Kubiac as the OC

[Stream Hawk]

Per Rapoport. I’m totally fine with this one!
https://www.nfl.com/news/seahawks-hire- ... oordinator

[Stream Hawk]

“Kubiak”. No edit option on the thread title.

[Aseahawkfan]

Cool. Hopefully we get some articles about how he operates soon enough.

[River Dog]

If he was Macdonald's #1 choice, then I'm good with it. At 37, he's the same age as his boss.

[NorthHawk]

We want our offense to be a physical unit and dictate terms to the defense, and play complementary football, and get the ball to our playmakers frequently in space, and let our quarterback play fast,” Macdonald said, via the team’s website

Good. Now they can go after FAs and Draft picks to fit that identity on Offense (unless JS continues with the same old BS and waits until later in the processes before drafting or signing FA IOL).

[c_hawkbob]

Glad we finally made the move.

[River Dog]

We want our offense to be a physical unit and dictate terms to the defense, and play complementary football, and get the ball to our playmakers frequently in space, and let our quarterback play fast,” Macdonald said, via the team’s website

Good. Now they can go after FAs and Draft picks to fit that identity on Offense (unless JS continues with the same old BS and waits until later in the processes before drafting or signing FA IOL).

Yep. We need to know who the chef is and what it is he's going to cook before we go out and buy groceries.

[4XPIPS]

Glad the search is over, but does have a track record of being on a team for one season and bounces. Making a lateral move is interesting. Well let's see if we can improve on what we had last season.

[c_hawkbob]

Glad the search is over, but does have a track record of being on a team for one season and bounces. Making a lateral move is interesting. Well let's see if we can improve on what we had last season.

Well this time at least his HC was let go during the season and odds are a new hire HC is gonna want to bring his own coordinators with him so i can't put that one on him.

[River Dog]

Glad the search is over, but does have a track record of being on a team for one season and bounces. Making a lateral move is interesting. Well let's see if we can improve on what we had last season.

I hadn't realized that about him, and you're right, it is a concern. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

[Aseahawkfan]

Seems Kubiak wants to be a head coach. This is the next step: OC. He might have stayed longer in New Orleans, but that coach was fired.

If Kubiak wants a shot at head coach, he's going to have to perform well as an OC. I'm fine if he works his way to head coach as an OC here. If he's good and we do good, he gets his shot at head coach. If we're not good, then he's not making to head coach. So he has the motivation to do very well here to show he can take the next step up.

Klint leveraged his father's connections well. Not sure how good he is as an OC as he is very unproven.

[4XPIPS]

I know nothing about Klint Kubiak, and never heard much of him during the past few seasons. I never knew Gary had a son let alone he was coaching. I just was going off of what wikipedia had on him. He does have a bad track record of being on teams recently who fires their HCs, of course that isn't his fault. So I get Bob's point that a new HC would want to choose their own OC and quickly move on from him. However, in the past 3 seasons his name hardly ever came up as a hot OC, or a top tier OC, so again don't know much about him to say he is going to turn the page or not. I will say that he does seem desired enough to get an OC job, so that is saying something. Has worked with many different teams in either conference, so maybe he can pull some ideas here or there and be a solid OC. If he is gunning for a HC job, he will have to be one of the top 5 OCs in the league to be even considered, so that in itself should be motivation to do great by Mike Macdonald. Well one thing for sure we got a whole lot younger in our coaching staff. On record we may have one of the youngest coaching staffs collectively in the league, well maybe Leslie Frazer curves that higher for us, but just my opinion.

[Irish Greg 2.0]

Kubiak will feature lots of motion, formation variation, wide zone, 12 and 13 personnel. Some good news with the hiring is they are ahead of the hiring curve from last year and now with the OC in place they can have a much better idea what to look at in Mobile and in the draft process.

Also, from a source in the org - Schneider has been "pressurized" hard by ownership to finally fix the OL. Interesting to see how he does that, as he has been quality OL blind for years. But now, it seems like he has adult supervision.

