Concerns Hiring Schottenheimer and the Desperate Trades

[Aseahawkfan]

The things I haven't liked about the past few years: the desperate trades and the hiring of Schottenheimer. We have no choice but to hope things work, but man, Pete and John have wasted some serious draft capital with minimal returns.

The desperate trades of 2nd and 3rd rounders for marginal talent or talent they let walk away just reeks of desperation and lack of confidence in the draft. It feels a great deal different than when Pete and John first arrived and they would find lots of hidden gems and draft very solid in the first three rounds on defense (their drafting of offense has almost always been offensive other than QB). Have Pete and John lost their confidence when it comes to drafting? Did they throw in the towel drafting offense because they failed so often to find quality players? Can John and Pete really not hire quality personnel for finding players on offense? I really don't like trading the future for present talent that we don't keep. It's very wasteful and a huge reason we're in the hole we're in.

I also don't like the hiring of Brian Schottenheimer. I understand he's never had a great QB. His offense seems so boring and predictable. He's basically Bevell 2.0. I know Pete's old school and doesn't like uptempo fast passing attacks that are in vogue today, but this stodgy offensive scheming is tired and easily defeated. Schottenheimer seems to lack creativity. Is there really no one else that Pete could have found in college or the pros that is more creative and with a better track record? Seems like he went safe and controlled on offense again.

If we get the defense built back into a number one monster, then we'll likely be ok. I sure would like to see an offensive schemer that is more interesting than what Pete keeps picking. It's straight up boring and at the moment ineffective football on offense. It's kind of sad to watch year in and year out with the flourish Russell provides when he improvises.

[RiverDog]

The Schottenheimer hire was a head scratcher, and thus far, the only thing that I've been impressed with is his increased involvement of the tight end in his offense. The drafting of Will Dissley was a stroke of genius. I have my doubts about him, but we'll have to wait a few more weeks and see if they can work it out. They haven't even played a home game yet, so it's not really fair to evaluate them based on two trips into hostile environments.

I'm trying to keep an objective mind, but I'm going to need to see some ray of hope pretty darn soon.

[NorthHawk]

I'm becoming more convinced the problems on Offense stem from Pete's style of play that he wants from an OC.
That system or philosophy has been passed by and requires a specific type of RB which only come around once in a while.
The chances to find another are very slim.

Considering the style of play Pete wants to play, Schottenheimer is the perfect fit. Unfortunately we need a very creative OC that would invigorate the Offense, but Pete doesn't.
Unless we can find a RB that through force of will, punishing style, and temperament to lift or carry a team on his shoulders, our Offense will never be very good.
Schottenheimer and Schneider are just doing what Pete wants so expect more of the same.

[RiverDog]

I'm becoming more convinced the problems on Offense stem from Pete's style of play that he wants from an OC.
That system or philosophy has been passed by and requires a specific type of RB which only come around once in a while.
The chances to find another are very slim.

Considering the style of play Pete wants to play, Schottenheimer is the perfect fit. Unfortunately we need a very creative OC that would invigorate the Offense, but Pete doesn't.
Unless we can find a RB that through force of will, punishing style, and temperament to lift or carry a team on his shoulders, our Offense will never be very good.
Schottenheimer and Schneider are just doing what Pete wants so expect more of the same.

That's what I'm afraid of. For good or bad, Pete is never going to change, which is why there's a good chance I'll be jumping off the bandwagon if this season really goes south.

[idhawkman]

Seems like our best years are with Pete/Knox style offenses. I'm not giving up on the offense yet, at least not until the oline is complete and healthy. I think they move Sweezy to LG to fill in for Pocic who is out this week and if Britt can't go, he will be the only one missing. I think that's going to be the best line and we'll see if the offense can get going or not.

[NorthHawk]

Knox had a much more balanced Offense.
They were run first, but they could also throw effectively and the OL was competent in both run and pass blocking.

[Hawktawk]

Maybe Bevfool is owed an apology. The problem with the offense is that Russ has been sacked a league high TWELVE times in 2 games. I thought PCs philosophy was a punishing D, run the ball then take the quick strike on the deep ball once the safeties and LBs start peeking in the backfield. Against the Bears they seemed to run the ball on 4 of the first 5 plays or something with great success then inexplicably abandoned the strategy on 3rd and 2 and punted on 4th and 2 in bears territory.

I've been a student of the game since the early 70s and I dont give a flying F what your "philosophy" is. If the opponents pass rush is overwhelming your line and collapsing the pocket you run. Run right at the best pass rusher even if it means some 3 and outs early on. Make them work, let your O linemen deliver the blow instead of being bull rushed on their keister over and over.

