Patrick Peterson: "Sherman isn't a shutdown corner"

[burrrton]

I have a really hard time believing your D folded

Wise, but how did you get from "So-and-so was open" to "Seattle's defense folded"??

[NorthHawk]

Maybe he's coming around to your side of the discussion.

[kalibane]

A play doesn't get any more black and white than that. Go watch the replay again and then tell me at which point in the pattern was Crabtree open? It wasn't like Sherman got beat off the line and then made a spectacular play to recover. There was ZERO seperation. Sherman had textbook position making the back shoulder throw out of the question and has a height, reach and vertical leap advantage over Crabtree. There was not a single place you could put that ball at any trajectory where Sherman didn't have an advantage in getting to the ball. And the only reason that Sherman had to make an acrobatic play was because Crabtree turned Sherman with a push off on his inside shoulder. In fact Kaepernick tried that same kind of pass to Vernon Davis in week 2, the ball came in at a higher trajectory and Sherman picked it. That's part of why this was such a bad decision. Kaep didn't learn from his own mistakes. Davis is a better receiver than Crabtree, and unlike Crabtree has an actual physical advantage over Sherman but Kaep still couldn't get the throw there.

Kaepernick could try to make that throw a 100 times and the only way he actually completes it is if Sherman falls down. You keep talking about the trajectory, the trajectory... but you keep forgetting that in order for the ball to come in higher, Kaep has to put more air under the ball which just gives more time for Sherman to get in position in a spot on the field where Crabtree is about to be out of Real Estate.

There was no upside to throwing that pass. You're betting on a fluke occurance. As Peterson said... Film don't lie. Crabtree was completely blanketed.

Yes Seattle has a great redzone defense. But four tries from inside the 10 has exponentially higher odds of success than making that throw. Patton was the correct read.

Your whole argument has been that teams should have confidence in making plays no matter how great the opposition is. But then you turn around and say that you would rather have that throw than 4 tries from inside the 10 because Seattle's red zone defense is good. What happened to that confidence? All your stuff circles back on itself.

[HumanCockroach]

Sorry Future, but if you saw something other than blanket coverage, you're blind. That said, Kap didn't have time for a second or third read, it was either going to end the way it did, or in a sack.

[Futureite]

A play doesn't get any more black and white than that. Go watch the replay again and then tell me at which point in the pattern was Crabtree open? It wasn't like Sherman got beat off the line and then made a spectacular play to recover. There was ZERO seperation. Sherman had textbook position making the back shoulder throw out of the question and has a height, reach and vertical leap advantage over Crabtree. There was not a single place you could put that ball at any trajectory where Sherman didn't have an advantage in getting to the ball. And the only reason that Sherman had to make an acrobatic play was because Crabtree turned Sherman with a push off on his inside shoulder. In fact Kaepernick tried that same kind of pass to Vernon Davis in week 2, the ball came in at a higher trajectory and Sherman picked it. That's part of why this was such a bad decision. Kaep didn't learn from his own mistakes. Davis is a better receiver than Crabtree, and unlike Crabtree has an actual physical advantage over Sherman but Kaep still couldn't get the throw there.

Kaepernick could try to make that throw a 100 times and the only way he actually completes it is if Sherman falls down. You keep talking about the trajectory, the trajectory... but you keep forgetting that in order for the ball to come in higher, Kaep has to put more air under the ball which just gives more time for Sherman to get in position in a spot on the field where Crabtree is about to be out of Real Estate.

There was no upside to throwing that pass. You're betting on a fluke occurance. As Peterson said... Film don't lie. Crabtree was completely blanketed.

Yes Seattle has a great redzone defense. But four tries from inside the 10 has exponentially higher odds of success than making that throw. Patton was the correct read.

Your whole argument has been that teams should have confidence in making plays no matter how great the opposition is. But then you turn around and say that you would rather have that throw than 4 tries from inside the 10 because Seattle's red zone defense is good. What happened to that confidence? All your stuff circles back on itself.

I guess you are referring to the ball Sherman picked down the sideline to Davis earlier in the yr? Davis made no play on thst ball whatsoever and instead waited for it to fall out of the sky over Sherman. In fact, I made that exact statement to my father at the time it happened. Davis is nowhere in the same league as Crab as a receiver. In fact, he has had to work ridiculously hard to develop average hands. He is physical, big and fast - and those are the reasons that he is good.

If and when we meet I am going to bring a football and literally throw that route lol. If you wait for a wr to break "open", you're never going to throw that ball. It makes no FN difference where the DB is. You are throwing to a "spot" where you anticipate the wr will be. You are anticipating that he WILL get separation while the ball is in the air by acceleration, using his body/contact or vertical leap. It's been that way since the beginning of time and your characterization of a "dumb" throw or "no way to complete it" will never change that fact.

Ever heard the term "throwing a receiver open"? Throwing to a spot which you and your guy both have practiced. I get that you don't believe Kap/Crab can do that. That Kap and Crab are not Rodgers and Jennings, or Manning and Harrison or (insert combo). You've made the point already. It's been noted.