[4XPIPS]

Kubiak will feature lots of motion, formation variation, wide zone, 12 and 13 personnel. Some good news with the hiring is they are ahead of the hiring curve from last year and now with the OC in place they can have a much better idea what to look at in Mobile and in the draft process.

Also, from a source in the org - Schneider has been "pressurized" hard by ownership to finally fix the OL. Interesting to see how he does that, as he has been quality OL blind for years. But now, it seems like he has adult supervision.

This all sounds good, but I am a firm believer in track records. Again, I would be happy to give Klint Kubiak the same benefit that I gave the hire of Grubb. However, Grubb came in as one of the top OCs in College, and his efficiency was one of the tops in the nation. Of course that is college, but he had that on his resume. Klint Kubiak as an OC hasn't been top in pretty much of anything, but again he is young and has a lot to offer. His philosophy maybe the perfect fit for us. I guess next season will be the litmus test.

[Irish Greg 2.0]

This all sounds good, but I am a firm believer in track records. Again, I would be happy to give Klint Kubiak the same benefit that I gave the hire of Grubb. However, Grubb came in as one of the top OCs in College, and his efficiency was one of the tops in the nation. Of course that is college, but he had that on his resume. Klint Kubiak as an OC hasn't been top in pretty much of anything, but again he is young and has a lot to offer. His philosophy maybe the perfect fit for us. I guess next season will be the litmus test.

That's the thing - with our defense, we don't need "Top". We just need competent.

The Saints came out of the gate on fire offensively last season (they scored 91 points in the first two games - that's like 5 games for Grubb, haha) -- then got ravaged by injuries. I wouldn't look too closely from the outside at his "lack of success". He was putting frigging Spencer Rattler out there at QB, lol.

The bigger issue is the adaptability to what Macdonald wants to do. For some reason, Grubb refused to commit to the run last season and that's what cost him his job. They need an OC willing to take direction from the head coach, and that was never going to be a guy like Chip Kelly, Doug Pederson, Mike McCarthy, etc.

[NorthHawk]

Context is everything in looking at whether an Offense struggled or not and a competent QB is a huge key.

The question to be answered is will the OL improve enough to give the Offense a good run game?
It’s up to JS to provide an upgrade in personnel through FA and the draft. After a decade or more of largely
ignoring the IOL I have my doubts.

[Oly]

I think Kubiak is a solid hire. It's important for Macdonald that he has an OC who knows how to play complementary football, and that's where Grubb's OC performance was lacking. Just as a rough comparison, I looked at run/pass balance. I expect to see that a team that's winning big will have more runs than passes, the opposite will be true when losing big, and in close games you should see similar run/pass numbers.

Here are the data for the Hawks last year. Last year the Hawks had more runs in only 3 games, all in wins. The biggest split was Week 1, with a 33:25 run:pass ratio. The others were just one or two more runs. My problem was in close games, Grubb panicked and called way too many passes. Or when we were winning and he didn't even try to close out the game on the ground. For example:

TEAM----W/L--SCORE--RUN:PASS
MIN-------L---24-27----15:43
SF---------L---24-36----20:52
ATL-------W---34-14----26:29
NE--------W---23-20----19:44
MIA-------W---24-3-----23:34
SF---------W---20-17----23:32
NYG-------L---20-29----11:40

Unless you have a super productive screen game, that's not complementary football. In the two biggest wins (ATL by 20 and MIA by 21) he called 14 more passes than runs. And even when losing games, he just gave up on the run. We can point to it being ineffective and Geno being more effective, but a good OC has to call more than 11 runs in a manageable game against the Giants and 15 runs in a close one against the Vikings.

Here are the Saints under Kubiak. These are the first two games of the season, the important because that's what Kubiak did did before injuries started to decimate the Saints:

TEAM----W/L--SCORE--RUN:PASS
CAR-------W---47-10----37:24
DAL-------W---44-19----39:16

A critic (not that I see any on this board, so I'm not pointing fingers here) could point to the first two games as being run-heavy because they were winning big and so of course you should have more runs. But note that (1) Grubb didn't do that, (2) NO were putting up more points than the Hawks ever did, (3) they were winning by more than the Hawks ever did, and (4) it shows his gut instinct regarding game management and complementary football.

