Sando QB rankings

[HumanCockroach]

until you acknowledge the team Wilson was given ( ie over half the starters are GONE or have been DRAFTED AFTER he arrived) then you aren't even in the REALM of objective ( per usual). Just an FYI as well, Wilson has a HELL of a lot more yards and TD's in the Post season than you are giving him credit for, or had you already forgotten what he did in his first playoff experience already? is that just conveniently ignoring of them, or are you really having trouble with your memory? Luck has produced almost 2 to 1 turnover to TD ratio in the playoffs in TWO seasons. Not sure why it is difficult for you to look at stats and read them, but you might want to get that checked.

It is NOT complicated to see Luck had MORE talent in both the receiver core and the offensive line game ONE of his rookie season, unless of course you are hell bent on ignoring the names in those groups, which obviously you are. Suck Lucks nuts for all I care, "objectively" Wilson has outperformed Luck in EVERY major statistical category except yardage which is a DIRECT result of the amount of attempts as opposed to length of throws, completion percentage etc.

As for your FEEBLE attempt at "Wilson struggled the first half of the year" excuse, I AGREE he DID indeed do so, he grew and improved by game 8 that rookie year, what's Luck's excuse after two FULL seasons at the helm? is it still talent? Is Baldwin and Kearse that much better than Harrison? I guess in your weird little world it is, but here in the REAL world, for all their clutch ability, not to many people lean that way.

Wilson has done things PASSING the ball that Luck couldn't, and DIDN'T do, he did things that NO ONE in the HISTORY did with his ARM, tell me how the defense inflated his ranks in the history of the game again, or how Lynch made all those pin point throws to win games.... you're grasping at straws man.

Of the "young" QB's not a SINGLE one of them has PRODUCED at the level of Wilson, period, and there isn't a damn thing you can say or do to make that not true.

[Futureite]

until you acknowledge the team Wilson was given ( ie over half the starters are GONE or have been DRAFTED AFTER he arrived) then you aren't even in the REALM of objective ( per usual). Just an FYI as well, Wilson has a HELL of a lot more yards and TD's in the Post season than you are giving him credit for, or had you already forgotten what he did in his first playoff experience already? is that just conveniently ignoring of them, or are you really having trouble with your memory? Luck has produced almost 2 to 1 turnover to TD ratio in the playoffs in TWO seasons. Not sure why it is difficult for you to look at stats and read them, but you might want to get that checked.

It is NOT complicated to see Luck had MORE talent in both the receiver core and the offensive line game ONE of his rookie season, unless of course you are hell bent on ignoring the names in those groups, which obviously you are. Suck Lucks nuts for all I care, "objectively" Wilson has outperformed Luck in EVERY major statistical category except yardage which is a DIRECT result of the amount of attempts as opposed to length of throws, completion percentage etc.

As for your FEEBLE attempt at "Wilson struggled the first half of the year" excuse, I AGREE he DID indeed do so, he grew and improved by game 8 that rookie year, what's Luck's excuse after two FULL seasons at the helm? is it still talent? Is Baldwin and Kearse that much better than Harrison? I guess in your weird little world it is, but here in the REAL world, for all their clutch ability, not to many people lean that way.

Wilson has done things PASSING the ball that Luck couldn't, and DIDN'T do, he did things that NO ONE in the HISTORY did with his ARM, tell me how the defense inflated his ranks in the history of the game again, or how Lynch made all those pin point throws to win games.... you're grasping at straws man.

Of the "young" QB's not a SINGLE one of them has PRODUCED at the level of Wilson, period, and there isn't a damn thing you can say or do to make that not true.

"Is it talent?" Uh, yes. Talent is the reason Alex Smith had what, 8 TDs and 0 ints in the postseason. Talented D that continually gave him the ball in the redzone, over and over again and allowed him to play mistake free ball. If he didn't get a first down or kicked a FG, he knew the D had his back.

You understand this concept and so does every single person that posts here. You are all knowledgable fans. Lol for all the homer comments I get here I am rating your QB above ours, putting your corner on the same level with a 49er LB that is actually on a HOF pace for sacks never seen before, and still it is not good enough.

RW's been great but he sucked balls in the playoffs and everyone saw it. Deal with it. He had no rhythm when forced to sit in the pocket and looked lost. I dealt with "one read Kaeperdouche" for 1+ yrs now. If I can live wirh it so can you.

[kalibane]

In what world does a QB post a QB rating over a 100 and complete 64% of his passes at a clip of 8.5 yards per attempt with a 6::1 TD to INT ratio and it's considered sucking? Because he had one poor game on a day that was so windy that Drew Brees threw for less than 50 yards in the first half? You're right Future we are knowledgable... you're also talking to a guy who argues against how high Lynch ranks in the RBs, who's been exceedingly hard on the WRs for the past 15 years, who was critical of Shaun Alexander and Matt Hasselbeck at the height of their powers... but according to you all of a sudden my bias is getting in the way.

You're ridiculous, you're wrong and you're in denial, trolling or both.

[monkey]

Future: Luck's been the better QB!

Everyone: RW has been solidly superior in virtually every statistic kept on QBs.

Future: That's only because Luck's o-line is so bad!

Everyone: Our o-line is worse.

Future: Ok, then that's only because his running game is so bad!

Everyone: Their running game is every bit as good as ours.

Future: Ok, then that's only because the other team concentrates on stopping him because he's so good!

Everyone: So he's such a dangerous QB that his numbers are crappy?

Future: *chirp* *chirp* *chirp*

--------------

So, Future: I've lost track now- has Luck been the better QB, or has he *not* been the better QB but still is the better QB because of all your lame excuses for his subpar (compared to RW) play?

