A Peaceful Transition

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree, but I do think that every generation has always had these types of complaints about the succeeding generation. I know my dad thought that my generation was infected with a bunch of drug addicted, long haired, dirt foot hippies.

I'm talking about the earlier generation is the one I miss. My grandparents, not my parents. Them stoic, community-minded, church going old folks who fought WW2 and survived The Great Depression. That group. That group was the last to have that American masculinity and toughness that other nations learned couldn't be defeated. The 60s was terrible for this nation's culture and identity. That group tossed out the baby with the bathwater as far as I'm concerned ushering in the drug era. I believe you could show quite clearly that the drug culture we see now started with the 60s drug culture movement. I bet you could also clearly show if we had statistics dating back far enough, it also started the erosion of the family culture of America.

Even the women seemed kinder and more motherly before that 60s generation. They helped take care of each other's children and made cookies for people during the holidays. They made sure their family's came together around the dinner table. Cooking dinner to them wasn't some form of social control or toxic masculinity, it was a way to show love to your family, appreciation, and bring them all together to enjoy time together.

That's the generation I miss. Not my parents, but that World War 2 and earlier generation. I wish we had those values again absent the racism.

The "safe harbor" deadline is Dec. 8th. That's when states that have contested elections have to have settled their issues. It's the deadline that the 2000 election was up against and why SCOTUS stepped in when it did. If all the state's elections have been certified on the 8th, then there is nothing legally that anyone can do about it. The 14th is when the actual vote is taken:

Federal law (3 U.S. Code § 5) frees a state from further challenge if it settles legal disputes and certifies its results at least six days before the Electoral College meeting (Dec. 8th), which occurs this year on Dec. 14.

If the electoral vote was within a couple of electors, then the 14th would be more interesting due to the possibility of a faithless elector(s). But with Biden expected to have a 36-vote lead, the odds of enough faithless electors defecting that it would flip the election is pretty remote. What occurs on the 14th is a mere formality.

I think you have that reversed myself. The "safe harbor" deadline is a formality. The electoral college vote is the final official vote on who is president with the electors expected to do what they have sworn to do. If they do not do this, then problems could arise regardless of the aforementioned deadline. Once everyone sees the electors cast their votes as expected, the whole "Trump might try to launch a coup" or "Trump is looking to install faithless electors" should end.

Any other year none of this would matter and it would all be decided. But this is Trump. I read the left leaning stories talking about "faithless electors" and Trump launching a coup and the Trump faithful believing the electoral collage will save them from a Biden presidency. Once that vote is cast, all the stupid will hopefully, finally stop.

December 14. The left will have one less story to tell about faithless electors and the Trump faithful will finally realize he lost and that nothing barring a real Civil War or military coup will change anything. So that's my date in this stupid time.

[RiverDog]

I'm talking about the earlier generation is the one I miss. My grandparents, not my parents. Them stoic, community-minded, church going old folks who fought WW2 and survived The Great Depression. That group. That group was the last to have that American masculinity and toughness that other nations learned couldn't be defeated. The 60s was terrible for this nation's culture and identity. That group tossed out the baby with the bathwater as far as I'm concerned ushering in the drug era. I believe you could show quite clearly that the drug culture we see now started with the 60s drug culture movement. I bet you could also clearly show if we had statistics dating back far enough, it also started the erosion of the family culture of America.

Even the women seemed kinder and more motherly before that 60s generation. They helped take care of each other's children and made cookies for people during the holidays. They made sure their family's came together around the dinner table. Cooking dinner to them wasn't some form of social control or toxic masculinity, it was a way to show love to your family, appreciation, and bring them all together to enjoy time together.

That's the generation I miss. Not my parents, but that World War 2 and earlier generation. I wish we had those values again absent the racism.

I agree with you for the most part, but that generation had its flaws, in particular, their racism. However, at least in my dad's case, they matured.

I think you have that reversed myself. The "safe harbor" deadline is a formality. The electoral college vote is the final official vote on who is president with the electors expected to do what they have sworn to do. If they do not do this, then problems could arise regardless of the aforementioned deadline. Once everyone sees the electors cast their votes as expected, the whole "Trump might try to launch a coup" or "Trump is looking to install faithless electors" should end.

Any other year none of this would matter and it would all be decided. But this is Trump. I read the left leaning stories talking about "faithless electors" and Trump launching a coup and the Trump faithful believing the electoral collage will save them from a Biden presidency. Once that vote is cast, all the stupid will hopefully, finally stop.

December 14. The left will have one less story to tell about faithless electors and the Trump faithful will finally realize he lost and that nothing barring a real Civil War or military coup will change anything. So that's my date in this stupid time.

The only hope Trump has of reversing the outcome is through the courts. Even he admits that. The end of the road for any litigious action is Dec. 8th.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/1 ... tly-loyal/

Hi RD a little flesh on the bone when talking about this terrific staff surrounding fuctopolous. You cant make it up. This is utterly dangerous to national security. "we only hire the best and the brightest"

[RiverDog]

https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/11/13/in-trumps-final-days-a-30-year-old-aide-purges-officials-seen-as-insufficiently-loyal/

Hi RD a little flesh on the bone when talking about this terrific staff surrounding fuctopolous. You cant make it up. This is utterly dangerous to national security. "we only hire the best and the brightest"

Gosh, Hawktalk. What are you going to do come January 20th? You're going to be bored as all get out with no Trump to fret about and football winding down.

[NorthHawk]

The purging of senior level bureaucrats before an election is finalized is usually a sign of an impending coup attempt.
I doubt that it will happen, but it does show Trump as an autocrat and not a believer in democracy. These "settling of
scores" is a serious statement by someone desperately wanting to remain in power and may be a sign that he might
attempt to make some type of illegal or undemocratic move. With Trump always pushing the boundaries and not caring
about convention or tradition if it's not codified in law or constitution, some unexpected options may still be available
to him. We just don't expect any to come about.

[Hawktawk]

Gosh, Hawktalk. What are you going to do come January 20th? You're going to be bored as all get out with no Trump to fret about and football winding down.

I’m not sure what I’ll be doing . Celebrating hopefully but who knows. Purging of top military officials is a problem. Having a 30 year old hatchet man personell Director lopping off heads of career public servants caught in unparreleled employee churn is destabilizing lunacy during amateur hour. John Kelley has called Trumps actions “ potentially disastrous “ why should a lame duck risk us all with disaster ?

Is he fit to be commander in chief or not ? If yes why ? If not why don’t you care ?

[c_hawkbob]

Is he fit to be commander in chief or not ? If yes why ? If not why don’t you care ?

I'm pretty interested in the answer to that one myself; Riv, just what is it gonna take for this petulant child to do on his way out to make you concerned about what could happen between now and when he's gone? Surely bad actors around the world see us as at our most vulnerable right now while he is throwing these tantrums and getting rid of all the adults in the situation room to be replaced with spineless yes men ... why do you not see that as even a little concerning?

[RiverDog]

Is he fit to be commander in chief or not ? If yes why ? If not why don’t you care ?

I'm pretty interested in the answer to that one myself; Riv, just what is it gonna take for this petulant child to do on his way out to make you concerned about what could happen between now and when he's gone? Surely bad actors around the world see us as at our most vulnerable right now while he is throwing these tantrums and getting rid of all the adults in the situation room to be replaced with spineless yes men ... why do you not see that as even a little concerning?

