49ers @ Hawks

[4XPIPS]

Well I might as well start this now. I am off on a 14 hr flight to the LAX. Taking a flight up to SeaTac and going to the home game. Hopefully I can bring some luck and they can pull this win off. Last time I went to a home Seahawks game is when Terrell Owen’s pulled off the famous sharpie act. It was a MNF game, many years ago.

[River Dog]

Well I might as well start this now. I am off on a 14 hr flight to the LAX. Taking a flight up to SeaTac and going to the home game. Hopefully I can bring some luck and they can pull this win off. Last time I went to a home Seahawks game is when Terrell Owen’s pulled off the famous sharpie act. It was a MNF game, many years ago.

Wow, you've been away a long time. That Sharpie incident had to have been well over 20 years ago. You should have good weather; a sweater or light jacket should be all you need. No rain in the forecast.

I had penciled this one in as a win, but after witnessing that sordid performance against a 2nd division team last Sunday, the pessimism in me has returned. We'll still be missing several key players on defense. Nwosu looks like he's heading to IR, so he'll be out at least another 4 games. Derrick Hall, Byron Murphy, and Riq Wollen didn't practice, so they're likely out, too. Mafe was a full participant in practice, so he should be in the lineup.

It will be interesting to see if Grubbs changes his game plan from that failed one he trotted out last Sunday. Take out Geno's scrambles and he called nearly 90% passing plays.

[Spohawk5092]

if we perform anywhere near as bad as last Sunday, this could be HIDEOUS. 49ers have owned us for the past 2 years.

[c_hawkbob]

if we perform anywhere near as bad as last Sunday, this could be HIDEOUS. 49ers have owned us for the past 2 years.

They didn't look so good last week either. I don't expect either team to look as bad as they did last week.

[Aseahawkfan]

49ers don't look as good as past years. This is a divisional game, so we'll see if Mike can get people ramped for a divisional game. I expect to lose, but 49ers have problems too so maybe we pull off a win. Starting to look like the Cards may be the team to compete against this year unless the 49ers get healthy. The 49ers are so reliant on key pieces of talent like Deebo or McCaffrey, if they are missing any of their pieces they fall off a lot.

[Aseahawkfan]

That sucked. Our talent is a long ways off and it shows.

[Spohawk5092]

That sucked. Our talent is a long ways off and it shows.

that, and after playing 3 easy teams, with good results, when it came to the better teams, we are still learning the new systems, and have fallen back to earth.

[curmudgeon]

Yikes! Looking at the remaining schedule Seattle may have a selection in the top ten next draft. Perhaps even top five…..

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

that, and after playing 3 easy teams, with good results, when it came to the better teams, we are still learning the new systems, and have fallen back to earth

I hope you're right, but what troubled me was Geno looking off from go. This well before he could have been rattled. The 49ers secondary isn't amazing; the passing game should have been more effective given the talent and experience on our offense.

[Aseahawkfan]

that, and after playing 3 easy teams, with good results, when it came to the better teams, we are still learning the new systems, and have fallen back to earth.

We'll see if Mike can get it turned around somewhat with a talent deficit.

I'm not a big system guy. Talent trumps system. This is football. They know how to run routes and do the thing.

It seems to me that our guys are either getting beat outright and partially due to the pile of injuries to starters which further depletes the talent pool or our coaches our getting outcoached not adapting to the strategies being used to stop them or some combination of the two. That's my main concern with coaches is the opponent finds an exploit, you either lack the talent or coaching ability to counter.

[NorthHawk]

This is a transition year and as expected, players are making mistakes. Talent may trump systems but when systems are not well ingrained, even more talented players are either slow off the mark or make mistakes. It took the Ravens players the better part of the first year to be comfortable with the new Defense and I would expect a less talented team to take at least as long.

[Aseahawkfan]

This is a transition year and as expected, players are making mistakes. Talent may trump systems but when systems are not well ingrained, even more talented players are either slow off the mark or make mistakes. It took the Ravens players the better part of the first year to be comfortable with the new Defense and I would expect a less talented team to take at least as long.

