Hawks vs. Jets

[River Dog]

Yeah, Metcalf had another disappointing game. He was non-existent in the first half, didn't make a single catch. For the game, he was targeted 9 times and came up with just 4 of them. On one reception, he bobbled it, which caused him to come up short of a first down, and on another, he failed to turn up field and get the extra yard he needed for a first down. At one point, he comes out of the game with what appeared to be a serious leg injury then suddenly bolts onto the field like Superman out of a phone booth as if nothing happened.

This week, he had 4 catches for 66 yards, no TD's. Last week, he had 4 catches for 59 yards, no TD's. He hasn't scored a TD since Week 7 against the Falcons. He hasn't had a 100-yard receiving game since Week 4 vs. the Lions. Whether it's our scheme, if he has a nagging injury, or whatever, he's not producing.

DK has never had great hands. Heck he fumbled back to back weeks earlier this season. However, if he isn't catching passes he is still a threat to have on the field. Our offense is much better with him on the field, and defenses have to bracket him when he is out there, which at at times draws a corner and a deep safety and this is freeing up one on ones with JSN, and hence why we are seeing the emergence of JSN. DK has the ability to take the top off on every play, so having him out there whether he catches 3 balls or 9 it's enough to affect the defense. Plus he put a nasty block early on that resulted on a TD drive.

I agree I would like to see DK make the necessary plays when we need him to step up, but his presence out there is opening the game up for JSN.

That's a pretty expensive decoy. JSN has had a couple of decent games, but not the great ones that you'd expect if Metcalf were drawing as much attention as you're saying he does. Today, JSN had 4 catches for 74 yards and no TD's. Last week, he had 6 catches for 77 yards and 1 TD.

This offense isn't producing. Take out the two pick 6's, and the last two games our offense has scored just 31 points. The offense hasn't scored over 21 points for the past 5 games.

The bottom line is that our offense is struggling, and IMO part of it is that for one reason or another, Metcalf isn't producing.

[4XPIPS]

That's a pretty expensive decoy. JSN has had a couple of decent games, but not the great ones that you'd expect if Metcalf were drawing as much attention as you're saying he does. Today, JSN had 4 catches for 74 yards and no TD's. Last week, he had 6 catches for 77 yards and 1 TD.

This offense isn't producing. Take out the two pick 6's, and the last two games our offense has scored just 31 points. The offense hasn't scored over 21 points for the past 5 games.

The bottom line is that our offense is struggling, and IMO part of it is that for one reason or another, Metcalf isn't producing.

If and when the time comes to extend DK to a bigger contract, I am all for letting him test FA and walk. However, for now I say use him anyway we can because he is helping this offense even if he is an expensive decoy. I don't disagree our offense has taken a step back, but then again it appears to me we are trying to run more on 1st downs, and I see a little less of this hurry up offense we saw so earlier in the season. Albeit, our run game is still pretty poor they are still trying to go to it more. But HEY Geno didn't throw an INT, so that's something to celebrate.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, Metcalf had another disappointing game. He was non-existent in the first half, didn't make a single catch. For the game, he was targeted 9 times and came up with just 4 of them. On one reception, he bobbled it, which caused him to come up short of a first down, and on another, he failed to turn up field and get the extra yard he needed for a first down. At one point, he comes out of the game with what appeared to be a serious leg injury then suddenly bolts onto the field like Superman out of a phone booth as if nothing happened.

This week, Metcalf had 4 catches for 66 yards, no TD's. Last week, he had 4 catches for 59 yards, no TD's. He hasn't scored a TD since Week 7 against the Falcons. He hasn't had a 100-yard receiving game since Week 4 vs. the Lions. Whether it's our scheme, if he has a nagging injury, or whatever, he's not producing. And we're thinking of giving him a market setting contract next season.

D.K. was drafted to be a deep threat. He's built to run fast, deep, and catch. We're trying to use him with Geno dink and dunk ball, which is not what he's best at at. That's why his best seasons were with Russ. His TDs have dropped off substantially since we went to Geno dink and dunk ball.

Whole idea behind DK was a big, fast receiver to stretch the field for the deep ball with a Tyler or JSN to work the under and middle.

