In denial

[RiverDog]

Yes, the early season schedule was soft.

Is it my imagination or do the Hawks throw to he tight ends less than a lot of other successful teams? Maybe it is because we don't have a big playmaker like a Kelce or a Kittle but maybe it's part of Pete's philosophy to shore up the run by keeping the tight ends in for blocking.

Shotty's offense is renown for utilizing tight ends. We've spent draft choices on them (a #4 on Dissly, #4 on Parkinson) and signed one of the top tight ends in free agency (Olsen). Part of it has to be that our leading receiving tight end, Greg Olsen got hurt in our 11th game, but I agree, it would appear that we haven't been utilizing them.

[c_hawkbob]

I think it's on Pete.

Russ was having a career year when we didn't have a defense or an O-line, he was running like a Ferrari. Playing better than anyone and better than anyone thought he had in him. Weaker opponents or not (and I don't buy into that either, our second half schedule should have been the easy half). He was the only consideration for MVP at the time...

Then when we got the pieces that turned our defense around and our O-line started coming together Pete went back to his Mack Truck offense and it messed with Russ' head. You don't detune a Ferrari to run like a truck, then it's no good at either. Pete needs to learn to ride the hot hand and not force everything into his comfortable mode. In this loss every time we needed something to happen for us in the first 3 quarters we ran straight into the center of that Rams defense, usually for one or two yards. Nobody is gonna make a living running straight at that front! You get behind the count on them and you're most likely toast.

You watch, Russ is gonna leave here at the end of his contract and turn someone's entire team around, wind up a first Ballot Hall of Famer with everybody seeing him in a different uniform than ours... and we'll be looking for Trent Dilfer.

[mykc14]

As far as his performance at the start of the season vs. the 2nd half, I keep harping about it like a broken record. Take a look at the quality of defenses we faced early in the season (Falcons, Pats, Cowboys, Dolphins, Vikings) vs. that in the latter part of the season (Rams X2, Giants, WFT, Niners). That has to have been a factor.

There is no doubt that playing those good defenses in the 2nd half of the year was a factor in his overall numbers but it doesn't even begin to tell the story. The second half of the season, especially after the first Rams game the offense changed. He changed. There was a completely different focus on offense. RW only averaged 4 yards an attempt at Washington. I know they are a good defense, but 4 yards an attempt is one of the lowest I have seen. For Reference Mitch Trubiskisy's lowest Y/PA was 5.8 and Carson Wentz had a 6.4 Y/PA against WFT. You can also see this when you compare division opponents we have faced twice. RW's first game against the niners he had over a 7 Y/PA and the second time it was 5, and imagine how low it would have been had he not brought the team back in the 4th quarter, when they had to get chunk plays in the passing game, it probably would have been in the 4's as well. It was also lower the second time they played the Cards. He finished the regular season with is second lowest ever Y/PA (7.5) which is deceiving because his his Y/PA before the first Rams game were: 9.2, 10.29, 7.88, 10.59, 6.78, 7.16, 7.05, and 9.51.... the second half of the season: 6.7, 7.04, 7.42, 6.12, 7.13, 4.48, 7.03, 5.03, and 6.44... When you have an offense that has lots of quick hitters and things like that you might see some low games, but that's not the Hawks offense.

I agree that some of that is due to the defenses that they were facing but I would argue that a bigger part was due to offensive philosophy. They were lost the second half of the season. Yeah, they were winning games, but they were doing it without forging through and finding an offensive identity. They needed to work through the mid-season struggles and instead of doing that they completely changed who they are and the result was predictable, although I thought the 'L' would come next week, because I didn't think the Rams would be able to score more than 17 points on our D.

[mykc14]

I think it's on Pete.

Russ was having a career year when we didn't have a defense or an O-line, he was running like a Ferrari. Playing better than anyone and better than anyone thought he had in him. Weaker opponents or not (and I don't buy into that either, our second half schedule should have been the easy half). He was the only consideration for MVP at the time...