And we're injured as well. These aren't minor player injuries, but major starters on defense along what we thought were be our strongest unit. Hard to make your defense work when you're D-line and pass rushers are hurt and you're playing a back up.

[River Dog]

All that glitters is not gold.

Our defense isn't getting turnovers, with a big fat zero Thursday night while Geno threw two bad picks. Plus, we rightfully should have been charged with a third turnover as the muffed punt should have been given to the Niners, and it would have likely resulted in another 3-7 points. A friend of mine pointed out that we haven't had an interception since Week 1 when we were up against rookie Bo Nix in his first NFL game. After a while, the injury excuse begins to wear thin.

And as much complaining that we did about not running the ball in the Giants game last Sunday, Grubbs gave us what we asked for and the result was 19 running plays for a measly 52 yards.

The schedule gets tougher from here on out. Perhaps Vegas was right after all when they set the over/under on our wins this season at 7.5.

[NorthHawk]

Injuries aren't an excuse, they are a fact.
Players that are 2nd or 3rd string are that because they aren't good enough to be starters. Add to that the limited depth compared to the best teams and we are playing on thin ice.
It's going to take a couple of years to get the players (especially on Defense) that fit what MacDonald wants to do. On Offense, we have to shore up the IOL but I doubt Schneider ever will. If he hasn't done it in 14 years there's no reason to expect him to do it now.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yep. The injuries on defense are substantial. I don't think we'll see the run defense improve much until we have a healthy D-line and rebuild the LB corps. The fall off in LBs correlates with the drop in run defense. Not having a high quality MLB seems to be a pretty important element in a defense.

The offense should be doing better. I think Geno's ceiling was reached a few years ago and this is pretty much the best we can expect or worse.

[c_hawkbob]

The offenses problem are still primarily the O-line. Can't run block, can't pass block (as a unit anyway). Until we fix that everyone is going to look bad.

[Aseahawkfan]

The offenses problem are still primarily the O-line. Can't run block, can't pass block (as a unit anyway). Until we fix that everyone is going to look bad.

Has the O-line ever been good under Schneider? These guys have tried for years to draft O-line and we never seem to do it. Seems we been complaining about the O-line since Carroll and Schneider arrived to now.

[River Dog]

Injuries aren't an excuse, they are a fact.
Players that are 2nd or 3rd string are that because they aren't good enough to be starters. Add to that the limited depth compared to the best teams and we are playing on thin ice.
It's going to take a couple of years to get the players (especially on Defense) that fit what MacDonald wants to do. On Offense, we have to shore up the IOL but I doubt Schneider ever will. If he hasn't done it in 14 years there's no reason to expect him to do it now.

Of course, it's a fact. But whether you consider them a fact or an excuse (they can be both), I get tired of hearing about it. The Niners were without CMC, but I don't see any of us mentioning that 'fact'. I wonder what the game would have looked like had he played. It's giving me the same feeling I got when my fellow 12's would complain about the East Coast Jinx and having to travel further than any other team. It's part of the game.

I'm not totally bummed about the past 3 games. After we won our first three to open the season, I thought that we might be a contender as each season has its surprise teams, and I thought that we might be one of those teams. But we've come back down to my original expectations, ie a .500ish first season, perhaps a wild card berth and early exit from the playoffs.

We're into Week 6, so the strength of schedule is beginning to look a little clearer. 3 of our next 4 games will feature teams with a 3-2 record going into this Sunday, so I'll be happy if we get a split.

[River Dog]

The offenses problem are still primarily the O-line. Can't run block, can't pass block (as a unit anyway). Until we fix that everyone is going to look bad.

Agreed. I also agree with many of my friends that it's been a perpetual problem under the previous regime. But I'm not ready to lay it on Schneider as Pete was the man calling the shots.