I'm going to start by reciting to you my favorite prayer, with the notation that I am not a deeply religious soul:

God grant me the Courage to change the things that I can, the Serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, and the Wisdom to tell the difference between the two.

It's not that I don't care or that I am not concerned. I was concerned enough that for the first time in my life, I voted for a Democrat for POTUS. I have spent the past 4.5 years expressing my total and complete disgust with Donald Trump and nearly everything about him. Even my wife, who had never voted in her life, with my encouragement voted in this election. I made a special trip to a drop box to make sure our ballots got counted before the election, and double checked online to make sure they were accepted. On the morning after election night, I was up at 1:00am (go back and check the times on my posts) because I couldn't sleep as I was so anxious to see the results as they came in. I spent most of the time between 5:00pm on the 3rd and 8pm on the 4th channel surfing between various coverages of the election results.

But now that the election is over, there is absolutely nothing I can do to change the situation so I'm not going to raise my blood pressure by worrying about these death throes that Donald Trump is going through. Some of them I view as comical, and it's actually doing my heart some good to see that egotistical POS have to swallow what the voters have told him.

In some ways, Donald Trump is a lot like Richard Sherman. He's taken up residence inside a lot of people's heads.

[Aseahawkfan]

It is not about Trump. It's about not believing that Trump is more powerful than America. That he is somehow a dictator capable of overpowering or overriding our system of government. It's about not believing Trump is smarter or more powerful than our intelligence agencies or our military. That's what this is about. I don't care who is in office. They are not stronger than America and its institutions which have survived far worse than Trump.

I don't care if the lot of you who consume the left wing news like it's truth. Go for it. Plenty of right wing people consume the right wing news and believe it is the truth. All I care about is what happens in the real world and in the real world Trump lost the presidency and he's going to be gone in January. He's not going to somehow ruin the nation in a few months just like he didn't in 4 years.

Our American system is stronger than Trump and it works. I do not believe Trump is some kind of Hitler-like figure who can overpower and render 240+ years of America gone. Trump is a narcissistic ass who is not actually strong at all. I will not give him status that so many of you give him as some kind of American dictator or that other trash. He's just some blowhard, narcissistic rich guy who won office and talks a lot of smack and stupid. If you all want to give this guy some kind of mastermind that tricked America status where he's been installed by Russia or is the most corrupt president in history absent the facts to prove it like illegal wars started, black budget CIA operations, drone killings, or whatever other metric we like to use to measure corruption in a president, then prove it. I've seen plenty of corrupt behavior by presidents that is documented and proven by both Democratic and Republican regimes within my lifetime.

As far as I'm concerned Trump is a media-manufactured tyrant who is just a blowhard narcissist full of himself who likes to posture, but isn't powerful, isn't particularly smart, and is nothing more than an extraordinary salesman who sold a huge part of America on a vision they wanted to be true.

Trump's about to be gone. All he's going to be remember for at this point is screwing up the coronavirus response. That's his biggest failure as a president. He's the mouthiest, most vulgar, and ridiculous president in American history. But a tyrant or any more corrupt than many of his predecessors? Nope. Just dumber and less experienced at covering things up. As far as dangerous men who have occupied the presidency, I would put Trump on the lower end of that spectrum.

December 14 one more Trump myth dies as the electoral college sends the clear message he's all done. Then January 20 he leaves as he came in, talking a lot of windbag trash as he becomes a footnote in American history.

America works. American intelligence and institutions are stronger than Trump. That sorry narcissistic windbag is not the danger to this country so many have claimed, nor is he any kind of messiah or savior for the right. I still can't believe he achieved this kind of status in the minds of Americans for and against him. Years down the line when Americans think of this era, they should be embarrassed they gave this clown the status they did, both the right and left.

[RiverDog]

It is not about Trump. It's about not believing that Trump is more powerful than America. That he is somehow a dictator capable of overpowering or overriding our system of government. It's about not believing Trump is smarter or more powerful than our intelligence agencies or our military. That's what this is about. I don't care who is in office. They are not stronger than America and its institutions which have survived far worse than Trump.

I don't care if the lot of you who consume the left wing news like it's truth. Go for it. Plenty of right wing people consume the right wing news and believe it is the truth. All I care about is what happens in the real world and in the real world Trump lost the presidency and he's going to be gone in January. He's not going to somehow ruin the nation in a few months just like he didn't in 4 years.

Our American system is stronger than Trump and it works. I do not believe Trump is some kind of Hitler-like figure who can overpower and render 240+ years of America gone. Trump is a narcissistic ass who is not actually strong at all. I will not give him status that so many of you give him as some kind of American dictator or that other trash. He's just some blowhard, narcissistic rich guy who won office and talks a lot of smack and stupid. If you all want to give this guy some kind of mastermind that tricked America status where he's been installed by Russia or is the most corrupt president in history absent the facts to prove it like illegal wars started, black budget CIA operations, drone killings, or whatever other metric we like to use to measure corruption in a president, then prove it. I've seen plenty of corrupt behavior by presidents that is documented and proven by both Democratic and Republican regimes within my lifetime.

As far as I'm concerned Trump is a media-manufactured tyrant who is just a blowhard narcissist full of himself who likes to posture, but isn't powerful, isn't particularly smart, and is nothing more than an extraordinary salesman who sold a huge part of America on a vision they wanted to be true.

Trump's about to be gone. All he's going to be remember for at this point is screwing up the coronavirus response. That's his biggest failure as a president. He's the mouthiest, most vulgar, and ridiculous president in American history. But a tyrant or any more corrupt than many of his predecessors? Nope. Just dumber and less experienced at covering things up. As far as dangerous men who have occupied the presidency, I would put Trump on the lower end of that spectrum.

December 14 one more Trump myth dies as the electoral college sends the clear message he's all done. Then January 20 he leaves as he came in, talking a lot of windbag trash as he becomes a footnote in American history.

America works. American intelligence and institutions are stronger than Trump. That sorry narcissistic windbag is not the danger to this country so many have claimed, nor is he any kind of messiah or savior for the right. I still can't believe he achieved this kind of status in the minds of Americans for and against him. Years down the line when Americans think of this era, they should be embarrassed they gave this clown the status they did, both the right and left.

That's pretty much where I'm at, too. Our intelligence community and military aren't going to suddenly collapse because Trump is having a temper tantrum. I'm a lot more pissed that the Seahawks lost than I am about anything that Trump has done in the past 10 days.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's pretty much where I'm at, too. Our intelligence community and military aren't going to suddenly collapse because Trump is having a temper tantrum. I'm a lot more pissed that the Seahawks lost than I am about anything that Trump has done in the past 10 days.

I'm tired of listening to this garbage from both sides. I know people on this forum apparently don't see it much, but the loons on the right are just as bad as I5 and Hawktawk.

I keep hearing Biden is going to destroy the country, take away our liberty, and the progressive left led by AOC and her squad are making a list of Trump supporters the plan to punish and treat like McCarthy did Communists. One of my friends is comparing Biden to the Devil and claiming he is incredibly corrupt because of Hunter. Then there is all the voter fraud talk. And all of it is backed up by so called legitimate sources with lots of statistics, stories, and studies. Just like the left wing media claims they have supporting evidence for their rubbish stories.