Then when we got the pieces that turned our defense around and our O-line started coming together Pete went back to his Mack Truck offense and it messed with Russ' head. You don't detune a Ferrari to run like a truck, then it's no good at either. Pete needs to learn to ride the hot hand and not force everything into his comfortable mode. In this loss every time we needed something to happen for us in the first 3 quarters we ran straight into the center of that Rams defense, usually for one or two yards. Nobody is gonna make a living running straight at that front! You get behind the count on them and you're most likely toast.

You watch, Russ is gonna leave here at the end of his contract and turn someone's entire team around, wind up a first Ballot Hall of Famer with everybody seeing him in a different uniform than ours... and we'll be looking for Trent Dilfer.

I agree with all of this. PC overcorrected when RW dented the Ferrari. Then PC didn't just take the keys away, he stuck RW in a car-seat and 5-point harness. I agree about RW getting frustrated and possibly leaving when he gets the chance too. He see's multiple offensive systems designed around their elite QB's while he has to sit back and let a defensive minded coach limit him. No doubt RW had too many INT's at mid-season. At the same time I have discussed a few times about how unlucky he was with some of those INT's. PC will continue to point out the fact that without those two turnovers they win that game... maybe they do, but they weren't winning a SB with that offense against a team with a decent offense anyway. If you are paying RW 35 mill/year then you can't afford to run an offense that is suitable for a 10 million dollar QB.

[NorthHawk]

It seems to me (and I'm willing to admit I might be wrong on this) that they had pretty much the same game plan for all the teams.
The same plodding Offense early with the same plays even when they were being stopped. It's getting really hard to watch the same
thing every week.

[mykc14]

Well it looks like the offense we are going to see next year is going to look just like the offense we saw down the stretch this year...

https://www.nfl.com/news/pete-carroll-s ... re-in-2021

PC has forgotten more about football than I know but if simply facing 2-high safeties all year was the problem with this offense then you need to fire your coordinator. How many other teams face that concept and are just fine? I understand it takes away the deep stuff you like to throw, but then you should have been able to run better and throw more quick stuff. It's tough to play 2-deep against the Chiefs because they run so many Bubble Screens. There are things you can do schematically when teams are giving you a 2-deep look. You should still be able to throw the ball. Pete-Ball is coming back in full force next year. I also think it's funny that he references the fact that we scored more points this year than any team in Seahawks history. How many of those points came in the first half of the season compared to the second half...

[RiverDog]

You watch, Russ is gonna leave here at the end of his contract and turn someone's entire team around, wind up a first Ballot Hall of Famer with everybody seeing him in a different uniform than ours... and we'll be looking for Trent Dilfer.

He's under contract through the 2022 season. If things don't improve by next year, then we need to consider a trade. Heck, I wouldn't object to a trade this year if the price were right, something like what JS suggested.

I don't particularly care for being in the market for a new quarterback again as that period of time between Hass and Russ was painful, with QB's like Seneca Wallace, Tavaris Jackson, and Clipboard Jesus still fresh in my memory, but something has to give. As you and others have stated, Pete's most successful teams don't feature franchise-type quarterbacks, they feature defense, strong running games, and a point guard-type quarterback, so if Pete stays, Russell is going to have to go. I can't see this marriage lasting more than another year.

[RiverDog]

Well it looks like the offense we are going to see next year is going to look just like the offense we saw down the stretch this year...

https://www.nfl.com/news/pete-carroll-s ... re-in-2021

PC has forgotten more about football than I know but if simply facing 2-high safeties all year was the problem with this offense then you need to fire your coordinator. How many other teams face that concept and are just fine? I understand it takes away the deep stuff you like to throw, but then you should have been able to run better and throw more quick stuff. It's tough to play 2-deep against the Chiefs because they run so many Bubble Screens. There are things you can do schematically when teams are giving you a 2-deep look. You should still be able to throw the ball. Pete-Ball is coming back in full force next year. I also think it's funny that he references the fact that we scored more points this year than any team in Seahawks history. How many of those points came in the first half of the season compared to the second half...

