GAME DAY Denver vs Seattle

[obiken]

Anthony or anybody, when a player like Marshal gives a fan a football, do they get to keep it??

[mykc14]

Anthony or anybody, when a player like Marshal give a fan a football, do they get to keep it??

Yes

[jshawaii22]

Lockett to the EZ on the bomb! Hawks take the lead and the D is playing way better this half. We have a chance

[obiken]

Thats cool! those are worth some money!

[Anthony]

Way to make up for the int and get moving RW around

[obiken]

My bad it was Lockett!

[Anthony]

Penalties still killing us, he was out and originally called out then changed, I bet they say not enough to overturn.

[Anthony]

This game could come down to the 2 missed fgs,

[Anthony]

No one open, oline again

[Anthony]

Penny run north and south. Oline try blocking

[Anthony]

Oline is costing us this game

[curmudgeon]

John Schneider-when the chips are down, that is your offensive line.....

[Anthony]

John Schneider-when the chips are down, that is your offensive line.....

Yes

[trents]

OL a sieve again.

[Anthony]

The issue oline and penalties

[curmudgeon]

Quite the two minute drill......

[mykc14]

That was ugly

[Anthony]

That was ugly

Yup we don't fix the oline we are screwed and Wilson will not last the season

[Stream Hawk]

This team could be in a lot of trouble. Big time. Our oline could be worse than last year if Ifedi plays this bad next couple of weeks

[obiken]

Yup we don't fix the oline we are screwed and Wilson will not last the season

Yup, 7 sacks says is all, we had so many defenders of our OL on this site. We actually have some good weapons, but against good teams we are going to suck big donkey weenies.

[Anthony]

Yup, 7 sacks says is all, we had so many defenders of our OL on this site. We actually have some good weapons, but against good teams we are going to suck big donkey weenies.

I agree and worse we might loose RW. Up next Bears and Mack, still face rams x2, minny, Panthers, not good

[Aseahawkfan]

O-line still sucks. We lost to a Case Keenum led Broncos team that put up 27 points. This is going to be a long year.

[trents]

Teams are doing a good job anymore of containing RW in the pocket. RPO not very productive as it was in RW's first couple of years.

[Anthony]

Teams are doing a good job anymore of containing RW in the pocket. RPO not very productive as it was in RW's first couple of years.

to be honest, that did not totally work as he had almost 300 yards, but what killed the offense was the constant pressure, hits, hurries and sacks. I believe ESPN had it at over 60% of the time. Also penalties on the oline

[idhawkman]

McDougald should have had 3 INTs. The second play that Denver ran they threw over the middle and ET knocked the ball way up in the air and it slipped through McDougald's hands. That would have been sweet for him to have a 3 INT day. I know he isn't Kam but he did have a pretty good day and may be an adequate replacement for Kam.

[RiverDog]

"Teams are doing a good job anymore of containing RW in the pocket. RPO not very productive as it was in RW's first couple of years.

to be honest, that did not totally work as he had almost 300 yards, but what killed the offense was the constant pressure, hits, hurries and sacks. I believe ESPN had it at over 60% of the time. Also penalties on the oline

To be honest, you're making excuses for Russell again. Granted, the OL leaks like a sieve and there wasn't a lot of opportunity for Russell to make big plays But several of those sacks were caused by Russell's scrambling and failing to get rid of the ball and consequently taking a huge loss rather than living for another down. As noted in another thread, Russell can't be executing those blind reverse spins of his when Von Miller lines up to his right, Ifedi out on an island with him, and Russell rolls left. Unless Russell changes his tactics, we're going to be in for another 6 sack night next week against Kahlil Mack and Co.

Trent is exactly right. Teams are doing a much better job of containing Russell, not to mention the fact that Russell is no longer a spring chicken and hasn't yet recognized the fact that his game needs to evolve.

Having said that, for all their problems, the offense wasn't all that bad. 24 points would have won 8 of the 14 games played yesterday. The major problem was that the defense couldn't stop Denver's running attack.

[Aseahawkfan]

To be honest, you're making excuses for Russell again. Granted, the OL leaks like a sieve and there wasn't a lot of opportunity for Russell to make big plays But several of those sacks were caused by Russell's scrambling and failing to get rid of the ball and consequently taking a huge loss rather than living for another down. As noted in another thread, Russell can't be executing those blind reverse spins of his when Von Miller lines up to his right, Ifedi out on an island with him, and Russell rolls left. Unless Russell changes his tactics, we're going to be in for another 6 sack night next week against Kahlil Mack and Co.