[RiverDog]

Like I said Riv... if you want to make the argument fine. I think it's a silly argument but whatever. But when you want to pick Montana over Marino but Luck over Wilson I don't want to hear from you. The case for Montana and against Marino is the EXACT opposite of the case for Luck and against Wilson. If he was arguing for Marino over Montana okay... but well as we see.

I was not making an argument. I was summarizing Futureite's argument. Personally, I feel that Russell is, at least at this juncture, a better quarterback than Luck, especially when you consider the type of team we have, ie a strong defense and a weak offensive line. He doesn't make mistakes, doesn't put our defense in bad positions, keeps games close. We haven't lost a game by more than a touchdown since he's been a starter, indeed, he has won a lot of close games for us. More than any other statistical number you throw up there, that's what separates Russell from Luck.

But both quarterbacks are entering just their third year of what could be a 15 year of so career. Time will tell which one is better, but right now, Russell definitely has the edge, and I think Futurerite is foolish to attempt to argue to the contrary. But it's his right, and I don't think it's trollish for him to express his opinion. He's drawn out some very good discussion from you guys and brought out a lot of information about both players that I otherwise wouldn't have known.

[HumanCockroach]

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... &Submit=Go

Defense has zero to do with what a QB does with the ball passing, otherwise Kap would have had a hell of a lot more success throwing the ball against Seattle in their games. Pick and choose Future, pick and choose however you feel like doing it, in that moment. I've provided in the past what Luck had to start with compared with Wilson, and it's Wilson that was on the short end of the stick big guy. Luck's roster had MORE proven and productive players than Wilson did when he walked on that field, and two years ago, you were MORE than happy to explain how sad our offense was, interesting how a couple successful seasons make you change your mind. We're used to it and all, but damn, the amount of selective arguments are astounding even for a troll like you.

Went back and gave you some information. I know you'll simply ignore, gloss over or make some lame excuse about your ability to "access" the information, but those are the offensive statistics for the season prior to Wilson and Luck arriving in the NFL, the difference between the two? Seattle had a QB with few interception and turnovers ( course they had a QB that more often than not refused to release the ball as well, taking sacks instead of turning it over) Indy threw the ball a lot, had bad QB play and threw almost 20 more interceptions that season than Seattles did..... hmmmm..... Not much the rest of a team can do when QB's like Painter are turning the ball over at a prodigous rate, but I'm sure it was all the running back, wide receivers and lines fault..... what a rube.

[kalibane]

Sorry Riv... when I said "you" I meant "you" as in a person in general, not "you" as in Riverdog.

I do think Future is trolling though. When a person takes the otherside of the exact same argument just because of the Jersey the players are wearing it pretty much shows you don't believe the argument. That person is just rationalizing their personal bias.

[burrrton]

Future: "Hm- I need to come up with something I can claim Luck has been better in. *reaches into ass* GOT IT:"

pocket presence, footwork and ability to command a prostyle O

Yes, those all-magic qualities that, also magically, don't seem to translate into *anything*.

Why don't you just make up some other subjective nonsense and call it "Futureite Units" and claim Luck has been head and shoulders better than everyone else at them because, well, because you say so?

RW's been great but he sucked balls in the playoffs and everyone saw it. Deal with it.

*facepalm*

Have you just effing ignored every goddamn one of the posts that detailed how good RW's been??

Your boyfriend Luck would *kill* to have RW's "ball-sucking" numbers, and none of your BS "BUT RUSSELL HAD A BAD GAME ONE TIME!" won't change that.

"Deal with it" yourself, Mr. SeahawksUnderYourSkin.

[kalibane]

The funny thing is Russell Wilson has played in a pro-style offense since his days at NC State. Soooo yeah.

[HumanCockroach]

I guess we're basing his entire two season on just the Saints game ( and only in the playoffs) now? doesn't seem like much of a body of work to me, but alrighty, what was Wilsons rating in the inclement weather, no one ( including Bree's a HOF headed QB, on a prolific offense) game? 69.7. Luck same round against an inferior opponent in much better weather? 53.... hmmmm.... wait I know, let's take Wilsons one game, and compare it to all of Lucks post season success, he'll definitely blow Wilson out of the water then...... Wilson 69.7 Luck 70.0 damn, not much seperation between Luck's entire body of work, and Wilsons worst game in the post season by FAR, hmmm, I wonder what would happen if we took all of his games into account.....



NOPE.... Luck had worse talent I tell ya, worse talent by far damn it, it was the lack of talent that makes him great!!!!

Jeebus Future, SMDH.

[burrrton]

The funny thing is Russell Wilson has played in a pro-style offense since his days at NC State. Soooo yeah.

But... BUT... YOU DO MORE THAN 'DIVE LEFT, DIVE RIGHT, STAND THERE LIKE A STATUE AND PASS' SO IT'S NOT LIKE PROFESSIONAL!

[Anthony]

The whole legend of Dan Marino is that he never had the supporting Cast. His best WR was a late round pick and both Clayton and Duper were shrimps. To say the were some of the best WRs in the league is a joke, neither ever made an all pro team. (Dwight Clark did though) Marino never had Wendell Tyler, Roger Craig, Tom Rathman, John Taylor, Brent Jones or that Jerry Rice kid who was kind of good. Marino was also a superior pocket passer and Montana could never have made a lot of the throws Marino made on a regular basis.

Andrew Luck has never been to the big game. In the Playoffs Andrew Luck has 6 TDs, 8 Ints, has a 70 passer rating, has a completion percentage of 55% and a playoff record of 1-2.

Russell Wilson won the Superbowl. In the playoffs Wilson has 6 TDs, 1 Int, has a passer rating of 102, 63% completion, and a playoff record of 4-1.