I won't put all of the Saints data here because it's getting too long, but in the three most pass-heavy games (40, 42, and 42 passes), they were chasing the game and lost by around three scores. Even in their close losses, they didn't abandon the run game, and sometimes even ended up with more runs. They had six games with 30+ runs (double the Hawks) and four with fewer than 20 (the Hawks had six).

IG is right about injuries impacting performance, but playcalling shows us Kubiak's inclinations, and I think these fit Macdonald perfectly. Also, the couple of times I saw the Saints play, I remember being impressed at how creatively they used Kamara and the creative ways that they tried to scheme plays to get their inexperienced QBs out of the pocket and away from danger. It wasn't Lions-level creative, but the Hawks don't need that. They just need complementary playcalling, and I think Kubiak can deliver.

[Aseahawkfan]

Kubiak's resumé is so light that he's a bit of a blank slate. I don't mind taking a chance on a coach trying to make a name for themselves with promise. It seems MacDonald doesn't mind either. Should be interesting.

[4XPIPS]

IG is right about injuries impacting performance, but playcalling shows us Kubiak's inclinations, and I think these fit Macdonald perfectly. Also, the couple of times I saw the Saints play, I remember being impressed at how creatively they used Kamara and the creative ways that they tried to scheme plays to get their inexperienced QBs out of the pocket and away from danger. It wasn't Lions-level creative, but the Hawks don't need that. They just need complementary playcalling, and I think Kubiak can deliver.

Look I am all for giving the guy a chance. However, the perfect fit? Hmm I guess time will tell. I do trust Mike Macdonald is making the best decision for the team, so I will trust his decision We can cherry pick certain stat lines to justify the hire, but I what history tells me there are some potential red flags. I am not alone on this as many Seahawk pundits aren't calling this a sure fire hire themselves.

Here are positions he has held in the NFL

2024 Saints OC
2023 49ers Passing Game Coordinator
2022 Broncos Passing Game Coord & QB Coach
2021 Vikings OC
2019-2020 Vikings QB Coach
2016-2018 Offensive Assistant
2015 Chiefs WR Coach
2013-2014 Vikings Offensive Quality Control Coach

One can look at this and say "wow he has worked with a lot of different coaches and organizations, and has picked up some experience". Or some would say, "he sure doesn't stick around very much" When he was OC for the Vikings and the Saints, he has never finished in the top 10 in any category, whether it be passing, net yards per play, rushing, 3rd down efficiency. So again, I am all rooting for him and hopefully he can apply what he has learned from his NFL travels. Again I am not against the hire, but we shall see next season.

[River Dog]

IG is right about injuries impacting performance, but playcalling shows us Kubiak's inclinations, and I think these fit Macdonald perfectly. Also, the couple of times I saw the Saints play, I remember being impressed at how creatively they used Kamara and the creative ways that they tried to scheme plays to get their inexperienced QBs out of the pocket and away from danger. It wasn't Lions-level creative, but the Hawks don't need that. They just need complementary playcalling, and I think Kubiak can deliver.

Look I am all for giving the guy a chance. However, the perfect fit? Hmm I guess time will tell. I do trust Mike Macdonald is making the best decision for the team, so I will trust his decision We can cherry pick certain stat lines to justify the hire, but I what history tells me there are some potential red flags. I am not alone on this as many Seahawk pundits aren't calling this a sure fire hire themselves.

