Ferguson shooting and riots

[Hawktawk]

I'll try to avoid my usual bombastic approach but this looks like deja vu all over again i.e Trayvon Martin. A young black man gets shot and it becomes a rallying cry for justice, never mind the facts. Actually, other than the media hullabaloo, the interjection into a local matter by the President and DOJ etc there dont seem to be many parallels. Trayvon and Zimmerman were 2 people tragically brought together by a series of false assumptions and bad decisions on a dark rainy night.

This controversy seems to be a case of a very large(nose tackle large) man-child behaving badly to the point that an officer feared for his own life enough to kill him. I do not believe racial prejudice played a role in either tragedy, yet that is how most of an entire race of Americans feel. As Rodney King so famously said when LA erupted."cant we all just get along?
Well I ask that question now....
Thoughts?

[Seahawks4Ever]

I believe the officer not the perp. or the perjuring witness. A person would have to suspend all logic to believe the version of suspect #2 and the witness who says their hands were up and they were trying to surrender.

[Hawktawk]

Reports have surfaced that the officer suffered an orbital blowout of his eyeball after being punched in his vehicle. There are multiple reports there was a struggle for his gun. And yet he could face years in prison with the kangaroo court he is going to face.

[c_hawkbob]

I'm not going to pretend I know anything beyond what gets generally reported but i do have opinions.

On whether the shooting was justified; I cannot imagine a cop unloading a gun into an unarmed, surrendering kid. Especially with witnesses about. But i also cannot imagine cops that put on white hoods and burn crosses at white supremacist rally's, but I know they exist. So far all we are hearing is the scant bit of information released by the PD and a whole lot of bombastic commentary from an understandably distraught family and an inflamed group of protesters. More needs to be revealed before any of us actually know what happened or why. As far as the "reports surfacing" about this or that, it's all hearsay until we see a link to the information so that we can determine the credibility of the source.

On the president and DOJ "interjecting" themselves into the situation; Really? Where? Commentary from the President on a matter like this is proper and expected, and as far as I know it has been local authorities, specifically Gov. Jay Nixon, that have made the decisions, including to invite the National Guard in to the matter. The DOJ and the FBI are conducting their own investigation parallel to the local police investigation, but would that not be the case under any administration? Most of what I hear out of Ferguson is outrage by the black community leaders that the President is not doing more or has not shown sufficient public outrage ... I guess it depends on what side of the aisle you sit on or the color of your skin as to why to be outraged at the President.

On the looting and nightly protests; At this point I think its just a bunch of hooligans using this as an excuse to loot and pillage and generally run wild. Peaceful protest, in daylight hours so we can see who you are, report on it safely and join in if that is our inclination are one thing, and should continue, but the nightly mayhem is bullsh!t. There's no excuse for it for it to drag on like this. The local shop owners did nothing to deserve having their lives and livelihoods torn apart like this! Quit it!

That's basically all I can say on it till more becomes known.

[Hawktawk]

I guess it depends on what side of the aisle you sit on or the color of your skin as to why to be outraged at the President.


I agree with most of what you said Bob. But this comment is what gets under my skin. It irritates me that anyone who is not black and opposes this President is somehow racially motivated. As for blacks being furious with him they should be, their situation has not been worse in this country under any President in quite a while.

I guess I'm still a little sensitive to Obama butting his nose into local issues as I remember his prejudicial comments in the Martin Zimmerman case. "If I had a son he would look like Trayvon". I think his comments on this situation have actually been more measured and balanced.
As for Holder he is a complete hypocrite. Chicago and many other cities are imploding with black on black violence. But they dont want to talk about it. A black person is more likely to be murdered than a white person despite being one fifth as large a population. And it is overwhelmingly likely it will be at the hands of another black. I realize that is the standard response to this administration constantly claiming racism but its still true. I'm not saying this incident doesn't deserve a fair hearing. But when the White Democratic Gov calls for a "vigorous prosecution" when the grand jury is still looking at the actual facts clearly this poor cop is in a world of hurt.
I'm not sure why anyone would want the job anymore. Go risk your life for the community and you are the villain.