Funny how that works huh? Can't keep a consistant argument to save your life.

You can make up all the B.S. you want you can act like I don't know what I'm talking about but at least I'm conisistant in my arguments. I've always been Montana over Marino, Brady over Manning and now Wilson (so far) over Luck. My position doesn't change based on which Jersey the players are wearing.

Well criticizing a 2nd yr QB or not going to the big game after stepping into a 2 win team is absurd. You are citing a lot of stats, yet nearly everyone here is closing their eyes to the one stat that is least subject to debate: wins. In what world does a rookie QB light up the world on a 2 win team? RW struggled prerty well for half of his rookie season and would have had Indy nowhere near the playoffs had he started there. GB's D was aweful and RW was barely moving the ball that entire Monday Night game! I mean really, who is being objective here, you or me??

You do realize that I've posted Luck is better than Kaep too. Oh, that is "ok" because it's assumed he is here, but using the same benchmark you are applying, if Kaep had your Seattle 2013 D performance he'd have routed every single postseasin game. What kind of even benchmark is it to compare a guy who can put up friggin 100 yds passing and stull have a D that tugs the entire team all the way back from 20-3 to a guy in Luck who's D can barely hold a 20+ pt lead?

So you can ignore all of that and pretend RW's 300+ yds and 1 td combined in the playoffs and a gazillion redzone opps with only fgs to show was some masterful accomplishment that Luck could not achieve, but everyone saw it for what it was.

Now if I ranked the young QBs now it would be (1) Luck (2) RW (3) Kaep (4) Newton. But there is a big difference between 1 and 2-3 in pocket presence, footwork and ability to command a prostyle O. I think our guys can get there, but they are not there yet.

Actually Future we were not criticizing so much as showing why Rw has been better which is a fact, as to your ranking to bad the facts and stats show you are wrong again, To be honest Future you have nothing again, no fact no stat just opinion you are tying to make us believe is a fact. I mean everything you say like pocket presence the facts show you are wrong, everything you sy I wrong and no fact supports you.

Future just for once in your life just say in your opinion Luck is better, because the facts and stats say your wrong.

[Anthony]

until you acknowledge the team Wilson was given ( ie over half the starters are GONE or have been DRAFTED AFTER he arrived) then you aren't even in the REALM of objective ( per usual). Just an FYI as well, Wilson has a HELL of a lot more yards and TD's in the Post season than you are giving him credit for, or had you already forgotten what he did in his first playoff experience already? is that just conveniently ignoring of them, or are you really having trouble with your memory? Luck has produced almost 2 to 1 turnover to TD ratio in the playoffs in TWO seasons. Not sure why it is difficult for you to look at stats and read them, but you might want to get that checked.

It is NOT complicated to see Luck had MORE talent in both the receiver core and the offensive line game ONE of his rookie season, unless of course you are hell bent on ignoring the names in those groups, which obviously you are. Suck Lucks nuts for all I care, "objectively" Wilson has outperformed Luck in EVERY major statistical category except yardage which is a DIRECT result of the amount of attempts as opposed to length of throws, completion percentage etc.

As for your FEEBLE attempt at "Wilson struggled the first half of the year" excuse, I AGREE he DID indeed do so, he grew and improved by game 8 that rookie year, what's Luck's excuse after two FULL seasons at the helm? is it still talent? Is Baldwin and Kearse that much better than Harrison? I guess in your weird little world it is, but here in the REAL world, for all their clutch ability, not to many people lean that way.

Wilson has done things PASSING the ball that Luck couldn't, and DIDN'T do, he did things that NO ONE in the HISTORY did with his ARM, tell me how the defense inflated his ranks in the history of the game again, or how Lynch made all those pin point throws to win games.... you're grasping at straws man.

Of the "young" QB's not a SINGLE one of them has PRODUCED at the level of Wilson, period, and there isn't a damn thing you can say or do to make that not true.

"Is it talent?" Uh, yes. Talent is the reason Alex Smith had what, 8 TDs and 0 ints in the postseason. Talented D that continually gave him the ball in the redzone, over and over again and allowed him to play mistake free ball. If he didn't get a first down or kicked a FG, he knew the D had his back.

You understand this concept and so does every single person that posts here. You are all knowledgable fans. Lol for all the homer comments I get here I am rating your QB above ours, putting your corner on the same level with a 49er LB that is actually on a HOF pace for sacks never seen before, and still it is not good enough.

RW's been great but he sucked balls in the playoffs and everyone saw it. Deal with it. He had no rhythm when forced to sit in the pocket and looked lost. I dealt with "one read Kaeperdouche" for 1+ yrs now. If I can live wirh it so can you.

dude again you say nothing, provide some facts or stats, because right you are just plain wrong and have nothing.

[RiverDog]

Sorry Riv... when I said "you" I meant "you" as in a person in general, not "you" as in Riverdog.

I do think Future is trolling though. When a person takes the otherside of the exact same argument just because of the Jersey the players are wearing it pretty much shows you don't believe the argument. That person is just rationalizing their personal bias.

Understood, Kal. No need to apologize, though.

Whether or not Futureite is trolling or not is a matter of opinion. But whether or not he's trolling, you'll have to admit that he drew out some very good, and very entertaining, comments from the other members. He's keeping this place alive as without him, we'd be bored to death.

[burrrton]

Now feels like a good time to again chime in to say that I like Luck a lot, and wouldn't be surprised at all if he gets better in coming seasons (plus I feel like I'm jinxing RW with this ridiculous argument).