Yup, I saw that, and it doesn't surprise me. However, Chris Carson is a free agent this year, and he and his agent have us by the gonads. We're going to need a top tier running back and guys like Homer and Dallas aren't going to be able to replace him if he walks.

I'm hearing a rumor on another forum that Chris Carson has unfollowed on Twitter Russell and the Seahawks. No link or else I would have started another thread.

[Hawktawk]

Yup, I saw that, and it doesn't surprise me. However, Chris Carson is a free agent this year, and he and his agent have us by the gonads. We're going to need a top tier running back and guys like Homer and Dallas aren't going to be able to replace him if he walks.

I'm hearing a rumor on another forum that Chris Carson has unfollowed on Twitter Russell and the Seahawks. No link or else I would have started another thread.

We shall see. Chris Carson is a tough call. When healthy he's as big a a load as 95% of the backs in the league. That's the if though. Has he ever played a full schedule? I like Homer in situational role and I'm high on DeeJay too. What about Rashard Penney? Is he a FA too? Not sure i even saw him on the field which is weird cause he has the home run speed if he gets to the second level.If they don't get any production out of him that's 2 blown high picks for RBs counting Christine Michael that didn't pan out.

Frankly I'm not a huge fan of this pussy ass zone blocking scheme. Id like to see some pulls and traps and combination blocks and such instead of a back having to guess where the hole is gonna be or not in many cases with our runs last saturday.

[obiken]

We shall see. Chris Carson is a tough call. When healthy he's as big a a load as 95% of the backs in the league. That's the if though. Has he ever played a full schedule? I like Homer in situational role and I'm high on DeeJay too. What about Rashard Penney? Is he a FA too? Not sure i even saw him on the field which is weird cause he has the home run speed if he gets to the second level.If they don't get any production out of him that's 2 blown high picks for RBs counting Christine Michael that didn't pan out.

Frankly I'm not a huge fan of this pussy ass zone blocking scheme. Id like to see some pulls and traps and combination blocks and such instead of a back having to guess where the hole is gonna be or not in many cases with our runs last saturday.

YES! Zone blocking is a way around not winning one on one match ups! Carson is a mixed bag, first injuries, then fumbling, and then more injuries. Could we get Najee Harris in the 2nd round, I think I am dreaming and drunk HT.

[RiverDog]

We shall see. Chris Carson is a tough call. When healthy he's as big a a load as 95% of the backs in the league. That's the if though. Has he ever played a full schedule? I like Homer in situational role and I'm high on DeeJay too. What about Rashard Penney? Is he a FA too? Not sure i even saw him on the field which is weird cause he has the home run speed if he gets to the second level.If they don't get any production out of him that's 2 blown high picks for RBs counting Christine Michael that didn't pan out.

Frankly I'm not a huge fan of this pussy ass zone blocking scheme. Id like to see some pulls and traps and combination blocks and such instead of a back having to guess where the hole is gonna be or not in many cases with our runs last saturday.

Penny has one more year plus a team option on a 2nd year left on his rookie contract.

Carson is going to be a tough call. He's by far the best running back on the roster but his health has been an issue. The problem is that we don't have anyone that can replace what he gives us. Carlos Hyde hits the magic age of 30 next season.

[RiverDog]

We shall see. Chris Carson is a tough call. When healthy he's as big a a load as 95% of the backs in the league. That's the if though. Has he ever played a full schedule? I like Homer in situational role and I'm high on DeeJay too. What about Rashard Penney? Is he a FA too? Not sure i even saw him on the field which is weird cause he has the home run speed if he gets to the second level.If they don't get any production out of him that's 2 blown high picks for RBs counting Christine Michael that didn't pan out.

Frankly I'm not a huge fan of this pussy ass zone blocking scheme. Id like to see some pulls and traps and combination blocks and such instead of a back having to guess where the hole is gonna be or not in many cases with our runs last saturday.

YES! Zone blocking is a way around not winning one on one match ups! Carson is a mixed bag, first injuries, then fumbling, and then more injuries. Could we get Najee Harris in the 2nd round, I think I am dreaming and drunk HT.

