RiverDog wrote:Keenum doesn't turn the ball over like Mudbone did. On second thought, no one turned the ball over like Mudbone.
It will, indeed, be interesting as to what happens to Keenum next year. Suppose he wins the SB MVP? With Schumer almost certainly leaving for another team, does Keenum follow him or do the Vikings resign him and decline to pick up Bridgewater's option, making him a FA? Bridgewater is still pretty much an unproven quantity.
Hawktawk wrote:I was gonna say Krieg had the soap dish pass down pretty well and threw a relatively high number of picks but his line had Russell Wilson syndrome much of his career and also QB and receiver protections were much less advantageous in the day.
Keenum's ill advised moon ball for a pick in the second half did remind me of Krieg as well though.
Buth have that blue collar lunch pail and hard hat came from nowhere attitude and both scrap till the last whistle.
I still remember Krieg at arrowhead in 1989 driving the length of the field in 38 seconds and throwing a TD to Skansi as time expired. Also a miracle win against NE in the mid 80s on a last second bomb to Ray Butler.
Just brought back a little nostalgia.
I always pull for the underdogs.
Oly wrote:I guess I'm the only guy thinking that Keenum's final pass was either a bad decision or bad throw made good by worse tackling. There is no way Keenum should have thrown it 4 or 5 yards inside the sideline. If Diggs had been tackled like he should have been, everyone would be asking why he didn't throw a sideline pass there.
RiverDog wrote: On second thought, no one turned the ball over like Mudbone.
RiverDog wrote:The ball was thrown towards the sidelines, completed no more than 3 yards in bounds...indeed, Diggs nearly stepped out of bounds after catching it, so I'd call that a sideline pass. Additionally, although he wasn't running full tilt, Diggs momentum was carrying him towards the sidelines, and with both him and Williams roughly the same size and weight with Williams coming in from a bit of an angle, it would have taken a perfect tackle to bring Diggs down in bounds. IMO the only chance Williams had was to take Diggs feet out from underneath him when he went airborne to make the catch. Otherwise, Diggs could have easily won a struggle to get just a yard or two out of bounds.
The problem was that Williams put his head down prior to the tackle and completely whiffed, taking out his teammate in the process.
mykc14 wrote:Get off Kreig's back!!!! These guys have more career turnovers than him (Ints/Fumb)... There were a few guys who turned it over like Mud Bone!
Farve 502
Moon 394
Testiverde 390
Elway 363
Marino 362
Kreig 351
Dan Fouts 348
Eli Manning 343
Oly wrote:
This image suggests it was a good 4 yards, IMO. And I don't think it would have taken a perfect tackle; a good angle with his head up would have done it. Diggs' momentum would have been nullified by the fact that he was in the air.
RiverDog wrote:How can you see that he was 4 yards away? It's a close up angle and you can't even see the sidelines. 4 yards is a lot of space in a close up angle like that pic.
RiverDog wrote:I think we can settle the debate by noting that not only would Williams have had to hit him while he was in the air, he would have had to make the tackle in such a manner that Digg's feet would not have hit the ground, meaning that he would have had to have gone below the waist and taken his legs out from underneath him. If he hesitates and tries to wrap him up rather than hurling himself at his legs, Diggs hits the ground and makes it a few steps to to the sideline.
The other thing is that Williams might have been preoccupied about drawing a PI, and hesitated enough to throw his timing off.
This play is libel to get scrutinized as much as Russell's pick in SB 49.
RiverDog wrote:
You'd have to divide those numbers by games played or offensive plays for that stat to have any relevance. I'm pretty sure that most if not all of those QB's played in way more games than did Krieg.
Besides, it wasn't just that he fumbled, it was the way he fumbled, usually while trying to do something Favre-ish. I once saw Krieg fumble when there wasn't a player within 5 yards of him, he just plain dropped the ball.
politicalfootball wrote:So about as good as Eli Manning. Looks like Moon would win the battle of turnovers and he was a Seahawk for a while.
Go Seahawks !
mykc14 wrote:Actually when adding games played it doesn't much change the outcome. I'll show you a breakdown of turnovers per game played and total games in parentheses:
Favre 1.6 (302)
Moon- 1.3 (208)
Testiverde- 1.7 (233)
Elway- 1.6 (234)
Marino- 1.5 (242)
Fouts- 1.9 (181)
Eli- 1.6 (216)
Kreig- 1.6 (213)
politicalfootball wrote:Dave Krieg : Jim Zorn , Matt Hasselback . All time greats in my book. I too have been watching the Seahawks since 1976. I have a coaches name for you to.
Mike Holmgren. Coaches are more important too.
Go Seahawks !
RiverDog wrote:
OK, now you've done it. You've made me do my homework (you are a teacher, so I guess that's fair!).
Your numbers did change quite a bit. In your previous graphic, all but two of the 8 QB's had more turnovers than Krieg. In this one, there's only two that had fewer. The other thing I've noted is that your numbers do not show a fair comparison. Although he played in 213 games, Krieg only started in 175 of them. By contrast, Moon started in 203 out of 208, Favre in 298 of his 302.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... vrBr00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... onWa00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ieDa00.htm
But that aside, my argument wasn't about total turnovers, it was specific to fumbles. You're the one that added interceptions to the equation. Here's the all time list of NFL fumblers:
Brett Favre 166
Warren Moon 161
Dave Krieg 152
Kerry Collins 139
John Elway 137
Drew Bledsoe 123
Boomer Esiason 123
Vinnie Testaverde 116
Eli Manning 115
Tom Brady 114
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... career.htm
I can't find a source that tracks offensive plays ran in a player's career, which would be the best yardstick to measure fumbling, but as we both noted, Favre played in a lot more games than either Krieg or Moon, by 90 some games, and although they played in roughly the same number of games, Moon started in 32 more games, two full seasons, than did Krieg. And as I said before, it wasn't so much how often Krieg fumbled, it was the manner in which he fumbled.
My point is that Dave Krieg is one of the most notorious fumblers in NFL history, and as a Seahawk fan from 1976, he will go down in my book as having caused some of the most classic F-ups (and to be fair, some of our greatest moments) in franchise history.
mykc14 wrote:As long as I have made you do some research I am happy!! The only reason I added interceptions is because you said "nobody turned the ball over like mudbone." I understand that your comment was tongue and cheek but when somebody disrespects Mudbone I've got to defend him a little bit. I guess it goes back to grade school when my friends would always talk about how crappy he was and I was the only one who would defend him. I agree that he turned the ball over too much and at inopportune times. The other thing that my stats didn't count is fumbles LOST. I could only find total fumbles. I would imagine if you dig into FUMBLES LOST Kreig would be higher on that list than he is in TOTAL FUMBLES. I know he had his faults but anytime Mudbone is bashed I have to defend him at least a little bit...
RiverDog wrote:
although his fumbles are what we remember most about him, he compiled some HOF worthy numbers in other areas of his game.
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