I don't understand why we're not giving Haynes more PT at right guard. On Thursday, he only got 10% of the snaps vs. Anthony Bradford's 90%. With as badly as Bradford has struggled, especially in pass pro, you would think that we'd give our 3rd round pick a shot.

[NorthHawk]

Pete had final say, but with the history of the OL personnel changes and JS's stated disdain for IOL, it seems to me he's more than agreeable with that philosophy.

[Aseahawkfan]

Pete had final say, but with the history of the OL personnel changes and JS's stated disdain for IOL, it seems to me he's more than agreeable with that philosophy.

And final say doesn't mean he always over-rode John. I doubt John and Pete would have had the relationship they had if Pete was constantly overriding him.

We have spent a lot of high picks on O-line. I'm honestly not sure why so many have not worked out well. Injuries account for some of the reason. But most haven't worked out well. They also don't stay together long as we continue to draft O-line and push them in. We definitely don't seem to like to pay for O-line, even our own draft picks.

[NorthHawk]

If I recall correctly we drafted a lot of Tackles early, but not IOL and tried to slide them inside when they failed on the edges with limited success. OL need to play together to become a good unit, but with the constant changeover, it makes it difficult to become a cohesive group. Over the years we’ve passed over some very good Guards and Centers early, instead opting for selecting lesser talented players later.
It’s been going on for so long that it looks like a philosophy and not just bad drafting.

[Aseahawkfan]

We haven't drafted too many high guards. Wasn't Carpenter a guard that we drafted and converted to tackle, then back to guard when he failed at tackle? We usually do 3rd round or lower guards. Not sure if that is a pretty standard position for a guard. Holmgren tended to like O-line. Our left side was at least high round draft picks under Holmgren. We also had a generational talent at LT and another Hall of Fame talent at LG. We got very used to that.

The Pete and John regime have never been great at drafting along the lines. Not a single Hall of Fame talent along either line with 14 years of drafting. Legendary secondary. Hall of Fame LB and great LB corps. Great QB. Good WRs. But no matter how many high picks they used, the lines were lacking and they had to find outside talent to bolster the line or retain a talent drafted from the previous regime like Mebane. Our best O-line guys were Okung and Unger. Okung they let walk after his rookie contract. Unger they traded.

Not sure if Schneider has a blind spot for D and O-line talent.

[River Dog]

We haven't drafted too many high guards. Wasn't Carpenter a guard that we drafted and converted to tackle, then back to guard when he failed at tackle? We usually do 3rd round or lower guards. Not sure if that is a pretty standard position for a guard. Holmgren tended to like O-line. Our left side was at least high round draft picks under Holmgren. We also had a generational talent at LT and another Hall of Fame talent at LG. We got very used to that.

The Pete and John regime have never been great at drafting along the lines. Not a single Hall of Fame talent along either line with 14 years of drafting. Legendary secondary. Hall of Fame LB and great LB corps. Great QB. Good WRs. But no matter how many high picks they used, the lines were lacking and they had to find outside talent to bolster the line or retain a talent drafted from the previous regime like Mebane. Our best O-line guys were Okung and Unger. Okung they let walk after his rookie contract. Unger they traded.

Not sure if Schneider has a blind spot for D and O-line talent.

You're probably thinking of Germain Ifedi. I seem to recall jacking him around from tackle to guard then back to tackle. James Carpenter was a tackle in college, was drafted as a tackle, and played his first season for us at that position. Once he proved to be completely ineffective at tackle, we slid him into guard, where he wasn't all that great, either, getting beat out by a journeyman named Paul McQuistan during our Lombardi season. It was a similar story with Justin Britt, except that Britt spent time at all three positions.

Whether it's Pete or JS, we don't have a lot of respect for offensive linemen, especially guards and centers. I honestly think that we regard the interior line as a safety net for busted tackles, so that we don't have to admit to having made a mistake in drafting them.

