Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Tue May 20, 2014 1:21 pm

kalibane wrote:
I think the idea of civil unions is fine if executed properly but think about it this way. We all complain about how much time our law makers waste on meaningless stuff right? Is it really worth the legislature's (and by extension our) time to rewrite countless federal and state laws so they can be inclusive of civil unions all just because some people don't like calling them "marriages"?

I'd rather our elected officials concentrate on bigger issues. It seems much more productive for gay people to just get married under the laws already on the books. Civil unions are are lot of wasted energy on what boils down to pure semantics.


So for the sake of expediency and miserliness, and because it doesn't PERSONALLY affect or bother you, you would trample on what a majority of people hold to be a SACRED institution, for the sake of a 2.5% minority?

Wow. I can't even think of a philosophical argument that you could use to defend that.
It certainly isn't constitutional...
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue May 20, 2014 1:32 pm

Not trampling at all. In fact not effecting in any manner whatsoever.

The gay couple down the street getting married or calling themselves married didn't effect the sanctity of my grandparent's 60 year (right up until grandpa died) marriage in the least. Not a ripple in my own 30 year and counting marriage either. No reason it should.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby NorthHawk » Tue May 20, 2014 1:38 pm

And all this time I thought Jesus teachings were about inclusion and acceptance...
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby kalibane » Tue May 20, 2014 1:46 pm

The majority of voting Americans support full on gay marriage now so I'm not sure what you're getting at with your reference to the majority Monkey.

This is clearly a very big issue for you because I don't know that I've ever seen such fervor come through in your posts before and I respect that but I think you may be projecting your beliefs onto a greater portion of the population than actually shares them.

We don't live in a Theocracy. The whole problem with the gay is a sin angle is that it receives a disproportionate amount of attention from those claiming it's a sin against God. For instance, when Mike Evans got drafted this year they cut to him in the green room and there he was holding up his child. Living breathing evidence of adultery and fornication. There were no angry tweets, no social media outrage about how the media was celebrating he and his girlfriend's life of sin and shoving their immoral lifestyle down our throats. But the second that Michael Sam kissed his boyfriend on camera, twitter exploded. There is no consistancy so the argument loses credibility when it's built on that foundation.

Marriage is just a label for a social contract sanctioned by the government. It existed before Christianity, or Judaism or Islam. So yes in order to give homosexuals equal rights under the SECULAR government that is expressly seperated from the church. It's far more logical, expediant and cost effective to just to allow gay people to "marry" rather than rewrite thousands of laws on the city, county, state and national level. And you are more than within your right to believe that it's not "real" marriage, furthermore I won't look down on you for it as I respect your personal religious beliefs.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue May 20, 2014 1:55 pm

Religion is like a penis. It's a fine thing to have and be proud of but when one takes it out and waves it in other people's faces it becomes a problem.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby kalibane » Tue May 20, 2014 2:00 pm

I'm stealing that.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby Zorn76 » Tue May 20, 2014 2:18 pm

I respect everybody's opinions on issues, yet I'm also reminded why I stay out of nearly all things political or religious.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby HumanCockroach » Tue May 20, 2014 2:19 pm

That is the funniest thing I have ever read on this, or any other board....LMFAO... :lol:
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby HumanCockroach » Tue May 20, 2014 2:22 pm

burrrton wrote:
HumanCockroach wrote:
burrrton wrote:"Why do you say you feel 'trapped' in a man's body?"

"Well, sometimes I get the menstrual cramps real hard..."


Something I said when I was undoubtably feeling bullet proof as a 20 something, and it stuck. Not much thought process in it, don't try to over analyse something that doesn't need to be analysed in the first place.


Not analyzing anything, HC. It's just a funny quote from a movie.



Really? I wasn't aware that was in a movie. Then again, maybe I saw it , when I was bullet proof, and have just been rehashing it for the last 25 or so years.... LOL
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby nlbmsportin » Tue May 20, 2014 2:24 pm

kalibane wrote:The majority of voting Americans support full on gay marriage now so I'm not sure what you're getting at with your reference to the majority Monkey.

This is clearly a very big issue for you because I don't know that I've ever seen such fervor come through in your posts before and I respect that but I think you may be projecting your beliefs onto a greater portion of the population than actually shares them.

We don't live in a Theocracy. The whole problem with the gay is a sin angle is that it receives a disproportionate amount of attention from those claiming it's a sin against God. For instance, when Mike Evans got drafted this year they cut to him in the green room and there he was holding up his child. Living breathing evidence of adultery and fornication. There were no angry tweets, no social media outrage about how the media was celebrating he and his girlfriend's life of sin and shoving their immoral lifestyle down our throats. But the second that Michael Sam kissed his boyfriend on camera, twitter exploded. There is no consistancy so the argument loses credibility when it's built on that foundation.

Marriage is just a label for a social contract sanctioned by the government. It existed before Christianity, or Judaism or Islam. So yes in order to give homosexuals equal rights under the SECULAR government that is expressly seperated from the church. It's far more logical, expediant and cost effective to just to allow gay people to "marry" rather than rewrite thousands of laws on the city, county, state and national level. And you are more than within your right to believe that it's not "real" marriage, furthermore I won't look down on you for it as I respect your personal religious beliefs.


