Carson?

[NorthHawk]

The issue isn't whether or not Earl needs the practice. This issue is how in the hell can he help our new secondary with his non participation?

If a person is to be a mentor, which this defense desperately needs, they need to be at every team function and then some. It's bad enough that he sat out the entire summer camp and preseason, but now he's sitting out practices, too, puting pressure on Pete and Co. to either fine a HOF veteran and make a bad situation worse or set a horrible example for the team by treating him with kid gloves ala Russell Wilson. This is not what it means to "Always Compete".

The time has come for Earl to go.

My understanding was Earl was at the practices, but not participating in the on field exercises. He's still there for other team functions and responsibilities.

[RiverDog]

My understanding was Earl was at the practices, but not participating in the on field exercises. He's still there for other team functions and responsibilities.

My understanding is that the team is considering fining him for his non participation. If it's that bad, then it's a huge problem.

[idhawkman]

My understanding was Earl was at the practices, but not participating in the on field exercises. He's still there for other team functions and responsibilities.

My understanding is that the team is considering fining him for his non participation. If it's that bad, then it's a huge problem.

IMO, the visual/precedent it sets with the team is that bad regardless of anything else.

[HumanCockroach]

Absolutely does, one that should have been avoided prior to training camp. The time for Seattle to move was then, not now, either in a trade scenario, or by renegotiating that contract as they have with numerous franchise core players.

[RiverDog]

Absolutely does, one that should have been avoided prior to training camp. The time for Seattle to move was then, not now, either in a trade scenario, or by renegotiating that contract as they have with numerous franchise core players.

It's hard to tell whether it could have been avoided or not. We do not know what Earl's demands were, and it was rumored that the only thing we were being offered in return for a trade was a 3rd round pick. Earl had a huge hand in starting rumors that he wanted out and that his preference was the Cowboys, which limited his marketability. As the players are so fond of saying, this is a business and Earl was a valuable commodity to the Seahawks.

But regardless of who's fault it was, it's all water under the bridge at this point, so the question is how much longer are both sides going to have to put up with this death by a thousand cuts?

[HumanCockroach]

Unfortunately, Seattle put themselves in this position with the refusal to even discuss a contract extension.... ( do they even Know what his demands are RD? what I've read and heard was Seattle refused to even LISTEN to them, much less negotiate them) there's no "win" for Seattle in this situation, zero, they pay him, that look weak to players on the team, they trade him ( and to be clear, what they can get for him continues to plummet with every day that this situation drags out) they run the risk of fracturing the team, and making it clear that core players, matter not at all, not to mention the entire Carroll/ Seahawks philosophy about winning forever, always compete etc. Ultimately, they are screwed and they did it to themselves.

[RiverDog]

Unfortunately, Seattle put themselves in this position with the refusal to even discuss a contract extension.... ( do they even Know what his demands are RD? what I've read and heard was Seattle refused to even LISTEN to them, much less negotiate them) there's no "win" for Seattle in this situation, zero, they pay him, that look weak to players on the team, they trade him ( and to be clear, what they can get for him continues to plummet with every day that this situation drags out) they run the risk of fracturing the team, and making it clear that core players, matter not at all, not to mention the entire Carroll/ Seahawks philosophy about winning forever, always compete etc. Ultimately, they are screwed and they did it to themselves.

If you have credible information on what Seattle knew about Earl's demands, please share it with us.

But I agree with you that this is now a no win situation, which is why I am saying that we need to cut our losses now. Prolonging it will only worsen the situation. There are irreconcilable differences between the two sides. It's over.

I want Earl to still be friendly to us fans and the team in general. I want to be able to see him come back for team functions, raise the 12th man flag, participate in parades in our house with Kam, Beast, Wags, Bennett, Sherman, Avril, Pete, and all the other Hawks that have given us our only Lombardi and contributed to the best period of Seahawk football ever. There are incidents in sports in the past when issues between teams and a star player left deep scars that decades failed to heal. I do not want this to be one of them. He wants out, so please grant him his wish.

[HumanCockroach]

You keep saying what he wants, if you have credible information please share it. Lol...