Here are positions he has held in the NFL

2024 Saints OC
2023 49ers Passing Game Coordinator
2022 Broncos Passing Game Coord & QB Coach
2021 Vikings OC
2019-2020 Vikings QB Coach
2016-2018 Offensive Assistant
2015 Chiefs WR Coach
2013-2014 Vikings Offensive Quality Control Coach

One can look at this and say "wow he has worked with a lot of different coaches and organizations, and has picked up some experience". Or some would say, "he sure doesn't stick around very much" When he was OC for the Vikings and the Saints, he has never finished in the top 10 in any category, whether it be passing, net yards per play, rushing, 3rd down efficiency. So again, I am all rooting for him and hopefully he can apply what he has learned from his NFL travels. Again I am not against the hire, but we shall see next season.

I agree with 4XPIPS. If I were hiring him at my former place of employment, no way would I hire a wandering soul like him. Sure, the NFL is a very fluid business, and my experience doesn't compare with that in the NFL. But Holy cow, that's a lot of movement. And they're not all due to moving up the ladder. What makes us think that Seattle will be any different? That's a huge warning sign.

Like I said earlier, I'm trusting Macdonald on these types of decisions until proven otherwise. But this one does raise some eyebrows.

[NorthHawk]

It’s how coaches climb the ladder these days. It’s not like the old days for the most part when a coach would stay with an organization for a few years. Unless he’s a star and the team continues to promote from within. In most cases opportunities arise and they decide to move on or they have a change of HC who either wants his own people in place or have a different philosophy. As well, Coordinators will sometimes fall out of favor like Bobby Slowick who was the OC of the Texans and last year was considered one of the young OCs on the rise and I think turned down a HC position to stay. The seahawks were said to have been interested in him last year.

[River Dog]

It’s how coaches climb the ladder these days. It’s not like the old days for the most part when a coach would stay with an organization for a few years. Unless he’s a star and the team continues to promote from within. In most cases opportunities arise and they decide to move on or they have a change of HC who either wants his own people in place or have a different philosophy. As well, Coordinators will sometimes fall out of favor like Bobby Slowick who was the OC of the Texans and last year was considered one of the young OCs on the rise and I think turned down a HC position to stay. The seahawks were said to have been interested in him last year.

Yeah, maybe. The NFL is a different monster. But it is a legitimate concern. This guy hasn't stuck around in one spot long enough to prove himself.

[Oly]

Look I am all for giving the guy a chance. However, the perfect fit? Hmm I guess time will tell. I do trust Mike Macdonald is making the best decision for the team, so I will trust his decision We can cherry pick certain stat lines to justify the hire, but I what history tells me there are some potential red flags. I am not alone on this as many Seahawk pundits aren't calling this a sure fire hire themselves.

Here are positions he has held in the NFL

2024 Saints OC
2023 49ers Passing Game Coordinator
2022 Broncos Passing Game Coord & QB Coach
2021 Vikings OC
2019-2020 Vikings QB Coach
2016-2018 Offensive Assistant
2015 Chiefs WR Coach
2013-2014 Vikings Offensive Quality Control Coach

One can look at this and say "wow he has worked with a lot of different coaches and organizations, and has picked up some experience". Or some would say, "he sure doesn't stick around very much" When he was OC for the Vikings and the Saints, he has never finished in the top 10 in any category, whether it be passing, net yards per play, rushing, 3rd down efficiency. So again, I am all rooting for him and hopefully he can apply what he has learned from his NFL travels. Again I am not against the hire, but we shall see next season.

I was only really trying to talk about his playcalling tendencies as a perfect fit, but the point is taken that it's hard to know how much of those tendencies would have been different in a different situation. Maybe other factors in NO dictated his playcalling and that doesn't reflect who he wants to be as a coach.

As others above have noted, while there are lots of titles, that's just how you climb. Now, if he had been making a bunch of lateral moves in that time, it's worrying. But if you wanted to predict the resume of a coach who was seen as the Next Big Thing, you'd predict exactly this pattern of quick promotions. And when you consider that you essentially see one team—the Vikings—keeping him around and promoting him for seven years except (except the Chiefs giving him his first coaching shot), it doesn't look nearly as bad.

I'm not saying he is the Next Big Thing. That's why I said I thought he was a "solid" hire. It's just that last year he showed that he calls plays in ways that fit with what Macdonald wants.