I recommend anyone in favor of a Theocracy to renew our nation's "moral compass" should move to Saudi Arabia. I'm sure they would appreciate the MINORITY Christians crying about their rights instead of MAJORITY rule. If there's one thing the "Founders" like Jefferson and Madison got right, it was making our government a secular one. Marriage is a secular institution and a contract. No one is going to force any religious institution to perform a wedding. Just like no one is going to force a church to recognize my future non-religious, interracial marriage. The biggest threat to "sacred" marriage is divorce, yet no one wants to outlaw that.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby burrrton » Tue May 20, 2014 5:05 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:Really? I wasn't aware that was in a movie. Then again, maybe I saw it , when I was bullet proof, and have just been rehashing it for the last 25 or so years.... LOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6k2FkUF41AA
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby RiverDog » Tue May 20, 2014 6:32 pm

kalibane wrote:Well look I know it's quite in vogue to tear down both sides of the aisle, decry the spectre of big government interfering with our lives and champion individual liberties, I think the phrase, be careful what you wish for applies here.

I totally chuckled when I read your reply Riv because there is a kernal of truth in there. But the best lies contain a kernal of truth and while almost no one is happy with the way governent is going these days regardless of their personal views, I can guarntee you wouldn't be happy with the results if what you just typed came to pass. It would not be a good thing to clog the legislature with this kind of ridiculousness.


Yea, I was only half serious when I made that remark. I'm not part of the Nevada Open Range Ranchers Association. But honestly, I do not think it a waste of pol's time to try to find some sort of middle ground that is going to treat homosexual unions with fairness and equality yet not offend a lot of good, decent Americans. There's a whole lot of other things they do that is a complete waste of time that they have plenty of room on their agenda for something like civil unions, and if you don't believe me, try watching CSpan for just 10 minutes. I'd be a lot more worried about "this kind of ridiculousness" clogging up the court system than I would Congress or the various legislatures.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby burrrton » Tue May 20, 2014 7:38 pm

I've said it before: I do think both sides of this debate are absolutely unwilling to cede *any* ground, no matter how reasonable, to the other side. Because fck them, that's why, they'd say.

At any point, if the Supreme Court had told either side to STFU, that the other side was getting everything they demanded*, I'd have been fine with it. I don't think either side has or will stop trying to undermine the other.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby HumanCockroach » Tue May 20, 2014 9:20 pm

nlbmsportin wrote:
kalibane wrote:The majority of voting Americans support full on gay marriage now so I'm not sure what you're getting at with your reference to the majority Monkey.

This is clearly a very big issue for you because I don't know that I've ever seen such fervor come through in your posts before and I respect that but I think you may be projecting your beliefs onto a greater portion of the population than actually shares them.

We don't live in a Theocracy. The whole problem with the gay is a sin angle is that it receives a disproportionate amount of attention from those claiming it's a sin against God. For instance, when Mike Evans got drafted this year they cut to him in the green room and there he was holding up his child. Living breathing evidence of adultery and fornication. There were no angry tweets, no social media outrage about how the media was celebrating he and his girlfriend's life of sin and shoving their immoral lifestyle down our throats. But the second that Michael Sam kissed his boyfriend on camera, twitter exploded. There is no consistancy so the argument loses credibility when it's built on that foundation.

Marriage is just a label for a social contract sanctioned by the government. It existed before Christianity, or Judaism or Islam. So yes in order to give homosexuals equal rights under the SECULAR government that is expressly seperated from the church. It's far more logical, expediant and cost effective to just to allow gay people to "marry" rather than rewrite thousands of laws on the city, county, state and national level. And you are more than within your right to believe that it's not "real" marriage, furthermore I won't look down on you for it as I respect your personal religious beliefs.


I recommend anyone in favor of a Theocracy to renew our nation's "moral compass" should move to Saudi Arabia. I'm sure they would appreciate the MINORITY Christians crying about their rights instead of MAJORITY rule. If there's one thing the "Founders" like Jefferson and Madison got right, it was making our government a secular one. Marriage is a secular institution and a contract. No one is going to force any religious institution to perform a wedding. Just like no one is going to force a church to recognize my future non-religious, interracial marriage. The biggest threat to "sacred" marriage is divorce, yet no one wants to outlaw that.


Of course not, because it isn't convenient. I kind of touched on that earlier, there are a TON of sins that are acceptable to various religious people, but, for whatever reason ( and my guess would be that they want to believe those sins are more acceptable, because they may indeed either have already done so, or may in the future) there is NO stupid "rating" system in the Bible whether devout people want to claim there is or not. In this case they have PICKED a sin to fight, where as Divorce is common, done by MILLIONS of devout Christians, Catholics, and ANY other religious group that can readily be named so it's "lesser" SMH. Silly, hypocritical and foolish.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Tue May 20, 2014 9:53 pm

NorthHawk wrote:And all this time I thought Jesus teachings were about inclusion and acceptance...