[c_hawkbob]

I agree with most of your second paragraph but totally disagree that race relations have gotten worse under Obama. Al of those things you said that have been the case for decades are steadily improving, and have been for my entire lifetime, regardless of who is in office. Even moving from out west to the south in 2010 I can still see that things are much better off in that regard than they were say, while I was in the Navy. It does bother me how easy the N-word slips into normal conversations down here, but even at that it's mostly older people and they'll stop using it if you ask them to.

[Hawktawk]

I agree with most of your second paragraph but totally disagree that race relations have gotten worse under Obama. Al of those things you said that have been the case for decades are steadily improving, and have been for my entire lifetime, regardless of who is in office. Even moving from out west to the south in 2010 I can still see that things are much better off in that regard than they were say, while I was in the Navy. It does bother me how easy the N-word slips into normal conversations down here, but even at that it's mostly older people and they'll stop using it if you ask them to.

I didn't make myself clear when I referenced the status of blacks under this president. I completely agree race relations in general have improved steadily for decades,The guy in the white house is as much proof of that as anything else one could look at. I spent some time in Georgia in 83 and I sure hope its gotten better there because it was very bad at that time.I was referencing more the black crime rate, unemployment rate, wage disparity,deterioration of the family unit, and the hopeless and dangerous living conditions in the black inner city communities. All these things have worsened under our first black president. It was telling a few weeks ago to hear inner city blacks excoriating Obama for welcoming in illegal aliens and handing them money, health care etc while communities like Detroit and Chicago are utter cesspools already. I dont want to make this a rag on Obama rant but when you are at 39%approval rate not too many people of any race are going to be very happy.

[FolkCrusader]

Hawktalk, your entire argument is about as prejudicial as one can make it. Basically you are saying black people in america live like animals. Like they are all broken families, unemployed, running through the street killing one another. The fact is you can not label a person of any color in one way or another. People live their lives some times well and sometimes poorly. The color of your skin does not determine this.

Detroit is not a cesspool, it is an area that has taken a huge brunt of economic failure in this country. There are many many people working very hard to return Detroit to a more livable place. People bring up black on black crime and don't even understand what drives it. I seriously doubt you do. The gun lobby continuously brings it up because those are the people they think they need to shoot to protect themselves.

I'm with Bob in that we really have no facts to go on yet. Part of the initial problem was the unwillingness of the PD to release facts in the first place. The second problem was the general public assuming the facts supported an innocent person. One thing is clear in any investigation, if there is no current threat to an officer they are not justified using lethal force. This is true even if he had been previously assaulted. The facts of this case are not clear yet.

As an aside to Bob, I had a conversation the other day with someone speculating what the parallels to the Bundy Ranch situation are. The situation there attracted all sorts of people some of which were hard core anti-government types that were trying to provoke conflict between the Feds and other activists. I think there could easily be people involved in these riots that are there simply to stir things up and have little interest in the case at all.

[burrrton]

The gun lobby continuously brings it up because those are the people they think they need to shoot to protect themselves.

Do you want to retract this, or clarify what you meant?

I think there could easily be people involved in these riots that are there simply to stir things up and have little interest in the case at all.

I think this has become entirely clear, although it's not *just* the "white/anti-gov" types- it's also people invested in and who benefit from racial unrest.

[RiverDog]

I was referencing more the black crime rate, unemployment rate, wage disparity,deterioration of the family unit, and the hopeless and dangerous living conditions in the black inner city communities. All these things have worsened under our first black president. It was telling a few weeks ago to hear inner city blacks excoriating Obama for welcoming in illegal aliens and handing them money, health care etc while communities like Detroit and Chicago are utter cesspools already. I dont want to make this a rag on Obama rant but when you are at 39%approval rate not too many people of any race are going to be very happy.

IMO the problems of the inner city has more to do with economics and education than it does race. I don't see how you can draw a relationship between the problems of the inner cities and that of the immigration problem. They are completely separate issues that have no bearing on each other.

And as far as Obama's approval rating goes, every President since the end of World War II has experienced a dramatic drop in popularity in their second term, if not at the end of their first term (with the exception of Kennedy, clearly an anomaly), and only after Reagan's second term did the incumbent party win the succeeding Presidential election, so the fact that Obama has a 39% approval rating should come as no surprise to anyone. It would seem that Presidents have a shelf life.

