everything connected to Barak Obama and his presidency, they want to try and wipe out everything that could contribute positively to his "legacy".

Mean while, the Supreme Court, now that they are back to 9 members after Mitch McConnell and the rest of the GOP stole Obama's pick and gave it to Trump they have wasted time renewing their assault on the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and many other rotten court decisions.

One thing Trump, the GOP through their control of the federal court system including the USSupreme Court and their control of so many states Governorships and legislatures are conspiring to guarantee that the democratic party will never again have a majority in either house of congress in Washington, D.C., the White House, and the many states they continue to control.

They plan on GERRY MANDERING the democratic party put of existence and purging democratic voters off the voting rolls in huge numbers an the courts, all they way up to the top will declare that it is all "Constitutional".

How long until Trump declares that he has the power to pardon him self of any crime. Now, it does not spell out that a president does NOT have such power so many on the right, including Alan Dersherwich, supposedly on constitutional scholar. Well, it really shows how craven those on the Right really are and how easily they lie, especially to themselves.

What it DOES spell out in the Constitution and quite plainly is that NO ONE CAN SIT IN JUDGEMENT OF THEMSELVES". There it is, a POTUS cannot "sit in judgement" of himself by issuing himself a pardon.

What makes me really sick is that this current make up of the SCOTUS could rule otherwise, it could rule that a POTUS, Trump in this case, could indeed "pardon" him self.

If Trump ever tried to pardon him self and the SCOTUS ruled in his favor our nation would cease to be a free nation. Our nation would cease to be a democratically elected republic if that should happen, and we might not survive as a republic any how with the way Trump has been going.

If the SCOTUS ruled Trump had the power to pardon him self they would, in effect, declare that Trump is a DICTATOR and would be so up until he either stepped down (not likely) or died natural or otherwise. Then we would see who the NEXT "Dear Leader" would be, a general maybe? McMasters? Kelly?? Mattis??? FLYNN???? Or does one of the kids step up? That would be a laugh. There would more than likely be a blood bath where a whole lot of innocent people will be caught up in it and pay a terrible price. Some deep pocketed industrialist or a consortium of them will seize power. I estimate it would take a little more than 2 years before the rest of the free world to fall after we do... Trump, Pence, and his congressional enablers McConnell and Ryan all need to GO. Trump right now has shown repeatedly that he is UNFIT for office and that doesn't seem to bother Pence or any other high ranking republican. Those in leadership of the GOP totally put the GOP over loyalty to their country, BIG TIME!!!!!

[RiverDog]

Generally I get my news the same way you do. I usually I hit at least 5-6 different sources per day and read. Cable news in general is a sh*t show. And even news aggregation services like MSN can result in a feedback loop because it's algorithms will rank stories based on your browsing history and just build on itself. But, sadly, we don't represent the majority of how people get their news.

There are millions of people in this country who's world view is entirely based on what they see on one cable news channel. And that was a real life example of how they cover the news. So there are millions of people out there where all they know about Charlottesville is what Fox just broadcast. And they actually think they are informed. Fox can't magically turn someone who has no racist tendencies into a KKK member but when someone has that seed of racial grievance inside them, they are like a gardener who's watering that seed.

There is a reason why Putin and almost every Authoritarian leader in history has state run media. It works.

I'd be interested in seeing a survey regarding how and where people get their news nowadays. There are so many options compared to when I was growing up. 3 network stations, not even PBS, our local newspaper, and perhaps a 5 minute news blip once an hour on AM radio....until 6:00 pm. Perhaps that's one of the problems: TMI (too much information).

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with your take on the way some news outlets present the news. I just don't watch enough of it anymore to venture an opinion. But even if you're spot on, how do you change it? I do agree with your statement about people having the seeds of racism sowed in them and that the "gardener" can bring them out, but only if their minds are weak and their souls insecure. A person isn't racist because of Fox News. It's the people that sowed those seeds that bear that responsibility, us parents, teachers, coaches, role models, and so on. We are a lot more at fault than the gardener.