Really?
Who is telling you that?
Jesus' "teachings" were about how, humanity is fallen, and in need of a savior, in order to avoid the righteous judgment of a Holy and perfect GOD; and how Jesus himself would take the punishment that we deserve, becoming sin, and being judged, so that we can be forgiven, and brought back into a right relationship with GOD, through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection.

As a matter of fact, the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation is all about that very thing. It's the whole point.

Inclusion, acceptance...not so much actually.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby HumanCockroach » Tue May 20, 2014 10:20 pm

NorthHawk wrote:And all this time I thought Jesus teachings were about inclusion and acceptance...


Common misconception ( at least to hear devout religious folks tell iI. God, is all about exclusion, at least to those folks) many were taught that God loves all his children ( and INDEED THAT IS in the Bible) unfortunately, some twist a sin into a bigger statement than God actually makes it ( or at least have decided to make it a platform from which to teach us heathens). God does NOT differentiate between homosexuality and striking a parent, or divorcing your wife ( among a multitude of other sins sprinkled throughout the bible) it just so happens, that one of those sins has been deemed by man to be of more importance ( which to me illustrates the hypocracy in religion perfectly) I've been told NUMEROUS times on this very board that I can not possibly know Gods will or mind ( which to be fair I absolutely agree with) yet others absolutely know Gods will and mind when it comes to the "importance" of certain sins and transgressions ( which is ALSO a transgression that members of the Church upper tiers HAVE indeed participated in, and more often than not without concent OR even someone old enough to give it). But hey, they can just say five Hail Mary's and waltz into heaven.

IMHO Religion is responsible for MORE sins and trangressions than ANY other group in the history of man kind, and as such I have a difficult time even entertaining the thought that the Church, has in anyway shape or form, a monopoly on Morality.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby nlbmsportin » Wed May 21, 2014 6:58 am

NorthHawk wrote:And all this time I thought Jesus teachings were about inclusion and acceptance...


No, there may be nothing in the world more "in-group vs out-group" than the Abrahamic religions. They pride themselves on being set apart and not "of this world". The path to "salvation" is laid out pretty clearly, and if you don't take that path you are the complete opposite of included: you face eternal oblivion.

Tolerance to someone who takes the Bible seriously is basically a signal that you lack the balls to stand up for what you believe in. Of course tolerance isn't always a good principle and taken to it's extreme leads to moral relativism (another deplorable ideology). However, intolerance at it's extreme is the most basic tenant of Western religion when it isn't watered down by softer, liberal versions. If there's one thing I'll give fundamentalists credit for, it's sticking to the absurdity of their holy texts instead of trying to hide behind interpretations and "context". Yahweh doesn't mince words when he declares things to be abominations, and doesn't make exceptions. His only lifeline was brutally sacrificing himself to himself to save fallible creatures he created from an eternal punishment he created.

To be closer to topic: I'm still waiting for a secular argument against gay marriage that can't also be used against straight marriage.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby Futureite » Wed May 21, 2014 8:54 am

nlbmsportin wrote:
NorthHawk wrote:And all this time I thought Jesus teachings were about inclusion and acceptance...


No, there may be nothing in the world more "in-group vs out-group" than the Abrahamic religions. They pride themselves on being set apart and not "of this world". The path to "salvation" is laid out pretty clearly, and if you don't take that path you are the complete opposite of included: you face eternal oblivion.

Tolerance to someone who takes the Bible seriously is basically a signal that you lack the balls to stand up for what you believe in. Of course tolerance isn't always a good principle and taken to it's extreme leads to moral relativism (another deplorable ideology). However, intolerance at it's extreme is the most basic tenant of Western religion when it isn't watered down by softer, liberal versions. If there's one thing I'll give fundamentalists credit for, it's sticking to the absurdity of their holy texts instead of trying to hide behind interpretations and "context". Yahweh doesn't mince words when he declares things to be abominations, and doesn't make exceptions. His only lifeline was brutally sacrificing himself to himself to save fallible creatures he created from an eternal punishment he created.

To be closer to topic: I'm still waiting for a secular argument against gay marriage that can't also be used against straight marriage.


Eh, even the fundamentalists apply context or interpretation. Or maybe better put, they just ignore huge sections of the old testament. For example, I cannot remember the last time I read that a man was stoned to death for growing his hair to long.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby kalibane » Wed May 21, 2014 9:08 am

Not to mention that outside maybe a handful of extreme exceptions every practicing christian is working of a version of the bible that at least went through 1600 years of translation and interpretation. When you're dogmatic adherance to the literal word has a foundation built on an interpretation (and you know it but choose to ignore that fact) how admirable can that really be?
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby nlbmsportin » Wed May 21, 2014 9:32 am

kalibane wrote:When you're dogmatic adherance to the literal word has a foundation built on an interpretation (and you know it but choose to ignore that fact) how admirable can that really be?


I'm not saying it's admirable to stick to what is usually the King James version of the Bible in areas that wouldn't lead to imprisonment. What I'm saying is that they don't move the goalposts as much as their more moderate counterparts. Of course I'd rather associate with a moderate any day and sticking to an immoral doctrine doesn't make you a better person, just a little easier to pin down.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby FolkCrusader » Wed May 21, 2014 10:04 am

monkey wrote:
NorthHawk wrote:And all this time I thought Jesus teachings were about inclusion and acceptance...