[obiken]

I wonder as an ex-corrections officer why with millions in Swat gear, military hardware, and vehicles, they didnt have a 300 dollar dashboard camera; especially in a predomantly black neighbor hood. It would have been over one way or the other the first day.

[RiverDog]

I wonder as an ex-corrections officer why with millions in Swat gear, military hardware, and vehicles, they didnt have a 300 dollar dashboard camera; especially in a predomantly black neighbor hood. It would have been over one way or the other the first day.

Good point, obi, and I agree 100%. If they can put traffic cameras at every little intersection that has a traffic signal and mail us tickets if we run a red light, they damn sure can afford them in police cruisers as well. It would protect the good cop from false accusations and make the bad cop think twice before acting like an A-hole.

It just so happens that not only are they talking about dashboard cameras, they're talking it a step further and asking that cameras actually being mounted on the cop themselves, which I think is an excellent idea.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /14336311/

[Hawktawk]

I wonder as an ex-corrections officer why with millions in Swat gear, military hardware, and vehicles, they didnt have a 300 dollar dashboard camera; especially in a predomantly black neighbor hood. It would have been over one way or the other the first day.

Good point, obi, and I agree 100%. If they can put traffic cameras at every little intersection that has a traffic signal and mail us tickets if we run a red light, they damn sure can afford them in police cruisers as well. It would protect the good cop from false accusations and make the bad cop think twice before acting like an A-hole.

It just so happens that not only are they talking about dashboard cameras, they're talking it a step further and asking that cameras actually being mounted on the cop themselves, which I think is an excellent idea.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /14336311/

FYI dash and body cameras had been ordered by the police chief but had not been installed yet, very unfortunate.

On a related note the President sent a 3 member delegation to attend the memorial service. To put it in context there was less representation by this administration at Margaret Thatchers funeral, and none whatsoever for the US General who was killed by an infiltrator in Afghanistan, the highest ranking US officer to be KIA since Vietnam.
In the same time frame a black police officer in Salt Lake shot an unarmed white kid in front of a mini mart. The media and police list the officers race as "not white"The kid had a prior record which the police disclosed to the public. There appeared to be little or no justification for this shooting but it just isn't getting covered.This cop had a body cam so we will (maybe) eventually get to the truth of that one.

Whatever else can be said for the tragedy in Ferguson one thing is certain and already playing out. The administration and liberal media are trolling for midterm votes over the body of a dead young black man. In that sense it is an absolute rerun of the Trayvon Martin case. Disgusting. They are the ones with the most blood on their hands.

[Hawktawk]

I was referencing more the black crime rate, unemployment rate, wage disparity,deterioration of the family unit, and the hopeless and dangerous living conditions in the black inner city communities. All these things have worsened under our first black president. It was telling a few weeks ago to hear inner city blacks excoriating Obama for welcoming in illegal aliens and handing them money, health care etc while communities like Detroit and Chicago are utter cesspools already. I dont want to make this a rag on Obama rant but when you are at 39%approval rate not too many people of any race are going to be very happy.

IMO the problems of the inner city has more to do with economics and education than it does race. I don't see how you can draw a relationship between the problems of the inner cities and that of the immigration problem. They are completely separate issues that have no bearing on each other.

And as far as Obama's approval rating goes, every President since the end of World War II has experienced a dramatic drop in popularity in their second term, if not at the end of their first term (with the exception of Kennedy, clearly an anomaly), and only after Reagan's second term did the incumbent party win the succeeding Presidential election, so the fact that Obama has a 39% approval rating should come as no surprise to anyone. It would seem that Presidents have a shelf life.

I dont buy this education and economics excuse. It isn't economics. It isn't that we dont spend enough on our schools. Most everyone of every race was dirt poor during the depression and we didn't have this type of violence. MOF I dont remember this level of black on black violence growing up in the 60s and 70.My dad had no formal education whatsoever, immigrated from Sweden following WWII. He learned English and worked his ass off, becoming a highly respected construction project manager.He died last summer at age 90, having never stuck his hand out for one handout from the taxpayers.