[NorthHawk]

On the flip side, I didn't hear his name being talked about for HC positions, so maybe he can stay here for a few years instead of having a revolving door at OC if we had a series of young and innovative coaches.

[4XPIPS]

On the flip side, I didn't hear his name being talked about for HC positions, so maybe he can stay here for a few years instead of having a revolving door at OC if we had a series of young and innovative coaches.

Well if he didn't work out after a year, it wouldn't be out of the realm for him to be one and done. -

[NorthHawk]

If he’s a disaster, of course but from what I’ve heard and read is MacDonald wants more emphasis on the run game and Kubiak should be able to deliver that along with a pass game that has impact.
A lot of that has to do with an improved OL, though.

[Irish Greg 2.0]

It's not like they had a ton of choices for good fits as OC. Kubiak was likely the best of the best, in their opinion.

[Stream Hawk]

Kubiak will feature lots of motion, formation variation, wide zone, 12 and 13 personnel. Some good news with the hiring is they are ahead of the hiring curve from last year and now with the OC in place they can have a much better idea what to look at in Mobile and in the draft process.

Also, from a source in the org - Schneider has been "pressurized" hard by ownership to finally fix the OL. Interesting to see how he does that, as he has been quality OL blind for years. But now, it seems like he has adult supervision.

And that is interesting about JS being pressurized hard by ownership to fix the OL. It's not like he hasn't swung a few times; perhaps he needs better scouting.

Kubiak was likely their top choice. They interviewed him twice and didn't waste much time making the decision. I heard several times during the season that if the Seahawks had an average OC they'd likely have won a couple more games. The offense should improve with an average+ OC. It'll be interesting what the offseason delivers.

[NorthHawk]

JS has never respected the IOL and went so far as trading away a Pro Bowl Center without an obvious replacement. We’re still looking for one a decade later. He did draft Lewis at RG who had a good rookie year but then moved him to LG when he traded for a castoff from the Raiders who had played LG in the past but wanted to play RG. The Raiders subsequently cut their LG later but the Seahawks already had Lewis in that spot. It seems like Lewis regressed for a season or two then was let go to FA forcing JS to sign another castoff to fill the spot at LG. The OL needs to work together for more than 1 season to be really effective but we’ve seen the Seahawks make 3 or 4 changes just about every year during that decade.
JS has to get serious about spending money and draft picks on players that are early enough in their careers to actually play here for more than 1 year along the IOL. Otherwise it will never improve.

[River Dog]

Kubiak will feature lots of motion, formation variation, wide zone, 12 and 13 personnel. Some good news with the hiring is they are ahead of the hiring curve from last year and now with the OC in place they can have a much better idea what to look at in Mobile and in the draft process.

Also, from a source in the org - Schneider has been "pressurized" hard by ownership to finally fix the OL. Interesting to see how he does that, as he has been quality OL blind for years. But now, it seems like he has adult supervision.

And that is interesting about JS being pressurized hard by ownership to fix the OL. It's not like he hasn't swung a few times; perhaps he needs better scouting.

A couple years ago, I went through a little exercise where I chartered all our draft choices of the PC/JS era, assigned each position a number based on their draft choice, then ranked the positions. Offensive line was at or near the bottom. They didn't prioritize it.

[NorthHawk]

The IOL in particular.
Let's hope JS's eyes have been opened about this otherwise he may end up being sent down the road. I read a comment (Brady Henderson, maybe??) that the ownership and mgmt group has told him that the OL has to be fixed.
We've been talking about the IOL for a decade or more now so he should see it too.

[River Dog]

The IOL in particular.
Let's hope JS's eyes have been opened about this otherwise he may end up being sent down the road. I read a comment (Brady Henderson, maybe??) that the ownership and mgmt group has told him that the OL has to be fixed.
We've been talking about the IOL for a decade or more now so he should see it too.