Trent is exactly right. Teams are doing a much better job of containing Russell, not to mention the fact that Russell is no longer a spring chicken and hasn't yet recognized the fact that his game needs to evolve.

Having said that, for all their problems, the offense wasn't all that bad. 24 points would have won 8 of the 14 games played yesterday. The major problem was that the defense couldn't stop Denver's running attack.

Russell's game has evolved for the most part. Pete's no turnover offense hasn't and Russ's "always looking for the better" play mentality hasn't. He needs to understand what Brady and Manning have learned: get the ball out as quick as possible and keep the offense on time. Though it doesn't help that Russell doesn't have the receiving options Indy and New England have, especially once Baldwin went down. People talk about continuity on O-line, but QBs are also helped by continuity at receiver. It's no accident that the best passing games have been when a great QB has great receiving options he's worked with for some years.

[RiverDog]

Russell's game has evolved for the most part. Pete's no turnover offense hasn't and Russ's "always looking for the better" play mentality hasn't. He needs to understand what Brady and Manning have learned: get the ball out as quick as possible and keep the offense on time. Though it doesn't help that Russell doesn't have the receiving options Indy and New England have, especially once Baldwin went down. People talk about continuity on O-line, but QBs are also helped by continuity at receiver. It's no accident that the best passing games have been when a great QB has great receiving options he's worked with for some years.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If Russell hasn't gotten over his "always looking for a better play" mentality, if he doesn't understand what Brady and Manning learned in getting the ball out quickly, then his game IMO hasn't evolved. As he ages, he's going to have to rely less and less on his legs and more and more on his arm and brain power. We're not going to see Russell rushing for 500-800 yards a season anymore. At least in this game, I didn't see a lot of evidence that he's progressed to that stage yet.

I'm not so sure that Russell has had a whole lot less consistency in his receiving corps than any other starting QB. Baldwin (though now injured) has been with him for his entire career. This will be Lockett's 3rd season with him. Jimmy Graham and Jermaine Kearse were both multi year receivers before they moved on. I'm willing to be that's pretty much par with other QB's like Brady and Rodgers have had to deal with.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. If Russell hasn't gotten over his "always looking for a better play" mentality, if he doesn't understand what Brady and Manning learned in getting the ball out quickly, then his game IMO hasn't evolved. As he ages, he's going to have to rely less and less on his legs and more and more on his arm and brain power. We're not going to see Russell rushing for 500-800 yards a season anymore. At least in this game, I didn't see a lot of evidence that he's progressed to that stage yet.

I want to see if you can use your ability to analyze facts to see if what you just said is true. I want to check his rush stats versus his pass stats and see if his game has evolved as in can he carry a team with his arm. I think he's very much proven he can and that is evolution. He's careful with the ball because Pete wants no turnovers and this offense isn't designed for the quick passing game. Until an OC comes in and actually teaches him a quick passing attack, then you won't see an evolution. Pete doesn't seem to like that style of offense even though ti works very well.

I'm not so sure that Russell has had a whole lot less consistency in his receiving corps than any other starting QB. Baldwin (though now injured) has been with him for his entire career. This will be Lockett's 3rd season with him. Jimmy Graham and Jermaine Kearse were both multi year receivers before they moved on. I'm willing to be that's pretty much par with other QB's like Brady and Rodgers have had to deal with.

Why do you say this stuff watching the same team I do? Lockett was a rookie in year 1. He was injured in year 2. Kearse was never very good. Graham was also injured and lost a year. Russell and Graham were getting on the same page when we let him walk. Other than that, who has he had? Even New England had a continuous series of guys that worked with Brady that were quality from Wes Welker to Whitehead to Randy Moss to Gronk and other excellent possession receivers with experience. On top of that Belichick has designed a quick hitting passing offense designed to get the ball out quick. Manning almost always had at least one high performing receiver or better.

Russ has had a revolving door of receivers not named Baldwin. Not particularly high quality receivers either. We even went to a Super Bowl where the best receiver was some no name not even on a roster anymore and we came within 1 yard of winning that. Do you even remember that guys name in the Super Bowl that caught 2 TDs? Chris something.

Give me a break. It's pretty easy to track that Pete and John haven't managed the offense very well from the receivers to the O-line. Pete wants to run, so that's how the offense is built. It's not a WCO style quick passing attack and that's on Pete. I think Pete should get Russell working on that type of offense, especially considering we can't run. He certainly isn't hiring the right O-coordinators for it.