No way to have a reasonable political discourse with each side believing the other is some kind of historically bad group of people with this reality TV star built up to such ridiculous levels that he's either the greatest president in history or the worst. It's ridiculous.

[mykc14]

No way to have a reasonable political discourse with each side believing the other is some kind of historically bad group of people with this reality TV star built up to such ridiculous levels that he's either the greatest president in history or the worst. It's ridiculous.

I think it's even beyond that level. Now he's either the best human ever to live or the worst. The Messiah or the anti-Chirst. 6 months from now we'll have a new president, everything will be open because of the vaccine, and the Seahawks will be Super Bowl champs. All will be right in the world and the news will have nothing to report on.

[I-5]

6 months from now we'll have a new president, everything will be open because of the vaccine, and the Seahawks will be Super Bowl champs. All will be right in the world and the news will have nothing to report on.

Amen, but I know you're being facetious. Of those unlikely scenarios, the Seahawks would have been the best bet to come true, but...

[RiverDog]

I think it's even beyond that level. Now he's either the best human ever to live or the worst. The Messiah or the anti-Chirst. 6 months from now we'll have a new president, everything will be open because of the vaccine, and the Seahawks will be Super Bowl champs. All will be right in the world and the news will have nothing to report on.

Did I detect a note of sarcasm in some of those remarks? I'm not going to be so naïve to think that all our problems will suddenly disappear on Jan. 20th, but I do think that by next summer that the country will be measurably better on all fronts than we have been this year. But you're absolutely right about the varying degrees of POV's regarding Donald Trump. That part for sure won't disappear on Jan. 20th.

And just a note regarding vaccines. Moderna just released the preliminary findings on their vaccine's Stage 3 trial, and like Pfizer's vaccine, it was shown to be 90+% effective with very few side effects. The results of both still need to be peer reviewed, but it seems likely that we'll have 2 vaccines approved by the end of the month and distribution beginning before the end of the year.

I know that a lot of you are skeptical of vaccines, but my wife and I are planning on getting one as soon as they become available. I've taken scores of vaccines over the course of my 66 years on this planet, I've been under general anesthesia a number of times, and I've never experienced anything more than a little soreness at the injection site, so considering that over 80,000 participants in the trials didn't experience a reaction to the vaccine, I don't know why my reaction to this one would be any different. The risk of getting seriously ill from COVID, or my causing someone else to get sick, is a lot higher than a severe reaction from a vaccine.

[Hawktawk]

I'm tired of listening to this garbage from both sides. I know people on this forum apparently don't see it much, but the loons on the right are just as bad as I5 and Hawktawk.

I keep hearing Biden is going to destroy the country, take away our liberty, and the progressive left led by AOC and her squad are making a list of Trump supporters the plan to punish and treat like McCarthy did Communists. One of my friends is comparing Biden to the Devil and claiming he is incredibly corrupt because of Hunter. Then there is all the voter fraud talk. And all of it is backed up by so called legitimate sources with lots of statistics, stories, and studies. Just like the left wing media claims they have supporting evidence for their rubbish stories.

No way to have a reasonable political discourse with each side believing the other is some kind of historically bad group of people with this reality TV star built up to such ridiculous levels that he's either the greatest president in history or the worst. It's ridiculous.

What is "bad" about believing as military experts do, that Trump is a dangerous and destabilizing threat to america, never more so as a lunatic fringe lame duck? Is John Kelley Garbage when he says Trump's actions are "potentially disastrous"?. I believe John Kelly. I believe Jim Mattis. HR MCmaster. I believe the intelligence experts that fear this man will be a security threat as long as he lives and breathes even after he hopefully leaves office due to his dire financial straits and entanglements world wide.If having a problem with this psycho in charge of and trying to dismantle his top military brass makes me "bad" well Im bad. As for the left wing media that reports it they are not ventriloquists. Its the free and ADVERSARIAL media that's always brought the darkness of presidential administrations to light. Its not fake news.

And you always forget I'm not on the left. I'm a former lifelong republican now an independent who has never ascribed to the far left. I'm a patriotic intelligent observant american with a good judge of character who has opposed this apostasy from day one no matter whether there was an R on him, no matter his ideology or that of his enablers. I hate the most hateable despicable person ever in the office, surely the most unstable and dangerous.

I'm a rare breath of fresh air in america. A man with a burden for america and a clear understanding what we should find acceptable out of our leaders in terms of character and fitness for the office.Even though Im the white 60+ no college educated republican yee-haw that was right in his wheelhouse demographically. that's not bad. That makes me what's right with america.

[RiverDog]

And you always forget I'm not on the left. I'm a former lifelong republican now an independent who has never ascribed to the far left.

You haven't made that distinction very clear at all. You've sworn off Fox News and lined up with the libs on just about every issue for the past 4 years, from SCOTUS appointments to control of the Senate. You openly want to nuke anyone within spitting distance of Donald Trump.

I'm not going to label you or anyone else in here, but I can certainly see how others can get a certain impression about your political leanings.

I'm a rare breath of fresh air in america.

A little Trump style self adulation.

[Hawktawk]

You haven't made that distinction very clear at all. You've sworn off Fox News and lined up with the libs on just about every issue for the past 4 years, from SCOTUS appointments to control of the Senate. You openly want to nuke anyone within spitting distance of Donald Trump.



"yes I do. The trump party can go to hell.The republican party doesn't exist anymore. Its a cult.Show me where I opposed Gorsuch one minute. The drunk rapist sure , it was a travesty and Ill proudly stand behind my opinion till my dying day.And confirming a justice with something like 30 million having voted was just despicable regardless of my thought on judges. Immigration reform is fine but ripping away kids hundreds of which cannot be reunited is fascist racist stuff. I could go on. not much republican the last 4 years except slash and burn the environment and hand out tax cuts for the rich that I saw, dog whistles for racist to this day. Executive orders Biden will rip up day one since trump couldn't get anything done with both branches of the congress for 2 years. And again, it doesn't matter when its the Trump party. No amount of legislation I might agree with makes Trump acceptable as the leader of the free world."

I'm not going to label you or anyone else in here, but I can certainly see how others can get a certain impression about your political leanings.


"Unquestionably Trump has opened my eyes. If the party of moral authority, limited government, fiscal responsibility etc handed me this loose cannon and despicable human being Im outta here permanently and Im definitely going to reconsider everything Faux news etc has brainwashed me to believe over decades. I'm a better man by far for it having thrown off the anchor of ideology that leads to horrible leaders who promise us what we want to have.
I'm a rare breath of fresh air in america."

A little Trump style self adulation.

Really. Get real. I truly am and when 70+ million want another 4 years of this there need to be a lot more of me.Its despicable comparing me with trump in any way other than maybe mental illness. Im highly so and medicated and im perfectly fine compared to him. Ask his sister. Nice peaceful transition so far BTW.SCARY

[RiverDog]

Really. Get real. I truly am and when 70+ million want another 4 years of this there need to be a lot more of me.Its despicable comparing me with trump in any way other than maybe mental illness. Im highly so and medicated and im perfectly fine compared to him. Ask his sister. Nice peaceful transition so far BTW.SCARY

Sorry there, my friend, and I mean that sincerely. But I gave ASF some grief when he started bragging about his insights on the election so I felt obligated to do the same to you when you started bragging about your opinions as being a "breath of fresh air". And yes, those attributes are shared by none other than Donald Trump, who tells us about his having a breath of fresh air on a daily basis.