Maybe beast is owed an apology since his style of making a hole where a poor blocking scheme provided none or making people whiff in a phone booth sized one was the difference in providing enough offense to couple with a stellar defense and provide championship results.
Either way in spite of the hiccups it seems to me albeit watching through beer goggles that we really aren't that far off from playing offense pretty well. Everything Schottenheimer has called has worked, just not on the same drive very much and Russell's boo boos and turnovers have been killers. The second half performance of our D last week was encouraging holding a very good back to 2.1 YPC and giving us a chance. But the pick 6 on a carbon copy play from the week before in Denver passing to Penny on a dangerous sideline comeback route was the first and biggest nail in the coffin. See brian there's this thing called game film, did you really think you could go to the well two games in a row splitting out your rookie RB and running a comeback route? The DB jumped the route before the snap. A stop and go would have been a TD but hindsight is 20 20.

And the succeeding strip sack was the finisher. The problem with the offense is pressure on Wilson that's causing mistakes by Wilson, why exactly is a lot of reasons but increasingly he's got to look in the mirror as to how to find ways to get the ball out, throw it away, audible out of bad plays etc, secure it when being sacked better.

This week is critical to this current regime IMO. Win and win again by hook or by crook and get to 500 by the first quarter of the season and its doable, not the division most likely but maybe extra games. 0-3 and the die is cast. Mission abort, clear the decks. Start over including deciding if you want to build an offense that suits Wilsons unique point guard style of play or trade him for a king's ransom and try to find the next Pat Mahomes, jared Goff or dare I say Baker Mayfield. Yes I said it.......

[Hawktawk]

Knox had a much more balanced Offense.
They were run first, but they could also throw effectively and the OL was competent in both run and pass blocking.

RIP Ground Chuck. Hes tied with Holmgren as our second best coach ever and he did it first. "play the hand you're dealt" "if you could have won you should have won".His defenses were filthy. In 1984 the man committed to the run saw Curt warner fold up without contact on the brick hard Kingdome carpet and handed Dave Krieg the ball to the tune of 32 TDs and an AFC divisional appearance after a 12-4 record. He won playoff games on the road including the monumental upset of Miami in the orange bowl. His teams were resilient and tough. "prepare well and you will play well, you won't always win but you will always have a chance". Nobody ever felt safe playing most of those Knox coached Hawks teams. He was a lot like good PC except right now it looks like PC isn't playing his cards right.

[HumanCockroach]

Really wish folks would stop insisting that the line can't run block or pass block, simply not what's occurring. Carson can run behind that line, and last year's line, it's painfully clear, and readily visible each and every game he's played.... the preferred drafted back can't, at least not at this point, if the 12 sacks, probably 4 of them on that line, 4 to 6 on poor play selection, rest on Wilson himself. That's certainly not amazing line play, but it's ADEQUATE NFL production, especially when pass rushers faced are taken into account.

I'm not professing it's all Wilson, all Schott, all Carroll, or all anybody, what I'm saying is, they are falling short across the board, and ultimately, the line is PART of that, but not the whole enchilada, and hasn't been for all the years folks been insisting it has been. These issues have been here quite some time, and despite those issues, the staff, QB and players haven't done an adequate job adjusting...

This isn't the first time Carroll has refused to utilize a successful Carson in the run game to give carries to preferred inferior backs ( Rawls, Lacy, etc) this isn't the first time Wilson has held the ball to long or run into sacks looking for a bigger play, this isn't the first time the lines been beat, or the first time Wilson has done the signature back door break.... these are recurring themes, the issue is, the safety net ( defense) jettisoned the pro bowl/ all pro talent that made it manageable....

They haven't replaced anyone on the defense with comparable talent, the desire to "get younger" and "it will be just as good" idea has appeal, but isn't how the NFL works. The insistence that Griffin would be just as good as Sherman, or Clark just as good as Bennett, or McDougal just as good as Chancellor, Jordan just as good as Avril ( if he actually stay healthy), Thompson just as good as Thomas etc isn't how the league works, there's a REASON those guys were not in the position the others were, were backups, the #2, all the scheming and coaching in the world doesn't absolve lack of talent AND depth.

The offense isn't built to carry this team, and the defense, while opportunistic this early in the season, isn't going to be mistaken for the one fielded the last 6 seasons.... they aren't great, it's really that simple.

[c_hawkbob]

RIP Ground Chuck. Hes tied with Holmgren as our second best coach ever and he did it first.

I'll disagree here. I think Pete, Holmes and Chuck are pretty clearly 1,2 and 3 respectively. Furthermore I'll say that there is a LOT more space between 2 & 3 than 1 & 2.

I have always been of the opinion that XL was rightfully* our first SB win, which puts Mike right up there with Pete, in at least that regard.

Too bad we can't Have the Walrus back just to run our offense ... he and Pete could make a pretty unbeatable pair.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'll disagree here. I think Pete, Holmes and Chuck are pretty clearly 1,2 and 3 respectively. Furthermore I'll say that there is a LOT more space between 2 & 3 than 1 & 2.