Its education related alright. Its learned behavior to hate cops, make babies and abandon them,abuse women, join gangs and shoot people. Its the whole hip hop gangsta rap thing.And while blowhards like Sharpton rail against whitey they are in bed with these rap artists, making money off the association. I know its never that simple but then again it is. People like Richard Sherman prove you dont have to live like that no matter where you are raised. I'm sick of hearing excuses for evil morally bankrupt behavior no matter what the ethnic origin of the perpetrator.

I brought up the immigration angle because it was brought up by enraged BLACK residents in Detroit and Chicago who couldn't understand why illegal immigrants were being treated with more concern that the black inner city neighborhoods that are already in decay. It was THEIR complaint that tied the two issues together. But if you dont watch alternative media you would not know it, It sure wasn't on CNN or NBC.

[RiverDog]

I was referencing more the black crime rate, unemployment rate, wage disparity,deterioration of the family unit, and the hopeless and dangerous living conditions in the black inner city communities. All these things have worsened under our first black president. It was telling a few weeks ago to hear inner city blacks excoriating Obama for welcoming in illegal aliens and handing them money, health care etc while communities like Detroit and Chicago are utter cesspools already. I dont want to make this a rag on Obama rant but when you are at 39%approval rate not too many people of any race are going to be very happy.

IMO the problems of the inner city has more to do with economics and education than it does race. I don't see how you can draw a relationship between the problems of the inner cities and that of the immigration problem. They are completely separate issues that have no bearing on each other.

And as far as Obama's approval rating goes, every President since the end of World War II has experienced a dramatic drop in popularity in their second term, if not at the end of their first term (with the exception of Kennedy, clearly an anomaly), and only after Reagan's second term did the incumbent party win the succeeding Presidential election, so the fact that Obama has a 39% approval rating should come as no surprise to anyone. It would seem that Presidents have a shelf life.

I dont buy this education and economics excuse. It isn't economics. It isn't that we dont spend enough on our schools. Most everyone of every race was dirt poor during the depression and we didn't have this type of violence. MOF I dont remember this level of black on black violence growing up in the 60s and 70.My dad had no formal education whatsoever, immigrated from Sweden following WWII. He learned English and worked his ass off, becoming a highly respected construction project manager.He died last summer at age 90, having never stuck his hand out for one handout from the taxpayers.

Its education related alright. Its learned behavior to hate cops, make babies and abandon them,abuse women, join gangs and shoot people. Its the whole hip hop gangsta rap thing.And while blowhards like Sharpton rail against whitey they are in bed with these rap artists, making money off the association. I know its never that simple but then again it is. People like Richard Sherman prove you dont have to live like that no matter where you are raised. I'm sick of hearing excuses for evil morally bankrupt behavior no matter what the ethnic origin of the perpetrator.

I brought up the immigration angle because it was brought up by enraged BLACK residents in Detroit and Chicago who couldn't understand why illegal immigrants were being treated with more concern that the black inner city neighborhoods that are already in decay. It was THEIR complaint that tied the two issues together. But if you dont watch alternative media you would not know it, It sure wasn't on CNN or NBC.

I never said anything about not spending enough on education or job creation. I am simply noting that the problem has more to do with education and economics than it does race.

One of the reasons you don't remember black-on-black violence from back in the 60's and 70's is because we had much less news coverage back then, with no CNN, no internet, no instant communications, not even talk radio. What we got was an evening or morning newspaper and 30 minutes of network newscast. Believe me you, child abuse, neglect, truancy, and all sorts of other social problems were just as present in the 60's and 70's as they are today, it's just that our memories were ingrained with the thought that Leave It To Beaver and The Brady Bunch represented typical American households.

[washeska]

LOL...
Well,
this thread is funny. If anyone that is non-Russian or non-white did something stupid even close to the militsiya, they would be shot.
And that's it.

Be grateful for what you got and quick your bitching.

Wash

[Seahawks4Ever]

How was a "lack of education" the cause of a crowd of black teenagers attacking and beating up white Walmart employees and customers. Oh, and you only know those teenagers are black because I told you so because the MSM media won't tell you that part. Where is the OUTRAGE??????