It's just that there simply is no argument either that Luck *has been* better (which is demonstrably nonsense), or that he *will be* better based on anything other than gut feeling (which is beyond debate, akin to saying you like chocolate better than vanilla).

[Anthony]

until you acknowledge the team Wilson was given ( ie over half the starters are GONE or have been DRAFTED AFTER he arrived) then you aren't even in the REALM of objective ( per usual). Just an FYI as well, Wilson has a HELL of a lot more yards and TD's in the Post season than you are giving him credit for, or had you already forgotten what he did in his first playoff experience already? is that just conveniently ignoring of them, or are you really having trouble with your memory? Luck has produced almost 2 to 1 turnover to TD ratio in the playoffs in TWO seasons. Not sure why it is difficult for you to look at stats and read them, but you might want to get that checked.

It is NOT complicated to see Luck had MORE talent in both the receiver core and the offensive line game ONE of his rookie season, unless of course you are hell bent on ignoring the names in those groups, which obviously you are. Suck Lucks nuts for all I care, "objectively" Wilson has outperformed Luck in EVERY major statistical category except yardage which is a DIRECT result of the amount of attempts as opposed to length of throws, completion percentage etc.

As for your FEEBLE attempt at "Wilson struggled the first half of the year" excuse, I AGREE he DID indeed do so, he grew and improved by game 8 that rookie year, what's Luck's excuse after two FULL seasons at the helm? is it still talent? Is Baldwin and Kearse that much better than Harrison? I guess in your weird little world it is, but here in the REAL world, for all their clutch ability, not to many people lean that way.

Wilson has done things PASSING the ball that Luck couldn't, and DIDN'T do, he did things that NO ONE in the HISTORY did with his ARM, tell me how the defense inflated his ranks in the history of the game again, or how Lynch made all those pin point throws to win games.... you're grasping at straws man.

Of the "young" QB's not a SINGLE one of them has PRODUCED at the level of Wilson, period, and there isn't a damn thing you can say or do to make that not true.

"Is it talent?" Uh, yes. Talent is the reason Alex Smith had what, 8 TDs and 0 ints in the postseason. Talented D that continually gave him the ball in the redzone, over and over again and allowed him to play mistake free ball. If he didn't get a first down or kicked a FG, he knew the D had his back.

You understand this concept and so does every single person that posts here. You are all knowledgable fans. Lol for all the homer comments I get here I am rating your QB above ours, putting your corner on the same level with a 49er LB that is actually on a HOF pace for sacks never seen before, and still it is not good enough.

RW's been great but he sucked balls in the playoffs and everyone saw it. Deal with it. He had no rhythm when forced to sit in the pocket and looked lost. I dealt with "one read Kaeperdouche" for 1+ yrs now. If I can live wirh it so can you.

Hmm sucked balls in the playoffs hmm seems to me the one sucking has been luck I Mean more ints and than TDs etc I mean Future you are looking like a fool making statements that are not true and in fact are lies

lets see about that
Now for another big comparison, playoffs the big games, career playoffs to date

RW 1096 yards, 63% complt%, 6 tds, 1 int, 8.47 YPA, 102 Qb rating, 169 rushing yards 1 td RW has never had a playoff game were he had a QB rating under 67 and only 1 game under 92
Luck 1062 yards, 54% complt%, 6 tds, 8 ints, 7.16 ypa, 68 qb rating, 85 rushing yards 0 tds Luck has only had 1 playoff game with a QB rating over 60

Now lets compare the 2 in the worst playoff performance

Luck NE 1/11/14
48 Complt%, 2tds, 4 ints qb rating 53 Lucks 3 o the 4 ints all led to points, and in fact his first It led to the first score of the game, his Ints made it so his Defense had ot be on the filed 10 minutes longer than NE, that is all on him, that is how a QB can help their defense, not turning it over allowing the defense to rest. Oh and Brady who beat Luck had a QB rating of 78 no tds, no Ints.

RW NO 1/11/14
50 Complt%, 0 tds, 0 ints, qb rating 67

Hmm seems Luck had by far the worst game of the worse games had he not thrown so many ints they would have won. Oh and NO defense ranked 4th, NE ranked 26th so not only did luck have the worse game but he did it against one of the worse defenses in the league while Rw had his 1 bad playoff game out of 5 against the #4 defense in the league.

[burrrton]

Futureite in about 10 minutes: "BUT ANTHONY RW SUCKS BALLS AND LUCK IS SO GOOD BECAUSE FOOTWORK AND PANACHE!"

[HumanCockroach]

What is amazing is really no one is saying Luck can't or won't have a better career, the entire debate hinges on what has been produced to this point.There isn't a leg to stand on in that regard, period. Wilson has been better, and only an idiot,or a jock sniffer would claim otherwise. Wilson has accomplished HISTORICALLY great numbers, Luck? not so much to this point, and that is obvious to ANYONE with a bit of intelligence, who bothered to look at the stats. The crazy thing is, he did so with less explosive skill players and a WORSE o-line than what Luck was handed the day he walked onto the field, in a tougher division, and in a better conference. There's a REASON Seattle and Indy had comparable offenses the year before either player was drafted ( because they had similar success, duh) and yet it is Wilson playing well in all but a single playoff game, while Luck has excelled in 1/2 of ONE of his three......

[NorthHawk]

The whole discussion at this point is about perception when looking at the two.
Luck is the prototypical QB that every team wants, while Wilson is considered too short.
People can't get past that prejudice, and that's why they have to fall back to the standard arguments about game manager, no pocket skills, etc. without any current verifiable evidence to back those statements up.

[Anthony]

The whole discussion at this point is about perception when looking at the two.
Luck is the prototypical QB that every team wants, while Wilson is considered too short.
People can't get past that prejudice, and that's why they have to fall back to the standard arguments about game manager, no pocket skills, etc. without any current verifiable evidence to back those statements up.