I told you what I would have done. Doesn't mean the alternative choice was wrong. It has to do with your DNA. Just like your gambling coach went for it on 4th and 1 V Texas and lost the National Championchip and called a tuneout to ice Matt Bryant and cost you an NFC Title game. Guess what? He went for it again on 4th down this yr and it WORKED. That's his DNA. So in the same vein, our QB gambled just like your coach did and it did not work THIS time. Doesn't mean it will not the next.

But go ahead and talk all the junk you want about how superior your guy is to ours, how bad our QB's judgment is, how no one (or at least, Crab) will ever beat him on that route. If you want the bragging rights when it works, go ahead and have them.

[kalibane]

It's not about talking junk about how much better our guy is to yours (although our guy is better than yours in this case). It's about the fact that there was no place to put the ball.

You want to know the biggest difference between Aaron Rodgers and Kaep in that play? Aaron Rodgers never throws that ball. 1. There was no place to throw him open. Sherman had perfect position, that's a play people will show kids to coach them how to play Corner. Sherman is also taller, longer, more athletic and faster than Crabtree. If he thinks that Crabtree is going to accelerate and create seperation by the time the ball arrives. He doesn't know his own player. This is a 20 yard pass, not a 60 yard bomb there is no room to create seperation well aside from the push off (not that it would have mattered). 2. One of the biggest knocks on Kaepernick is he lacks anticipation on his throws. He needs to see where is receiver is to throw it to him. Now you want me to believe he's throwing guys open all of a sudden?

Davis also is a superior receiver to Crabtree. Crabtree just has superior hands. Davis is a better jump ball guy though, better at creating separation and a better big play threat. And that INT was not Davis fault. He is running his route... his momentum is taking him away from the ball... it's not underthrown... the ball is supposed to come over the top and if Sherman wasn't there it would have dropped right in his hands in stride. The problem is Sherman was there. The repeated problem that you fail to see is Kaepernick thinks his arm is so good he can force balls into coverage. Sometimes it works out like the TD to Boldin but it also ends in disaster. And that pass to Boldin was amazing but if you think it was a smart decision to leave your feet to rifle that ball you're wrong. Luckily Earl Thomas is 5'10 and not 6'0" or taller or that would have been an incompletion or a pick too.

[Futureite]

It's not about talking junk about how much better our guy is to yours (although our guy is better than yours in this case). It's about the fact that there was no place to put the ball.

You want to know the biggest difference between Aaron Rodgers and Kaep in that play? Aaron Rodgers never throws that ball. 1. There was no place to throw him open. Sherman had perfect position, that's a play people will show kids to coach them how to play Corner. Sherman is also taller, longer, more athletic and faster than Crabtree. If he thinks that Crabtree is going to accelerate and create seperation by the time the ball arrives. He doesn't know his own player. This is a 20 yard pass, not a 60 yard bomb there is no room to create seperation well aside from the push off (not that it would have mattered). 2. One of the biggest knocks on Kaepernick is he lacks anticipation on his throws. He needs to see where is receiver is to throw it to him. Now you want me to believe he's throwing guys open all of a sudden?

Davis also is a superior receiver to Crabtree. Crabtree just has superior hands. Davis is a better jump ball guy though, better at creating separation and a better big play threat. And that INT was not Davis fault. He is running his route... his momentum is taking him away from the ball... it's not underthrown... the ball is supposed to come over the top and if Sherman wasn't there it would have dropped right in his hands in stride. The problem is Sherman was there. The repeated problem that you fail to see is Kaepernick thinks his arm is so good he can force balls into coverage. Sometimes it works out like the TD to Boldin but it also ends in disaster. And that pass to Boldin was amazing but if you think it was a smart decision to leave your feet to rifle that ball you're wrong. Luckily Earl Thomas is 5'10 and not 6'0" or taller or that would have been an incompletion or a pick too.

What?!? I literally just said that out loud. Rodgers never throws a ball like that? He CONSTANTLY throws into coverage. The guy has mastered throwing receivers open, hitting alnost nonexistent windows and throwing back shoulder fades. That is one of the biggest reasins that he is an MVP QB.

I have watched every game that Vernon Davis has played in the NFL and he is not a natural receiver. He received criticism here for yrs for his stone hands and bad route running. Crab's hands, body control and natural pass catching ability are night and day better than Vernon's. This is the reason Crab being a mediicore athlete put up 1,100+ yds and 9 TDs in his first yr without Alex.

You can create separation on that route plenty of ways. If you are runnung stride for stride with me - completely even - and I have the sideline, I can keep you at bay with my hip or even lean in + slow down, then accelerate. Nuances like this were mastered and used by plenty of receivers, and that's just one way to do it. In fact, at age 38 I can STILL cross over guys half my age by getting them to lean off balance and then using the opposite shoulder to shield them as I pivot and drive in the oppisite direction. And ya, I'll bring a basketball to prove that too lol.

It's all debateable Kalibane. That's my only point. I know people love labels in sports and definitions of who a player "is" nowadays, but one play doesn't define that. Hat's off to Sherman for getting it done in 2013. 2014 is a different yr.