[NorthHawk]

Both Ifedi and Carpenter were drafted as Tackles. They didn't give Ifedi enough time to develop since he came from an Air Raid Offense and rarely played with his hand in the dirt. He went from a 1 or 2 page playbook to an NFL playbook and was expected to learn both Tackle and Guard responsibilities in a hybrid blocking scheme where he needed to learn both man blocking and zone blocking. It's no wonder he was often off side as he had to think what his assignment was every play and who he was going against all the while learning how to play in a 3 point stance.
They tried him at Tackle, Guard and back to tackle then back again at Guard then gave up on him. I think with his athleticism he could have had a decent career if he only played 1 position and learned it fully. Now he's simply a backup Guard who bounces from team to team every year.

[Stream Hawk]

Britt and Pocic were both kind of guards. I’m really hoping Schneider has learned his lesson and we begin to build from the trenches. Haynes blossoming into a legit starter this season would be huge. Or possibly trading DK for the KC guard. If not, I think he’ll be fired at the end of the season.

[River Dog]

Britt and Pocic were both kind of guards. I’m really hoping Schneider has learned his lesson and we begin to build from the trenches. Haynes blossoming into a legit starter this season would be huge. Or possibly trading DK for the KC guard. If not, I think he’ll be fired at the end of the season.

Justin Britt played 3 full seasons as a tackle at Missouri, we drafted him as a tackle, and he spent his entire rookie season as our starting right tackle. He performed poorly in his first year, so we slid him to guard where he spent another full season. In his 3rd season, we moved him to center, where he seemed to find a home and had a decent couple of seasons and earned a 2nd contract, one of the few we've given to an offensive lineman. Later, Pete claimed that it was our intention all along to move Britt to center, but it took him two seasons to get him there, so that seems a little far-fetched IMO.

[NorthHawk]

Pocic was a well regarded Center coming out of College but they tried him at Guard and rarely gave him a chance to play and develop at Center. Now he’s a solid Center in I think Cleveland and has been extended there and we again scrambled to find a good Center. We took a chance on Williams coming off of an injury but it remains to be seen if we will offer enough money to extend him. Meanwhile we don’t yet know what we have in Olu who played well in College so it’s possible in a couple of years we will again be scrambling for a starting Center. That’s.been the MO for the last decade so there’s little reason to think things will change.

[Aseahawkfan]

Olu doesn't seem to have the physical ability to handle the trenches, which was his knock coming out of college.

[Stream Hawk]

I've heard that Haynes also doesn't have the physical strength either. Per Grubb himself. Which is interesting since they drafted him. Maybe he's literally hitting the gym and then will take over later this season.

But yeah, this perpetual OL weakness needs to be figured out.

[NorthHawk]

It’s not uncommon for linemen coming from College needing to get stronger. Maybe Haynes just needs a few months or so to get stronger. I hope that’s the solution.

[c_hawkbob]

Here's a short but pretty good breakdown of our O-line woes this year: https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=909737551214849

[NorthHawk]

Forsythe is a player I can forgive because he’s the third option but I wonder why they aren’t using a TE along side him almost every play as he’s not up to the task. The others just show how bad the talent on the IOL is.

[River Dog]

Forsythe is a player I can forgive because he’s the third option but I wonder why they aren’t using a TE along side him almost every play as he’s not up to the task. The others just show how bad the talent on the IOL is.

I'm with North Hawk on this one. I can have some sympathy for Forsythe, not only because he's 3rd on the depth chart, but also because tackle is a tougher position to play as you're going up against guys like Bosa and Hutchinson in more space. We have an option at right guard in Christain Haynes, who's seen some PT but hasn't been given a chance to start. At the very least, they need to send a signal to the team that they're not going to continue to reward substandard play by trotting them out there game after game, especially when they have a 3rd round draft pick waiting in the wings.

[NorthHawk]

I get the impression that they don't think Haynes is ready to play yet.

There was a comment earlier in the year when a player showed up out of shape for TC and according to what I read MacDonald said something along the lines of 'if you didn't have such a large signing bonus, I'd cut you right now'.
Was it Haynes that the comment was directed to? I never found out.