I wonder if Rw was white and under 6 foot and do all of this what would their reaction be? I guess we will find out with Johnny football. I am thinking if he was white he would already being hailed as a great QB, This issue is not just about his height, race is part of it, draft positioning is part of it, the fact he is mobile is part of it.

[NorthHawk]

The whole discussion at this point is about perception when looking at the two.
Luck is the prototypical QB that every team wants, while Wilson is considered too short.
People can't get past that prejudice, and that's why they have to fall back to the standard arguments about game manager, no pocket skills, etc. without any current verifiable evidence to back those statements up.

I wonder if Rw was white and under 6 foot and do all of this what would their reaction be? I guess we will find out with Johnny football. I am thinking if he was white he would already being hailed as a great QB, This issue is not just about his height, race is part of it, draft positioning is part of it, the fact he is mobile is part of it.

Geez, I had hoped we've evolved past that race stuff. Height is still a prejudice.

[Eaglehawk]

The funny thing is Russell Wilson has played in a pro-style offense since his days at NC State. Soooo yeah.

But... BUT... YOU DO MORE THAN 'DIVE LEFT, DIVE RIGHT, STAND THERE LIKE A STATUE AND PASS' SO IT'S NOT LIKE PROFESSIONAL!

Reminds me of the old Bledsoe days! That dude was a literal statue.

[HumanCockroach]

Not sure race has anything to do with it. I mean RGII, Kap, Newton are all minority QB's and I don't recall anyone questioning their ability in the last year or so. Newton got critisism for his attitude, Kap for his one read and poor pre snap recognition, and RGIII for his inability to slide that put hhis health at risk, but to the best of my knowledge, race has little to do with that stuff.Seattle currently has 4 black QB's on their roster, and no one said anything until Wilson pointed it out, no one mentioned him being the second african american QB to win a SB.... makes me think race is no longer an issue with that position.

[Anthony]

Not sure race has anything to do with it. I mean RGII, Kap, Newton are all minority QB's and I don't recall anyone questioning their ability in the last year or so. Newton got critisism for his attitude, Kap for his one read and poor pre snap recognition, and RGIII for his inability to slide that put hhis health at risk, but to the best of my knowledge, race has little to do with that stuff.Seattle currently has 4 black QB's on their roster, and no one said anything until Wilson pointed it out, no one mentioned him being the second african american QB to win a SB.... makes me think race is no longer an issue with that position.

Ahh but they are over 6 foot minority. What I am saying is that it is not just height but race also. Again think Manzell he is under 6 foot, yet a lot are saying he is going to be great in the NFL, no one said that about RW until he got here and kicked but, well except Gruden that is. I am not saying for sure race is an issue just it makes you wonder, if it is not an added knock.

Think about it
under 6 foot
3rd round
minority

I am betting it plays a part how big who knows.

[HumanCockroach]

I would guess the 3rd round thing is bigger than all of that stuff. "Expert" personnell guys and media analysts aren't big on not just being wrong, but damn wrong very often, and in this case they ALL whiffed pretty damn big. Hence the reason why Wilson had to FORCE his way into the discussion with Luck and RGIII his first season and still is dismissed by many and being inferior despite out playing both routinely and thouroghly no matter what certain people say or do, that is simply a fact, that is dismissed with subjective misdirection on a daily basis amongst analysts and certain misguided fans. Eventually they will have to acknowledge his performances ( and will more than likely say how they said it from day 1) but as of now, many can't accept how truly wrong they were about him, and as such lamely give credit for his performances to everyone that is NOT him on the team, for his success....

[NorthHawk]

Ego is a pretty big thing for guys like that.
I suppose it has to be when you are putting your opinions out there on a regular basis.

Can't say I can disagree with your last post, HC.

[Futureite]

In what world does a QB post a QB rating over a 100 and complete 64% of his passes at a clip of 8.5 yards per attempt with a 6::1 TD to INT ratio and it's considered sucking? Because he had one poor game on a day that was so windy that Drew Brees threw for less than 50 yards in the first half? You're right Future we are knowledgable... you're also talking to a guy who argues against how high Lynch ranks in the RBs, who's been exceedingly hard on the WRs for the past 15 years, who was critical of Shaun Alexander and Matt Hasselbeck at the height of their powers... but according to you all of a sudden my bias is getting in the way.

You're ridiculous, you're wrong and you're in denial, trolling or both.

I was referring to last yr's playoffs. RW threw 5 tds and 4 ints over the last 6 games (including the playoffs) and topped 200 yds twice. He had the exact same struggles Kap did over a similar stretch and the league clearly figured something out that worked. My observation was that teams were sendung a LB as soon as RW broke the pocket. That eliminated a lot of his buying of time, which is where the majority of his chunk yardage pass plays come from. He fumbled several times when LBs were sent, and when forced to just sit in one space and throw on time and in rhythm he was clearly off. You saw it in the Saints' game, you saw it for a good portion of the NFCCCG. Again, look at his yds: a scramble/long throw to Baldwin, a 30+ yd TD to Kearse on a free play. Nothing inpressive from the pocket at all.

I believe he'll adapt, but he is in no way on par with Luck in the pocket. Luck reads Ds quicker, has better footwork and deli ers the ball on time with defenders in his face. There is no true scheme to stop a pure pocket passer like that. I give RW the benefit of the doubt, but he is going to have to adapt his game to account for teams that have figured out how to take awat his legs. To be 100% honest I am a bit skeptical as to whether he can. But I will not say he "can't" until it's been proven over an.extended period of time.