[HumanCockroach]

I think you simply refuse to admit that throwing at a guy that continues to prove that route isn't going to work ( did you see ANY one last year beat Sherman on that route? Nope, at least not in 2013, and there were a HELL of a lot better receivers, and QB's trying unsuccessfully to do it). You talk about how you can "admit you're wrong " Future, and yet when it is staring you in the face, you go with the "it's all subjective" or it's a matter of perspective, or some other squirm out response. Thing is, you seldom if EVER ( I certainly don't remember it) just come out and say "I'm wrong" or even just agree with something simple ( like Kap shouldn't have been trying that route, whether that's on Kap or the OC is certainly debatable not the coverage or the leagues success against Sherman with those routes).

[kalibane]

I repeat my words. Aaron Rodgers never makes that throw. It was perfect coverage. Now Brett Favre? He tries to make that throw. The fact that you're resorting to comparing him to Aaron Rodgers is ridiculous. Kaep doesn't have the touch that Russell Wilson has, let alone Aaron Rodgers. Kaep is right around the level of Cam Newton in terms of touch and anticipation.

When Aaron Rodgers throws his receivers open he puts it in a place only his guy can get it. There was no place to put that ball where only his guy can get it. And again Kaep ain't Aaron Rodgers, his biggest knock is he has to see it before he throws it there. Aaron Rodgers either throws that ball out of the back of the endzone or holds it longer trying to find another target. He doesn't force a lot of balls. If there was a way to create separation on that play then why didn't Crabtree do it? You are posting like the side line is an ally for the receiver. It's not. That's Sherman's best friend. Sherman is in trail position playing the ball with Crabtree on his hip. Any ball thrown behind Sherman has a better shot at it. Crabtree was running full speed so he's not going not going to create space behind him. The only ball Sherman doesn't have a better chance at is a ball neither of them have a chance at because it's uncatcahable.

Everything is technically debateable but your case that Kaep's decision to throw that ball being a reasonble one is paper thin. This isn't a basketball defender facing up trying to predict which way you're going. This is a football player where the defender is in perfect position and the receiver's momentum is taking him away from the WR and Sherman knows exactly where he's going because I'm sure as "Basketball" player once you have someone on your hip in the post they are at your mercy. Crab's only way to create separation is to push off which is what he tried to do. His best chance probably would have been to stop and try to pick up a cheap PI penalty, but I doubt that works since it's at the end of a game in Seattle and Sherman was playing the ball which isn't supposed to be a penalty.

[Futureite]

I think you simply refuse to admit that throwing at a guy that continues to prove that route isn't going to work ( did you see ANY one last year beat Sherman on that route? Nope, at least not in 2013, and there were a HELL of a lot better receivers, and QB's trying unsuccessfully to do it). You talk about how you can "admit you're wrong " Future, and yet when it is staring you in the face, you go with the "it's all subjective" or it's a matter of perspective, or some other squirm out response. Thing is, you seldom if EVER ( I certainly don't remember it) just come out and say "I'm wrong" or even just agree with something simple ( like Kap shouldn't have been trying that route, whether that's on Kap or the OC is certainly debatable not the coverage or the leagues success against Sherman with those routes).

I'll say it one more time: former professional athletes have stated it was the right read. Mark Schlereth said if it's thrown right it's a TD. So did Tim Hasselbeck. Should I just keep retyping that? Is it ever going to sink in, that otber peoole do not see the play as you do? You are talking about a completely subjective play that knowledgeable people that played the game are explaining to you. You are just seeing and hearing what you want. Don't blame that on me.

[kalibane]

As far as VD and Crabtree... let both of them hit the open market and see how much they get. From what I hear Crabtree may not even get extended. Guess the niners decided who's worth more.

[HumanCockroach]

I think you simply refuse to admit that throwing at a guy that continues to prove that route isn't going to work ( did you see ANY one last year beat Sherman on that route? Nope, at least not in 2013, and there were a HELL of a lot better receivers, and QB's trying unsuccessfully to do it). You talk about how you can "admit you're wrong " Future, and yet when it is staring you in the face, you go with the "it's all subjective" or it's a matter of perspective, or some other squirm out response. Thing is, you seldom if EVER ( I certainly don't remember it) just come out and say "I'm wrong" or even just agree with something simple ( like Kap shouldn't have been trying that route, whether that's on Kap or the OC is certainly debatable not the coverage or the leagues success against Sherman with those routes).

I'll say it one more time: former professional athletes have stated it was the right read. Mark Schlereth said if it's thrown right it's a TD. So did Tim Hasselbeck. Should I just keep retyping that? Is it ever going to sink in, that otber peoole do not see the play as you do? You are talking about a completely subjective play that knowledgeable people that played the game are explaining to you. You are just seeing and hearing what you want. Don't blame that on me.