Of course, this isn't absolute as you will mix it up as any offense does, but mostly this is what was intended. When we moved to Geno dink and dunk ball, we lost the deep threat.

Which is why I feel like D.K. is better off somewhere that can throw deep as his best WR skills are being wasted in Seattle with dink and dunk ball when he's made to be more like Randy Moss. Run deep and catch TDs using his height and size to take the ball. Those quality deep ball QBs are hard to find. I don't care how many people claim Geno is better than Russ or whatever, Russ's deep ball ability was amazing. He had a much stronger arm than Geno and was more accurate deep.

As others are starting. D.K. forces you to cover him with your best player as often as possible which is why Sauce Gardner guarded him this week.

It sure feels like a waste of talent to have D.K. playing with small ball with Geno. Geno isn't a big ball thrower. Whenever he tries to throw deep too often, he gets ints. Which is why Pete kept him in check and built the offense to be high percentage passing relying on Geno and Tyler to get YAC.

What I wouldn't give to have all the talent align. It's just irritating to finally have this great receiving corps and a QB that can't use it. When we had Russ in his prime we couldn't build a great WR corps. It's like we always have this misalignment of talent that doesn't maximize what the talent can do.

[Aseahawkfan]

If and when the time comes to extend DK to a bigger contract, I am all for letting him test FA and walk. However, for now I say use him anyway we can because he is helping this offense even if he is an expensive decoy. I don't disagree our offense has taken a step back, but then again it appears to me we are trying to run more on 1st downs, and I see a little less of this hurry up offense we saw so earlier in the season. Albeit, our run game is still pretty poor they are still trying to go to it more. But HEY Geno didn't throw an INT, so that's something to celebrate.

That would utterly ridiculous to let DK walk. You sign and trade if you don't want to keep him.

If handful of Seattle fans can't see Geno Smith is holding back this offense and not D.K. Metcalf, then oh well. GM should clearly see D.K. and JSN are stud receivers and would be much higher performers with a better QB regardless of what some web site says.

Just like when Golden Tate played with Matthew Stafford, he's suddenly a 1000 yard receiver in Detroit's high volume passing attack. You put D.K. with a great QB who can take advantage of his size and speed downfield and he'll be putting up 1200 plus yard season with 10 to 15 TDs a year. But he's gotta play with Geno, the bridge QB who everyone loves because they start looking at crap like completion percentage or TD-int ratio rather than how many TDs he gets, big splash plays, and knowing from the eye test he isn't in in the same league as the big baller QBs in the NFL.

If D.K. wants money, sign and trade. You don't let a talent like D.K. walk away for nothing. You know someone else will take him as they can see his talent versus how well he works with a dink and dunk QB like Geno and fans pretending this guy isn't a stud WR with freakish athletic ability having his talent wasted on a Seattle team that couldn't find a new starting QB in the draft so elevated a backup and tried to sell him as some contender.

[River Dog]

D.K. was drafted to be a deep threat. He's built to run fast, deep, and catch. We're trying to use him with Geno dink and dunk ball, which is not what he's best at at. That's why his best seasons were with Russ. His TDs have dropped off substantially since we went to Geno dink and dunk ball.

Whole idea behind DK was a big, fast receiver to stretch the field for the deep ball with a Tyler or JSN to work the under and middle.

Of course, this isn't absolute as you will mix it up as any offense does, but mostly this is what was intended. When we moved to Geno dink and dunk ball, we lost the deep threat.

Which is why I feel like D.K. is better off somewhere that can throw deep as his best WR skills are being wasted in Seattle with dink and dunk ball when he's made to be more like Randy Moss. Run deep and catch TDs using his height and size to take the ball. Those quality deep ball QBs are hard to find. I don't care how many people claim Geno is better than Russ or whatever, Russ's deep ball ability was amazing. He had a much stronger arm than Geno and was more accurate deep.

As others are starting. D.K. forces you to cover him with your best player as often as possible which is why Sauce Gardner guarded him this week.

It sure feels like a waste of talent to have D.K. playing with small ball with Geno. Geno isn't a big ball thrower. Whenever he tries to throw deep too often, he gets ints. Which is why Pete kept him in check and built the offense to be high percentage passing relying on Geno and Tyler to get YAC.

