OT: Tua another concussion

[4XPIPS]

The hit doesn't look at all that crazy, but with Tua's history with concussions, it wasn't a surprise for me to see him not get up right away. The way his arms were extended out while he was on the ground, honestly sent chills down my back. There is no way he should be cleared to play football anymore, his long term health is too vital to his well being. Reminds me of Luke Kuechly with his career being shortened due to head trauma. I feel bad for Tua, but this has to be end for him.

[River Dog]

A lot of former NFL players are calling on Tua to retire as well.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/576458 ... etirement/

It would seem that some players are more susceptible to concussions than others, and Tua appears to be one of those guys. I'm wondering if there's a way to determine that susceptibility, if it exists, prior to a person engaging in the sport.

Although no one wants to see opposing players get injured even if it has a direct benefit to their team, I can't help noting that the Dolphin's next game is against our Seahawks. Miami looked horrible last night with or without Tua, so this game next week gets elevated to the winnable category.

On the other hand, the Dolphins will have a mini bye this week, so they'll have a little extra time to prepare.

[c_hawkbob]

It's not my right or responsibility to tell him to retire but if I were him I would.

[NorthHawk]

Apparently there was a big discussion amongst his family 2 years ago when he had a couple of concussions in one year so maybe this will cause them to pressure him to make that decision.

[Aseahawkfan]

I could not give up the millions. I have to come back. There isn't another job I can do to earn that kind of money.

Tua should probably retire for his long-term health, but I know I couldn't give up the dough. It's too much life-changing dough. I'd would consider it worth the risk.

[NorthHawk]

At least try to stick it out for a year to get the guaranteed portion of his contract. It's a game these guys love and to get so close to the brass ring might just be enough for him to come back.
But from a health perspective, he should hang 'em up.

[4XPIPS]

He should be wearing the guardian cap, who cares how ugly it looks. If the guardian cap has data prove it can lessen head trauma, then why not make it mandatory. If all were wearing it, it would be just time before we get used to looking at it.

[c_hawkbob]

He should be wearing the guardian cap, who cares how ugly it looks. If the guardian cap has data prove it can lessen head trauma, then why not make it mandatory. If all were wearing it, it would be just time before we get used to looking at it.

It looks to me now like hockey helmets looked when they first started wearing them, now seeing old clips of Bobby Clark or someone looks weird seeing them without one.

[River Dog]

One of the things that perplexes me is why is Tua so subject to concussions? Those aren't particularly violent hits he's been taking, and his style of play isn't that different than other running quarterbacks like Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, and Kyler Murray. The positions that are most susceptible to concussion injuries are wide receiver and cornerbacks where the collisions involve more speed, one of the reasons why they've implemented the new kickoff rule.

I came across a study that investigates if there is something genetic in certain people that would make them more susceptible to concussions. From the article:

"We screened the entire genome and were able to identify two genes that were associated with concussion," Kim said. "Most people have normal versions of these genes, but about 1% of the population have differences, or variants, that indicate they may be at increased risk."

The genes, SPATA5 and PLXNA4, are intriguing. PLXNA4 is a well-known gene in neurobiology research. It encodes a protein that is important during neurodevelopment by helping neurons make connections within the brain, and variants in the gene have been previously associated with an increased risk for Alzheimer's disease. And people with a deletion of SPATA5 are severely intellectually disabled, with hearing loss and vision impairment.

"When you have a concussion, you can experience visual and auditory disturbances," Kim said. "These are the same systems affected in people with a SPATA5 deletion. So now we have a possible mechanistic link between what is known from mainstream neurobiology research and concussion. No one would have guessed this link before this study, but the findings make sense."

Predicting concussion risk

Kim and Abrams are eager to study whether it's possible to predict which athletes or members of the military are likely to be at higher risk of concussion, and to implement interventions prior to injury such as targeted neck muscle strengthening or the use of specially designed protective equipment such as helmets or headbands.

"If we are able to clinically identify people at increased risk for concussion based on an underlying genetic predisposition, this has the potential to alter current prevention and treatment paradigms," Abrams said.

https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2020/11/ ... your-risk/

The article is nearly 2 years old, so I wonder if their research has gotten any closer to identifying a risk factor.