Really?
Who is telling you that?
Jesus' "teachings" were about how, humanity is fallen, and in need of a savior, in order to avoid the righteous judgment of a Holy and perfect GOD; and how Jesus himself would take the punishment that we deserve, becoming sin, and being judged, so that we can be forgiven, and brought back into a right relationship with GOD, through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection.

As a matter of fact, the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation is all about that very thing. It's the whole point.

Inclusion, acceptance...not so much actually.


I feel sorry that you are struggling in this legalistic interpretation of religion monkey. Does it not bother you that the kids you see raised in your church don't come back as adults? Does it not bother you that the congregation in your church gets smaller every year? If you want to live in the Old Testament that your choice, but the fact is virtually no one could qualify for salvation under the old laws.

Jesus not inclusive? "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." That is as inclusive as it gets, no descriptors, whoever believes. You don't have to know anything else. And the instruction to believers after the number one rule, believe in God, is Love thy neighbor as thy self. This is repeated a half dozen times at least in the Bible. The second greatest commandment. Again, completely inclusive. It does not say love thy god-fearing neighbors, its says love thy neighbor. All of them. Love does not exclude others. Love does not point out the sins of others when it is imperfect
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Thu May 22, 2014 3:17 pm

FolkCrusader wrote:
monkey wrote:
NorthHawk wrote:And all this time I thought Jesus teachings were about inclusion and acceptance...


Really?
Who is telling you that?
Jesus' "teachings" were about how, humanity is fallen, and in need of a savior, in order to avoid the righteous judgment of a Holy and perfect GOD; and how Jesus himself would take the punishment that we deserve, becoming sin, and being judged, so that we can be forgiven, and brought back into a right relationship with GOD, through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection.

As a matter of fact, the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation is all about that very thing. It's the whole point.

Inclusion, acceptance...not so much actually.


I feel sorry that you are struggling in this legalistic interpretation of religion monkey. Does it not bother you that the kids you see raised in your church don't come back as adults? Does it not bother you that the congregation in your church gets smaller every year? If you want to live in the Old Testament that your choice, but the fact is virtually no one could qualify for salvation under the old laws.

Jesus not inclusive? "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." That is as inclusive as it gets, no descriptors, whoever believes. You don't have to know anything else. And the instruction to believers after the number one rule, believe in God, is Love thy neighbor as thy self. This is repeated a half dozen times at least in the Bible. The second greatest commandment. Again, completely inclusive. It does not say love thy god-fearing neighbors, its says love thy neighbor. All of them. Love does not exclude others. Love does not point out the sins of others when it is imperfect



I feel sorry for you that you think any of what I posted there is legalistic. It is all about grace and mercy. Rightly you quoted John 3:16. Yes, he IS inclusive, he loves each and every one of us, and died for us all AS WE ARE NOW, full of sin and error. That includes homosexuals, pedophiles, murderers, child abusers etc...
That is NOT what he meant by inclusiveness, and you ought to know it.

That also doesn't mean that he wants us to stay where we are, we are supposed to grow in grace and truth, and told to "be ye perfect" as HE is.
As much as it's true that GOD is love and has mercy on all who will call on his name, he is also HOLY, and there will be a judgment. Don't confuse grace and mercy with approval of sin.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby kalibane » Thu May 22, 2014 4:11 pm

It's funny I was reading a book, a collection of essays, largly having to do with pop culture of all things but there was one essay about how people feel betrayed by culture and there were some ideas that I feel are relevant here. It's too long to quote so I will just sum it up.

Essentially the author was saying that people aren't content to have their ideals and let them dictate how they personally interact with the world. They need their ideals to "win" over the ideals that they don't agree with. So when something comes along that many people agree with but with which they personally disagree with, they end up feeling betrayed by culture. That people feel a misplaced sense of integrity by being inflexible regarding how other people live, what they enjoy and how they exist. But this is not integrity, integrity is simply living your life by your personal code and allowing other people to live life by theirs so long as neither stops the other. That you aren't wrong, but neither is the rest of the world and you will be happier if you realize that those two things aren't really interconnected.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Thu May 22, 2014 5:00 pm

Actually Kalibane, that doesn't fit me at all. I'm not trying to "win" anything, I assume that the culture will continue on it's course of self destruction, until the day comes when it will be judged.
I've read the back of the book (Revelations) I know how this all ends.
Still, I am supposed to proclaim the truth, even if it's in a losing cause, (for now).

I actually don't want a theocracy (as several of you wrongly implied) nor do I think that the Bible should be the moral compass for a nation that GOD never made a covenant with, as He did with Israel, and one which has always claimed the freedom to practice religion as each individual sees fit. (Still, I would argue that the nation's founders pointed to "natural law" as the basis for the laws that govern this land. That's a separate argument, one I would take ANYONE on anytime!)
All I am doing is telling you what the scriptures actually say about homosexuality, and about a nation that approves of it.