I have always been of the opinion that XL was rightfully* our first SB win, which puts Mike right up there with Pete, in at least that regard.

Too bad we can't Have the Walrus back just to run our offense ... he and Pete could make a pretty unbeatable pair.

Holmgren and Pete both too controlling for that to work. Holmgren respected a mentor like Bill Walsh and Pete respected Bud grant when they were young up and comers. Those two the same age would be press nightmares waiting to happen.

Though it would be interesting to see what Holmgren could do with a non-traditional QB like Russ. He worked with a fairly non-traditional Brett Favre and built him up into a HoFer. I think he would teach Russell pocket discipline and precision and he'd learn to live with Russ's improv abilities.

[c_hawkbob]

Holmgren and Pete both too controlling for that to work. Holmgren respected a mentor like Bill Walsh and Pete respected Bud grant when they were young up and comers. Those two the same age would be press nightmares waiting to happen.

Though it would be interesting to see what Holmgren could do with a non-traditional QB like Russ. He worked with a fairly non-traditional Brett Favre and built him up into a HoFer. I think he would teach Russell pocket discipline and precision and he'd learn to live with Russ's improv abilities.

It might not work for long and it'd be putting a workload from hell on John, but Ditka and Ryan were not only both control freaks but they hated each other and were still able to make it work for a while ... Pete and Mike would and least be reasonably respectful of each other.

[Aseahawkfan]

It might not work for long and it'd be putting a workload from hell on John, but Ditka and Ryan were not only both control freaks but they hated each other and were still able to make it work for a while ... Pete and Mike would and least be reasonably respectful of each other.

We'd have a two or three Super Bowls right now if Pete were Holmgren's DC or vice versa during their prime years, that's for certain. They're like polar opposites as far as skill sets go. Pete knows defense as well as anyone in the league, but has some real inconsistencies on offense. And Holmgren knew offense as well as anyone in the league, but barely spared a thought to defense.

[RiverDog]

RIP Ground Chuck. Hes tied with Holmgren as our second best coach ever and he did it first.

I'll disagree here. I think Pete, Holmes and Chuck are pretty clearly 1,2 and 3 respectively. Furthermore I'll say that there is a LOT more space between 2 & 3 than 1 & 2.

Agreed. I use a pretty simple method of ranking them, ie the number of Super Bowl teams they produced: Pete 2, Holmgren 1, Knox 0.

Too bad we can't Have the Walrus back just to run our offense ... he and Pete could make a pretty unbeatable pair.

It more than likely would have resulted in a case of two roosters in the same hen house.

Here's a thought: How about Walrus as OC, Pete as DC, and Knox as HC?

[Hawktawk]

Chuck Knox took a team that had never been to the playoffs to the AFC title game his first year, winning 2 road playoff games on the way including the incredible miracle in Miami .

Mike Holmgren never won a single road playoff game in Seattle and his career road record against teams with winning records was astoundingly bad.Matter of fact he never won a single playoff game at all for his first 5 seasons in seattle and after losing at home in the kingdome to a broken Marino after backing into the playoffs as losers of 6 of their last 7 games he missed the playoffs entirely for the next 3 seasons. Holmgren built finesse teams and Knox built smash mouth tough minded teams.

Other than the stellar 2005 NFC champion squad his teams were pretty ordinary at best and as I say lost every road playoff game and managed to lose to the Rams 3 times in the 2004 season including twice at home, the first blowing a 17 point lead with 6 minutes to play.

Even XL after which I was banned from the pI for protesting the officiating theft in too vulgar a manner, look when your HC can't manage the clock before the half or at games end and is screaming at officials on the way to the locker room well sorry, leaders have to lead and he didn't help the situation. Pete Carroll won a super bowl with the most penalized team in the league.

In 2008 every decent receiver on the Hawks went down, like 7 guys if I recall. Holmgren stubbornly clung to his wide open empty backfield WCO theme and refused to adjust. Hass got beat like a rag doll winding up injured and the team went 4-12.various people were quoted off the record as saying he "mailed it in"

As I referenced in 1984 Knox who loathed a wide open passing game adopted one out of necessity and got into the second round of the playoffs when it became clear he wasn't going to be able to run the ball. HIs 1986 team that recovered from a midseason swoon to finish 10-6 and miss the playoffs on a last week bizarre series of tiebreakers beat both the SB contestants that year including the Giants who won and Denver who they crushed 40 something to 10. They were regarded as perhaps his best team at seasons end. I still remember Raiders DB Mike Haynes saying on ESPN "the league is very fortunate the seahawks didn't make the playoffs. I don't think anyone would have been able to handle them". Knox never got to the big one but his run was in my mind at least as impressive if not more so than Holmgrens and he didn't get a hall of fame left tackle handed to him to protect Kriegs blind side and run defenders 20 yards backwards off the line of scrimmage in the run game or he might well have won it all a few times...
Sorry boys its a tie in my Don Quixote world