I'll give you a pass and an apology on Gorsch, but would you care to guess how many conservatives would believe the line sold by liberals that Kavanaugh is a drunken rapist? The Dems on the Senate judiciary committee never came anywhere close to suggesting anything of the sort. I don't even think AOC would go that far with her characterization of him. And just so I don't mis quote you, did you ever speak out with the same degree of outrage when Joe Biden was hit with an even more serious, more recent, and more documented charge of sexual assault as you did with Kavanaugh? If you didn't, then it's a pretty good indicator of a liberal POV. I know for a fact that you never referred to Biden as a drunken rapist.

All I'm saying is that the stances you have taken could easily be misinterpreted as having come from a liberal.

[Hawktawk]

Sorry there, my friend, and I mean that sincerely. But I gave ASF some grief when he started bragging about his insights on the election so I felt obligated to do the same to you when you started bragging about your opinions as being a "breath of fresh air". And yes, those attributes are shared by none other than Donald Trump, who tells us about his having a breath of fresh air on a daily basis.

I'll give you a pass and an apology on Gorsch, but would you care to guess how many conservatives would believe the line sold by liberals that Kavanaugh is a drunken rapist? The Dems on the Senate judiciary committee never came anywhere close to suggesting anything of the sort. I don't even think AOC would go that far with her characterization of him. And just so I don't mis quote you, did you ever speak out with the same degree of outrage when Joe Biden was hit with an even more serious, more recent, and more documented charge of sexual assault as you did with Kavanaugh? If you didn't, then it's a pretty good indicator of a liberal POV. I know for a fact that you never referred to Biden as a drunken rapist.

All I'm saying is that the stances you have taken could easily be misinterpreted as having come from a liberal.

My choice for president was Biden or Trump. Admitted on tape rapist with 25 known victims for Trump or in the case of Biden a single accusation in 47 years of public life by a woman who worked for him decades ago whose first public statements were that he had made her feel uncomfortable, hostile work environment stuff. It eventually morphed into a story of him forcing himself on her and ummm,. doing what trumps on tape admitting.. There was no allegation of him being drunk at any point I'm aware of.Who knows. It didn't gain much traction. I hope its not true but having listened to both I really couldn't get a feel for it. Like everything else someone is lying and someone is telling the truth.



. We may have to put up with him 4 years but not 40 and as opposed to 2 choices for the presidency there were probably a dozen qualified candidates for the SCOTUS.Trump was warned by MCconnell not to choose Kavanaugh . Ill debate it till the cows come home. He acted like a guilty man throughout, lied under oath, huddled in the WH basement with an army of lawyers for 3 days before confronting the accusations at all. He declined to take a polygraph, you couldn't get me in the chair fast enough if someone accused me of something like this.Hearing over and he knew it which is why he didn't take it.She did, from a retired FBI interrogator. She passed . The WH controlled the investigation, the FBI, everyting. However Kavanaugh buddies who were shut out of the FBI investigation describe him as a loud staggering singing drunk most of the evenings in high school and college which is the condition Ramires and Blasi Ford described him as being in when he assaulted them. Hence the nickname. R senators scepticism of Kavanaugh vanished as polls showed it was a winner with the base . Dude did a powder puff interview on Faux where he claimed to have been a virgin till marriage among other things leading to many people coming forward to refute that. He's just a provable liar .

He did it. He's a skunk and he will sit and make judgements on america for 40 years as Ms Blasiford, ms Ramires etc look at their perp in the hallowed chamber.

Ill say this for Biden. When he decided to run the first thing he did is apologize to any and all women he had made feel uncomfortable and invaded their space. He pledged to understand its a new day and new boundaries and to respect that and looks like he has so far.

As for liberal ideas vs conservative ideas honestly I dont know what to believe anymore . what that even means. I know the president does not give a damn about america, has quit governing almost entirely while complaining the job he isn't doing has been stolen from him .And some people want 4 more years of that so i guess if opposing that makes me liberal im liberal.

[RiverDog]

My choice for president was Biden or Trump. Admitted on tape rapist with 25 known victims for Trump or in the case of Biden a single accusation in 47 years of public life by a woman who worked for him decades ago whose first public statements were that he had made her feel uncomfortable, hostile work environment stuff. It eventually morphed into a story of him forcing himself on her and ummm,. doing what trumps on tape admitting.. There was no allegation of him being drunk at any point I'm aware of.Who knows. It didn't gain much traction. I hope its not true but having listened to both I really couldn't get a feel for it. Like everything else someone is lying and someone is telling the truth.

The comparison I made had nothing to do with Trump. There's no denying that he's a scumbag, and I'm with you 100% in that regard. The comparison I was making was in regard to your stance against Kavanaugh, the "drunk rapist", where you've chosen to believe the accuser, vs. Biden, where you've apparently rationalized the accusations. There was PLENTY of information out there that would tend to at the very least shed some major doubt on the accusations against Bret Kavanaugh, not the least of which was that the supposed incident occurred 37 years ago. That type of hypocrisy exhibits the type of behavior one would expect from a hard core liberal.

As for liberal ideas vs conservative ideas honestly I dont know what to believe anymore.

All I'm saying is that your repeated attacks on conservatives besides Trump, such as Bret Kavanaugh, Republican Senators, your characterization of "Faux" news, etc, might lead one to think that you're a liberal. That's not an insult. I could call you a lot worse, like a 49'ers fan.

[Aseahawkfan]

What is "bad" about believing as military experts do, that Trump is a dangerous and destabilizing threat to america, never more so as a lunatic fringe lame duck? Is John Kelley Garbage when he says Trump's actions are "potentially disastrous"?. I believe John Kelly. I believe Jim Mattis. HR MCmaster. I believe the intelligence experts that fear this man will be a security threat as long as he lives and breathes even after he hopefully leaves office due to his dire financial straits and entanglements world wide.If having a problem with this psycho in charge of and trying to dismantle his top military brass makes me "bad" well Im bad. As for the left wing media that reports it they are not ventriloquists. Its the free and ADVERSARIAL media that's always brought the darkness of presidential administrations to light. Its not fake news.

And you always forget I'm not on the left. I'm a former lifelong republican now an independent who has never ascribed to the far left. I'm a patriotic intelligent observant american with a good judge of character who has opposed this apostasy from day one no matter whether there was an R on him, no matter his ideology or that of his enablers. I hate the most hateable despicable person ever in the office, surely the most unstable and dangerous.

I'm a rare breath of fresh air in america. A man with a burden for america and a clear understanding what we should find acceptable out of our leaders in terms of character and fitness for the office.Even though Im the white 60+ no college educated republican yee-haw that was right in his wheelhouse demographically. that's not bad. That makes me what's right with america.

My friends follow similar "experts." People claiming to be experts while spouting only theories that don't have real evidence is why this is a hard position to determine. That's what the problem is.