The nation will continue down the road of everyone doing whatever they think is right in their own minds as it teaches moral relativity (which BTW is a logic fallacy) as a virtue, to our youth in schools, and as church after church caves to the pressures of society rather than upholding GOD's Word.

And with that, I'll leave you all to your glorifying of this man who is openly flaunting his sinful behavior...I would just warn you that you all should stop LYING about who GOD is, and what he has said in his word regarding this topic. Be not deceived, GOD is not mocked.
Consider it a fair warning.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby Futureite » Thu May 22, 2014 5:15 pm

monkey wrote:Actually Kalibane, that doesn't fit me at all. I'm not trying to "win" anything, I assume that the culture will continue on it's course of self destruction, until the day comes when it will be judged.
I've read the back of the book (Revelations) I know how this all ends.
Still, I am supposed to proclaim the truth, even if it's in a losing cause, (for now).

I actually don't want a theocracy (as several of you wrongly implied) nor do I think that the Bible should be the moral compass for a nation that GOD never made a covenant with, as He did with Israel, and one which has always claimed the freedom to practice religion as each individual sees fit. (Still, I would argue that the nation's founders pointed to "natural law" as the basis for the laws that govern this land. That's a separate argument, one I would take ANYONE on anytime!)
All I am doing is telling you what the scriptures actually say about homosexuality, and about a nation that approves of it.

The nation will continue down the road of everyone doing whatever they think is right in their own minds as it teaches moral relativity (which BTW is a logic fallacy) as a virtue, to our youth in schools, and as church after church caves to the pressures of society rather than upholding GOD's Word.

And with that, I'll leave you all to your glorifying of this man who is openly flaunting his sinful behavior...I would just warn you that you all should stop LYING about who GOD is, and what he has said in his word regarding this topic. Be not deceived, GOD is not mocked.
Consider it a fair warning.


So what if he is a kickass dude in every other way but his sexuality and his scorecard in other areas jydged by god whoops you like your Hawks whooped the 49ers. Are you going to hell too? Or has god told you who is a better person. You are doing a good bit of sin flaunting yourself at this very moment by casting judgment.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Thu May 22, 2014 5:44 pm

Futureite wrote:So what if he is a kickass dude in every other way but his sexuality and his scorecard in other areas jydged by god whoops you like your Hawks whooped the 49ers. Are you going to hell too? Or has god told you who is a better person. You are doing a good bit of sin flaunting yourself at this very moment by casting judgment.


If I thought you actually wanted to know, I would get into this topic with you in the shack. I don't think you actually want to know, you are trying to be mocking, BUT for the sake of truth, and so what you just said doesn't get to stand unanswered, I'll tell you what the Bible says.

Romans 3:9-28
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

So the point then is, I'm not any better than anyone else. The only thing that separates me from an unbeliever is that, they are unbelievers.
Believers are justified by grace through faith, and that (faith) not of themselves lest any man should boast. Unbelievers are still condemned under the law, because they have not appropriated the free gift of GOD's grace and mercy for themselves.

Also, as for the not judging thing (the only verse in the Bible every non-Christian knows LOL!) what you are quoting there is taken out of context, and MUST be balanced by the fact that we are COMMANDED to use discernment between right and wrong, and to KNOW good from evil. Yes, it's true that, I am commanded NOT to judge men's hearts. Only GOD knows what is truly in a man's heart.
I am also COMMANDED to know the truth, and to judge a man by his actions.
You are confusing that verse fro what it really means in context, and in the whole counsel of the Word.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby kalibane » Thu May 22, 2014 6:08 pm

Monkey,

You are conflating glorification with minding our own business. No one here is glorifying Michael Sam or gay marriage. It just doesn't affect me, my children, my wife, my extended family or you for that matter so I don't see the point of standing in the way of secular legislation that puts them on equal footing as every other person in the country. I do think that by pushing so hard against Gay Marriage to the point that you're accusing me of stepping on your ability to live life to it's fullest simply because I don't have an axe to grind with two men saying they are married in the eyes of the secular government, that you are not satisfied if you don't "win".

For some reason you believe that allowing him to be gay without condeming him somehow affects your life. If there is a reason why that is true but I haven't been able to comprehend, you haven't done a good job of communicating it. And even if being gay is a sin against God, I have sinned equally and probably in more numerous ways (considering how much older I am) so who am I to sit in judgment? I don't sit around and type out dissertations about how wrong gambling is and it should not be legal to make a living as a professional poker player so why should I take that type of stand against gay marriage when as far as I can see it doesn't hurt anyone else? If it's wrong it's their cross to bear. And I don't see you taking that stand either. Do you get that's the problem that most of us have with your position on this topic?

Look man... honestly speaking you are probably the guy on this forum who's posts I enjoy the most. The guy I probalby feel I see eye to eye with most. But we don't agree. And it's not the end of the world. And that was the point of my previous post.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Thu May 22, 2014 6:20 pm

No one here is glorifying Michael Sam or gay marriage. It just doesn't affect me, my children, my wife


That's the trouble though, that's exactly what I've been trying to say...yes, by approving of it, you ARE glorifying it, and; it may not affect you DIRECTLY but it does in fact affect you.
First, if you do not stand against something you think is wrong, then are complicit and will be judged to be in approval by your silence. I'm making my voice heard on the topic, because I believe I love this country, fought for it, and hate seeing it heading down a path that leads to destruction.