So can I just type the names of the people that were former athletes that said it was a bad decision to make me right then? Use your vaunted "eye test". LMFAO... ( by the way there were PLENTY of people on board with the bad play, bad decision, blanket coverage angle, a HELL of a lot more than Hasselbeck a never was, and a former offensive lineman).For instance Steve Young and Kurt Warner.... I'll take the word of the HOF SB winning QB'S over those two every time...

[Seahawks4Ever]

Mark Scherith and Kurt Warner both predicted that the broncos would defeat our Seahawks in the Super Bowl and they were wrong about that too. Just because some current or former NFL player says something it doesn't mean they are right.

[burrrton]

Well, there's a difference between a prediction and hindsight analysis.

It's bizarre, though, and should be disconcerting to Future (and all Niner fans), because if that *was* the "correct read", they better throw that play in the crapper, because it was a pretty typical look, and the play didn't have a snowball's chance in h3ll of being anything but bad for SF, a wasted down *at best*.

Honestly: if you're a QB and you see man coverage from an all-pro and he COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY BLANKETS your receiver, and your "correct read" is to go that way anyway, you should punch your offensive coordinator in the mouth.

[mykc14]

Just because it might have been the correct read doesn't mean that it was the right play to make. It might have been the correct read in that it looked like Crabs basically had Sherm one on one in zero coverage but the reality is it was cover 3, which the Hawks play alot, and should have been pretty obvious to Kraep. Even if you didn't know for sure it was a cover 3 look before the snap it is clear as soon as the ball is snapped what D the Hawks are in. Sherman is responsible for the deep third on his side of the field, while Smith is in charge of the flat. Because they don't send anybody short on that side Smith keeps getting depth on his coverage, which is actually what allows him to be in the perfect spot to pick the tip off. Crab's route runs right into Sherman's zone. Sherm has no help on the outside, only help on the inside. He is playing pretty basic bump and run coverage, but all the while knowing he has help from ET on an inside route so he can aggressively cover the 'go' or 'fade' route. Sherm does this all the time, which is why he is so good. He eliminates that route in that coverage, plain and simple. So it might be a correct read if you think it is man on man coverage, but it's not. IMO, the correct read on that play is whoever goes to the flat on the other side of the field. If I remember correctly they have trips or something over there and with Maxwell having to play the deep third and the backer who covers the flat having to look at multiple receivers the guy who goes short is wide open. He wouldn't have scored but easily could have got 8-10 yards and gotten out of bounds. leaving 30+ seconds on the clock, the niners with 3 time outs, and the ball at around the 10.

[Futureite]

Well, there's a difference between a prediction and hindsight analysis.

It's bizarre, though, and should be disconcerting to Future (and all Niner fans), because if that *was* the "correct read", they better throw that play in the crapper, because it was a pretty typical look, and the play didn't have a snowball's chance in h3ll of being anything but bad for SF, a wasted down *at best*.

Honestly: if you're a QB and you see man coverage from an all-pro and he COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY BLANKETS your receiver, and your "correct read" is to go that way anyway, you should punch your offensive coordinator in the mouth.

I watched the play 10 times the other night after finding Youtube's mobile site and I think it could be a TD if thrown correctly. Sherman really contorted his body to get a hand on it. Regardless of whether that was a result of Crab pushing or not, PI was not called and Sherman was fully outstretched to get a hand on the ball. At absolute worst it's an incompletion if thrown "2 ft higher" as JH, Kap and so many analysts have stated.

I am taking nothing away from Sherman or the win. I just pointing out that there are clearly differing opinions on this from knowledgeable people. Like I said, I complained all yr long that we never took shots into the endzone from inside the 20. I said that was the reason we struggled so hard inside the 10 to score TDs. So I am not going to complain about them doing exactly what I begged for them to do all yr.

But hey, aren't I the one that is suppose to be mad about how this ended!

[burrrton]

But hey, aren't I the one that is suppose to be mad about how this ended!

Um, I suppose?

Anyway, point is if the "right read" on that play is to completely ignore how blanketed the receiver is and trust that you can put the ball into the minuscule window within which perfect coverage from an All-Pro corner doesn't matter, I'm not sure that's a play *I'd* want my team's OC keeping in there.

But hey, what do I know. Maybe that's indeed a play that renders coverage meaningless.

Don't get me wrong, though- I sure don't mind if your QB is told to ignore coverage. Seems to be working in our favor to this point.

[Futureite]

But hey, aren't I the one that is suppose to be mad about how this ended!

Um, I suppose?

Anyway, point is if the "right read" on that play is to completely ignore how blanketed the receiver is and trust that you can put the ball into the minuscule window within which perfect coverage from an All-Pro corner doesn't matter, I'm not sure that's a play *I'd* want my team's OC keeping in there.

But hey, what do I know. Maybe that's indeed a play that renders coverage meaningless.

Don't get me wrong, though- I sure don't mind if your QB is told to ignore coverage. Seems to be working in our favor to this point.