What I wouldn't give to have all the talent align. It's just irritating to finally have this great receiving corps and a QB that can't use it. When we had Russ in his prime we couldn't build a great WR corps. It's like we always have this misalignment of talent that doesn't maximize what the talent can do.

I pretty much agree. Metcalf is a huge deep threat, a true #1 receiver who is going to draw the biggest, best cover corners. His size alone creates mismatches at other positions. But on the other hand, he is a sloppy route runner, frequently loses track of the game situation, has questionable hands and although he's been pretty clean lately, he draws a lot of penalties, a player that refs have been conditioned to watch. He's not versatile, never used on jet sweeps, bubble screens, special teams, or a jack of all trades like Debo. He's not a top 10 receiver, not worth what it would take to re-sign him.

As far as what the future holds, I don't want to let him walk, either. If we were going to trade him, the ideal time would have been before the trading deadline this season. His market value isn't getting any higher, especially after his disappearing act of the past few games. But we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. What needs to happen now is that we figure out a way to get him more involved in our offense. If he's so damn valuable at being a decoy or creating mismatches, it obviously isn't working because our offense stinks.

[c_hawkbob]

Y'all act like DK ain't the best receiver (to this point in his career) we've ever had. Just for fun I looked up his stats vs the next 5 on the greatest Seahawks receiver list over the first 5 years of their careers:

player receptions/yards/tds

DK Metcalf ----------- 372 / 5332 / 43
Steve Largent ------- 290 / 4817 / 37
Tyler Locket --------- 276 / 3838 / 27
Brian Blades --------- 246 / 3146 / 12
Doug Baldwin -------- 363 / 4631 / 37
Darrell Jackson ------ 340 / 5007 / 34

[Spohawk5092]

I'd like to think we will be working on special teams a bit before the Cardinals.

[River Dog]

Y'all act like DK ain't the best receiver (to this point in his career) we've ever had. Just for fun I looked up his stats vs the next 5 on the greatest Seahawks receiver list over the first 5 years of their careers:

player receptions/yards/tds

DK Metcalf ----------- 372 5332 43
Steve Largent ------- 290 4817 37
Tyler Locket --------- 276 3838 27
Brian Blades --------- 246 3146 12
Doug Baldwin -------- 363 4631 37
Darrell Jackson ------ 340 5007 34

What do you mean "acting" like Metcalf isn't the best receiver we've ever had? He isn't. He couldn't hold Steve Largent's jock strap.

I shouldn't have to tell a football savvy guy like yourself how much the game has changed since the days of Largent and Blades and that statistical comparisons are irrelevant, apples and oranges. Try comparing Metcalf with his peers, like Justin Jefferson, JaMar Chase, and AJ Brown. Those are the top receivers in the game, and Metcalf isn't on that level. He's not worth a market setting contract.

No one is saying that Metcalf isn't our #1 receiver. Speaking for the others, what we're saying is that for one reason or another, he hasn't been producing, which is an undeniable fact. Our top producing receiver is currently JSN. He has more receptions, 70 vs. 50, more yards, 829 vs 763, and more TD's, 4 vs 3. Metcalf has missed two games, so his per game average makes the difference a bit less striking. But Metcalf has lost two fumbles and draws more penalties. All of that stuff has to be factored in. And that's before we get to the subjective stuff, like hands and headiness.

The point is that we need to figure out how to get Metcalf more involved in our offense. Whether the problem rests with Grubbs, Geno, Metcalf, or all of the above, he's one of the best if not the best player on our offense, he's not being utilized, and our offense in general is struggling because of it.

[NorthHawk]

Some team or maybe multiple teams will pay DK the market rate.
Maybe we've seen the top of the WR market and now things will slide a little but it remains to be seen in the off season how the contracts go. I would think with Barkley and Henry being such important pieces of their teams and more teams with an emphasis on the run game, the WR wage scale might slip a little and the RB scale improve for the better RBs. At this point it seems to me the WR market got ahead of itself these last couple of years.