I'm not going to cycle through all the Thomas articles since last year to find the discussion on Seattle's refusal to negotiate. I ain't no secretary.

[NorthHawk]

From what I've read, the suggestion of what he wanted at one time was to be the highest paid S in the NFL.
That means that KC is not a credible trading partner. I doubt any team would look at their roster and say we
have to have the 2 best Safeties in the NFL to win a championship.
It would also mean he would cost $13 - $14 million/year, but I don't know if he and his agent have discussed taking less considering the market for Safeties lately.
The Falcons have now lost both starting Safties, and ET knows Quinn and his Defense so, Maybe them?

[HumanCockroach]

Certainly possible, and enormous boon to their suspect clients.

Nobody really knows what he wants or is willing to take at this point, it's all speculation, as Seattle has refused to broach it to this point, and other teams aren't allowed to talk to him. If I was him, I would indeed want to be the top paid safety in the league, but at this point for all we actually know, he could be asking for a 5 yr veteran minimum commitment...

Until they sign him, or another team, whatever he's asking for remains unknown. I certainly can say that the money invested in Dickson, Lockett and Brown could have covered the entirety and then some. Hell just Dickson and Lockett.

Seattle had the ability to sign him, no matter how outrageous his demands were ( doesn't mean they SHOULD have, just that refusing to discuss it is ridiculously stupid) the ability was there, the refusal to discuss it IMHO is the "disrespect and lack of appreciation" Thomas continues to reference. In that respect I 100% agree with him. While I don't agree with much of what he's done, despite not feeling the need to judge other men's personal decisions about their lives, futures and business, I can absolutely understand that feeling. Might as well have cut him, because refusing to talk sends singular message, and that is it.

[politicalfootball]

Carson kept us in the first two games and got us a winning in the third. We should ride this horse the whole season as he develops into a great RB. Our OL is improved on the run and hopefully will continue to improve. Russell Wilson can simply hand it off to Carson and have a break. We have some important division games coming up in the near future and they are important to win. I am excited for the rest of the season this year.

Go Seahawks!!! Beat Cardinals

[HumanCockroach]

Anyone else not shocked that Carroll and co went with the "cautious" approach deactivating Carson so they could get 1 yard Penny ( their "chosen" one) the start and extended unearned playing time? Alex Collins the second.... bounce, bounce tackle returns....

I'm certainly not, not in the least. Maybe they thought he was haaaarrrddd from practice. Smdh.

[RiverDog]

Anyone else not shocked that Carroll and co went with the "cautious" approach deactivating Carson so they could get 1 yard Penny ( their "chosen" one) the start and extended unearned playing time? Alex Collins the second.... bounce, bounce tackle returns....

I'm certainly not, not in the least. Maybe they thought he was haaaarrrddd from practice. Smdh.

Except that Davis got over twice as many carries.

[HumanCockroach]

Yup, as I said in another thread, pleasantly surprised, maybe they are beginning to re learn that wins are more important than draft evaluations. I'm hopeful that's the case...

Certainly not much reason to see Penny anywhere but STs for the foreseeable future.

[RiverDog]

Yup, as I said in another thread, pleasantly surprised, maybe they are beginning to re learn that wins are more important than draft evaluations. I'm hopeful that's the case...

Certainly not much reason to see Penny anywhere but STs for the foreseeable future.

Agreed. At this point, he's 3rd on the depth chart.

[idhawkman]

Except that Davis got over twice as many carries.

...And he started. Not Penny.

[NorthHawk]

From what little I've seen of Penny, it seems to me at this stage of the season that he does better from the I formation and being deeper in the backfield.
I don't know if it's just because the NFL is a lot faster and he hasn't yet adjusted or if he will always need that style of Offense to excel, but he did flash
a little yesterday.

[idhawkman]

From what little I've seen of Penny, it seems to me at this stage of the season that he does better from the I formation and being deeper in the backfield.
I don't know if it's just because the NFL is a lot faster and he hasn't yet adjusted or if he will always need that style of Offense to excel, but he did flash
a little yesterday.

I hadn't noticed to be honest but I'll watch for it. I know Lynch and Alexander always had good FBs to follow (Strong and MRob).