[c_hawkbob]

The violence of a hit is not always readily apparent by observation. The wreck that killed Dale Earnhardt was a pretty pedestrian looking crash by NASCAR standards. It'd be interesting if Tua carried either of those genes (as well as a much more persuasive reason to retire) but I wouldn't expect it.

[River Dog]

The violence of a hit is not always readily apparent by observation. The wreck that killed Dale Earnhardt was a pretty pedestrian looking crash by NASCAR standards. It'd be interesting if Tua carried either of those genes (as well as a much more persuasive reason to retire) but I wouldn't expect it.

What you say is true. The visually observed violence of the collision isn't always a good indicator if a concussion could have resulted. But the types of collisions Tua has sustained concussions from are very routine. He sustained one of them by just being pushed backwards and falling down, his butt and shoulder pads hitting the ground before his helmet. And keep in mind that the helmets players wear today absorb quite a bit more energy than those you and I wore back in the 70's.

I think that it is a near certainty that there is something unique going on with Tua for him to be sustaining the concussions that he has. If he continues to play, it's inevitable that he's going to sustain another, and the next time, he may not get up and walk away from it. Should he be allowed to play again, or should the league permanently disqualify him? I'm beginning to lean towards a permanent disqualification.

[Aseahawkfan]

I do not think the league should disqualify Tua. But I do think they should advise him to retire, ensure he has signed a legal document that he has been advised to retire, and then let him make his decision. Some people consider life changing money worth the risks. If they do, that is up to them.

[River Dog]

I do not think the league should disqualify Tua. But I do think they should advise him to retire, ensure he has signed a legal document that he has been advised to retire, and then let him make his decision. Some people consider life changing money worth the risks. If they do, that is up to them.

I can see both sides. Yes, Tua is a grown adult and should be allowed to make decisions that impact his life. I know how I would react if someone told me that I couldn't drink a beer because it's unhealthy for me.

But on the other hand, the league has a moral obligation as an employer not to subject at-risk employees to known hazards that may cause them permanent harm even if they are fully aware of the risks. Are you going to let an 8-month pregnant woman palletize 50 lb cases even if she knows the risks and wants to?

[Aseahawkfan]

I can see both sides. Yes, Tua is a grown adult and should be allowed to make decisions that impact his life. I know how I would react if someone told me that I couldn't drink a beer because it's unhealthy for me.

But on the other hand, the league has a moral obligation as an employer not to subject at-risk employees to known hazards that may cause them permanent harm even if they are fully aware of the risks. Are you going to let an 8-month pregnant woman palletize 50 lb cases even if she knows the risks and wants to?

Tua is an individual not putting anyone but himself at risk. Millions of dollars are at stake. The NFL is dangerous enough you could apply this criteria to every player but maybe kickers. Football is dangerous. It's part of the reason why we watch I would think. It's our American brutal group war sport. Take ground, physically dominate your opponent, work as a team almost like a military unit. No use pretending the employer has an obligation to safety anymore than we pretend that in boxing or any other similar business like infantry or something. Being unsafe is part of the job and you can't only improve that marginally. Anyone going in should know that. It's not like you play football at the pro level and go, "I didn't know people would try to wreck me when they tackle me. I better get out of this sport."

That would be like a boxer being surprised when someone is trying to punch your face in.

You chose an unsafe occupation, then don't be surprised when you get smashed. So don't even bring employer obligation for things like football or boxing or MMA. You know what you're getting into and made the choice to play a dangerous game. You don't get to claim employer obligation after that. You just have to make decisions as no one is forcing a person to play football and it isn't some required job we can't do without.

[River Dog]

I can see both sides. Yes, Tua is a grown adult and should be allowed to make decisions that impact his life. I know how I would react if someone told me that I couldn't drink a beer because it's unhealthy for me.

But on the other hand, the league has a moral obligation as an employer not to subject at-risk employees to known hazards that may cause them permanent harm even if they are fully aware of the risks. Are you going to let an 8-month pregnant woman palletize 50 lb cases even if she knows the risks and wants to?

Tua is an individual not putting anyone but himself at risk. Millions of dollars are at stake. The NFL is dangerous enough you could apply this criteria to every player but maybe kickers. Football is dangerous. It's part of the reason why we watch I would think. It's our American brutal group war sport. Take ground, physically dominate your opponent, work as a team almost like a military unit. No use pretending the employer has an obligation to safety anymore than we pretend that in boxing or any other similar business like infantry or something. Being unsafe is part of the job and you can't only improve that marginally. Anyone going in should know that. It's not like you play football at the pro level and go, "I didn't know people would try to wreck me when they tackle me. I better get out of this sport."