[NorthHawk]

There is a positive in this game, and it's the defense. The defense won this game. Yes in the first quarter they did give up a 80 yard TD drive. On the ensuing KO we fumbled the return and put the Jets at the 27, and yes the defense gave up another TD on a short field, but after that drive, they clamped the Jets down.

They held the offense to 2 TDS

Held the Jets Passing to 185 yards
Held the Jets Rushing to 89 yards

Had the big Pick 6, and blanked them the entire 2nd half. I think it's clear our defense is our biggest strength and gives me hope we clinch this division. It still wont be easy, and our offense didn't play great, but they didn't play bad. The special teams was the massive failure in this game.

I found it interesting that the two teams statistics looked almost identical with the only differences being turnovers and penalties.
Maybe we aren't much better than the Jets after all.

[River Dog]

There is a positive in this game, and it's the defense. The defense won this game. Yes in the first quarter they did give up a 80 yard TD drive. On the ensuing KO we fumbled the return and put the Jets at the 27, and yes the defense gave up another TD on a short field, but after that drive, they clamped the Jets down.

They held the offense to 2 TDS

Held the Jets Passing to 185 yards
Held the Jets Rushing to 89 yards

Had the big Pick 6, and blanked them the entire 2nd half. I think it's clear our defense is our biggest strength and gives me hope we clinch this division. It still wont be easy, and our offense didn't play great, but they didn't play bad. The special teams was the massive failure in this game.

I found it interesting that the two teams statistics looked almost identical with the only differences being turnovers and penalties.
Maybe we aren't much better than the Jets after all.

There are liars, damn liars, and then there are statisticians.

Had it not been for one huge anomaly in the form of the worst special teams performance in franchise history, I think we win this game going away. If we were to play the Jets 10 times, we win 8 of those games. IMO I think there's a big difference talent wise. I'll take Geno over Rodgers, Walker over Hall, our Williams over their Williams.

[Oly]

To be fair to DK, he is also elite at drawing DPI flags. He's behind only Jefferson this year and was #4 in the league last year. He was in good position to get a critical 1st down yesterday if not for the DPI, which moved the chains all the same. DK has some big problems, and he's definitely the most boom-or-bust WR on a week-to-week basis in the league, but the things he does well are unique. He's even seemed much more calm most of this season, so perhaps he's starting to outgrow his penchant for personal fouls. And if he can clean up the fouls and fumbling, then he's a clear #1 for nearly every team in the league. For Pete, who was often willing to trade sloppy play for the occasional big play, DK would have been perhaps the ideal #1.

But Macdonald isn't Pete. While DK would thrive in a big play offense, he's wasted in a ball control offense, which is what I think Macdonald wants. If DK is going to get a record contract, which I think he'll get, then I don't want the Hawks to be in that bidding war. Collect the comp pick and use the cap space to finally fix the OL. It makes me sad, because DK adds to the entertainment value of the Hawks, and entertainment is the name of the game.

[River Dog]

To be fair to DK, he is also elite at drawing DPI flags. He's behind only Jefferson this year and was #4 in the league last year. He was in good position to get a critical 1st down yesterday if not for the DPI, which moved the chains all the same. DK has some big problems, and he's definitely the most boom-or-bust WR on a week-to-week basis in the league, but the things he does well are unique. He's even seemed much more calm most of this season, so perhaps he's starting to outgrow his penchant for personal fouls. And if he can clean up the fouls and fumbling, then he's a clear #1 for nearly every team in the league. For Pete, who was often willing to trade sloppy play for the occasional big play, DK would have been perhaps the ideal #1.

But Macdonald isn't Pete. While DK would thrive in a big play offense, he's wasted in a ball control offense, which is what I think Macdonald wants. If DK is going to get a record contract, which I think he'll get, then I don't want the Hawks to be in that bidding war. Collect the comp pick and use the cap space to finally fix the OL. It makes me sad, because DK adds to the entertainment value of the Hawks, and entertainment is the name of the game.