I saw the stuff about Trump's comments regarding the tearing down of civil war monuments, and to a certain degree, I can agree with part of what he is saying. They should not be torn down, rather removed to a more appropriate location, like a Confederate cemetery or museum and not a courthouse or public park. Same goes for the Stars and Bars. Our history, even the ugly parts of it, needs to be preserved, not expunged or purified. But the way Trump framed his argument, it sounds like he's trying to equate Robert E. Lee with George Washington. Another missed opportunity to take the high road.

Good discussion.

[Largent80]

I don't think it matters where you get news these days. Pretty much they all say the same thing, except with a twist based on political values.

And now the AFLCIO says bye-bye to Rump.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/afl-cio-lead ... 29729.html

[Largent80]

Did any of you witness that press conference with Rump yesterday?

OMG, this guy is just hideous.

[kalibane]

I saw the stuff about Trump's comments regarding the tearing down of civil war monuments, and to a certain degree, I can agree with part of what he is saying. They should not be torn down, rather removed to a more appropriate location, like a Confederate cemetery or museum and not a courthouse or public park. Same goes for the Stars and Bars. Our history, even the ugly parts of it, needs to be preserved, not expunged or purified. But the way Trump framed his argument, it sounds like he's trying to equate Robert E. Lee with George Washington. Another missed opportunity to take the high road.

In a rhetorical vacuum there is some truth to this. In context of the real world though it's hollow excuse making on the part of people making that argument.

1. Almost all these confederate monuments were not put up as historical markers. They were put up in direct response to the civil rights movement in the 60's. Same with the stars and bars. Until the Civil Rights movement these people and that flag were not seen as "Southern Heritage". They were resurrected specifically to intimidate black people and remind them of their "place" in society.

2. The argument about preserving the ugly parts of our history is completely disingenuous. The people at the forefront of this issue making these arguments about these monuments as "history" are the same people scrubbing the ugly parts of our history from the actual textbooks that we teach our children with. They don't care about an accurate portrayal of history. This is a straw man.

I have no issue if you want to put this stuff in a museum but at the end of the day they were all traitors to the country and they should be framed in that way, not with reverence. We don't put up statues and name schools after Benedict Arnold or Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in the name of "History". But now I'm going on a tangent...

[Largent80]

I live in rural Texas.

There is a shop less than 5 miles from my house that sells confederate flags. They proudly display them outside of their store.

One of them even says "Heritage, not Hate"...!!!!!!!!!!!

That is what I deal with daily here. You may ask why do you live there?...It's complicated, but here I am.

I'm almost 65, and THIS "president" is by far the worst in my life and that includes Nixon.

[Largent80]

NSFW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhYiJ4z_v_c

[Largent80]

Where's Monkey?...maybe the ostrich in him is burying his hand in his face and then in the sand. A double burial.

Hard to blame him with his "president" being a closet Nazi.

[Largent80]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/hollywood-re ... 25409.html

[Largent80]

Maybe Rump and Bannon need to go into a WH broom closet and Bannon can show Rump how to Suck his own C**k. That way, he can't speak.

[Largent80]

Well, what a difference a day and a mouth makes.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/718718/tr ... 30-percent

[Largent80]

Here are just a few of the companies that have endorsed Rump.

The Strategic and Policy Forum, led by Blackstone CEO Steve Schwarzman, featured:

Paul Atkins, CEO, Patomak Global Partners
Mary Barra, Chairman and CEO, General Motors
Toby Cosgrove, CEO, Cleveland Clinic
Jamie Dimon, Chairman and CEO, JPMorgan Chase
Larry Fink, Chairman and CEO, BlackRock
Rich Lesser, President and CEO, Boston Consulting Group
Doug McMillon, President and CEO, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
Jim McNerney, Former Chairman, President, and CEO, Boeing
Indra Nooyi, Chairman and CEO of PepsiCo
Adebayo "Bayo" Ogunlesi, Chairman and Managing Partner, Global Infrastructure Partners
Ginni Rometty, Chairman, President, and CEO, IBM
Kevin Warsh, Shepard Family Distinguished Visiting Fellow in Economics, Hoover Institute, Former Member of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
Mark Weinberger, Global Chairman and CEO, EY
Jack Welch, Former Chairman and CEO, General Electric
Daniel Yergin, Pulitzer Prize-winner, Vice Chairman of IHS Markit

[Largent80]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... uncil.html

[RiverDog]

In a rhetorical vacuum there is some truth to this. In context of the real world though it's hollow excuse making on the part of people making that argument.