Russell's stats were good. Not sure how many more TDs he's supposed to throw a game for us to win. If you're thinking it needs to be more than 2 every game, have fun with that. 3 TD games every game is basically setting the NFL record.

[RiverDog]

I want to see if you can use your ability to analyze facts to see if what you just said is true. I want to check his rush stats versus his pass stats and see if his game has evolved as in can he carry a team with his arm. I think he's very much proven he can and that is evolution. He's careful with the ball because Pete wants no turnovers and this offense isn't designed for the quick passing game. Until an OC comes in and actually teaches him a quick passing attack, then you won't see an evolution. Pete doesn't seem to like that style of offense even though ti works very well.

Why do you say this stuff watching the same team I do? Lockett was a rookie in year 1. He was injured in year 2. Kearse was never very good. Graham was also injured and lost a year. Russell and Graham were getting on the same page when we let him walk. Other than that, who has he had? Even New England had a continuous series of guys that worked with Brady that were quality from Wes Welker to Whitehead to Randy Moss to Gronk and other excellent possession receivers with experience. On top of that Belichick has designed a quick hitting passing offense designed to get the ball out quick. Manning almost always had at least one high performing receiver or better.

Russ has had a revolving door of receivers not named Baldwin. Not particularly high quality receivers either. We even went to a Super Bowl where the best receiver was some no name not even on a roster anymore and we came within 1 yard of winning that. Do you even remember that guys name in the Super Bowl that caught 2 TDs? Chris something.

Give me a break. It's pretty easy to track that Pete and John haven't managed the offense very well from the receivers to the O-line. Pete wants to run, so that's how the offense is built. It's not a WCO style quick passing attack and that's on Pete. I think Pete should get Russell working on that type of offense, especially considering we can't run. He certainly isn't hiring the right O-coordinators for it.

Russell's stats were good. Not sure how many more TDs he's supposed to throw a game for us to win. If you're thinking it needs to be more than 2 every game, have fun with that. 3 TD games every game is basically setting the NFL record.

You might have a point about his receiving corps. I'm just not sure how much of a difference there is between the turbulance of Russell's receiving corps vs. other top QB's.

As far as his evolving, I don't see it yet. He's still taking sacks while trying to play Houdini. He can't do that into his 30's. I don't see him consistently getting rid of the ball to the same degree as the aforementioned Brady and Manning do or did. He's run for 500+ yards in every season except for his rookie year and the year he was injured, and I don't see that happening anymore, certainly not under Schott's offense. He rushed for 5 yards in 2 attempts vs. Denver.

I've already stated that Russell's game wasn't that bad Sunday and not the root cause of our loss. But for whatever reason, whether it's Pete's philosophy, the lack of a consistent receiving corps, our offensive line woes, a lack of a running game, or any other fill in the blank excuse we can come up with, he still hasn't taken that next step. We were 9-7 and missed the playoffs with him "carrying the team" last season, and our defense is worse this year than it was last year, so if we are going anywhere this season, he's going to have to improve.

We can still win games with him playing like he did Sunday, but we're not going to the Super Bowl in this current configuration unless he can take that step. I think he can and will make those changes and that we'll eventually get there, so don't join Anthony and classify me as a Russell hater. I'm simply trying to look at his performance with an objective eye.

[RiverDog]

Here's an example of why I feel that Russell's game has yet to evolve:

https://twitter.com/BaldyNFL/status/1039259711705624577

On this play, Russell is getting pressure from both ends but as you can see, there's a huge hole between Sweezy and Ifedi that Russell could have stepped up into and either gotten a pass off or run for positive yards. Russell was in a shotgun so he had to have seen that Miller was making a strong outside rush and that if he retreated, he'd lose. Russell has this tendoncy to break the pocket to the outside as that's where he can make his biggest plays from, such as the Lockett touchdown, rather than be conservative and take what the defense gives him.

That was a 3rd and 3 at our own 43 with 9 minutes to go in the 4th quarter trailing by 3. We did not need a home run on that play. That doesn't excuse our tackles for getting beat like they did, but that sack was avoidable and mostly on Russell. You won't see Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady taking a sack like that. It was caused by Russell's running around looking for a big play when all he needed was 3 frigging yards.