My guess? Carroll prob won't ask him to (prove it). He'll throw a lot of bubble screens to Harvin and Richardson and hit each with deep balls off of playaction. He'll rely on Lynch and the D and take care of the ball. Then you'll say look what an idiot I am, he was 19-27 for 233 2 TDs and 0 ints with a 120 QB rating last game and had a 68% completion rate from the pocket last gane (pick one), how can I deny facts, yada yada. And I'll still say he is not asked to consistently do what Luck does until we actually see it.

[kalibane]

1. Your statement was about the playoffs. Not the last few games in the regular season and this playoffs. You're trying to move the goal posts again.

2. Interesting how you chose to conveniently start charting "down the stretch" in the regular season the game after he threw for 310 yards and 3 TDs against the same Saints team that he struggled against in the playoffs.

3. He struggled down the stretch against divisional opponents two of which were living in the backfield all day. The Rams have the number of this offensive line and Calais Campbell absolutely dominated up in Seattle. Plus we already covered that bogus interception against the Cards that you keep clinging to.

4. He didn't struggle in the NFC championship game or the Super Bowl. He had an early fumble when he was outside the pocket, not inside like you claimed. But after a slow start he played well and made big play after big play to get back into and win the game. If you think he played poorly it again shows your preoccupation with numbers. (If you weren't impressed with the free play TD then whatever, he said he could draw them off then stood in the pocket and rifled the ball over coverage. That was a big time throw whether it was a free play or not).

5. His struggles have never been the same as Kaepernicks. Kaepernick's problem is that he doesn't go through his progressions so when his first couple of reads are covered he doesn't know what to do. Wilson has no issues with working his progressions, which is why his passes are spread so evenly. One thing Wilson did have an issue with was feeling phantom pressure and leaving the pocket too early later on but that pretty much can be said of any QB playing behind a line as bad as the Hawks was in the first half of the season. It happened to Rodgers in 2012 for example.


Is there any chance you're going to be able to stay with one consistent argument throughout a discussion? You said Wilson struggles in the playoffs. He doesn't. For the most part he's been money, just not gaudy. I'm sorry he didn't help you win your fantasy football league.

[kalibane]

P.S. If you think that all Pete Carroll is going to do is call slip screens and "protect" Wilson you really haven't paid attention the last two seasons. He will throw slip screens because why wouldn't you with Percy Harvin on your team but he has always believed in taking multiple shots down the field every game to rip off large chunks of yardage. Of course I'm sure you'll see a couple screens thrown and say "see... see" as if Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Manning and even your beloved Luck don't throw them.

[Futureite]

1. Your statement was about the playoffs. Not the last few games in the regular season and this playoffs. You're trying to move the goal posts again.

2. Interesting how you chose to conveniently start charting "down the stretch" in the regular season the game after he threw for 310 yards and 3 TDs against the same Saints team that he struggled against in the playoffs.

3. He struggled down the stretch against divisional opponents two of which were living in the backfield all day. The Rams have the number of this offensive line and Calais Campbell absolutely dominated up in Seattle. Plus we already covered that bogus interception against the Cards that you keep clinging to.

4. He didn't struggle in the NFC championship game or the Super Bowl. He had an early fumble when he was outside the pocket, not inside like you claimed. But after a slow start he played well and made big play after big play to get back into and win the game. If you think he played poorly it again shows your preoccupation with numbers. (If you weren't impressed with the free play TD then whatever, he said he could draw them off then stood in the pocket and rifled the ball over coverage. That was a big time throw whether it was a free play or not).

5. His struggles have never been the same as Kaepernicks. Kaepernick's problem is that he doesn't go through his progressions so when his first couple of reads are covered he doesn't know what to do. Wilson has no issues with working his progressions, which is why his passes are spread so evenly. One thing Wilson did have an issue with was feeling phantom pressure and leaving the pocket too early later on but that pretty much can be said of any QB playing behind a line as bad as the Hawks was in the first half of the season. It happened to Rodgers in 2012 for example.


Is there any chance you're going to be able to stay with one consistent argument throughout a discussion? You said Wilson struggles in the playoffs. He doesn't. For the most part he's been money, just not gaudy. I'm sorry he didn't help you win your fantasy football league.

I think his struggles were identical to Kaepernick's. You are also forgettung that he started 1-11 V us game 2 last yr and did not get off the schneid until he hit a screen and again, another deep ball where he bought a ton of time. He is not a skilled or proven pocket passer Luck. He is prob going to have to become more of one this yr IMO.

You always point to the TOs but I keep telling you, he does not have to take any risks to win on that team. He knows it, Carrill knows it. NFC Champ game Lynch broke a long TD to tie the game at 10. After Kaep answered with a TD, Baldwin broke a 70+ yd kickoff return and Hawks kicked a FG, 17-13. Then, Whitner extended a drive on a personal foul penalty, Aldon jumps offsides on a 4th and 4 and RW throws a TD on a free play. He gets the ball again TWICE in the redzone up 20-17 and comes away with 3 pts. That game was won down the stretch by Lynch, D and STs in no particular order. RW was not asked to do much with his arm, and even when presented wirh 3 redzone opps in the second half put up only 6 pts.
He was clearly struggling and the manner in whuch Seattle won bears that out.

The point is not to bash RW. I am not saying he cannot adapt, just that he will have to. He is a young QB and has enough time to make adjustments. Right now he does what he is asked and does it well. But the indignance of being rated below Luck is unfounded IMO. Luck is asked to do more, with less help and he is a more talented QB than any of the other 3 or 4 ypung guys. Like I said, I hope our guys make the leap this yr.