I swear that Pete and John considered the offensive guard position as nothing more than a fallback for a busted tackle, so that they didn't have to admit to a poor draft selection. If it wasn't for that safety net, they never would have spent a first-round draft pick on an offensive lineman.

[Aseahawkfan]

I swear that Pete and John considered the offensive guard position as nothing more than a fallback for a busted tackle, so that they didn't have to admit to a poor draft selection. If it wasn't for that safety net, they never would have spent a first-round draft pick on an offensive lineman.

I think they valued the tackle position, especially left tackle. We spent some high picks on left tackle. They really undervalued the guard and center position. Too many experiments at guard and center. They were always trying to go low draft picks at guard and center, especially center. I'm not sure what the average draft position is for the best centers, but whatever it was it wasn't what we were doing in Seattle.

[NorthHawk]

They selected Ethan Pocic in the 2nd round at #58 then played him at Guard with only a few games at Center. They then let him go and Cleveland finally got him and had him develop into a starting NFL Center.
As we know they also messed around with Damien Lewis and he's doing well in Carolina. They didn't want to pay Lewis and look at the travesty we've had a LG.
The history of neglect along the IOL can't help but make me think that it's going to continue. It's just who JS is.

[TriCitySam]

They took shots early on (Carpenter, Moffitt), but with not much success. Hard to argue the difficulty of drafting OL. Mike Shanahan felt it was a waste to draft them high - much like JS. Unless they move back in the draft, I don't see a guard. The most successful lines have very seasoned players - more than 4 years, and our young guys we lose on FA.

[Aseahawkfan]

They took shots early on (Carpenter, Moffitt), but with not much success. Hard to argue the difficulty of drafting OL. Mike Shanahan felt it was a waste to draft them high - much like JS. Unless they move back in the draft, I don't see a guard. The most successful lines have very seasoned players - more than 4 years, and our young guys we lose on FA.

That makes sense because when they came in here they were following Mike Shanahan's zone blocking scheme and the O-line valuation method he used.

[NorthHawk]

Carpenter was drafted as a RT and had he worked out he would never been moved to G.
Britt was the same and ended up as a C after being tried at G but when he was injured he was let go iirc.
Moffit was a G in College but ended up having some emotional issues. Outside of Lewis not many Guards or Centers were drafted in the early rounds but more than a few were bypassed even with glaring needs being identified.

[River Dog]

Carpenter was drafted as a RT and had he worked out he would never been moved to G.
Britt was the same and ended up as a C after being tried at G but when he was injured he was let go iirc.
Moffit was a G in College but ended up having some emotional issues. Outside of Lewis not many Guards or Centers were drafted in the early rounds but more than a few were bypassed even with glaring needs being identified.

Even Carpenter's college coach was surprised that he was drafted as high as he was. He reported to camp out of shape, was breathing like a vacuum cleaner in the first series of our first preseason game. After his rookie season, we moved him to guard where he got beat out by a journeyman named Paul McQuistan and didn't even suit up for a couple of playoff games in our SB run. Horrible draft pick, late first round if I remember correctly.

#18 overall might be a little too much capital to spend on a center, but I'd sure like to see us grab one in the 2nd round at #50.

[NorthHawk]

This year Center at 18 probably isn’t the best use of a 1st round pick but there have been years when it could be justified and will be more in the future. However there are a couple of Guards and some OTs that look like they are more suited to Guard that I think can be worth the 18th selection. Perhaps there will be some good Guards or Centers in FA that are still young enough to be able to build around and not just older veterans as single year stopgap solutions.

[TriCitySam]

I think my comment on Carpenter would be that he wasn't terrible. He stayed in the league 10 years and started 128 games, it is one of those deals where unless you're exceptional, it takes time to develop. Saban didn't diss the pick, called him "tough, physical and athletic. He was surprised he was a 1st round (25th), most thought 2nd or 3rd, but he had a good Senior Bowl and played both T & G that bumped him up. "A tackle back-up and could be a very good starting guard". I think the challenge is time. Many simply are just starting to develop and then become FAs.