Besides COVID19, there is no proof that America has been damaged or irreparably damaged militarily or in any other way. So the "experts" you prescribed to are engaging in theory, not fact.

[Aseahawkfan]

The comparison I made had nothing to do with Trump. There's no denying that he's a scumbag, and I'm with you 100% in that regard. The comparison I was making was in regard to your stance against Kavanaugh, the "drunk rapist", where you've chosen to believe the accuser, vs. Biden, where you've apparently rationalized the accusations. There was PLENTY of information out there that would tend to at the very least shed some major doubt on the accusations against Bret Kavanaugh, not the least of which was that the supposed incident occurred 37 years ago. That type of hypocrisy exhibits the type of behavior one would expect from a hard core liberal.

All I'm saying is that your repeated attacks on conservatives besides Trump, such as Bret Kavanaugh, Republican Senators, your characterization of "Faux" news, etc, might lead one to think that you're a liberal. That's not an insult. I could call you a lot worse, like a 49'ers fan.

Par for the course. Hard to fault someone when he's doing what he's been encouraged to do by a media spinning events into world shattering events that will leave America devastated regardless of who wins. Right now my conservative buddies are waiting for lockdowns back up by military police, the removal of all their guns, defunding of the police, and Biden and Harris to usher in socialism at gun point.

I'm still of the mind the COVID environment caused a lot of this. My friends never acted this extreme before being locked down. It was polarized, but not like this. The COVID environment is really driving people nuts making everything more extreme. The COVID environment was like tossing gasoline on the dumpster fire of American politics that already existed.

[Aseahawkfan]

I think it's even beyond that level. Now he's either the best human ever to live or the worst. The Messiah or the anti-Chirst. 6 months from now we'll have a new president, everything will be open because of the vaccine, and the Seahawks will be Super Bowl champs. All will be right in the world and the news will have nothing to report on.

I'll never quite understand how Trump reached this status for people myself. It's hard to comprehend. The power of the media is what I mostly chalk it up to, because real effect on America the country was quite small other than to supercharge the economy, his poor handling of the child separation policy at the border which fortunately he stopped, and his bombastic, narcissistic talk. Dick Cheney was a far more dangerous man than Trump and Clinton was equally corrupt, but I guess it proves Americans consider how you talk more important than what you do.

[RiverDog]

The comparison I made had nothing to do with Trump. There's no denying that he's a scumbag, and I'm with you 100% in that regard. The comparison I was making was in regard to your stance against Kavanaugh, the "drunk rapist", where you've chosen to believe the accuser, vs. Biden, where you've apparently rationalized the accusations. There was PLENTY of information out there that would tend to at the very least shed some major doubt on the accusations against Bret Kavanaugh, not the least of which was that the supposed incident occurred 37 years ago. That type of hypocrisy exhibits the type of behavior one would expect from a hard core liberal.

All I'm saying is that your repeated attacks on conservatives besides Trump, such as Bret Kavanaugh, Republican Senators, your characterization of "Faux" news, etc, might lead one to think that you're a liberal. That's not an insult. I could call you a lot worse, like a 49'ers fan.

Par for the course. Hard to fault someone when he's doing what he's been encouraged to do by a media spinning events into world shattering events that will leave America devastated regardless of who wins. Right now my conservative buddies are waiting for lockdowns back up by military police, the removal of all their guns, defunding of the police, and Biden and Harris to usher in socialism at gun point.

I'm still of the mind the COVID environment caused a lot of this. My friends never acted this extreme before being locked down. It was polarized, but not like this. The COVID environment is really driving people nuts making everything more extreme. The COVID environment was like tossing gasoline on the dumpster fire of American politics that already existed.

I agree. The COVID crisis wasn't the root cause, but it sure increased the veracity of the problems, ie pouring gasoline in the dumpster fire. That's one of the reasons that I feel that we'll get back to more or less normal by this summer once the pandemic is under control. The problems won't be resolved, but hopefully we won't see all this random violence that we've been witnessing.

[Aseahawkfan]

I agree. The COVID crisis wasn't the root cause, but it sure increased the veracity of the problems, ie pouring gasoline in the dumpster fire. That's one of the reasons that I feel that we'll get back to more or less normal by this summer once the pandemic is under control. The problems won't be resolved, but hopefully we won't see all this random violence that we've been witnessing.

I'm not sure how the violence is compared to pre and post-COVID. I'm surprised we haven't had more mass shootings or similar events myself. Most of it seems to have been incidents with protests and of course Chicago. Chicago seems like a crazy place.

I really wish we had a centralized bureau of statistics run by the government that kept information statistics that we could look at and compare to other periods. Right now statistics are kept in several different areas across the nation. That is one thing I would like to see the government do is keep far better information easily available to the public.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/tr ... li=BBnb7Kz

I will not retract my statements regarding Trump. There's more to come as well. This is truly terrifying . This is a desperate mentally ill enraged man still legally in control of the US military and he doesn't want to go to jail or leave office....
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/16/politics ... index.html

Here Ya go Putin
I've had this guy nailed down from day one. I read him like a book and its a horror story. Truly frightened.I wonder if all the R senators popping off all of a sudden will actually grow a pair, endorse Biden and threaten Trump with the 25th amendment if he doesn't settle down. https://www.mediaite.com/news/mcconnell ... h-us-harm/

Not happening . The republican party hates america a lot worse than the left does. Its all about politics no matter how many die.

[I-5]

All I'm saying is that your repeated attacks on conservatives besides Trump, such as Bret Kavanaugh, Republican Senators, your characterization of "Faux" news, etc, might lead one to think that you're a liberal.

Or maybe the republican party has been changing and changing into something unrecognizable from what it was. Both parties continue to evolve, but I'd say right now the current republican party is not very good for democracy. I'm surprised how many prominent republicans are still fronting for the fool in the White House, when even some conservatives here in this forum thought Trump would fade away and be tossed aside by the party as soon as he loses. I had a feeling before the election that he would love, but would never stop complaining about it being unfair until the day he dies, and this his true followers wouldn't quietly fade away. They were always there, like when John McCain had to calm his supporters at one of his rallies by gently reminding them that Obama wasn't a muslim, and that although he disagreed with his politics, Obama was a good man. But now they have a new messiah in Trump, feeding all their conspiracy theory hunger, and are loving it. The only part I'm not certain of is just how many people fall into that camp, considering 73 million people voted for him.

[mykc14]

Not happening . The republican party hates america a lot worse than the left does. Its all about politics no matter how many die.

You really wonder why people might consider you liberal leaning? There are plenty of people on the conservative side who would say the opposite, that the Democrats hate America way more than the Right. I imagine there are people on both sides who favor policy that isn't good for America but by and large most people on both sides are probably pretty good people who are trying to do their best to vote for a party that represents their values. Most people I know who voted for Trump didn't like it but believe in what they call the 'conservative ideals' of the Republican party. Most of the people I know who voted for Biden didn't like Trump and felt that America had to be a bit more progressive in some areas. I think that most voters are more moderate than the party leaders that represent them. Most Democrats don't want to be a socialist country while most Republicans don't worship Trump. You spend so much time in liberal media that you have been brainwashed to believe that everything Trump represents is evil and everybody who votes for him has to be stupid. There are many other issues that voters feel passionate about that leads them to vote in a certain direction. Most liberals are shocked that essentially half of the voters in our country could vote for Trump. That is the make-up of our country. It is essentially Rural vs. Urban. IMO it's these differences that makes America great and keeps us from going too far in any one direction.