1. Almost all these confederate monuments were not put up as historical markers. They were put up in direct response to the civil rights movement in the 60's. Same with the stars and bars. Until the Civil Rights movement these people and that flag were not seen as "Southern Heritage". They were resurrected specifically to intimidate black people and remind them of their "place" in society.

2. The argument about preserving the ugly parts of our history is completely disingenuous. The people at the forefront of this issue making these arguments about these monuments as "history" are the same people scrubbing the ugly parts of our history from the actual textbooks that we teach our children with. They don't care about an accurate portrayal of history. This is a straw man.

I have no issue if you want to put this stuff in a museum but at the end of the day they were all traitors to the country and they should be framed in that way, not with reverence. We don't put up statues and name schools after Benedict Arnold or Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in the name of "History". But now I'm going on a tangent...

I agree with everything you said except for that which I underlined. I don't think it's disingenuous at all for the Germans to erect monuments to the Holocaust or for the Japanese to maintain reminders of the Rape of Nanking in appropriate settings and with accurate descriptions, nor should it be considered disingenuous to preserve works of art that were once intended to memorialize an ugly part of our history in the form of slavery, the civil war, and reactions to the civil rights movement. Preserving them doesn't mean that one advocates the cause that they were originally intended to represent.

[burrrton]

Preserving them doesn't mean that one advocates the cause that they were originally intended to represent.

I can see both sides of the argument, so I'm kinda "Take em down, don't take em down... who gives a sh*t?" on it.

My problem is with the skidmarks tearing them down themselves when they don't even know who the hell it is or what it's for half the time.

[kalibane]

That's just it Riv. The Germans have commemorations of the holocaust and to victims of the holocaust. They have ZERO statues or monuments to commemorate actual Nazis or the Nazi party. They are ashamed. It is illegal to fly a Nazi flag, use Nazi slogans or perform the Nazi salute in public. I'm sure you've read about the American who gave a Nazi salute in Germany recently and was immediately beaten up.

Now I'm not suggesting we have to go that far. But the Confederate monuments are honoring members of the confederacy. They aren't teaching tools and they weren't erected for that purpose. This is not the same as Germany and how they treat their national shame.

[RiverDog]

That's just it Riv. The Germans have commemorations of the holocaust and to victims of the holocaust. They have ZERO statues or monuments to commemorate actual Nazis or the Nazi party. They are ashamed. It is illegal to fly a Nazi flag, use Nazi slogans or perform the Nazi salute in public. I'm sure you've read about the American who gave a Nazi salute in Germany recently and was immediately beaten up.

Now I'm not suggesting we have to go that far. But the Confederate monuments are honoring members of the confederacy. They aren't teaching tools and they weren't erected for that purpose. This is not the same as Germany and how they treat their national shame.

If we take them out of public buildings, parks, and other common places of assembly, and place them in areas like cemeteries and museums where most citizens and visitors save for those that have a historical interest, a grade school class on a field trip, etc, hardly ever venture, then IMO we are not "honoring" them. Whether we honor them or use them as historical tools depends on how we frame them.

If you're going to completely remove these symbols and pretend that they didn't once exist, you might as well go into the public libraries and burn every single book on the subject.

[RiverDog]

My problem is with the skidmarks tearing them down themselves when they don't even know who the hell it is or what it's for half the time.

That's true. They should be taken down as discretely as possible, in the middle of the night and unannounced, relocated to an undisclosed location...undisclosed for awhile, that is. I suppose that in the case of the Robert E. Lee statute, that opportunity has been lost.

[Largent80]

No. RD

Getting rid of these known pieces of racism is An awesome thing that we can do as Americans.

What would you like to see?

[NorthHawk]

It's actually odd to have monuments dedicated to traitors.
Does any other country have such things? I don't know of any.