We could probably argue this endlessly. Do QBs only throw that route when their guy had a step or two? Of course not. That ball is thrown quite a bit when a guy is covered. You believe your guy will get that separation, even if by shove (like Crab did) or Michael Irvin use to in the past. The entire premise of this on the Seattle end though boils down to the assertion that it was dumb because it was Sherman, and Crab is incapable of winning that battle. I think we both know that's how you all feel, and it has almost nothing to do with the route, the call or the throw. Again, point noted. I still believe Crab can win that battlw. He just did not on that play. Some other receiver will on Sherman at some point, if not Crab. I have no problem whatsoever with your opinion on the play.

[burrrton]

Do QBs only throw that route when their guy had a step or two? Of course not.

Huh? Unless it's a Hail Mary, of course their guy either has to have a step or two, or the throw goes 'back shoulder', or there is *some* expectation that he'll win positioning for the ball in some fashion. I'm not sure what that expectation could have been there.

Or do you think that play is the NFL equivalent of Mr. Miyagi's "Crane Move", indefensible when done correctly?

The entire premise of this on the Seattle end though boils down to the assertion that it was dumb because it was Sherman, and Crab is incapable of winning that battle.

Well, not from me. *My* point is that it was completely defensed. Honestly- with no exaggeration, it couldn't have been covered any more thoroughly.

If it was 3rd-and-goal from the 1, and we stacked all 11 defenders over the center, would you still say it was the right play to try an off-guard dive anyway?

I still believe Crab can win that battlw.

So you don't believe coverage matters on Crab.

How about if he's double- or triple-teamed? Can he *still* win that battle regardless of anyone else, ala Mr. Miyagi's move?

[Futureite]

Do QBs only throw that route when their guy had a step or two? Of course not.

Huh? Unless it's a Hail Mary, of course their guy either has to have a step or two, or the throw goes 'back shoulder', or there is *some* expectation that he'll win positioning for the ball in some fashion. I'm not sure what that expectation could have been there.

Or do you think that play is the NFL equivalent of Mr. Miyagi's "Crane Move", indefensible when done correctly?

The entire premise of this on the Seattle end though boils down to the assertion that it was dumb because it was Sherman, and Crab is incapable of winning that battle.

Well, not from me. *My* point is that it was completely defensed. Honestly- with no exaggeration, it couldn't have been covered any more thoroughly.

If it was 3rd-and-goal from the 1, and we stacked all 11 defenders over the center, would you still say it was the right play to try an off-guard dive anyway?

I still believe Crab can win that battlw.

So you don't believe coverage matters on Crab.

How about if he's double- or triple-teamed? Can he *still* win that battle regardless of anyone else, ala Mr. Miyagi's move?

You just said it. "There is some expectation that he'll win the position". Seriously, cmon. I saw this too many times to count with Rice. Look at his 100th TD V the Raiders. The catch was fully contested. I saw it with Owens. You see it constantly every week when a QB throws that routes or others 'especially' in clutch situations where YES, the guy is fully covered. The QB, coach, receiver or all 3 believe the receiver can win the battle. I have zero problems with iur guys believing in Crab and do not buy into the PNW theory that we're suppose to bow down to Sherman and never test him. Ridiculous. It's not like hw picked that pass anyway. Most times the worst that's going to happen is an incompletion. He's a good player. He made a very good play and hats off to him and your team. That's about it in my view.

[burrrton]

You see it constantly every week when a QB throws that routes or others 'especially' in clutch situations where YES, the guy is fully covered.

Not that fully covered, with an average-to-good receiver, against an All-Pro corner in the best year of his career, with a compressed field.

Look, Future, I kinda sorta know what you're getting at. I just think maybe you're going a bit too easily from "I can't blame him for trying in the heat of the situation" (which I find reasonable, I guess) to "that's the play that *should* have been attempted" (which I find preposterous).

I have zero problems with iur guys believing in Crab and do not buy into the PNW theory that we're suppose to bow down to Sherman and never test him.

First, I have no problem with you guys trying that play every down of every game. Again, I think it works distinctly in our favor if Kaep seeing your receiver completely covered is the trigger for him to go that way.

Second, I'm not one of the guys saying you should "bow down" to Sherm. I, like you, have watched this game long enough to know the fleeting nature of success.

I just think it's pretty tough to say that throw into that coverage in that situation is the play that *should* have taken place.

[kalibane]

For Christ Sake Future just stop. 1. Try to know your own team's history. The TD he caught against the Raiders wasn't his 100th TD. It was his NFL record breaking TD. I remember this distinctly because my friends who were Oakland Raider fans were bragging before the game that the Raiders were the only team that Rice had never caught a TD against and then he went out and caught three in that game. Rice caught his 100th TD at the very least 2 seasons earlier. 2. You're comparing trusting Michael Crabtree in coverage vs. the G.O.A.T. 3. Rice beat his man. There was safety help over the top but when Young released the ball Rice was open. Sherman had Crabtree blanketed. 4. The 49ers were gunning for the record in garbage time of a game they were absolutely blowing out the Raiders and a turnover didn't matter. (they won 44-10). 5. In "The Catch 2" with TO, TO also clearly beat his man. There was a more than a window to put that ball. He was going to have to take a hit (which he did) but no Packer defender had a play on the ball in the air. Furthermore there was only 8 seconds left in the game with no timeouts so the 9ers HAD to put the ball in the endzone because a checkdown would have ended the game.