That would be like a boxer being surprised when someone is trying to punch your face in.

You chose an unsafe occupation, then don't be surprised when you get smashed. So don't even bring employer obligation for things like football or boxing or MMA. You know what you're getting into and made the choice to play a dangerous game. You don't get to claim employer obligation after that. You just have to make decisions as no one is forcing a person to play football and it isn't some required job we can't do without.

Committing suicide doesn't put others at risk, either, but I won't sit by and let a stranger jump out a window. Why do we have seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws? If I splatter my head on the pavement like a grapefruit it doesn't hurt anyone else. You can even make an argument that you're doing the government a favor by dying early and not causing the taxpayer to pay your SS and Medicare.

If you're the Miami Dolphins, do you let Tua come back knowing that they might be putting themselves in legal jeopardy if he were not to get back up from his next concussion?

Like I said, I can see both sides. It's a classic dilemma.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Employers can certainly prohibit certain activities based on a variety of conditions to protect themselves, but, there's really no liability here anymore for the NFL. The concussion lawsuit went through. CTE issues are at the forefront of safety policy. I would assume Tua has had to sign somewhere that he's aware of his concussions, that's he's aware of the danger his history poses and the NFL is held harmless if he chooses to continue to play.

I hate to see it though. Kuechley was carted off the field looking like he had no idea who or where he was. That's scary stuff. It's the players' call though.

[Aseahawkfan]

Committing suicide doesn't put others at risk, either, but I won't sit by and let a stranger jump out a window. Why do we have seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws? If I splatter my head on the pavement like a grapefruit it doesn't hurt anyone else. You can even make an argument that you're doing the government a favor by dying early and not causing the taxpayer to pay your SS and Medicare.

If you're the Miami Dolphins, do you let Tua come back knowing that they might be putting themselves in legal jeopardy if he were not to get back up from his next concussion?

Like I said, I can see both sides. It's a classic dilemma.

These are not comparable in the slightest. I'm not sure why you bring them up.

Professional sports are completely optional and unnecessary. You keep avoiding the issue of millions of dollars. Professional NFL QB if you have that set of abilities is a lotto ticket. You're forcing a guy to give up a lotto ticket to protect his long-term health? Sorry, but isn't the same at all. Millions of dollars, life changing for your family and future.

The NFL should indemnify themselves, but no way should they force a guy to give up a lotto ticket job that he's one of the few able to do at a high enough level to make millions. Let that guy choose. If he wants to keep going, he keeps going.

We do differ on suicide. I'd maybe try to talk them out of it, but if a person wants to go they should be allowed to go. You should not be able to stop someone from offing themselves other than a conversation. If they seem like they have rational reasons for wanting to be done with life, you let them do it. This idea you have in your head of padding the entire world is a tiresome one. It is not your responsibility to protect someone else doing something for rational reasons. You can put safety laws in place to an extent, but padding the world is nothing I want to see.

Let people live and die as they wish. NFL QB is an amazing life and amount of money. I say let the dude choose. He can work on how to protect himself. Or he can choose to retire to protect his health. Up to him. No way I force that on the person. That would be denial of liberty. They can make their own rational choice.

Personally, I'd keep playing. I'd try to play safer, but hell, I get one shot at NFL QB at a high level. One life to do it. I'm going to do it if I have that capability. Plenty of people suffer worse for doing less. You can get hurt doing a down and dirty job for peanuts. Military guys get paid jack squat for going into war zones and risking their lives, often under orders. Then get some meager compensation for their injuries or loss of life.

Now some NFL QB gets millions for risking a concussion or limb injury on top of glory and fans. Easy price for me to pay. Should be left up to Tua.

[River Dog]

Employers can certainly prohibit certain activities based on a variety of conditions to protect themselves, but, there's really no liability here anymore for the NFL. The concussion lawsuit went through. CTE issues are at the forefront of safety policy. I would assume Tua has had to sign somewhere that he's aware of his concussions, that's he's aware of the danger his history poses and the NFL is held harmless if he chooses to continue to play.