[burrrton]

It's actually odd to have monuments dedicated to traitors.

You probably know this, but it's a regional thing (you're not going to find them in Spokane, WA, or even Hayden, ID, which has more than its share of neo-nazi skidmarks)-.

They didn't view their effort to secede as the traitorous act it was, and I don't think they view it as merely fighting to keep slavery legal (which it pretty much was).

[Aseahawkfan]

It's actually odd to have monuments dedicated to traitors.
Does any other country have such things? I don't know of any.

The Southerners you speak of were not traitors. The Civil War was a very unique war that decided certain elements of the Constitution in a certain way. It was very much the right of the Southern States to secede. Secession was part of the Constitution and was legal. Lincoln denied secession on the basis of denying a large number of people their Constitutional rights, but mostly because he was morally against them seceding to protect slavery and he had the Northern industrialists behind him. It came down to a power struggle. Many argue the legality of Lincoln making war on the South. They try to paint Lincoln as a tyrant that undermined the Constitution and destroyed States' rights increasing Federal Power to a level not intended in the Constitution. Legally, they are correct. The Southern States that seceded were exercising their Constitutional Right.

But, screw them, they were morally wrong. Lincoln was morally right. Lincoln did not poison Constitution, slavery did. Slavery was the first and most grievous sin against the Constitution that poisoned it from the very beginning. It is slavery, not Lincoln, that has led us to where we are now. You cannot have slavery in a nation founded upon "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and consider the Constitution anything other than a beautiful idea poisoned from the beginning.

Trump is being an idiot trying to act like both are wrong. White supremacists and neonazis are scum. Though they have the right to promote their evil philosophy in a free nation such as ours, they need to be protested and driven from mainstream society. I understand some of the protesters were showing "Southern Pride", but screw their Southern Pride. The South seceded to preserve slavery. No one was trying to take "their way of life" save to ensure that slavery was no longer a part of this nation. The way they ate, danced, went to church, or any other aspect of their existence was not in question. Only one aspect of Southern Life was in question. And that is all that Confederate Flag stands for as far as I'm concerned.

Southern Pride should have nothing to do with a flag made to preserve an evil that should have never been allowed in this land. This pretense that the Confederate Flag is anything but a symbol of a group of people that tried to preserve a vile evil is ridiculous. Get rid of all the Southern monuments to the preservation of slavery.

[Aseahawkfan]

8 months in office and we're on the brink of nuclear war and have Nazi's killing counter protesters in the streets ... about what could be expected.

North Korea has been building nuclear weapons for a while now, well before Trump was in office. They need to be dealt with, forcefully, very soon. It is coming even if it isn't Trump. If North Korea really has a nuclear weapon, they are going to use it. We'll see a small scale nuclear war. Then we'll see what China does. This inevitable occurrence has little to do with Trump. This was something that as going to happen as soon as the nuclear bomb was created. It is an inevitability due to the nature of human beings and the desire for power. We'll see how big it gets.

As far as the neonazis and white supremacists, they been hurting people for ages no matter who is in office. It seems people want to make a bigger deal of it because Trump is in office and he doesn't react like other presidents who give the usual perfunctory "white supremacy and neonazis" bad speech that doesn't change a damn thing. They continue to do what they do protesting, killing people, burning churches, and the usual garbage they do. The media just decided to run with it because of how they want to paint Trump.

If you pay attention to this type of stuff, really pay attention, you know it happened with regularity regardless of who is president.

I feel like I'm just watching the left wing version of Fox News and the right wing attacks on Obama and Clinton. This time they're targeting Trump like they did Bush Jr. America has ridiculous politics at this point. I doubt any president will make much headway any more. The president is more an entertainment figure for people to vent their rage on or act like they're agreeable buddies. It's foolishness. He's just a man with a lot of advisers and people keeping him from doing much. He's a talking head at this point.

[Largent80]

This is a decent documentary

http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook ... lly-2017-8

[kalibane]

You probably know this, but it's a regional thing (you're not going to find them in Spokane, WA, or even Hayden, ID, which has more than its share of neo-nazi skidmarks)-.