You keep trying to carve out some ground for your argument to stand but none of it stands to reason. It's not an "if" Crabtree pushed off. He absolutely pushed off and it's the only reason Sherman didn't intercept the ball himself. Two feet higher and the ball is uncatchable. There is no place Kaep can put it where Crabtree has a better opportunity than Sherman.

Look I hope your coaches think like you think. Keep throwing at Sherman on Sideline routes even though as I said before I had the stats, he just doesn't give that route up... and the stats bear that out at a 97% clip. Keep looking at absolute textbook perfect coverage and thinking somehow you WR is going to pull a miracle catch out of his ass. Keep trying to get Crabtree matched up on Sherman even though in 3 years he's only managed to catch 4 passes against Sherman all of which were on underneath routes. Nothing about that matchup or that route or that situation make any sense if your a 49er fan.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[HumanCockroach]

Well, there's a difference between a prediction and hindsight analysis.

It's bizarre, though, and should be disconcerting to Future (and all Niner fans), because if that *was* the "correct read", they better throw that play in the crapper, because it was a pretty typical look, and the play didn't have a snowball's chance in h3ll of being anything but bad for SF, a wasted down *at best*.

Honestly: if you're a QB and you see man coverage from an all-pro and he COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY BLANKETS your receiver, and your "correct read" is to go that way anyway, you should punch your offensive coordinator in the mouth.

I watched the play 10 times the other night after finding Youtube's mobile site and I think it could be a TD if thrown correctly. Sherman really contorted his body to get a hand on it. Regardless of whether that was a result of Crab pushing or not, PI was not called and Sherman was fully outstretched to get a hand on the ball. At absolute worst it's an incompletion if thrown "2 ft higher" as JH, Kap and so many analysts have stated.

I am taking nothing away from Sherman or the win. I just pointing out that there are clearly differing opinions on this from knowledgeable people. Like I said, I complained all yr long that we never took shots into the endzone from inside the 20. I said that was the reason we struggled so hard inside the 10 to score TDs. So I am not going to complain about them doing exactly what I begged for them to do all yr.

But hey, aren't I the one that is suppose to be mad about how this ended!

How exactly did you come to that conclusion? If the ball is two feet higher, Sherman takes another step before his leap, which in all likely hood, results in the same or similar result. The idea that Sherman jumps when he did, is silly. DB's time jumps just like receivers, and it doesn't change where Sherman is in relation to Crabs or the ball. You're really stretching here, Future.

I've seen Sherman beat, but to the best of my recollection, I have YET to see him mistime a play on a football in the air.You continue to assume, that you know what happens with a differing throw, but realistically, with people that have played or coached the position, the result of that throw at BEST is an incompletion, at worst, it is exactly what occurred, which is a turnover. You can continue to IMAGINE a different result, but the truth is, that is imagination, not reality.

[RiverDog]

Well, there's a difference between a prediction and hindsight analysis.

It's bizarre, though, and should be disconcerting to Future (and all Niner fans), because if that *was* the "correct read", they better throw that play in the crapper, because it was a pretty typical look, and the play didn't have a snowball's chance in h3ll of being anything but bad for SF, a wasted down *at best*.

Honestly: if you're a QB and you see man coverage from an all-pro and he COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY BLANKETS your receiver, and your "correct read" is to go that way anyway, you should punch your offensive coordinator in the mouth.

I watched the play 10 times the other night after finding Youtube's mobile site and I think it could be a TD if thrown correctly. Sherman really contorted his body to get a hand on it. Regardless of whether that was a result of Crab pushing or not, PI was not called and Sherman was fully outstretched to get a hand on the ball. At absolute worst it's an incompletion if thrown "2 ft higher" as JH, Kap and so many analysts have stated.

I am taking nothing away from Sherman or the win. I just pointing out that there are clearly differing opinions on this from knowledgeable people. Like I said, I complained all yr long that we never took shots into the endzone from inside the 20. I said that was the reason we struggled so hard inside the 10 to score TDs. So I am not going to complain about them doing exactly what I begged for them to do all yr.

But hey, aren't I the one that is suppose to be mad about how this ended!

Take a look at where Crabtree was in relation to the sideline/end line. Another few feet and he's right on the out of bounds marker. Throwing it a few feet further would have led him out of bounds. I agree that the ball was slightly under thrown as the "perfect" pass would have been to put it to where only his receiver had a chance making a play on it and more than likely an incompletion rather than an interception, especially considering the down/distance/game clock, but assuming that if he did put it out there a little further would have resulted in a TD is ludicrous.

Teams will challenge corners on that play when their receiver has a height advantage. If that would have been Dez Bryant or Calvin Johnson, I would have been more worried.

[NorthHawk]

Or a guy like Kelvin Benjamin this year.
I'm glad the 49ers didn't get him in the draft.

[Futureite]

Well, there's a difference between a prediction and hindsight analysis.