[HumanCockroach]

Unfortunately, FBs don't really fit into the Seahawks model, and haven't for quite some time. Which is truly odd, as they had quite a bit of success when they were playing FBs more often than 3 to 7 plays a game...

[obiken]

Unfortunately, FBs don't really fit into the Seahawks model, and haven't for quite some time. Which is truly odd, as they had quite a bit of success when they were playing FBs more often than 3 to 7 plays a game...

Can you, Cbob, or River, explain to me why they did under Holmy and not PC? I thought all NFL teams used a pro set. Remember Mack Strong, Dan Dornick, or the immortal John L Williams?

[RiverDog]

Can you, Cbob, or River, explain to me why they did under Holmy and not PC? I thought all NFL teams used a pro set. Remember Mack Strong, Dan Dornick, or the immortal John L Williams?

Teams run a lot more shotgun formations than they ever did in the past. With the quarterback 5 yards or so behind center, it doesn't allow for enough space for a fullback-running back tandem. Plus they've gone to sets with more 3 and 4 wideouts, and a lot of teams like keeping at least one tight end in line in order to help against edge pass rushers. It's easier to block Von Miller or Kahlil Mack on the LOS than it is for a FB to wait until he gets a running start, and the mere presence of a TE lining up next to the tackle makes for a longer route to the QB. So as a result, you now see teams with a one back or empty backfield set except for short yardage and some first down plays where they're pretty much declaring that they're going to run the ball.

That's my take, anyway, but I'd be interested to hear Cbob and the others comment.

[idhawkman]

Unfortunately, FBs don't really fit into the Seahawks model, and haven't for quite some time. Which is truly odd, as they had quite a bit of success when they were playing FBs more often than 3 to 7 plays a game...

Can you, Cbob, or River, explain to me why they did under Holmy and not PC? I thought all NFL teams used a pro set. Remember Mack Strong, Dan Dornick, or the immortal John L Williams?

Don't forget MikeRob for Lynch. I do seem to remember that was with PC and that's when we won the SB. The next year it was the kid who was deaf and made it back to the SB.

[RiverDog]

Don't forget MikeRob for Lynch. I do seem to remember that was with PC and that's when we won the SB. The next year it was the kid who was deaf and made it back to the SB.

The deaf guy was Derrick Coleman. But both him and MikeRob played relatively sparingly compared to previous fullbacks like Mac Strong. Teams just don't use very many two back sets anymore, and IMO it all has to do with mitigating the pass rush. Russell would get killed if he had to play under center as often as Hass did when he had Walter Jones to cover his back side.

A while back, we talked about how the colleges, with their spread offenses, just don't develop offensive linemen, particularly tackles, like they used to. This might have something to do with teams shying away from QB's playing under center and/or two back sets.

[NorthHawk]

I think we haven't used a FB as much is because we've thrown more.
It makes the FB less important.

[RiverDog]

I think we haven't used a FB as much is because we've thrown more.
It makes the FB less important.

That's true as far as our use of the FB goes. For 3 years, starting in 2012, coinciding with the arrival of Russell Wilson, we threw the ball less than 50% of the time. In 2015, our percentage went up to 53% and 59% in 2016 and 2017.

But for the last 15 years, the run-pass ratio for the league hasn't changed very much, with pass happy teams throwing the ball about 65% of the time and the most run heavy teams passing at or slightly below 50%. Here's an interesting site:

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/p ... 2018-02-05

[idhawkman]

It would be interesting if a team would go retro with a three back set and see how the opposing defenses would defend it.

[NorthHawk]

It would be interesting if a team would go retro with a three back set and see how the opposing defenses would defend it.

You mean like the Wishbone or Single Wing?
It might confuse some of the older players that hadn't seen it since Pop Warner.

[idhawkman]

You mean like the Wishbone or Single Wing?
It might confuse some of the older players that hadn't seen it since Pop Warner.

Both of those along with the Full backfield where 2 HBs and a FB are in a straight line behind the QB. Following two blockers into the hole might be something interesting to watch again.

[c_hawkbob]

Colorado Buffalo's won a national championship in the 90's with the "I-Bone" offense, which lines a halfback to the right of and between the FB and tailback:



It's almost like a I formation with an H-back lined up to the strong side and in the backfield ... it could be a strong running formation for a short yardage situation in the pros.