[kalibane]

Our guy already did. But then if you saw Kaep and Wilson and think you saw the same issues and you didn't see the talent on the Niners before Harbaugh it's not exactly surprising that the nuances of the game escape you.

[Anthony]

In what world does a QB post a QB rating over a 100 and complete 64% of his passes at a clip of 8.5 yards per attempt with a 6::1 TD to INT ratio and it's considered sucking? Because he had one poor game on a day that was so windy that Drew Brees threw for less than 50 yards in the first half? You're right Future we are knowledgable... you're also talking to a guy who argues against how high Lynch ranks in the RBs, who's been exceedingly hard on the WRs for the past 15 years, who was critical of Shaun Alexander and Matt Hasselbeck at the height of their powers... but according to you all of a sudden my bias is getting in the way.

You're ridiculous, you're wrong and you're in denial, trolling or both.

I was referring to last yr's playoffs. RW threw 5 tds and 4 ints over the last 6 games (including the playoffs) and topped 200 yds twice. He had the exact same struggles Kap did over a similar stretch and the league clearly figured something out that worked. My observation was that teams were sendung a LB as soon as RW broke the pocket. That eliminated a lot of his buying of time, which is where the majority of his chunk yardage pass plays come from. He fumbled several times when LBs were sent, and when forced to just sit in one space and throw on time and in rhythm he was clearly off. You saw it in the Saints' game, you saw it for a good portion of the NFCCCG. Again, look at his yds: a scramble/long throw to Baldwin, a 30+ yd TD to Kearse on a free play. Nothing inpressive from the pocket at all.

I believe he'll adapt, but he is in no way on par with Luck in the pocket. Luck reads Ds quicker, has better footwork and deli ers the ball on time with defenders in his face. There is no true scheme to stop a pure pocket passer like that. I give RW the benefit of the doubt, but he is going to have to adapt his game to account for teams that have figured out how to take awat his legs. To be 100% honest I am a bit skeptical as to whether he can. But I will not say he "can't" until it's been proven over an.extended period of time.

My guess? Carroll prob won't ask him to (prove it). He'll throw a lot of bubble screens to Harvin and Richardson and hit each with deep balls off of playaction. He'll rely on Lynch and the D and take care of the ball. Then you'll say look what an idiot I am, he was 19-27 for 233 2 TDs and 0 ints with a 120 QB rating last game and had a 68% completion rate from the pocket last gane (pick one), how can I deny facts, yada yada. And I'll still say he is not asked to consistently do what Luck does until we actually see it.

yes lets selectively pick a few games were you can try to say he did no play well, games after we already clinched the playoffs. You are really pathetic if that is all you got. Remind me again I believe record setting performance in the super bowl.

[Anthony]

1. Your statement was about the playoffs. Not the last few games in the regular season and this playoffs. You're trying to move the goal posts again.

2. Interesting how you chose to conveniently start charting "down the stretch" in the regular season the game after he threw for 310 yards and 3 TDs against the same Saints team that he struggled against in the playoffs.

3. He struggled down the stretch against divisional opponents two of which were living in the backfield all day. The Rams have the number of this offensive line and Calais Campbell absolutely dominated up in Seattle. Plus we already covered that bogus interception against the Cards that you keep clinging to.

4. He didn't struggle in the NFC championship game or the Super Bowl. He had an early fumble when he was outside the pocket, not inside like you claimed. But after a slow start he played well and made big play after big play to get back into and win the game. If you think he played poorly it again shows your preoccupation with numbers. (If you weren't impressed with the free play TD then whatever, he said he could draw them off then stood in the pocket and rifled the ball over coverage. That was a big time throw whether it was a free play or not).

5. His struggles have never been the same as Kaepernicks. Kaepernick's problem is that he doesn't go through his progressions so when his first couple of reads are covered he doesn't know what to do. Wilson has no issues with working his progressions, which is why his passes are spread so evenly. One thing Wilson did have an issue with was feeling phantom pressure and leaving the pocket too early later on but that pretty much can be said of any QB playing behind a line as bad as the Hawks was in the first half of the season. It happened to Rodgers in 2012 for example.


Is there any chance you're going to be able to stay with one consistent argument throughout a discussion? You said Wilson struggles in the playoffs. He doesn't. For the most part he's been money, just not gaudy. I'm sorry he didn't help you win your fantasy football league.

I think his struggles were identical to Kaepernick's. You are also forgettung that he started 1-11 V us game 2 last yr and did not get off the schneid until he hit a screen and again, another deep ball where he bought a ton of time. He is not a skilled or proven pocket passer Luck. He is prob going to have to become more of one this yr IMO.

You always point to the TOs but I keep telling you, he does not have to take any risks to win on that team. He knows it, Carrill knows it. NFC Champ game Lynch broke a long TD to tie the game at 10. After Kaep answered with a TD, Baldwin broke a 70+ yd kickoff return and Hawks kicked a FG, 17-13. Then, Whitner extended a drive on a personal foul penalty, Aldon jumps offsides on a 4th and 4 and RW throws a TD on a free play. He gets the ball again TWICE in the redzone up 20-17 and comes away with 3 pts. That game was won down the stretch by Lynch, D and STs in no particular order. RW was not asked to do much with his arm, and even when presented wirh 3 redzone opps in the second half put up only 6 pts.
He was clearly struggling and the manner in whuch Seattle won bears that out.

The point is not to bash RW. I am not saying he cannot adapt, just that he will have to. He is a young QB and has enough time to make adjustments. Right now he does what he is asked and does it well. But the indignance of being rated below Luck is unfounded IMO. Luck is asked to do more, with less help and he is a more talented QB than any of the other 3 or 4 ypung guys. Like I said, I hope our guys make the leap this yr.