It's bizarre, though, and should be disconcerting to Future (and all Niner fans), because if that *was* the "correct read", they better throw that play in the crapper, because it was a pretty typical look, and the play didn't have a snowball's chance in h3ll of being anything but bad for SF, a wasted down *at best*.

Honestly: if you're a QB and you see man coverage from an all-pro and he COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY BLANKETS your receiver, and your "correct read" is to go that way anyway, you should punch your offensive coordinator in the mouth.

I watched the play 10 times the other night after finding Youtube's mobile site and I think it could be a TD if thrown correctly. Sherman really contorted his body to get a hand on it. Regardless of whether that was a result of Crab pushing or not, PI was not called and Sherman was fully outstretched to get a hand on the ball. At absolute worst it's an incompletion if thrown "2 ft higher" as JH, Kap and so many analysts have stated.

I am taking nothing away from Sherman or the win. I just pointing out that there are clearly differing opinions on this from knowledgeable people. Like I said, I complained all yr long that we never took shots into the endzone from inside the 20. I said that was the reason we struggled so hard inside the 10 to score TDs. So I am not going to complain about them doing exactly what I begged for them to do all yr.

But hey, aren't I the one that is suppose to be mad about how this ended!

Take a look at where Crabtree was in relation to the sideline/end line. Another few feet and he's right on the out of bounds marker. Throwing it a few feet further would have led him out of bounds. I agree that the ball was slightly under thrown as the "perfect" pass would have been to put it to where only his receiver had a chance making a play on it and more than likely an incompletion rather than an interception, especially considering the down/distance/game clock, but assuming that if he did put it out there a little further would have resulted in a TD is ludicrous.

Teams will challenge corners on that play when their receiver has a height advantage. If that would have been Dez Bryant or Calvin Johnson, I would have been more worried.

You are probably right. We will never know because the ball was picked. Lost in the discussion is the fact that Sherman himself did not pick it - he just made a very good play and tipped the ball. Considering that, it just didn't seem like the meltdown people make it to be. Lol I think I am done on this one too!

[HumanCockroach]

And I'm sure you'll think Sherman didn't know he was tipping it to his player ( which he has done on that specific route and play before). Ultimately, Sherman knew exactly what he was doing ( and actually PREDICTED that play before the start of the drive) and made the play, as he has done numerous times before.

Simply put, there was no way, that play was going to work, no matter where the ball went. It was either an incompletion, a pick to Sherman, or a tipped ball.

[RiverDog]

You are probably right. We will never know because the ball was picked. Lost in the discussion is the fact that Sherman himself did not pick it - he just made a very good play and tipped the ball. Considering that, it just didn't seem like the meltdown people make it to be. Lol I think I am done on this one too!

Meltdown? No, not on that specific play. It was one bad decision that capped a 4th quarter meltdown. That is, unless you want to argue that 3 4th quarter turnovers doesn't constitute a meltdown.

HC, I'm not prepared to conclude that Sherman intentionally directed his tip to Smith. As a defender, the odds are that one of your guys is going to be around the ball vs. an offensive receiver, so it was smart for Sherman to tip it in the air and keep it in bounds vs. knocking it down.

[kalibane]

Riv,

They practice that play. Whether he saw Smith is beside the point. He tipped the ball knowing that someone else was supposed to be chasing down the play with the intention of creating a turnover. He stated that when Crabtree pushed off and he realized he couldn't intercept it himself he tried to create an opportunity for someone else. That's all that counts in my book.

[c_hawkbob]

Of course he directed that tip, exactly as he directed the identical tip to Earl in the Giants game on essentially the same play. It what he does. What any DB that knows how to use his length to his advantage does (or any DB at all as far as that goes);

- if you can catch it you catch it for the INT

- if you can't catch it but can control it with one hand you tip it to your own player if possible (why we emphasize running to the ball on defense whether you're in the play or not) or out of bounds or to the ground if not

- or if you can't control it and can only get fingertips on it you effect the trajectory of the ball so the intended receiver can't get it (the biggest reason the "if it was thrown a foot farther" argument is such a laugher)

It's pass defense 101.

[HumanCockroach]

Your entitled to whatever conclusion you want RD. For a rebuttal read Bob's response. It really IS football 101, and we teach corners in HS to do exactly what Sherman did.

[RiverDog]

I'm not saying Sherman didn't direct the tip to Smith. It just seems to me that his concentration would almost have to have be exclusively focused on his man and timing his jump to such an extent that he would have mentally screened out everything else. I can see there being an awareness that one of his teammates was trailing the play and that it would be a heady move to slap it towards the field of play, but actually directing it to Smith?

Did Sherman ever claim he directed the tip to Smith?

[burrrton]

Did Sherman ever claim he tipped it to Smith?

Haven't they widely talked about 'tip drills' (mostly after the NYG game)?

I thought that play was something they practice regularly.