They didn't view their effort to secede as the traitorous act it was, and I don't think they view it as merely fighting to keep slavery legal (which it pretty much was).

I'm sure you've heard about Baltimore taking down "all the confederate monuments" overnight right? Maryland was a Union State. While the monuments are concentrated in the South there are confederate monuments or street names in Maryland, West Virginia, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Kansas, Iowa, Missouri, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Idaho and yes even in Washington State there is a Robert E. Lee public elementary school.

[kalibane]

If we take them out of public buildings, parks, and other common places of assembly, and place them in areas like cemeteries and museums where most citizens and visitors save for those that have a historical interest, a grade school class on a field trip, etc, hardly ever venture, then IMO we are not "honoring" them. Whether we honor them or use them as historical tools depends on how we frame them.

If you're going to completely remove these symbols and pretend that they didn't once exist, you might as well go into the public libraries and burn every single book on the subject.

Like I said you want to put this stuff in the museum and tell the real history of them (in other words talk about who those people were and why those monuments were really put up, I'm all for it). But the history argument IS disingenuous because that is not the reason the monuments were put up in the first place and it's not the reason why people want to keep them where they are.

Furthermore, the center of the Charlottesville strife was the statue of Robert E. Lee. Which was not being destroyed. It was simply resolved to be moved to a different location. So like I said. You may personally have an interest in history, but the people protesting the removal of these monuments are just using history as window dressing in a pathetic attempt at hiding their true motivations. It is very much a disingenuous argument.

[Largent80]

So Rumps big plans to "create American jobs" with his business council and CEO's of many prominent companies is now gone. With many of the CEO's bailing out after his incredible remarks regarding his "base" of neo-nazis and David Dukes of the world he disbands the council. Basically he is quitting, he really should just step down at this point. He is a disgrace to America.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ter-exodus

[Largent80]

Bannon.......https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... c7144d30fd

[c_hawkbob]

8 months in office and we're on the brink of nuclear war and have Nazi's killing counter protesters in the streets ... about what could be expected.

North Korea has been building nuclear weapons for a while now...

As far as the neonazis and white supremacists, they been hurting people for ages no matter who is in office.

Gee really?

Anyone with a brain knows that the ingredients for disaster have always been there, we just don't need a megalomaniac in the most important political position on the planet stirring all the wrong sh!t.

You're not the only only one here really paying attention.

[RiverDog]

Like I said you want to put this stuff in the museum and tell the real history of them (in other words talk about who those people were and why those monuments were really put up, I'm all for it). But the history argument IS disingenuous because that is not the reason the monuments were put up in the first place and it's not the reason why people want to keep them where they are.

Furthermore, the center of the Charlottesville strife was the statue of Robert E. Lee. Which was not being destroyed. It was simply resolved to be moved to a different location. So like I said. You may personally have an interest in history, but the people protesting the removal of these monuments are just using history as window dressing in a pathetic attempt at hiding their true motivations. It is very much a disingenuous argument.

You don't have to maintain the same rationale in relocating them as was present when the monuments were erected. Like I said, it all depends on how you frame it, how and where it is presented. They don't all have to be preserved, but enough of them need to be kept in order to have their story told rather than forgotten. Physical monuments and symbols make the story seem more real, takes it out of the textbook and puts it in front of your face. Martin Luther King needs George Wallace and Lester Maddox in order for King's story to be told.

Back to the traitors discussion. I agree with ASF's take. Those that fought for the south were not traitors in the conventional sense. Although I have not read much about Robert E. Lee, I do know that he would have fought for the north had his home state of Virginia not voted to secede, so it's not clear to me just how much moral commitment he had to the specific cause of the war. He was a professional soldier that was fighting for his state. People on both sides of the conflict back then had a much stronger sense of loyalty to their states than is present today. Indeed, entire regiments were formed and fought under the respective states' names...the regiment commemorated in the movie "Glory" about the first black regiment (a great movie if you've never watched it) was the Massachusetts 54th. And the country was much younger back then, just "four score and 7 years" old, barely a human lifetime, and still finding its way. I would argue that our country is much better today because we fought the civil war than had slavery simply been legislated out or died on the vine by becoming obsolete.