I hate to see it though. Kuechley was carted off the field looking like he had no idea who or where he was. That's scary stuff. It's the players' call though.

I'm not sure what kind of legal liability that the Dolphins and the league have. All I know is that if, heaven forbid, Tua is allowed to play and suffers a head injury that renders him a vegetable or kills him, all hell is going to break loose. They'll start comparing football to Roman gladiators, where the crowd gets a thrill out of seeing one man kill another or eaten by a lion. Everything I've read on the subject suggests that the occurrence of one concussion increases the chances and the severity of subsequent concussions. Tua is sustaining concussions from simply falling down.

It gets back to the question of whether or not an employer has a moral responsibility to protect their employees from known hazards even if that employee is willing to take the risk. In situations like this, I've always been taught that you error on the side of safety. If I'm a supervisor and one of my employees wants to file a grievance against me because I prohibited them from performing what I considered a dangerous job for them, then I'll take my chances in front of the union or whoever else is there to pass judgement on my decision. It would be a lot better than looking at myself in the mirror and thinking that I was at least partially to blame for a serious accident or death of another human being.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

You’re not wrong, but it’s two very different worlds. Perhaps a players situation could get bad enough that the NFL will force them out, we haven’t seen it yet. There's no doubt in my mind that Tua has been checked out thoroughly in every instance of a concussion and has been well informed of the risks of continuing to play. Word is he’s seeing a neurologist right now. I would hope there’s a strong recommendation to hang it up.

[River Dog]

You’re not wrong, but it’s two very different worlds. Perhaps a players situation could get bad enough that the NFL will force them out, we haven’t seen it yet. There's no doubt in my mind that Tua has been checked out thoroughly in every instance of a concussion and has been well informed of the risks of continuing to play. Word is he’s seeing a neurologist right now. I would hope there’s a strong recommendation to hang it up.

If you don't like that analogy, here's another, a real-life example about Bennie Paret, a boxer defending his welterweight championship of which I have a vague recollection of the event:

It quickly became apparent that Paret was dazed by the initial shots and could not defend himself, but referee Ruby Goldstein allowed (Emile) Griffith to continue his assault. Finally, after 29 consecutive punches, which knocked Paret through the ropes at one point, Goldstein stepped in and called a halt to the bout.[8]

Paret collapsed in the corner from the barrage of punches (initially thought to be from exhaustion), fell into a coma, and died ten days later at Roosevelt Hospital in Manhattan from massive brain hemorrhaging.[5][9][10] Paret was buried at St. Raymond's New Cemetery, Bronx, New York on April 7, 1962.

So you're the referee and have the power to stop the fight. You know that the boxer doesn't want to give up, but you stop the fight for his own good. What the difference between that and the NFL trotting Tua back out there, knowing full well that there is an extreme risk of his suffering a serious, perhaps life-threatening injury?

My analogies may not be completely relevant to the situation with Tua. For example, the boxer likely wasn't aware of his circumstance whereas Tua is. But the moral/emotional aspect sure as hell is. You as a human being have the power to intervene and save another human being's life, and you choose not to. I don't know about you or anyone else, but the fact that the subject was fully aware of the consequences would not be much consolation if I knew I could have intervened and saved his life but took the path of least resistance and gave my consent rather than having the balls to say "NO!"

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

It’s not about liking or not liking your analogy; I understand where you are coming from. I just think the NFL has settled the matter.

They already pull players from games if they don’t clear concussion protocol and they don’t let them come back until they do. In that sense, they are the boxing ref that throws in the towel.

The NFL is doing everything but barring players who have a history of concussions. If Tua is cleared and decides to keep playing despite recommendations otherwise, I don’t know if there’s anything left to do about it. He’ll be aware of the risks and doing it of his own free will.

[NorthHawk]

There was a report this morning that Tua isn’t going to retire, but I would think that his family hasn’t yet been fully heard.

[4XPIPS]

There was a report this morning that Tua isn’t going to retire, but I would think that his family hasn’t yet been fully heard.

Jabril Peppers was wearing the guardian cap today for the Patriots. It doesn't look all that bad. I hope Tua makes the best decision for himself, and he should just wear the guardian cap. It's crazy the amount of rumors of Tom Brady coming out of retirement to play for the Dolphins.