[Hawktawk]

How was a "lack of education" the cause of a crowd of black teenagers attacking and beating up white Walmart employees and customers. Oh, and you only know those teenagers are black because I told you so because the MSM media won't tell you that part. Where is the OUTRAGE??????

Yeah or how about the WWII vet who was beaten to death outside a tavern in Spokane a year ago by 2 black teenage thugs? He was 88 years old.They laughed during their mug shots and later blamed the victim and claimed he was selling crack.

Or how about the folks who set up a shrine for the piece of human excrement from Chicago who was killed in a shootout after gunning down a cop in cold blood. They displayed posters stating that he should have taken more cops with him.

But what? No riots or looting big screens? We can play the game forever, it happens all the time. It would be a laughable argument if it weren't so sad.Whites are far more likely to be assaulted or killed by a black person than the other way around. But for some reason black leaders generally praise the lawbreaker, blame the cops or the victim and continue the endless drumbeat of blaming racism for the despicable behavior of the perpetrators. The African American community will never reach their potential until they change this us vs them mentality and quit brainwashing the younger generations with it.

[RiverDog]

Yeah or how about the WWII vet who was beaten to death outside a tavern in Spokane a year ago by 2 black teenage thugs? He was 88 years old.They laughed during their mug shots and later blamed the victim and claimed he was selling crack.

Or how about the folks who set up a shrine for the piece of human excrement from Chicago who was killed in a shootout after gunning down a cop in cold blood. They displayed posters stating that he should have taken more cops with him.

But what? No riots or looting big screens? We can play the game forever, it happens all the time. It would be a laughable argument if it weren't so sad.Whites are far more likely to be assaulted or killed by a black person than the other way around. But for some reason black leaders generally praise the lawbreaker, blame the cops or the victim and continue the endless drumbeat of blaming racism for the despicable behavior of the perpetrators. The African American community will never reach their potential until they change this us vs them mentality and quit brainwashing the younger generations with it.

Racial violence has been going on for a long time. Only in the last couple of decades have blacks become the most likely aggressor in a black/white confrontation. For centuries, and until quite recently, it was the other way around. That's not an excuse, but if you're looking for a root cause, you need to go back more than a couple of years to find it.

Perhaps if whites were to tone down the black vs. white differences and speak out equally about all violence rather than constantly looking for racial differences between assailant and victim and continually opening century old wounds, the situation may improve.

[burrrton]

Perhaps if whites were to tone down the black vs. white differences and speak out equally about all violence rather than constantly looking for racial differences between assailant and victim and continually opening century old wounds, the situation may improve.

No disagreement with that on its face, and I hate viewing people as part of some 'tribe' based on skin color, but since we're doing that here, who do you believe holds the more glaring double standard for pointing out and exploiting racial differences in violent encounters?

[Hawktawk]

I find points to agree with both RD and Burrton.
RD I'm well versed on the racism that blacks endured in this country for centuries. I know all about despicable organizations like Arian Nations and KKK who killed and would still try to kill blacks.And on the rare occasions Ive encountered their ilk I went nose to nose with them telling them how stupid and evil they were.

But by and large our country hasn't been a racist nation for decades. SO GET OVER IT!!You live in a land of great opportunity. Seize the day and make your own destiny!

The negative stereotypes portrayed by blacks now are their own fault due to their lawless and immoral behavior and they keep spreading the cancer to successive generations. This assures more Micheal Browns will be in the news and liberal race hustlers will try to win elections over their dead bodies. And that is where I agree with Burrton. America at large is relatively colorblind and tolerant, but one ethnicity wants to keep living in the past for whatever reason.

[RiverDog]

But by and large our country hasn't been a racist nation for decades. SO GET OVER IT!!You live in a land of great opportunity. Seize the day and make your own destiny!

The negative stereotypes portrayed by blacks now are their own fault due to their lawless and immoral behavior and they keep spreading the cancer to successive generations. This assures more Micheal Browns will be in the news and liberal race hustlers will try to win elections over their dead bodies. And that is where I agree with Burrton. America at large is relatively colorblind and tolerant, but one ethnicity wants to keep living in the past for whatever reason.