[RiverDog]

Or maybe the republican party has been changing and changing into something unrecognizable from what it was. Both parties continue to evolve, but I'd say right now the current republican party is not very good for democracy. I'm surprised how many prominent republicans are still fronting for the fool in the White House, when even some conservatives here in this forum thought Trump would fade away and be tossed aside by the party as soon as he loses. I had a feeling before the election that he would love, but would never stop complaining about it being unfair until the day he dies, and this his true followers wouldn't quietly fade away. They were always there, like when John McCain had to calm his supporters at one of his rallies by gently reminding them that Obama wasn't a muslim, and that although he disagreed with his politics, Obama was a good man. But now they have a new messiah in Trump, feeding all their conspiracy theory hunger, and are loving it. The only part I'm not certain of is just how many people fall into that camp, considering 73 million people voted for him.

Yea, I'm a little surprised at how long some of the Republican pols are keeping their lips attached to Trump's behind. But they are starting to crack. Here's a sampling:

National security adviser Robert O'Brien promised a "professional transition" of power, saying it looks like Biden has won the election.

Sen. James Risch (R-Idaho), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, acknowledged Biden's victory in an interview with The Spokesman-Review, based in Spokane, Wash.

Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Monday afternoon referred to Biden as the president-elect. "That will be the president-elect's decision, obviously," Rubio said when asked about Biden appointing Sen. Angus King (I-Maine), a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, to serve as the next director of national intelligence.

Sen. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) said it would make sense to give Biden access to intelligence briefings. "It's reasonable for the vice president to be given security briefings. I don't see any harm at all and actually a lot of help," he said.

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) said he didn't see any evidence that addressing any incidents of voter fraud or miscounted ballots would be enough to erase Biden's lead in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and other key battleground states. "I haven't seen anything that would change the outcome," he said when asked whether he believes Biden will be the next president, while noting "there are some specific cases where there are some problems that have been revealed." Cornyn later told reporters: "Come January the 20th we're going to inaugurate a president and I think it'll probably be Joe Biden."

On Sunday, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine (R) told CNN "it's clear that - certainly based on what we know now - that Joe Biden is the president-elect" and argued "it's important" that a normal transition of power begin.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... d=msedgntp

As the lawsuits get dismissed, as recounts are completed and elections are certified, and certainly after the Electoral College votes, it's going to be very difficult for the R's to keep their wall from crumbling.

[I-5]

Yea, I'm a little surprised at how long some of the Republican pols are keeping their lips attached to Trump's behind. But they are starting to crack.

The question is why would they do that? He is a lame duck ex-president, so the only ones they really fear are his cult followers...are they themselves are drinking the Trump is King Kool Aid.

[mykc14]

Or maybe the republican party has been changing and changing into something unrecognizable from what it was. Both parties continue to evolve, but I'd say right now the current republican party is not very good for democracy.

This is the exact same feeling that he Right has about the Left. Really, I think this is the problem. It's getting harder and harder to have political discussions with people because both sides view the other in such a negative light.

[RiverDog]

Not happening . The republican party hates america a lot worse than the left does. Its all about politics no matter how many die.

You really wonder why people might consider you liberal leaning? There are plenty of people on the conservative side who would say the opposite, that the Democrats hate America way more than the Right. I imagine there are people on both sides who favor policy that isn't good for America but by and large most people on both sides are probably pretty good people who are trying to do their best to vote for a party that represents their values. Most people I know who voted for Trump didn't like it but believe in what they call the 'conservative ideals' of the Republican party. Most of the people I know who voted for Biden didn't like Trump and felt that America had to be a bit more progressive in some areas. I think that most voters are more moderate than the party leaders that represent them. Most Democrats don't want to be a socialist country while most Republicans don't worship Trump. You spend so much time in liberal media that you have been brainwashed to believe that everything Trump represents is evil and everybody who votes for him has to be stupid. There are many other issues that voters feel passionate about that leads them to vote in a certain direction. Most liberals are shocked that essentially half of the voters in our country could vote for Trump. That is the make-up of our country. It is essentially Rural vs. Urban. IMO it's these differences that makes America great and keeps us from going too far in any one direction.

Truth.

I know a lot of people that voted for Trump. They are not, as Hillary Clinton once accused as half of them as being, composed of racists, homophobes, sexists, or in her words, "deplorables". A good example is our friend Mack, the only regular poster that has admitted to having voted for Trump. He most definitely does not fit that stereotype.

There are a lot of people that voted for Trump that didn't necessarily like him, but that they don't like the alternative, especially after some of the events of the past year. They see Democrats as being socialists, weak on crime, supporting a cancel culture, and seeking to defund police departments. In my opinion, that's a very unfair characterization of the large majority of Democrats, especially Joe Biden, but the Dems have not done a very good job of delineating themselves from the progressive wing of the party that is pushing the country in a direction it's not ready for.

[RiverDog]

Yea, I'm a little surprised at how long some of the Republican pols are keeping their lips attached to Trump's behind. But they are starting to crack.

The question is why would they do that? He is a lame duck ex-president, so the only ones they really fear are his cult followers...are they themselves are drinking the Trump is King Kool Aid.

The answer is quite simple. Trump shocked the nation by once again shattering expectations and nearly winning the election. He garnered over 47% of the popular vote. Over 73 million people voted for Trump, the 2nd most ever in a Presidential election. Many Republicans are afraid to openly break with him, at least not now when the election technically isn't officially over. Some are looking to Georgia, where the control of the Senate looms in the balance in an election to be held in the coming weeks.

We'll see what happens to the Republican Party after Jan. 20th. I used to think that they'd swing back more to the middle, but after being so wrong about the election and how deep Trump's roots go, I don't want to venture a guess.

[Aseahawkfan]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-sought-options-for-attacking-iran-to-stop-its-growing-nuclear-program/ar-BB1b4gw1?li=BBnb7Kz

I will not retract my statements regarding Trump. There's more to come as well. This is truly terrifying . This is a desperate mentally ill enraged man still legally in control of the US military and he doesn't want to go to jail or leave office....
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/16/politics ... index.html

Here Ya go Putin
I've had this guy nailed down from day one. I read him like a book and its a horror story. Truly frightened.I wonder if all the R senators popping off all of a sudden will actually grow a pair, endorse Biden and threaten Trump with the 25th amendment if he doesn't settle down. https://www.mediaite.com/news/mcconnell ... h-us-harm/

Not happening . The republican party hates america a lot worse than the left does. Its all about politics no matter how many die.

I want you to explain how withdrawing troops from Afghanistan harms us? I work with Afghans who tell me about Afghanistan. It is not improving. We are constantly under attack. More than half the Afghans do not want us there. We're primarily viewed as a source of money. And their people primarily take money from us and use it to buy more militia power to keep their particular power group in power. Why should we stay there? Break it down for me. I want to hear why you think we should stay there and what progress we appear to be making.

Not posturing, but real progress. Who we're working with. What we're doing there. Let's hear the reasoning for you wanting to stay.