[NorthHawk]

Russell did that a couple of times and if my memory is correct he's developed a tendency (last couple of years) to curl deeper when under pressure.
Players seem to now plan for him to run toward his own end zone when tracking him.

We talk about Ifedi having a bad game, but he was going against Von Miller - one of the best and in that clip, Miller beat Brown for the sack.
Wilson needs to have more discipline and take what the Defense is giving him more often. Getting chunk plays are nice, but the game is about
getting 1st downs first and foremost.

We started off way too slowly on Offense once again.
1st Quarter 2 3 and outs, 2 punts, one interception and a 15 yard pass to Dissly for a TD. A total of 12 plays including punts.
2nd Quarter got better with 21 plays including Punts and FG's or attempts.
We have to start grinding out drives and that means making the safe short throws that will move the chains. Then go downfield.

A running game will help, but again we fell into the same trap of passing instead of pounding the ball we've had for the last few years.
If we want to have a running game, we have to run the ball.

[The POPE]

I’m with River on Russell’s lack of development. He has achieved success with his scrambling, but now he is a little older, probably a little slower and the defenses are all aware that with the1st sign of pressure he is going to bail out towards the Hawks goal line. Russell doesn’t step up in the pocket often enough or slide from side to side ala Brady, Rogers, etc. he isn’t comfortable in the pocket ( o-line sucks too), but the elite QB’s and offensive coordinators find a way to work around subpar o-line talent from time to time. He is clearly more comfortable throwing from outside the pocket ( probably too short to see in the pocket) , but it’s hard to make a living in the NFL throwing from outside the pocket on every down. The Raiders looked good for a half against the Rams before Carr and Chucky imploded by utilizing the quick
Passing game and neutralizing the Rams pass rush. Good game plan going in, just couldn’t execute it for 4 qtrs.. if the Hawks stand a chance against the Rams the quick passing game will have to be a big part of the game plan. If it isn’t Russell will be on IR. If part of the problem is Russell not being able to read the defenses quick enough and trust the short quick game then Russell is
Not a top tier QB and should not be paid as one. The quick game needs to be incorporated into the game plan. Maybe Bevell never incorporated it much because he saw a flaw in Russell s game. We will see going forward where Schottenheimer takes it. If Russ and Schottenheimer travel down the same path it may be telling thst Russell has reached his peak and will only and always just be Fran Tarkington Clone.


The Pope

[idhawkman]

I’m with River on Russell’s lack of development. He has achieved success with his scrambling, but now he is a little older, probably a little slower and the defenses are all aware that with the1st sign of pressure he is going to bail out towards the Hawks goal line. Russell doesn’t step up in the pocket often enough or slide from side to side ala Brady, Rogers, etc. he isn’t comfortable in the pocket ( o-line sucks too), but the elite QB’s and offensive coordinators find a way to work around subpar o-line talent from time to time. He is clearly more comfortable throwing from outside the pocket ( probably too short to see in the pocket) , but it’s hard to make a living in the NFL throwing from outside the pocket on every down. The Raiders looked good for a half against the Rams before Carr and Chucky imploded by utilizing the quick
Passing game and neutralizing the Rams pass rush. Good game plan going in, just couldn’t execute it for 4 qtrs.. if the Hawks stand a chance against the Rams the quick passing game will have to be a big part of the game plan. If it isn’t Russell will be on IR. If part of the problem is Russell not being able to read the defenses quick enough and trust the short quick game then Russell is
Not a top tier QB and should not be paid as one. The quick game needs to be incorporated into the game plan. Maybe Bevell never incorporated it much because he saw a flaw in Russell s game. We will see going forward where Schottenheimer takes it. If Russ and Schottenheimer travel down the same path it may be telling thst Russell has reached his peak and will only and always just be Fran Tarkington Clone.


The Pope

Amazing how much crap I've taken over the last few years saying he wasn't "elite", YET! If he can't develop the short quick pass game he never will be either.

That said, Fran lost 4 SBs whereas RW has won one. That's the difference I see so far...

[NorthHawk]

I think the last few years have given him a phobia about standing in the pocket and with his athleticism and past success, he bails out too early.
He's not too short to move up in the pocket because most of the time the field opens up when the QB moves forward ahead of the pass rush which was trying to
get to him 8 yards behind the LoS.

[Aseahawkfan]

You guys are dissecting plays now? Russell loses Doug Baldwin, is working with brand new TEs, and threw for nearly 300 yards and 3 TDS and you guys think he hasn't evolved or isn't elite? Wow. What is your criteria?

