Irvin out all of training camp?

[RiverDog]

The Hawks placed Irvin on the PUP. Pete says that it might take all of training camp to get Bruce Irvin healthy, recovering from the same hip surgery Percy Harvin had last season... and we all know how that one went.

Last season, Irvin was hindered by the 4 game suspension for PED's. This year, he's coming back from an injury and if it's going to take him all of training camp just to get healthy, he's probably not going to see much action the first month of the season. With Malcolm Smith winning the SB MVP and clearly the better pass defender, what happens to Irvin? Another position change? Does he stick with the team? Do we trade him?

[HumanCockroach]

Will be interesting to see. Smith may have been clearly the better pass defender ( though Irvin still ranked in the top 10 of all players in his position in the NFL in that regard as well) but Irvin is clearly the better run defender, and obviously coaches still feel he is the better pass rusher. They aren't trading him, and they aren't cutting him. Whether he regains his starting position remains to be seen. I doubt they move him ( as they have already publicly said they aren't) to another position. Chances are he recovers, and then competes with Smith for starting reps. They did it last year, and it worked out well, not sure why they would go away from it, just for the sake of doing so. Irvin will play some downs probably with his hand down in the dirt, but based on what the staff has said about him, he'll remain an OLB.

[Bird Droppings]

I suspect they were going to create some scenarios to get him pass rushing through gaps, rather than just trying to circle in from outside.

But, with this injury thing expected to linger, will they abandon new ideas and just throw him in to last year's roles.

They've added two more phreaks (Horace Miller and Denmark) who are longshots to hit the 53 man, but could fit on the practice squad ... and Denmark is very similar to Irvin.

Good to see you didn't dump on him, Dog.

But, in one more year, you might be so entitled.

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[RiverDog]

I suspect they were going to create some scenarios to get him pass rushing through gaps, rather than just trying to circle in from outside.

But, with this injury thing expected to linger, will they abandon new ideas and just throw him in to last year's roles.

They've added two more phreaks (Horace Miller and Denmark) who are longshots to hit the 53 man, but could fit on the practice squad ... and Denmark is very similar to Irvin.

Good to see you didn't dump on him, Dog.

But, in one more year, you might be so entitled.

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C
Oh, I haven't dumped on him, not at all. But I'm confused as to where he fits on our defensive scheme. Contrary to what my friend HC says, he's not a run stopper, and pulling him out on 3rd downs negates his long suit. Perhaps a return to the role he played as a rookie might be in order.

[HumanCockroach]

LOL. Provided the stats from PFF before to back that up, numerous times. Not my issue if you choose to ignore them. Irvin ranked third in the NFL amongst all qualifying OLB against the run ( pretty sound IMHO considering there were around a 100 qualifying OLB to be ranked) ninth against the pass ( Smith ranked third). But you know he is poor in that regard. LMAO RD.

Irvin is an OLB/tweener just like numerous players that have been and still do reside on the Seahawks roster. They covet players like that, and have since day one, why that "role" confuses you still is anyone's guess, but it isn't changing, so you might want to start getting used to it. Smith MIGHT start, then again, he might not, winning the SB MVP doesn't in anyway shape or form guarantee any type of future success, starting positions or anything other than a trip to Disney land and a vehicle. Smith will compete with Irvin, nothing has changed. Irvin is better against the run ( Smith ranked I think 28th against the run) Irvin isn't quite as good against the pass ( though still top ten percent in the league) and it remains to be seen which of the two is better at rushing the passer from that position ( mostly because neither was given much of a chance to do so last season combined 37 attempts with small success).

[FolkCrusader]

Well, we know training camp is here. RD's first of 48 posts on Bruce Irvin is in.

Two comments RD. Malcolm Smith is also still out of TC after ankle surgery last spring. Who knows when either will be back. Secondly, perhaps you should rewatch the NFC championship game and see who was spying Kaepernick in the second half that shut down his running game. Irvin had a very nice year as a run defender last year. Malcolm is 25 lbs lighter than Bruce and can cover much more like a Safety. The combination worked out very well for us last year and I really don't see why they would change it unless one or the other is unavailable.