No your point is to find any excuse, most of which have been factually proven to be lies, to convince yourself RW is not as good as Luck or your boy toy Kap. Unfortunately the facts and stats show your wrong and ignoring them and me only proves are point.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Future; you make good points regarding RW and his pocket passing, to a point. But, you miss one huge detail, Wilson is playing behind an O-line that doesn't pass block very well. It is hard for any QB to be a successful "pocket Passer" when you don't have any time to throw from the pocket. Lets see how RW throws from the pocket when he is playing behind a really good O-Line before we pass judgment.

[NorthHawk]

Regarding the OL, there was one stat earlier this year about the Hawks OL that said 85% of the sacks were given up when playing against a 4 man rush.
5 guys not able to stop 4.
That's a huge indictment of the productivity or performance of the OL last year.

[HumanCockroach]

It strikes me that Futures entire premise is based on whether a QB stands in the pocket takes a hit and delivers the ball. At least that is how it seems, but being able to pass the ball from the pocket while being hit, and being a "good" pocket passer are NOT the same thing, and Wilson not Luck has BETTER success INSIDE the pocket. I have little problem acknowledging that Luck has the ability to throw the ball while getting hit. If that is the type of QB Future prefers, than more power to him, and best of luck keeping Luck healthy for long stretches, Indy will have to invest heavily to do so in the offensive line.

The interesting thing to me is, that it is indeed Wilson ( a QB that will move to extend plays) not Luck ( a farly mobile inside the pocket QB, but still a strictly pocket QB) that has MORE success inside the pocket. And the combination of Wilsons ability to extend plays, be a more successful in the pocket, AND outside the pocket along with his MORE TD passes, and LESS turnovers, that makes his points ( at least up to this point) ridiculous.Wilson has outperformed Luck in almost EVERY statistical category that matters, and it isn't even CLOSE.

[Anthony]

Future; you make good points regarding RW and his pocket passing, to a point. But, you miss one huge detail, Wilson is playing behind an O-line that doesn't pass block very well. It is hard for any QB to be a successful "pocket Passer" when you don't have any time to throw from the pocket. Lets see how RW throws from the pocket when he is playing behind a really good O-Line before we pass judgment.

Actually he does not make a good point about Rw pocket passing as I have already shown it has been better than lucks

https://www.profootballfocus.com/wp-con ... ramble.png

As you can see Luck has a 60.3 % complt% in the pocket While Rw has 66.1%. Luck has a accuracy of 69.9% RW is at 72.6 SO again Future is wrong and the facts show it.

[Anthony]

It strikes me that Futures entire premise is based on whether a QB stands in the pocket takes a hit and delivers the ball. At least that is how it seems, but being able to pass the ball from the pocket while being hit, and being a "good" pocket passer are NOT the same thing, and Wilson not Luck has BETTER success INSIDE the pocket. I have little problem acknowledging that Luck has the ability to throw the ball while getting hit. If that is the type of QB Future prefers, than more power to him, and best of luck keeping Luck healthy for long stretches, Indy will have to invest heavily to do so in the offensive line.

The interesting thing to me is, that it is indeed Wilson ( a QB that will move to extend plays) not Luck ( a farly mobile inside the pocket QB, but still a strictly pocket QB) that has MORE success inside the pocket. And the combination of Wilsons ability to extend plays, be a more successful in the pocket, AND outside the pocket along with his MORE TD passes, and LESS turnovers, that makes his points ( at least up to this point) ridiculous.Wilson has outperformed Luck in almost EVERY statistical category that matters, and it isn't even CLOSE.

well lets go one step further an see how they compare against pressure,

Luck has a 44.1 % complet under pressure and 58.9 accuracy.
Rw is 49.3 complt% against pressure and 63.4 accuracy WINNER

https://www.profootballfocus.com/wp-con ... essure.png

So lets sum up

SO lets get this out of the way

Inside the pocket

Luck 60.3 complt%, and 69.9 accuracy
RW 66.1 complt%, and 72.6 accuracy WINNER

Off Scrambles

Luck 38.1 complt%, and 64.3 accuracy
RW 50.9 complt%, and 68.1 accuracy WINNER

Over all

Luck 8196 yards, 57 complt%, 6.85 YPA, 46 tds, 27 ints, 81.5 QB rating (85 is avg)
RW 6475 yards, 63.6 COmplt%, 8.09 YPA, 52 tds, 19 ints, 100.6 QB rating WINNER

Playoff/big Games
RW 1096 yards, 63% complt%, 6 tds, 1 int, 8.47 YPA, 102 Qb rating, 169 rushing yards 1 td WINNER
Luck 1062 yards, 54% complt%, 6 tds, 8 ints, 7.16 ypa, 68 qb rating, 85 rushing yards 0 tds


Common Opponents

Russell Wilson Versus common opponents. WINNER

Completions: 126
Attempts: 216
Yards: 1577.00
Completion Rate: 58.33%
TD: 13
INT:5
Passer Rating: 91.53

Andrew Luck versus common opponents.

Completions: 180
Attempts: 324
Yards: 2097.00
Completion Rate: 55.55%
TD: 10
INT: 7
Passer Rating: 79.2




RW is better in the pocket, out of the pocket, under pressure, in the playoffs(big Games), against common opponents and over all enough said.

[HumanCockroach]

Like I said, I think he feels getting hit makes a QB a better pocket QB. Kind of silly to me, but eh. The truth is that Wilson has indeed outperformed Luck as you have shown in EVERY way imagineable, some guys prefer a certain type of QB and in this case that is shading his ability to be "objective" ( and honestly, the color of the jersey in Seattle does that in every instance it seems).