[HumanCockroach]

Yeah, Sherman discussed it. Couple different places, most notably he discussed how he and his brother discussed something he had done, his brother said it was "luck", Sherman told him he would do it again in a game, then did so two or three weeks later in the Giants game ( where if you watch the play he is actually pointing and watching the ball into Thomas' hands) and then repeated it again in the Championship game, only difference was he couldn't remain standing in this instance ( pay attention to his reaction on the ground, he knows the ball was tipped to his player, and the only delay in celebration was him waiting to make sure Smith caught the ball). I have ZERO doubt he intended to tip it to his player ( like I said we taught that in HS years ago), and Sherman's tips weren't the only time it happened this year ( I know there was also one on the sideline that a Miami player made to his team mate).

I suppose you can come to that conclusion, if you didn't know how much it is indeed practiced, I'm just explaining that it is indeed practiced, and a LOT of former defensive backs would 100% agree.

[HumanCockroach]

I'm not saying Sherman didn't direct the tip to Smith. It just seems to me that his concentration would almost have to have be exclusively focused on his man and timing his jump to such an extent that he would have mentally screened out everything else. I can see there being an awareness that one of his teammates was trailing the play and that it would be a heady move to slap it towards the field of play, but actually directing it to Smith?

Did Sherman ever claim he directed the tip to Smith?

Once the ball is in the air, your man, becomes pretty forgotten, as you are at that point playing the ball not the man. Also, on a play such as that, any DB worth his salt ( and I would say ANY DB getting to the NFL is worth his salt) KNOWS where each player is supposed to be. It really isn't as difficult as you might think. I am 100% positive Sherman knew he had a flat coverage man, moving to the ball. It's the way it is practiced, and taught.

[RiverDog]

I'm not saying Sherman didn't direct the tip to Smith. It just seems to me that his concentration would almost have to have be exclusively focused on his man and timing his jump to such an extent that he would have mentally screened out everything else. I can see there being an awareness that one of his teammates was trailing the play and that it would be a heady move to slap it towards the field of play, but actually directing it to Smith?

Did Sherman ever claim he directed the tip to Smith?

Once the ball is in the air, your man, becomes pretty forgotten, as you are at that point playing the ball not the man. Also, on a play such as that, any DB worth his salt ( and I would say ANY DB getting to the NFL is worth his salt) KNOWS where each player is supposed to be. It really isn't as difficult as you might think. I am 100% positive Sherman knew he had a flat coverage man, moving to the ball. It's the way it is practiced, and taught.

I suppose we're saying the same thing about the tipped pass. IMO Sherman didn't see Smith and decide to tip it right at him. He knew that he had a teammate trailing and that no other Niner was around, so he tips it in the air and back towards the way it came rather than swatting it down or out of bounds like one might do if it were 4th down.

No matter how we slice it, it was a great play, one that will go down in Seahawk history.

[Eaglehawk]

Yeah, certainly not tipped to Smith, though he knew the d scheme. But he knew someone would be there from our side no doubt.

Sometimes it doesn't even look like a tip. But I'll give him the tip for posterity's sake.

[RiverDog]

Yeah, certainly not tipped to Smith, though he knew the d scheme. But he knew someone would be there from our side no doubt.

Sometimes it doesn't even look like a tip. But I'll give him the tip for posterity's sake.

Who was it that called it the "Immaculate Deflection"? Someone with a sense of history.

[HumanCockroach]

I'm not saying Sherman didn't direct the tip to Smith. It just seems to me that his concentration would almost have to have be exclusively focused on his man and timing his jump to such an extent that he would have mentally screened out everything else. I can see there being an awareness that one of his teammates was trailing the play and that it would be a heady move to slap it towards the field of play, but actually directing it to Smith?

Did Sherman ever claim he directed the tip to Smith?

Once the ball is in the air, your man, becomes pretty forgotten, as you are at that point playing the ball not the man. Also, on a play such as that, any DB worth his salt ( and I would say ANY DB getting to the NFL is worth his salt) KNOWS where each player is supposed to be. It really isn't as difficult as you might think. I am 100% positive Sherman knew he had a flat coverage man, moving to the ball. It's the way it is practiced, and taught.

I suppose we're saying the same thing about the tipped pass. IMO Sherman didn't see Smith and decide to tip it right at him. He knew that he had a teammate trailing and that no other Niner was around, so he tips it in the air and back towards the way it came rather than swatting it down or out of bounds like one might do if it were 4th down.

No matter how we slice it, it was a great play, one that will go down in Seahawk history.

Yeah, I guess so. Sherman was tipping to a "spot" as opposed to a player, but that is how the game is played, QB'S throw to spots a lot too, but we don't say he "didn't see the receiver", it's all part of the package, being aware, or "football smarts" however you want to characterise it, Sherman I guess knew there was supposed to be a guy at or near this spot, and so he tipped it to that spot, no different than a QB firing the football to this spot, that a receiver is supposed to be in.

[Eaglehawk]

Yeah, certainly not tipped to Smith, though he knew the d scheme. But he knew someone would be there from our side no doubt.

Sometimes it doesn't even look like a tip. But I'll give him the tip for posterity's sake.

Who was it that called it the "Immaculate Deflection"? Someone with a sense of history.

Sounds good to me!