[Seahawks4Ever]

I had really hoped that this would be a break out year for Big Bruce, but it doesn't look to happen. This was the year the Irvin needed play out of his mind to get that big contract we all know he has his heart set on. At least they didn't wait until training camp for him to have his surgery like what happened with Harvin, but we know it is going to take most of the season for Irv. to be really healthy so I guess he will have to have his break out season next year.

HCR; I know you have heard the term lies, damn lies, and statistics. How does a player rate in the top 10 at his position in making tackles when he isn't out there making tackles??? I mean, you have to actually MAKE the tackles, don't you?? I watched every down of every game last year and if Irvin would have been put there making tackles all over the field people including myself would have been really talking the guy up but it didn't happen. Dude lost his starting position and was severely limited on what downs he played in, so how does that square with supposedly being "in the top ten" at his position at making tackles???

Oh, and I know they are not going to trade Irvin because they wouldn't get anything for the former #1 draft choice.

[HumanCockroach]

Nope. You don't have to "make tackles" to play a position correctly. That is like professing a Corner who doesn't break up multiple passes, or get any interceptions "isn't good" all the while ignoring that no one ever throws at him. Playing the run or pass correctly, has ZERO to do with tackles made, or passes defensed. It is a basic principal of football, and few OLB's make a ton of tackles in general. Look it up if you don't believe me. Irvin played his "responsibily" correctly, which is graded positively, just because the running back went somewhere else, doesn't change that responsibility. You want to look at a "bad" defense, look for the least disciplined, and you'll find it. No room at higher levels for "free lance" work from OLB. Pop in some tape of Curry for a prime example of playing the wrong gap, being in the wrong position, and not playing off his keys if you would like to see the opposite of what is supposed to be done.

There's a LOT more I could add, but to sum up, NUMBERS aren't the only way to evaluate a player, never has been, never will be.

[RiverDog]

I had really hoped that this would be a break out year for Big Bruce, but it doesn't look to happen. This was the year the Irvin needed play out of his mind to get that big contract we all know he has his heart set on. At least they didn't wait until training camp for him to have his surgery like what happened with Harvin, but we know it is going to take most of the season for Irv. to be really healthy so I guess he will have to have his break out season next year.

HCR; I know you have heard the term lies, damn lies, and statistics. How does a player rate in the top 10 at his position in making tackles when he isn't out there making tackles??? I mean, you have to actually MAKE the tackles, don't you?? I watched every down of every game last year and if Irvin would have been put there making tackles all over the field people including myself would have been really talking the guy up but it didn't happen. Dude lost his starting position and was severely limited on what downs he played in, so how does that square with supposedly being "in the top ten" at his position at making tackles???

Oh, and I know they are not going to trade Irvin because they wouldn't get anything for the former #1 draft choice.

Yea, that's my point, too. All too often, I see Irvin standing over a pile of players rather than being one of the guys getting up from the bottom. A linebacker's job in a run defense is to fill holes and make tackles, and as much as I try to set my bias aside, I just don't see a lot of that happening out of Irvin, and I don't care how many stats or analysis people throw up in his defense. IMO he just can't get off blocks cleanly.

The other stat that sticks out is Irvin's diminishing snap counts. In the 49'ers game in early December, he had 44, yet against the Niners in the playoffs, it was a mere 23. Both were close games against a very good running team, yet Irvin's snap count was cut in half. If he's such a damn good run stopper, why was his snap count reduced like that? Was it because if his hip? Or has the coaching staff lost confidence in him?

Damn, sorry for ragging on him, but I got goaded a bit.

[obiken]

You and me both. I was never an Irvin fan, and never will be.

[NorthHawk]

If you remember what one of the scouts said about Seattle's philosophy about drafting on Defense when he said in effect they ask the scouts to find players with specific talents or abilities and then they modify the Defense to use those attributes.
I think they really like Irvin's physical gifts, but haven't quite found a way to use them to better the Defense considering it's doing pretty well as it is.