Excellent point about DK drawing DPI penalties, and it makes sense as Metcalf is a big, strong, fast receiver, and a good tactic, perhaps the only tactic, against a receiver like him is to get up into his face and be physical with him, keep him from getting separation. But it's that style of play that has caused Metcalf to respond in kind, sometimes drawing a penalty of his own. To his credit, Metcalf has seemed to have cleaned up his act, having not drawn a penalty since Week 4 vs. the Lions. He had one in each of our first 4 games. But then again, he's been almost nonexistent in the past few games, so maybe the fewer penalties are a symptom of another problem.

I'm also in agreement with your argument about Pete's offense vs. the one Macdonald seems to favor. We don't seem to be able to take advantage of Metcalf's size and strength in the red zone, an area where you'd think he'd be dominant.

[Aseahawkfan]

Excellent point about DK drawing DPI penalties, and it makes sense as Metcalf is a big, strong, fast receiver, and a good tactic, perhaps the only tactic, against a receiver like him is to get up into his face and be physical with him, keep him from getting separation. But it's that style of play that has caused Metcalf to respond in kind, sometimes drawing a penalty of his own. To his credit, Metcalf has seemed to have cleaned up his act, having not drawn a penalty since Week 4 vs. the Lions. He had one in each of our first 4 games. But then again, he's been almost nonexistent in the past few games, so maybe the fewer penalties are a symptom of another problem.

I'm also in agreement with your argument about Pete's offense vs. the one Macdonald seems to favor. We don't seem to be able to take advantage of Metcalf's size and strength in the red zone, an area where you'd think he'd be dominant.

We don't have a QB to take advantage of D.K.'s talents any longer. Russ was money in the red zone, Geno is not. When Russ was in his prime, D.K. was on his way to 1200 plus yard seasons with 10 to 15 TDs a year. Then Russ fell off and Pete tamped down the offense.

Now D.K. got Geno. Mr. Dink and Dunk.

I'm glad Geno is providing above average QBing for a bridge QB. It sucks to see talent like D.K. wasted because we can't get a big arm, accurate QB while he's healthy. Can you imagine a prime Russ with JSN and DK? Would have been amazing. We need a young QB in their prime with a big, accurate arm who can use DK and JSN to carve defenses up.

[River Dog]

Excellent point about DK drawing DPI penalties, and it makes sense as Metcalf is a big, strong, fast receiver, and a good tactic, perhaps the only tactic, against a receiver like him is to get up into his face and be physical with him, keep him from getting separation. But it's that style of play that has caused Metcalf to respond in kind, sometimes drawing a penalty of his own. To his credit, Metcalf has seemed to have cleaned up his act, having not drawn a penalty since Week 4 vs. the Lions. He had one in each of our first 4 games. But then again, he's been almost nonexistent in the past few games, so maybe the fewer penalties are a symptom of another problem.

I'm also in agreement with your argument about Pete's offense vs. the one Macdonald seems to favor. We don't seem to be able to take advantage of Metcalf's size and strength in the red zone, an area where you'd think he'd be dominant.

We don't have a QB to take advantage of D.K.'s talents any longer. Russ was money in the red zone, Geno is not. When Russ was in his prime, D.K. was on his way to 1200 plus yard seasons with 10 to 15 TDs a year. Then Russ fell off and Pete tamped down the offense.

Now D.K. got Geno. Mr. Dink and Dunk.

I'm glad Geno is providing above average QBing for a bridge QB. It sucks to see talent like D.K. wasted because we can't get a big arm, accurate QB while he's healthy. Can you imagine a prime Russ with JSN and DK? Would have been amazing. We need a young QB in their prime with a big, accurate arm who can use DK and JSN to carve defenses up.

Agreed. But I do want to add that I don't think it wise for us to build our team around a wide receiver, that the position is overrated, that there's a lot of really good WR's out there that you don't have to pay a king's ransom for. We'd be better off investing in defense and the offensive line.

[Stream Hawk]

Well, I don’t necessarily know ball as much as some of you, Geno is not our biggest issue on offense. The OL is garbage. It’s an endemic that Schneider has yet to resolve since assuming GM duties in 2010. If Geno has time, he slays. He’s second in the league in passing yards(or close to it) so not exactly dink and dunk.