[Aseahawkfan]

Amazing how much crap I've taken over the last few years saying he wasn't "elite", YET! If he can't develop the short quick pass game he never will be either.

And you're still wrong. Russell's elite.

That said, Fran lost 4 SBs whereas RW has won one. That's the difference I see so far...

And a lot of worse QBs have won more Super Bowls and a lot of better QBs have won fewer, because this is a team sport. The QB alone doesn't win or lose the Super Bowl, the team does. It doesn't matter if you're elite or otherwise.

[Aseahawkfan]

As far as his evolving, I don't see it yet. He's still taking sacks while trying to play Houdini. He can't do that into his 30's. I don't see him consistently getting rid of the ball to the same degree as the aforementioned Brady and Manning do or did. He's run for 500+ yards in every season except for his rookie year and the year he was injured, and I don't see that happening anymore, certainly not under Schott's offense. He rushed for 5 yards in 2 attempts vs. Denver.

This is your only criteria for evolution is that he still scrambles? He has to stop scrambling to evolve? Not sure I agree with that. His ability to pass has steadily risen without a dramatic drop off with his running ability. I think that is very solid evolution. He's been punching in more passing TDs.

We lost because our defense is bad now. Opponent scored 27 points. Anything higher than 20 points is usually a loss for us. Our conservative style of offense doesn't do very well when we get behind. Been that way since Pete's been here. Not sure why anyone is looking to Russell as the problem. We have much bigger problems known as a bad defense and not much of a run game or O-line.

[RiverDog]

This is your only criteria for evolution is that he still scrambles? He has to stop scrambling to evolve? Not sure I agree with that. His ability to pass has steadily risen without a dramatic drop off with his running ability. I think that is very solid evolution. He's been punching in more passing TDs.

Of course, his evolution isn't just about not scrambling. It's about being smarter with his scrambling. Teams know that he likes that reverse spin and retreats further away from the LOS than other QB's, so they are taking deeper pass rushes, especially when they are in his blind side. That play I highlighted is a perfect example. Rather than scrambling from his right to his left, he should have taken it straight ahead and veered to his right and done so without hesitation as soon as he saw that his first look wasn't open. The game situation was that he needed just 3 yards. But instead, he tried to scramble to his left, got in trouble, then reverse spinned right into a rushing Von Miller for a huge loss. Additionally, his evolution is about getting the ball out quicker. Everyone from Pete Carroll on down has recognized that Russell holds onto the ball too long. Quicker throws, whether complete or incomplete, means fewer sacks.

We lost because our defense is bad now. Opponent scored 27 points. Anything higher than 20 points is usually a loss for us. Our conservative style of offense doesn't do very well when we get behind. Been that way since Pete's been here. Not sure why anyone is looking to Russell as the problem. We have much bigger problems known as a bad defense and not much of a run game or O-line.

We lost in large part to our defense. The offense scored 24 points, which is good enough to win perhaps 60% of all NFL games. But it wasn't the only reason. The offense turned the ball over three times and we gave up 6 sacks for 50+ yards. That's one helluva lot of field position to surrender. Plus we were just 2-12 on 3rd down, which showed up in our TOP deficiency. It didn't help matters for our kicker to miss a makeable FG, but since his name isn't Blair Walsh, there wasn't a peep mentioned about that failure.

[Aseahawkfan]

We lost in large part to our defense. The offense scored 24 points, which is good enough to win perhaps 60% of all NFL games. But it wasn't the only reason. The offense turned the ball over three times and we gave up 6 sacks for 50+ yards. That's one helluva lot of field position to surrender. Plus we were just 2-12 on 3rd down, which showed up in our TOP deficiency. It didn't help matters for our kicker to miss a makeable FG, but since his name isn't Blair Walsh, there wasn't a peep mentioned about that failure.

If you expect other QBs to play better on the road against the Denver defense, then go and try to get them on the team. I guess you think Russell's stat line is some kind of bad performance on the road against a relentless pass rush. So must be nearly every QB in the league could put up better in the same circumstances. Personally, I can't think of 5 other QBs in the league that put up a better performance under the same circumstances than Russ did, maybe not even they do better. Russ had a good day, but we're a weaker team. Until the surrounding parts get better, the team is likely going to lose. I certainly am not going to pile on the one bright spot doing the job at a high level until I see Russ doing anything other than giving us the best chance of winning we have.