Second, if I murder someone in another state, it didn't affect you right? So why should it matter to you if I get away with it or not?
Just because it doesn't personally affect you, doesn't mean that we should ignore the moral issues associated with murder and not condemn such actions. Murder is morally wrong, and when any moral law is broken, we are all ultimately affected; and we know that if such actions were to increase, society would be affected...no matter where you are. (And no, before anyone says it, I am NOT comparing murder and homosexuality).

Third, they are ALREADY on equal footing to everyone else. What they want is SPECIAL PRIVILEGE. They are already free to marry a person of the opposite sex, and express love, own businesses, own property, have sexual relations, receive an inheritance, etc... the same as anyone else.

Having said all of that, you're right, we can agree to disagree and still be cool with each other.

I keep trying to back out of this thread, and, I think this is where I will just back out once and for all. My opinion is CLEARLY not only the minority, but not welcome, and I should stick to talking football.

:D
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby kalibane » Thu May 22, 2014 7:08 pm

Murdering someone else doesn't affect me but it affects whoever was murdered and their family. Stealing from someone else doesn't affect me but it affects whoever was stolen from. I don't see how a man calling another man his husband affects anyone.

If I took a stand against everything I didn't agree with I'd never have time to do anything else. I don't take a stand against the Masai Tribes in Kenya treating their women as property either. It doesn't mean I'm in favor of women being property of their husbands. Not taking a stand is not glorification. That's just like saying if you aren't with us you're against us.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby HumanCockroach » Thu May 22, 2014 7:28 pm

monkey wrote:
No one here is glorifying Michael Sam or gay marriage. It just doesn't affect me, my children, my wife


That's the trouble though, that's exactly what I've been trying to say...yes, by approving of it, you ARE glorifying it, and; it may not affect you DIRECTLY but it does in fact affect you.
First, if you do not stand against something you think is wrong, then are complicit and will be judged to be in approval by your silence. I'm making my voice heard on the topic, because I believe I love this country, fought for it, and hate seeing it heading down a path that leads to destruction.

Second, if I murder someone in another state, it didn't affect you right? So why should it matter to you if I get away with it or not?
Just because it doesn't personally affect you, doesn't mean that we should ignore the moral issues associated with murder and not condemn such actions. Murder is morally wrong, and when any moral law is broken, we are all ultimately affected; and we know that if such actions were to increase, society would be affected...no matter where you are. (And no, before anyone says it, I am NOT comparing murder and homosexuality).

Third, they are ALREADY on equal footing to everyone else. What they want is SPECIAL PRIVILEGE. They are already free to marry a person of the opposite sex, and express love, own businesses, own property, have sexual relations, receive an inheritance, etc... the same as anyone else.

Having said all of that, you're right, we can agree to disagree and still be cool with each other.

I keep trying to back out of this thread, and, I think this is where I will just back out once and for all. My opinion is CLEARLY not only the minority, but not welcome, and I should stick to talking football.

:D


Are You serious Monkey, then your all the way down in the same boat with ALL of us, I dare say you don't "make a stand" against every sin in the bible, every day of your life, or you WOULDN'T HAVE A LIFE. Period, I guarantee you haven't done so, and such you are condoning every one of those sins, based on your theory. Every rape, every murder, every child that has ever struck back at his parents ( whether they beat him/ or her without fail) every single sin you "must stand up against". Ridiculous ato claim otherwise. No this is a fight against A sin, not all sin.

And I might point out, that MANY ( including the POPE, you know the LEADER of your RELIGION) who ARE believers, shall INDEED be forgiven and accepted, whether they accepted this sin or not, because they ARE believers. If you want to claim we are all going to hell, then be my guest, I've told you I am secure in my faith and belief, if it turns out that living a good life, believing, following Gods mandates, but not judging my fellow man harshly for their sins condemns me to hell, I suppose I'll have to live with that, as well as the people I love also being condemned because they showed tolerance.


BANE:

Excellent posts, must more clearly echo's my sentiments. Thanks.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Thu May 22, 2014 7:51 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:Are You serious Monkey, then your all the way down in the same boat with ALL of us, I dare say you don't "make a stand" against every sin in the bible, every day of your life, or you WOULDN'T HAVE A LIFE.


No, and I don't need to either. I don't need to point out sins in everyone's lives, GOD will do that on judgment day.

However, as a member of a free nation, where it is said that "WE THE PEOPLE" are the ones who decide what is right and wrong, rather than a King or dictator, it is IMPERATIVE that we take stands against things that GOD has specifically judged other nations for.
As I pointed out once before, GOD didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexuality, the homosexuality itself was a judgment, for denying GOD as the creator (see book of Romans), GOD destroyed the cities because of the APPROVAL of the homosexuality. Because the people approved of it, GOD destroyed it. Had there been more than just Lot standing against it, GOD would have spared the city...but it was just Lot, so GOD got Lot and his family out, and destroyed the rest.