[trents]

Well, I don’t necessarily know ball as much as some of you, Geno is not our biggest issue on offense. The OL is garbage. It’s an endemic that Schneider has yet to resolve since assuming GM duties in 2010. If Geno has time, he slays. He’s second in the league in passing yards(or close to it) so not exactly dink and dunk.

Agreed. Geno's Dink n' Dunk game is likely a product of a leaky O line and having no time to drop back and wait for the long routes to develop as it is anything else, plus no running game to give defenses something else besides the pass to defend against.

[Aseahawkfan]

Agreed. Geno's Dink n' Dunk game is likely a product of a leaky O line and having no time to drop back and wait for the long routes to develop as it is anything else, plus no running game to give defenses something else besides the pass to defend against.

Yeah. O-line is a problem Russ's legs made up for in his prime. Geno don't have Russ's mobility or arm strength to be a mobile passing unit. I don't think Geno would ever be the guy. He's not the biggest problem, but he's not ideal either.

The reason this is frustrating is because you want the stud QB cheap when your WRs are expensive, but we can't seem to line that up right. When Russ was in prime form, we would never draft a DK. Then when DK was in prime form, our QB fell off. It's hard to get those pieces to align at the right time and cost.

It's always good to have one great WR. If we can snag a QB, then pay DK while JSN is cheap and unfortunately let Tyler walk.

I guess we'll see how John does it next year. JSN is obviously ready to take Tyler's spot, so Tyler may be on his last year here. Next year we gotta get the LB and guard spot solid. We can't keep this up with the interior O-line.

[River Dog]

Well, I don’t necessarily know ball as much as some of you, Geno is not our biggest issue on offense. The OL is garbage. It’s an endemic that Schneider has yet to resolve since assuming GM duties in 2010. If Geno has time, he slays. He’s second in the league in passing yards(or close to it) so not exactly dink and dunk.

Agreed. Geno's Dink n' Dunk game is likely a product of a leaky O line and having no time to drop back and wait for the long routes to develop as it is anything else, plus no running game to give defenses something else besides the pass to defend against.

It's also a product of a really bad running attack.

Geno's total yardage numbers are a bit inflated, deceiving. I'd rather see a few less total yards and a little better 3rd down/red zone performance.

[NorthHawk]

It all goes back to OL struggles and we've been dealing with it ever since Marshawn retired and the OL was exposed.
Geno can make some all world plays but then follow it up with one of the most boneheaded play you can imagine. But that's just who he is and he seems to have trouble with making a good decision under pressure.
Getting a push from the OL in the Red Zone is absolutely to be a consistent threat. As we can't run the ball on a regular basis, teams key on the pass. Occasionally we can gut a team up the middle, but that's not
something to rely on. Short yardage - 3rd or 4th down anywhere on the field is a big gamble without being able to trust a short yardage run game.
All these problems stem from an inadequate OL run game and it seems we are wasting the talents of Ken Walker who could be a difference maker if given an adequate OL in front of him.

[4XPIPS]

Such an iconic voice, but I don’t think I have ever heard Steve’s voice crack before
https://www.instagram.com/p/DDF5iknzR3R ... d0OHUwcQ==

[River Dog]

It all goes back to OL struggles and we've been dealing with it ever since Marshawn retired and the OL was exposed.
Geno can make some all world plays but then follow it up with one of the most boneheaded play you can imagine. But that's just who he is and he seems to have trouble with making a good decision under pressure.
Getting a push from the OL in the Red Zone is absolutely to be a consistent threat. As we can't run the ball on a regular basis, teams key on the pass. Occasionally we can gut a team up the middle, but that's not
something to rely on. Short yardage - 3rd or 4th down anywhere on the field is a big gamble without being able to trust a short yardage run game.
All these problems stem from an inadequate OL run game and it seems we are wasting the talents of Ken Walker who could be a difference maker if given an adequate OL in front of him.

I mostly agree. As good as this defense is turning out to be and as effective as our passing game has been, we need at least an average effort/performance in short yardage running situations, especially nowadays when there is so much more reliance on analytics in decision making, i.e. going for it on 4th down. How many shots at the end zone did we get from inside the 5 and still couldn't punch it in? It was embarrassing.