[Aseahawkfan]

The answer is quite simple. Trump shocked the nation by once again shattering expectations and nearly winning the election. He garnered over 47% of the popular vote. Over 73 million people voted for Trump, the 2nd most ever in a Presidential election. Many Republicans are afraid to openly break with him, at least not now when the election technically isn't officially over. Some are looking to Georgia, where the control of the Senate looms in the balance in an election to be held in the coming weeks.

We'll see what happens to the Republican Party after Jan. 20th. I used to think that they'd swing back more to the middle, but after being so wrong about the election and how deep Trump's roots go, I don't want to venture a guess.

It will all depend on who wins at the top. My friends will vote Republican regardless of who runs. They view Democrats and Democratic leadership as enemies to America that hate this country, want to tear down its history, and install socialist and communist like controls on information, history, and society. They view them as anti-liberty and hypocrites. And they view them in a massive negative light. This is mostly due to media manipulation.

People like Hawtawk, c-bob, and I5 are the left side of the media manipulation like my right wing buddies. They buy into all these stories being told to them with listed statistics and pseudo-science combined with an inability to understand the underlying data, issue, or mechanism that shows the clear wrongness of the assertion, same as my buddies. There's so much bad information out there and Americans are lacking in ability to understand the economics and issues of the modern times. They are far more complex than they've ever been on a level we've never seen in history. I feel bad for the majority of them to tell you the truth. Everything is happening over their heads while the world changes from anything they knew in their youth.

I see the changes coming and feel bad for the youth. They can't compete with technological advancement that is driving this world and it's changing structure. We are global now. Not due to politics, but due to technology. Companies can move faster, work globally, and operate on a level never seen in history. They have no reason to be loyal to nations any longer as their interest no longer exist solely within a single national sphere of influence. There's no way for regular people to compete with that economically or politically.

When your economic structure is set up globally, you no longer can adhere to one history, one set of ideals, or be loyal to one nation or one people. When revenue streams are global, the wealth gap will not be closed as no regular working person can possibly accumulate wealth on a global level. I know not many on here read corporate reports, but one thing you notice is how many companies revenues are derived globally and list currency exchange values because they operate in so many nations with so many different currencies. The business leaders and politicians of various nations hobnob together. They have a vested interest in not offending any nation or people, which puts them at odds with say Americans who want American companies and politicians loyal to America.

Not many regular Americans realize this is occurring and at the level it is occurring. And that it is not going to return to what they once knew. Globally no one cares about American historical figures, so they don't care if they get torn down or what history is written for a nation. The modern tech leader is a globalist and a moral relativist as that is necessary for global business success. This is occurring not just here, but worldwide as many economies are reliant on the global marketplace.

I'm going to stop here, but suffice it to say it is unfortunate the the media is so powerful it is able to manipulate so many Americans. And it is unfortunate Americans don't realize what is going on with their economy and the world in general. The world is global now. Trump and several other leaders in nations like India and Britain are that last effort to hold on to a national identity that is going to continue to die as the global communication network leads to a world that is related across borders with a global identity and around the clock work that will have to adapt to global ideals eventually. This ball is rolling and it is not stopping because the older generation doesn't like it.

Both the Democrats and the Republicans are on board this train with only a slight pretense against it. All these media organizations like Fox and CNN do is distract Americans from what is happening to them so they can engage in petty infighting while the big dogs fight for global power throwing scraps to the citizens of their nations that can't adapt. Fox is owned by an Australian. CNN is owned by ATT. Both of them global networks. You think their owners give a flying crap about America other than to do what they must to get ratings for that advertising money? They have networks that do exactly the same thing in other nations worldwide. Their business is spinning people up for money. That's what guys like Tucker, Hannity, Rush, Lemon, Cooper, and the like get paid to do. They do it so well they have each side viewing each other as enemies, which is exactly how powerful people work. Divide and conquer using the low born to kill each other, while they take power at the top. It's all over our history books and continues on to this day.

[RiverDog]

It will all depend on who wins at the top. My friends will vote Republican regardless of who runs. They view Democrats and Democratic leadership as enemies to America that hate this country, want to tear down its history, and install socialist and communist like controls on information, history, and society. They view them as anti-liberty and hypocrites. And they view them in a massive negative light. This is mostly due to media manipulation.

People like Hawtawk, c-bob, and I5 are the left side of the media manipulation like my right wing buddies. They buy into all these stories being told to them with listed statistics and pseudo-science combined with an inability to understand the underlying data, issue, or mechanism that shows the clear wrongness of the assertion, same as my buddies. There's so much bad information out there and Americans are lacking in ability to understand the economics and issues of the modern times. They are far more complex than they've ever been on a level we've never seen in history. I feel bad for the majority of them to tell you the truth. Everything is happening over their heads while the world changes from anything they knew in their youth.

I'm not worried about people like our liberal friends on this board. They're all highly intelligent and can process information. What I worry about are the morons that can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map. They're the ones that are more susceptible to believing everything and anything that they're told. I honestly feel that the biggest reason that Trump got elected is that he won the moron vote. After all, Trump's biggest constituency was white males 50+ w/o a degree. That constituency, by definition, has to include morons. They're not going to laugh at Trump indicating that Paris is in Germany because they don't know themselves and Fox News isn't going to bring it to their attention. A person of Trump's mentality isn't going to offend them nearly as much as it would an intelligent person that can't understand how a person that stupid could make billions of dollars and become President of the United States.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm not worried about people like our liberal friends on this board. They're all highly intelligent and can process information. What I worry about are the morons that can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map. They're the ones that are more susceptible to believing everything and anything that they're told. I honestly feel that the biggest reason that Trump got elected is that he won the moron vote. After all, Trump's biggest constituency was white males 50+ w/o a degree. That constituency, by definition, has to include morons. They're not going to laugh at Trump indicating that Paris is in Germany because they don't know themselves and Fox News isn't going to bring it to their attention. A person of Trump's mentality isn't going to offend them nearly as much as it would an intelligent person that can't understand how a person that stupid could make billions of dollars and become President of the United States.

I don't agree with you. I don't think Americans as a whole have much of an idea of what is going on in America or the world. It's not that important to tell where the Pacific Ocean is. It's almost completely irrelevant to what is occurring in America and the world. People watch the general news while not much following trends in business or global politics. I haven't seen one person on here besides myself that seems to even realize that Germany and Europe rely more on Russian oil and a relationship with Russia than America. It is completely ignored and shows a lack of awareness as they believe rubbish about Trump and Russia while ignoring that European leaders are far more tied to Russia economically than America, yet no one is discussing them as corrupt. Too busy focused on Trump and hating each other.

I haven't seen many on this forum showing an understanding of what the H1B Visa program was created for or what it does economically to America globalizing the labor pool. What does it mean to globalize the labor pool with a combination of outsourcing and importing labor? How does that work economically and what are the advantages? Who does it benefit? Working Americans or global tech corporations? How does each party sell us on the idea? How does it affect wages? Why are we heavily globalizing? What effect is that having on America?

Some of the contradictions being pushed:

1. Competition for American jobs worldwide: You ever listen to the discussion of American jobs and wages? Americans have this idea that this occurs on a national level, but it has become global. There is a lot of competition for American jobs globally. The H1B Visa program is specifically created for this.