I couldn't care LESS what Sam does in his personal life...I just couldn't care less! That's between him and GOD.
What I care intensely about is, our nation condoning it!
When the nation as a whole makes laws which allow murder (abortion) and even uses tax dollars to help fund it (tax dollars are Planned Parenthood's biggest source of income!) and then shakes it's collective tiny fist at GOD and tells HIM that marriage, (a HOLY INSTITUTION that GOD created when he created one man and one woman), is now also sacred when it's between a same sex couple, that's BLASPHEMY!!! Blasphemy of the highest order.

If we as a nation allow homosexuals to couple up in civil unions, and give them all the same rights and responsibilities...that's one thing; but if we as a nation call it MARRIAGE, and regard it as EQUAL morally to true marriage? That is blasphemy!
I keep hearing the same arguments over and over about how what they want is equal rights under the law, but that's NOT true!
They already HAVE equal rights under the law!
What they want is to REDEFINE what marriage is, and to have this new perverted version of it, condoned and approved of.
Please don't try to tell me that all they want is to have the nation itself condone it either...I PROMISE you that is not where it will end. They WILL try to force churches to condone it, and to marry them. They are already gearing up the ACLU (Anti Christian Liberties Union) to sue the pants off any Christian business who doesn't cater their so called "marriages".

This nation is teetering ever closer towards making laws which force churches to marry same sex couples. I SHUDDER to think of the kind of judgment we will reap if we condone such a thing!
Telling GOD what is and what is not HOLY? Seriously??? Who do we think we are?!?

If we as a nation tell GOD that he has no right to tell us what is and is not sacred marriage...then I will be moving as soon as I am able, in order to avoid the wrath soon to follow.

BTW HumanCockroach, first, the Pope is NOT the leader of my religion. Yeshua Ha-Mashiach, Jesus the Messiah (Christ) is the leader of my "religion".

Also, just because the Pope thinks something is true, doesn't make it so.
As a "protestant", I believe that there are several things the Pope teaches that are not only un-Biblical, but are heresy.
The Pope teaches that the Virgin Mary should be prayed to, (that is anathema) and is a co-redemtrix, and he teaches that there is a place called Purgatory. He also teaches that salvation does NOT come by faith alone, (in spite of the MOUNTAIN of scripture that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's wrong). All of those teachings are Catholic Church teachings, and NOT Biblical. They are in fact, heresy.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby HumanCockroach » Thu May 22, 2014 8:24 pm

BS Monkey, the Government isn't going to "force" the church to do any such thing, and any reasonable person would know that. If the Government can't "force" the Church to pay taxes, can't force the Church to turn over those "that have fallen to temptation" with alter boys into prison, or "force" the church to provide information about people that have confessed numerous illegal activities, they aren't "forcing" the Church to Marry homosexuals. Some churches may indeed perform ceremonies, but it won't be based on a Government edict.

There are ALREADY Churches performing the marriages, and there simply isn't any law saying they are required to do so.

Believe if you want that God is going to strike down America if you want, I am NOT going to ever agree.

Until the "Church" uniformly practices what they preach, I'm fine with NOT judging my fellow man, I'll leave you to that island, with steadily dwindling numbers. As I have said, and Bane said so elequently, that is THEIR cross to bare, not mine. The good news is, you and your family will receive passage from this country before all of us 'sinners' are turned to salt. so bully for you...
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby FolkCrusader » Thu May 22, 2014 8:59 pm

Lol, the Catholic Church teaching not biblical? I guess they used the Torah and the Koran the last couple thousand years.

Monkey, you are letting your anger make you look dumb.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Thu May 22, 2014 9:20 pm

FolkCrusader wrote:Lol, the Catholic Church teaching not biblical? I guess they used the Torah and the Koran the last couple thousand years.

Monkey, you are letting your anger make you look dumb.

Anger?
I am not angry in the least. You sound like you are though.

You do know that the Torah is the Bible right? Torah is the first five books of the Bible, known also as the Pentateuch.

So did you miss the part where I said I was a protestant, or do you not understand the difference?
See, I was pointing out that a large portion of Christians do not hold the Pope as the "leader of their religion", and pointing out where a large portion of Christians do not agree with the Pope's teachings on several points.

You see, the Catholic Church holds that, essentially anything that the Catholic Church officially teaches, is equivalent to Scriptures.
So when I say that, what they taught with Purgatory, and with the perpetual virginity of Mary, and with praying to Mary, Mary as the co-redemptrix and the doctrine of justification by works, etc...is not Biblical, I mean that quite literally...it's not.
It's extra-Biblical, Church teaching.

Nowhere in the Bible does it mention Purgatory.
The Bible does say that "it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment".
That obviously flies in the face of the doctrine of purgatory, which holds the Church teaches is a special sort of holding pen, an in between place, not Heaven, not Hell, not Earth...something punishing but not quite as bad as Hell, that you can only get out of through prayers and by paying the Church money. (You may want to give a second or two to think of how that's been abused throughout the years!)