[politicalfootball]

Carson kept us in the Cowboys game he is really looking good out there picking up those 1st downs . I hope he blows up in the Rams game.

[HumanCockroach]

Three back sets have issues at the NFL level, simply to much speed, and you are condensing the field for the defense... that said, there's been some various short yardage sets like that, but as a regular formation, doubtful it would be very successful.

Creating creases or gaps in the defense is the major goal in any offenses philosophy, this actually creates the opposite effect.

[obiken]

Teams run a lot more shotgun formations than they ever did in the past. With the quarterback 5 yards or so behind center, it doesn't allow for enough space for a fullback-running back tandem. Plus they've gone to sets with more 3 and 4 wideouts, and a lot of teams like keeping at least one tight end in line in order to help against edge pass rushers. It's easier to block Von Miller or Kahlil Mack on the LOS than it is for a FB to wait until he gets a running start, and the mere presence of a TE lining up next to the tackle makes for a longer route to the QB. So as a result, you now see teams with a one back or empty backfield set except for short yardage and some first down plays where they're pretty much declaring that they're going to run the ball.

That's my take, anyway, but I'd be interested to hear Cbob and the others comment.

Thanks man!

[idhawkman]

Three back sets have issues at the NFL level, simply to much speed, and you are condensing the field for the defense... that said, there's been some various short yardage sets like that, but as a regular formation, doubtful it would be very successful.

Creating creases or gaps in the defense is the major goal in any offenses philosophy, this actually creates the opposite effect.

You're probably right on this one. I may be a little nostalgic and wishing for the old days when football was a rough and tumble game without flags on every other down.

[RiverDog]

"Three back sets have issues at the NFL level, simply to much speed, and you are condensing the field for the defense... that said, there's been some various short yardage sets like that, but as a regular formation, doubtful it would be very successful.

Creating creases or gaps in the defense is the major goal in any offenses philosophy, this actually creates the opposite effect."

You're probably right on this one. I may be a little nostalgic and wishing for the old days when football was a rough and tumble game without flags on every other down.

I agree with Roach. That's one of the reasons why you see teams splitting out their tight ends and running backs more often, as it spreads out the defense.

I also agree with Idahawk about all the flags and will add that in addition to slowing the game down, it makes it more complicated and confusing, not only for novice and first time fans, but for casual fans as well. Other sports don't have nearly as many significant rule changes as does the NFL.

[HumanCockroach]

Just another exceptional game from a young and exciting bellcow NFL back.

[obiken]

Just another exceptional game from a young and exciting bellcow NFL back.

My question is to all you guys, is IF we knew that Davis and Carson were going to be as good as they are, why draft Penny? And if not, why not?

[Aseahawkfan]

My question is to all you guys, is IF we knew that Davis and Carson were going to be as good as they are, why draft Penny? And if not, why not?

Doubt we knew. I wouldn't crown anyone yet. Kitchen sink approach is often how John likes to work, which is why he prefers picks over high picks. He'd rather have three guys competing for a job than one guy given the job due to draft status. A handful of good games means nothing in this league other than you get the chance to continue until you can't. We'll see if Penny has the drive to take his job back. Right now, we need as many RBs as possible until a few of them take the job and keep it for the long-term.

[Hawktawk]

Funny how having great backs suddenly makes the line look better.I've said it before, Carson looks like a young AP. I really like Davis style as well and I'm not down on Penney either. Dude has another gear, just needs time to adjust to the speed of the game at this level and he will contribute. I love this balanced running attack.

[RiverDog]

I mentioned this in the game thread, but if the trend of the first 5 games continues throughout the season and Penny ends the season behind Carson and Davis, is there any chance that we might trade Penny?

[Oly]

I mentioned this in the game thread, but if the trend of the first 5 games continues throughout the season and Penny ends the season behind Carson and Davis, is there any chance that we might trade Penny?

Zero chance, IMO. Given injuries in this league and the value of first round contracts and the 5th year option for the team, it's hard to see why they'd unload him this early, especially considering they'd get very little in return.