I see no reason to change our running concept. We were tied for 2nd in the league behind the Ravens for rushing yards per attempt and 5th overall in total rushing yards. Why would you want to go back to a Tom Cable-style zone blocking scheme when we've been getting that kind of production?

[Hawktawk]

We must have been thinking on the same plane regarding Russell not throwing underneath middle. Part of it could be related to his height, too.

As far as his performance at the start of the season vs. the 2nd half, I keep harping about it like a broken record. Take a look at the quality of defenses we faced early in the season (Falcons, Pats, Cowboys, Dolphins, Vikings) vs. that in the latter part of the season (Rams X2, Giants, WFT, Niners). That has to have been a factor.

Mayfield isn't much taller, nor is Brees, maybe an inch apiece.Both performed excellent against strong defense including Mayfield against the #1 pass rush in the league. Russ used to throw lots of passes and TDs out of the pocket including earlier this year.Hed zap the the slants and crosses and deep outs. He missed the tight ends a few times saturday including a very overthrown ball originally ruled an interception.It's just a super weird deal.To me it just doesn't look like his head is in the game sometimes.Something is in his head besides grip it and rip it.

But its why I started the thread. I figured after SB 49 we would have been back before 7 seasons had passed but we've just been a show horse when the tournament comes every damn year since and have dominated exactly none of the games won or lost. Zero first half offense in almost every playoff game since 2014 if I recall. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Doug Peterson got fired 3 years after winning a SB and had a playoff team a year ago. I guess the standards here are different . Its just damn hard when you get to the top . Its all kind of a letdown becoming a mediocre also ran team after that and record aside its what seattle is. A middle of the pack team. I've had to accept that. Not that its not fixable but time is running out for PC and Russ.

[Agent 86]

But its why I started the thread. I figured after SB 49 we would have been back before 7 seasons had passed but we've just been a show horse when the tournament comes every damn year since and have dominated exactly none of the games won or lost. Zero first half offense in almost every playoff game since 2014 if I recall. Correct me if i'm wrong.

2013 - beat Washington 24-14......down 14-13 at halftime
2013 - lost to Atlanta 30-28......down 20-0 at halftime
2014 - beat New Orleans 23-15.....up 16-0 at halftime
2014 - beat San Francisco 23-17.....down 10-3 at halftime
2014 - beat Denver 43-8.....up 22-0 at halftime
2015 - beat Carolina 31-17......up 14-10 at halftime
2015 - beat Green Bay 28-22.....down 16-0 at halftime
2015 - lost to New England 28-24.....tied 14-14 at halftime
2016 - beat Minnesota 10-9......down 3-0 at halftime (down 9-0 after 3 quarters)
2016 - lost to Carolina 31-24......down 31-0 at halftime
2017 - beat Detroit 26-6........up 10-3 at halftime
2017 - lost Divisional round to Atlanta 36-20.....down 19-10 at halftime
2018 - missed playoffs
2019 - lost to Dallas 24-22.....down 10-6 at halftime
2020 - beat Philadelphia 17-9.....up 10-3 at halftime
2020 - lost to Green Bay 28-23.....down 21-3 at halftime
2021 - lost to Los Angeles 30-20......down 20-10 at halftime

That is 16 games played. They were up at halftime in 5 of them, tied in 1 of them, and trailed in 10 of them. In those 16 games, they scored 131 points in the 1st half, an average of 8.19 points.

Post XLVII, they have played 11 games, have trailed or been tied in 8 of those games at halftime, and their 1st half average for points is 7.00.

Those are some disturbing numbers that I never really fully knew about. This has been going on for 9 years now. Was fine when you had a historically good defense from 2013-2016, that was enough to cover up the lack of offense. In 7 of those 16 games, they scored 3 points or less in the 1st half. Gross.

[trents]

Wow, Agent 86! To see the numbers laid out like that brings the problem into sharp focus. Makes me think even more that the biggest issue is philosophical/strategical rather than talent.