Institutional racism hasn't been present in our society for decades. But other forms of racism do exist, and I have been personal witness to many of them, one as recent as last week. These forms of racism keeps the issue alive for those minorities that are subject to them.

I agree wholeheartedly that the self appointed spokespeople for the black community, in general, have not been active enough in getting their own house in order, so to speak. There are some blacks out there, like Stephen Smith, that have taken very laudable stands that emphasize self reliance and acceptance of responsibility, but it seems to me to be too few and too far between. But that wasn't the point I was speaking to.

My point is that there are reasons, decades long, or rather centuries long, reasons why some blacks, a small minority of blacks, still hate whites enough to single them out for violence. It is my opinion that us as white people, if we understand those reasons, we might be able to make our own very small contribution to solving the problem. My suggestion is not to worry so much about black-on-white violence except as it pertains to violence in general. You can highlight the crime rate of blacks vs. that of whites or other minorities, cite the drop out rate, et al, as it's an undeniable, objective fact that forces the black community to recognize that there's a problem unique to them and challenges them to produce a solution, but it's quite a bit harder to figure out if a black-on-white crime was committed due to racial hatred or if it is just another violent crime.

[RiverDog]

No disagreement with that on its face, and I hate viewing people as part of some 'tribe' based on skin color, but since we're doing that here, who do you believe holds the more glaring double standard for pointing out and exploiting racial differences in violent encounters?

As it pertains to this thread, whites.

[burrrton]

As it pertains to this thread, whites.

No offense, but I think you're either not answering honestly or not paying attention that closely, then.

After "the police acted stupidly", Trayvon Martin, Ferguson, and on and on and on, that's simply not a defensible position.

[RiverDog]

No offense, but I think you're either not answering honestly or not paying attention that closely, then.

After "the police acted stupidly", Trayvon Martin, Ferguson, and on and on and on, that's simply not a defensible position.

OK, sorry, I was being sarcastic.

To answer your question, and as I implied in my last post, blacks, or at least the self appointed spokesmen for the black community, hold the more glaring double standard for pointing out and exploiting racial differences in violent encounters..although I wouldn't necessarily limit my response to violent encounters.

[burrrton]

OK, sorry, I was being sarcastic.

Oh geez- sorry if I missed that.

To answer your question, and as I implied in my last post, blacks, or at least the self appointed spokesmen for the black community, hold the more glaring double standard for pointing out and exploiting racial differences in violent encounters..although I wouldn't necessarily limit my response to violent encounters.

Yeah, agreed.

[kalibane]

Here's the thing... What do you define at institutional racism? (By the way River, to avoid misunderstanding I am not directing my post at you or even trying to infer that you have anything to do with the rest of my post, you are just the one who brought up the concept of institutional racism which is what I want to touch on).

If you mean the government actively instituting policy or enforcing policy to purposely discriminate against a particular race. Then yes I supposed institutional racism is gone.

My definition is racism (often unconscious) that prevents or impedes a particular race to acquire basic life needs by virtue of the way society works/behaves. And by that definition institutional racism is alive and well. To wit:

When you compare blacks and whites in the Criminal Justice system. Taking two offenders convicted of the exact same crime with an equivalent criminal background black offenders receive sentences that are on average 20% longer than their white counterparts. Black juvenile offenders are much more likely to be tried as adults for the same crimes as their white juvenile counter parts. In Murder convictions the death penalty is given out more frequently when the victim is white vs when the victim is black and the percentage widens when it's a black offender/white victim vs. white offender/black victim.

Employment. Countless studies have shown that when candidates with the same qualifications and for all intents and purposes the same resume apply for a job, one with a name associated with African Americans (nothing ridiculous like Jedeveon, but common names you can find on a license plate at Disney Land like Keisha or Tyrone) and one with a name associated as neutral or Caucasion, the applicants with an ethnic neutral/caucasion associated name were far liklier to be called for an interview. This holds true even when the "black" candidate is slightly more qualified than the "white" candidate. (This also debunks the notion that underqualified black people are taking jobs in waves from more qualified white people due to Affirmative Action, it may happen from time to time but it is not nearly the epidemic that many people claim).