2. Undermining of unions as big tech is immensely anti-union. You ever wonder why Democrats get so much money from big tech, when big tech is notoriously anti-union if they are really concerned with American workers? Then they take money from unions claiming they are helping them, while at the same time accepting money from corporations that are notoriously anti-union and working in a fashion to create a labor situation that makes unions a moot point? And also undermines our ability to use government labor laws to any advantage because they are operating outside the nation.

3. Big Tech is also automating at a high rate looking to eliminate human work as much as possible.

4. Environmentalism is destroying some of the last the working man jobs in terms of oil and gas production as well as manufacturing involving petroleum projects hoping that work in renewable energy will replace the oil and gas work. Do we know if work in green energy is expanding at the necessary amount to absorb these job losses?

5. There is also a push for taxation and expenditure on public work jobs to maybe absorb some of what is going on with corporations automating and globalizing labor, which will create a reliance on the government for job growth which will increase taxes and expand the power of the government as those who rely on taxes for jobs will often vote in the direction of the party that pays them.

6. Big tech doesn't mind as they often negotiate tax breaks or move operations to the most beneficial tax situation nationally or globally given digital operations are far easier to move than physical operations.

The reality is keeping Americans divided arguing over issues that don't much concern the biggest and most powerful corporations and people in our society is as much to create gridlock as dividing the government does. I think Americans are getting gamed and misled myself on both sides of the political spectrum. There are deals happening on a daily basis in the business and political world more consequential than gun rights or medicine or who becomes president that American media doesn't even cover well or care much about because Americans only care about certain issues they deem important. Americans are happy to be sold boogiemen and Constitutional issues while big tech corporations make such things fairly irrelevant.

You ever stop and think that right now Tesla and major car corporations are heavily focused on automated driving? Tell me how many jobs you think will be destroyed if they successfully automate transportation? Trucking, taxis, uber, local delivery services. Yet here are these big tech companies doing just this, while Americans sit around arguing over an idiot like Trump.

If you're running large governments, what do you do to prepare your people for an era of robotics and automation that will destroy their jobs at a level never seen before? Unions won't be destroyed by Repubilcans, but by tech companies replacing human work with robots who don't care about medical or wages? And yet here we are worried about Trump or 2nd Amendment rights and such. And as far as being concerned with whether someone knows where the Pacific Ocean is, don't worry Google is figuring out how to have your phone tell you where the Pacific Ocean is and sending a boat to pick you up that will automatically take you there.

And we're here arguing about a dumbass reality TV star that some have been convinced is the puppet of an economically weak nation with stronger ties to Europe than America and the right is worried about Joe Biden raising taxes, while global mega-corporations are looking at them as obsolete long-term unless they adapt to automation. And you're telling me Americans know how to process information? Not what I'm seeing. They know how to turn on their TV or Youtube and watch CNN or Fox. That's what I see.

You're retired. This discussion is just fun for you. I'm financially very sharp. I barely have to care myself. Tech doesn't concern me. But boy, Americans are worrying about smoke and mirrors, while corporations are building a world people will barely recognize in 50 years.

[RiverDog]

It's not that important to tell where the Pacific Ocean is. It's almost completely irrelevant to what is occurring in America and the world.

I haven't seen many on this forum showing an understanding of what the H1B Visa program was created for or what it does economically to America globalizing the labor pool. What does it mean to globalize the labor pool with a combination of outsourcing and importing labor? How does that work economically and what are the advantages? Who does it benefit? Working Americans or global tech corporations? How does each party sell us on the idea? How does it affect wages? Why are we heavily globalizing? What effect is that having on America?

If a person can't find the Pacific Ocean on a map, I'd bet the farm that they wouldn't know what a H1B visa is.

The point about not being able to find the Pacific Ocean on a map has less to do with geographical knowledge than it does overall intelligence. If a person can't figure out which wheel design is more efficient, a square one or a round one, I doubt that they'll know anything about the effect of outsourcing labor has on wages.

And you're telling me Americans know how to process information? Not what I'm seeing. They know how to turn on their TV or Youtube and watch CNN or Fox. That's what I see.

I didn't say that all Americans, or even the average American, knows how to process information. I limited my opinion to just those three posters you referred to: Cbob, Hawktalk, and I-5.

You're retired. This discussion is just fun for you. I'm financially very sharp. I barely have to care myself. Tech doesn't concern me. But boy, Americans are worrying about smoke and mirrors, while corporations are building a world people will barely recognize in 50 years.

The discussions we have in here are more than just for fun for me. I do learn a thing or two from them. Over the years, it's sharpened my literary and debating skills, but those talents aren't of much use anymore unless I need to convince the county to do some work on my easement or something.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="mykc14"

You really wonder why people might consider you liberal leaning? There are plenty of people on the conservative side who would say the opposite, that the Democrats hate America way more than the Right. I imagine there are people on both sides who favor policy that isn't good for America but by and large most people on both sides are probably pretty good people who are trying to do their best to vote for a party that represents their values. Most people I know who voted for Trump didn't like it but believe in what they call the 'conservative ideals' of the Republican party. Most of the people I know who voted for Biden didn't like Trump and felt that America had to be a bit more progressive in some areas. I think that most voters are more moderate than the party leaders that represent them. Most Democrats don't want to be a socialist country while most Republicans don't worship Trump. You spend so much time in liberal media that you have been brainwashed to believe that everything Trump represents is evil and everybody who votes for him has to be stupid. There are many other issues that voters feel passionate about that leads them to vote in a certain direction. Most liberals are shocked that essentially half of the voters in our country could vote for Trump. That is the make-up of our country. It is essentially Rural vs. Urban. IMO it's these differences that makes America great and keeps us from going too far in any one direction.[/quote]

This is the Trump party Im talking about. Trump himself and his utter shills.. Not conservative vs liberal ideology on debate here. THE TRUMP PARTY HATES AMERICA. Or at a minimum they love Trump a lot more than they love America. They have made america unrecognizable to me, the republican party.Disgusting base behavior, lying cowardice gets rewarded over and over. People who disagree get fired which is why we have our 5th!!!!!!!!!!! (acting) secretary of defense while Trump plots ways to go to war.This POS has done more damage to america in 4 years in the ways that really matter than every democratic administration in my lifetime. And it continues to this day with his charade trying to convince 70 million gullible brain dead trumpanzees he won and being willing to go to war to wag the dog. Tearing away from myself and the 80 million who would have crawled miles on glass to vote the son of a b**** out the satisfaction of hearing this orange baboon admit he lost and not endanger the country and world with his refusal to concede. Its not fake news . Its news. He's horrible, the worst president in history and he got 70 million votes.

Its really bad and sad when a naked emperor can fool the people for a while. Its chilling when his fat stink bloated naked orange body is in full view and 70 million will support him they claim cause socialism so bad.

BS. Its a friggin cult. Just own up to it.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/se ... r-BB1b68rX and in other news...
come on Jan 20.hurry...

[RiverDog]

Its chilling when his fat stink bloated naked orange body is in full view

I gotta admit that I had a good belly laugh when I read that one. I hope you don't talk like that about Trump should you ever go to the rally in Sturgis, SD.