[RiverDog]

That is 16 games played. They were up at halftime in 5 of them, tied in 1 of them, and trailed in 10 of them. In those 16 games, they scored 131 points in the 1st half, an average of 8.19 points.

Post XLVII, they have played 11 games, have trailed or been tied in 8 of those games at halftime, and their 1st half average for points is 7.00.

Those are some disturbing numbers that I never really fully knew about. This has been going on for 9 years now. Was fine when you had a historically good defense from 2013-2016, that was enough to cover up the lack of offense. In 7 of those 16 games, they scored 3 points or less in the 1st half. Gross.

That's a pretty powerful argument, 86.

[c_hawkbob]

"Can you win the game in the first Quarter?" "NOOO!!" etc....

[Hawktawk]

This is denial . We tried much of the same stuff in bad games , deep shots etc. we’ve tried running the ball to set up play actions forever . it’s just Russ is indecisive and inaccurate after being razor sharp earlier in the year .

[mykc14]

This is denial . We tried much of the same stuff in bad games , deep shots etc. we’ve tried running the ball to set up play actions forever . it’s just Russ is indecisive and inaccurate after being razor sharp earlier in the year .

I think it's more than that. The issue isn't whether or not he is indecisive it is why he is indecisive. I believe it is because he is so scared to turn the ball over that he doesn't take any chances. I also attribute most of his inaccuracy to that as well. He even said himself after the was questioned about overthrowing Lockette deep a few weeks ago. He said he was simply throwing the ball away. Look at some of the completions he had at the beginning of the year. He was throwing the ball in tight coverage and wasn't thinking twice about it, like he should be. You didn't see that AT ALL in the second half of the season. If I were RW, DK, Lockette I would be pissed.

[NorthHawk]

After Wilson threw a few interceptions and we lost, apparently Pete got back involved with the Offense and throttled it back.
After that happened, it seems Russell wasn't as enthusiastic as he was. It was like someone took away his favorite toy and
some of the fun or excitement was lost for him. At least that's what it appears to me. At first I thought it was an injury, but
the way he carried himself was different.

[RiverDog]

Does anyone else notice that Russell doesn't seem to be taking as deep of a drop as he once did? He seems to have moved up closer in the pocket. I remember complaining that it put a lot of pressure on our tackles.

[mykc14]

Does anyone else notice that Russell doesn't seem to be taking as deep of a drop as he once did? He seems to have moved up closer in the pocket. I remember complaining that it put a lot of pressure on our tackles.

Yes I have noticed that. You look at guys like Mahomes and Rodgers and they often backpedal to give their guys another split second to get open. I think that’s something RW needs to add to his game.

[c_hawkbob]

Boy, when Russ was backpedaling everyone was saying how he needed to step up in the pocket ...

[RiverDog]

Boy, when Russ was backpedaling everyone was saying how he needed to step up in the pocket ...

Absolutely true. I am not offering it as a criticism, I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed the same thing that I'm seeing.

[mykc14]

Boy, when Russ was backpedaling everyone was saying how he needed to step up in the pocket ...

I remember that... one difference I’ve noticed with Mahomes and Rodgers is when they do it it seems they’ve read the D and know their receiver needs another second to get open.

[NorthHawk]

Russ does well on the run, but I don’t recall us ever using a moving pocket which might help against players like Donald.
Am I wrong in this?

[Uppercut]

I watched the game again last night or parts of it and RW was under bad pressure most of the time. There were a couple shots on the video where the Hawks O -line looked like one of those horse racing gates that all swing open at the same time.

[RiverDog]

I watched the game again last night or parts of it and RW was under bad pressure most of the time. There were a couple shots on the video where the Hawks O -line looked like one of those horse racing gates that all swing open at the same time.

He's been under pressure like that for the bulk of his career and he's always done a good job of managing it.

I'm beginning to agree with others that it has more to do with our offensive scheme. We actually ran the ball quite well last weekend, averaging 5.4 ypc. Carson averaged 4.8. No wonder Pete wants to run the ball more often.