[Largent80]

Maybe Smithsonian could make an educational display like the Holocaust museum. I have been to that and it really is a sobering thing to experience.

[RiverDog]

North Korea has been building nuclear weapons for a while now, well before Trump was in office. They need to be dealt with, forcefully, very soon. It is coming even if it isn't Trump. If North Korea really has a nuclear weapon, they are going to use it. We'll see a small scale nuclear war. Then we'll see what China does. This inevitable occurrence has little to do with Trump. This was something that as going to happen as soon as the nuclear bomb was created. It is an inevitability due to the nature of human beings and the desire for power. We'll see how big it gets.

As far as the neonazis and white supremacists, they been hurting people for ages no matter who is in office. It seems people want to make a bigger deal of it because Trump is in office and he doesn't react like other presidents who give the usual perfunctory "white supremacy and neonazis" bad speech that doesn't change a damn thing. They continue to do what they do protesting, killing people, burning churches, and the usual garbage they do. The media just decided to run with it because of how they want to paint Trump.

If you pay attention to this type of stuff, really pay attention, you know it happened with regularity regardless of who is president.

I feel like I'm just watching the left wing version of Fox News and the right wing attacks on Obama and Clinton. This time they're targeting Trump like they did Bush Jr. America has ridiculous politics at this point. I doubt any president will make much headway any more. The president is more an entertainment figure for people to vent their rage on or act like they're agreeable buddies. It's foolishness. He's just a man with a lot of advisers and people keeping him from doing much. He's a talking head at this point.

Glad you jumped in, ASF. I enjoy reading your takes.

Yea, you can go all the way back to Truman if you want to lay blame for the North Korea situation. It's been an open wound that's been festering for over 60 years. I'm not worried that Trump is going to push the button. All indications are that we are going to let South Korea and Japan make the call on any offensive action, and they are both extremely reluctant because of the devastating consequences their countries would suffer even if the conflict were non nuclear. The only way Trump acts unilaterally is if our territory is attacked directly. As far as China goes, they have a lot more to lose than we do if they were to break ties with us and side completely with North Korea. They're bluffing big time by threatening to join forces with North Korea if we were to attack.

I, too, believe that the events in Charlottesville were not the result of who was in office. The neo Nazis and KKK took the very public removal attempts of what they regard as "their" symbol as a slap in the face. That was what lit the fuse, not the election of Donald Trump.

One thing that Charlottesville did was that it brought out just how much of a racist Trump is. If anyone had any doubts, they should be erased by now. I'd be curious if savvyman and monkey have changed their opinions in light of recent events.

[kalibane]

Riv,

No one is trying to erase Robert E. Lee from the country's history. Believe me, the people that want these monuments down want a fuller representation of this portion of American History, more similar to how Germany treats it's Nazi history, with honesty and shame.

You kind of ignored the part that the entire plan was to move the Robert E. Lee Statue in Charlottesville to a new location, exactly what you are talking about. But people on the other side of this debate about monuments don't care about that detail. They want these monuments to remain in places of reverence because they know it's an affront to people they disagree with ideologically (in the best case) or in the worst cases because they are flat out racists. Their goal isn't to preserve history, it's to continue to white wash what really happened, which is the purpose that these statues serve.

If you proposed to the people who oppose monument removal that the statues could stay provided that plaques were added that detailed the evil these men fought for and perpetrated in their own right, they would still be outraged. Their goal isn't to preserve history, it's to sanitize it. Which is why there aren't wide spread monuments through the South dedicated to John Brown, Nat Turner or Jemmy (who I bet you never heard of). I mean aren't those men part of the great southern heritage? How many schools are named after them? How many statues do they have in their honor? They want to pretend that Robert E. Lee was some genteel southern gentleman who served the confederacy out of duty and patriotism and not the man who saw slavery as a divine mandate and who also captured free black men in Pennsylvania and sent them to the south as slaves.

The people who are in denial of history are the ones fighting to keep these statues up. They are just using history as an excuse, because saying "I want to continue to celebrate racists" is not acceptable in our society anymore.