[obiken]

You might be right NH, I just thought he was a bad drill from day one. Bad attitude, Smallish, and way overvalued as a 1st rounder.

[HumanCockroach]

Bad Attitude? Where has that been displayed? Not sure about "smallish" either, but would love the attitude thing explained. Haven't seen him complain about anything publicly.

[HumanCockroach]

Honestly the only thing I've seen on this thread is the same people who were up in arms and didn't like the pick originally, continue professing the same thing they have always professed. They don't like him, and it doesn't matter what he does, they still don't like him, and it doesn't matter what he can do, or will do, they still won't like him. Certain players get that from fans, and no matter what happens from that point forward, they will refuse to accept or like that player.

[RiverDog]

Honestly the only thing I've seen on this thread is the same people who were up in arms and didn't like the pick originally, continue professing the same thing they have always professed. They don't like him, and it doesn't matter what he does, they still don't like him, and it doesn't matter what he can do, or will do, they still won't like him. Certain players get that from fans, and no matter what happens from that point forward, they will refuse to accept or like that player.

Then let's get it back on track. Instead of being so critical of me and Obi, why not return to the questions presented in the OP?

Personally, I do not think his role should be a 1st/2nd down run stopping conventional linebacker. That's not why we drafted him. I was encouraged last season when they announced that he was going to be used in the "spinner" role, darting in and out of gaps, coming from inside out and outside in. What happened? Did they experiment with it in practice and not like what they saw? I certainly didn't see him being used in anything that would resemble a role like that during the games. It seemed like that on most pass plays he was in on, he was dropping back into coverage.

[HumanCockroach]

Honestly the only thing I've seen on this thread is the same people who were up in arms and didn't like the pick originally, continue professing the same thing they have always professed. They don't like him, and it doesn't matter what he does, they still don't like him, and it doesn't matter what he can do, or will do, they still won't like him. Certain players get that from fans, and no matter what happens from that point forward, they will refuse to accept or like that player.

Then let's get it back on track. Instead of being so critical of me and Obi, why not return to the questions presented in the OP?

Personally, I do not think his role should be a 1st/2nd down run stopping conventional linebacker. That's not why we drafted him. I was encouraged last season when they announced that he was going to be used in the "spinner" role, darting in and out of gaps, coming from inside out and outside in. What happened? Did they experiment with it in practice and not like what they saw? I certainly didn't see him being used in anything that would resemble a role like that during the games. It seemed like that on most pass plays he was in on, he was dropping back into coverage.

I already answered the question, as for the "spinner" role I don't remember anyone from the Seahawks saying that, I do remember people on this board saying it, but not Carroll,Quinn, or Norton. So I'm a little confused why it is even being brought up? He is an OLB, who can rush the passer when called upon to do so, is above adequate in coverage, and is good in run defense. He isn't going to be cut, he isn't going to be traded, he isn't moving positions again, and the staff is excited about him. All in all, I'm not sure what exactly was expected in the Seahawks FO/ coaching staff, just know that a lot of "expectations" of FANS haven't been met, though personally, I don't feel any of those expectations are realistic, and weren't at the time. Irvin did damn well, for a player playing at the highest level, at a position he had never played IMHO, and obviously, the staff felt the same, otherwise, he wouldn't have been starting over Smith the entire year.

Whether his role expands or not remains to be seen ( sometimes they simply don't throw everything on young players plates, especially at a new position, or has everyone forgotten even Wilson doesn't have the "whole" offense, even to this day?) So it is possible they increase his role. Even if they don't do so, I would expect a second season playing a position to increase success, and am more than willing to wait and see if the DROTY runner up improves.

Irvin and Smith as well as Wright primarily dropped into coverage, it is after all HOW they run their defense, not one to question the best defense in the NFL system, but have at it.

I wasn't "critical" of either you or Obi, I was simply pointing out that those that had an issue, still have an issue, and I suspect, that regardless, you will always have that same issue. It is after all what some fans do. It isn't being critical to point out the obvious.