That doctrine is extra-Biblical, by the Catholic Church's own admission. Go ask a priest, they will tell you it is Church teaching.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby savvyman » Thu May 22, 2014 9:31 pm

monkey wrote:
FolkCrusader wrote:Lol, the Catholic Church teaching not biblical? I guess they used the Torah and the Koran the last couple thousand years.

Monkey, you are letting your anger make you look dumb.

Anger?
I am not angry in the least. You sound like you are though.

Did you miss the part where I said I was a protestant, or do you not understand the difference?
See I was pointing out that, a large portion of Christians do not hold the Pope as the "leader of their religion", and pointing out where a large portion of Christians do not agree with the Pope's teachings on several points.

The Catholic Church holds that, essentially anything the Church teaches, is equivalent to Scriptures. So when I say that, what they taught with Purgatory, and with the perpetual virginity of Mary, and with Praying to Mary, and many, many other things is not Biblical, I mean that quite literally...it's not.

Nowhere in the Bible does it mention Purgatory. It does say that it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment. That flies in the face of the doctrine of purgatory, which holds that people can be purchased out of purgatory by paying the Church money. (You may want to give a second or two to think of how that's been abused throughout the years!)
That doctrine is extra-Biblical, by the Catholic Churches own admission. Go ask a priest, they will tell you it is Church teaching.

You sound unqualified to debate this topic, perhaps you shouldn't?



Look - I was raised in the religion that knows with 100% certainty that the Pope is Gods representative on earth and is infallible.

Hope you realize that you are going to Hell.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Thu May 22, 2014 9:42 pm

And....with that I really am done.
If anyone actually wants to talk about faith, seriously, here's a link that will take you to my blogspot. http://brokensoldiersministries.blogspot.com/
I've downloaded my most recent book about the Hidden Gospel in the Good Samaritan. It's one book of a larger teaching on PaRDeS understanding of how to study scripture. I haven't yet formatted it, so it's just one big lump of text more or less, but it's readable.

Oh.
Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or - simpler - interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:

Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning.
Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

In this book, obviously I am focusing on teaching how to understand Jesus' parables, which tend to fall into the Remez category.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby Futureite » Thu May 22, 2014 10:30 pm

Monkey;

I actually respect your passion for religion. And your opinions. The disagreement we have is, you believe homosexuality is a choice. I believe homosexuality is the sexual identity that people are born with. Maybe you can ask god why he created homosexuals? Or better yet, since he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, ask him why he created Satan. Seems like god has some culpability in this too lol.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby HumanCockroach » Thu May 22, 2014 10:47 pm

My only issue with Monkey in this whole thing, was his belief that I personally, along with many on here were going to hell for believing that tolerating our fellow man, was going to condemn us all. Again, a form of "judgement" that rubs me so incredibly wrong when dealing with people of devout religion. Been my experience that people that consider themselves "religious" also consider themselves superior to everyone else, giving them the right to judge them. In almost every instance I truly enjoy posting with Monkey, when it comes to belief or faith, he tends to insult me, my faith and my beliefs, or learned experiences ( whether he intends that or not is irrelevant) .

I know I should just completely avoid that subject with him, but it's like that loose tooth as a kid you can't stop messing with. Since this was a topic I started ( really to simply get varying opinions on what people felt about the reality show) I felt a little obligated to post something when I saw the thread spiral into yet another religious debate..... ah well best intentions and all, it's the off season, and this debate tends to kill time at least, what else I got to do until eternal damnation for showing tolerance? ;)
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby monkey » Thu May 22, 2014 10:49 pm

Futurite, if you really want to know, I can show you some pretty outstanding websites that can tell you.
For example, khouse.org is a fantastic teaching site. carm.org is a fantastic apologist site that has links to pretty much every frequently asked question, including the ones you just asked.
elshaddaiministries.us is a Messianic-Jewish site, which is outstanding. RZIM.org is Ravi Zaccarias' site, he's the best apologist I know of, if you watch him, I guarantee you will come away impressed with his brilliant mind.
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Re: Michael Sam, genuine good story, or money grab?

Postby Futureite » Thu May 22, 2014 10:52 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:My only issue with Monkey in this whole thing, was his belief that I personally, along with many on here were going to hell for believing that tolerating our fellow man, was going to condemn us all. Again, a form of "judgement" that rubs me so incredibly wrong when dealing with people of devout religion. Been my experience that people that consider themselves "religious" also consider themselves superior to everyone else, giving them the right to judge them. In almost every instance I truly enjoy posting with Monkey, when it comes to belief or faith, he tends to insult me, my faith and my beliefs, or learned experiences ( whether he intends that or not is irrelevant) .

I know I should just completely avoid that subject with him, but it's like that loose tooth as a kid you can't stop messing with. Since this was a topic I started ( really to simply get varying opinions on what people felt about the reality show) I felt a little obligated to post something when I saw the thread spiral into yet another religious debate..... ah well best intentions and all, it's the off season, and this debate tends to kill time at least, what else I got to do until eternal damnation for showing tolerance? ;)


Hey it is interesting to see why people think this way. I don't think anyone believes you hate Monkey. Everyone gets heated now and again.
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