Housing. There have been multiple studies similar to the Resume phenomena regarding rental applications. There was one massive study done recently where applications were filled out online all names used were ethnic/gender neutral. Incomes were the same. The family size were the same. Their supposed jobs were all similarlly regarded white collar jobs. Then they set up appointments with the landlord to see the apartment, one white man, one white woman, one black man, one black woman. They all dressed in similar clothing when they met with the land loard (khaki's, loafers, collard shirt/blouse). Women wore ponytails. Men all had close cropped hair. When the black applicants showed up they were often told the apartment was no longer available (especially black men), when they were quoted rent it was higher (black men highest, black women slightly lower on average). When the white applicants showed up the apartment was never unavailable (these were the same exact apartments btw), and the white people were quoted lower rent (white men the lowest). In some cases the white men were even offered incentives without asking for them.

Education: Black children are diagnosed far quicker and in greater percentages with disorders like ADHD, Autism or other emotional disorders even though there is no racial correlation. And are shunted into special ed programs in a similar way.

While many of these things may be unconcious, but at the end of the day it's still materially effects a person's lifestyle and opportunities based on race at an institutional level.

This doesn't even take into account the every day hassles that are nearly impossible to track such as the indignity of being stopped on the street or approached in a public space and asked to produce ID with no cause for suspicion of a crime. Something which by the way does not fall within the scope of police power in most jurisdictions.

Many people including some in this thread pretend that black people who talk about this stuff are just imagining it or these are just isolated incidents and they aren't. They are very common to the black "experience".

So while I'm not going to get into the specifics of the Ferguson incident and subsequent riots. What people need to understand is that whether Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton pull the race card every other day (which they do) and need to go away (which they do), and whether people are interpreting the incident correctly, when black people see what they feel is a concrete example of the extended indigities that they are on the receiving end on from law enforcement and then nothing happens and people insist that every time something like this happens (the Fruitvale Station incident comes to mind) that the actions of the Police are completely justifiable. That's where the frustration comes from.

[burrrton]

A few thoughts:

1. It's terribly difficult to come up with *identical* resumes, *identical* crimes, *identical* backgrounds, *identical* attitudes, and so on when you're trying to come up with definitive examples of racist administrators, racist employers, racist judges, etc.

2. Most people drawing sweeping conclusions from 'studies' (and sometimes the studies themselves) confuse correlation with causation.

3. When the most prominent, celebrated windows into a "culture" are focused so overwhelmingly on violence, drugs, misogyny, and so on, is it really so surprising that others might act accordingly? IOW, might any actual differences in outcomes be due to differences in the culture groups embrace?

[kalibane]

Identical crimes is not difficult at all. There are lots of crimes comitted in this country. These are VAST studies with a sample size only limited by the number of convictions and the idea that there were enough crimes comitted by black offenders that had some kind of extenuating circumstance specifically related to that particular crime often enough to account for a 20% difference in sentencing would be greater odds than hitting powerball. There is a margin for error built in to account for the extenuating circumstances you talk about and it's no where close to 20%.

Controlling for similar resumes is easy. You just switch the names on the resumes when they are sent do a different company. Again the odds that some random factor just coincidentally reflected such a strong correllation over and over and over again is just being intellectually disingenuous. In particular the resume experiment has been done countless times by all kinds of institutions it's not some isolated study done by a special interest. And yet you would think that it's a reasonable assertion that by pure coincidence outside factors always lead to the "black" names getting fewer interviews? That's insane.

As far as point number 3. It's both insulting and irrelevant. I can only assume you are talking about rap. If you see a clean shaven black man, with close cropped hair in a suit, or khakis and a button down shirt and you think it's justifiable to in some way (however small) equate that person with a guy who has tattoo sleaves, dreads, gold teeth and pants 3 sizes to big that are completely hanging off their ass who you saw on TV is in any way reasonble then you have a problem.

This is exactly the kind of dismissivness and rationalization that I'm talking about. You can argue correllation and causation until the cows come home. And no the two are not being cofused. However when the correlation is as strong and consistant as the things I'm talking about above it only speaks to someone with an agenda to dismiss it out of hand because of the inherent flaws that are present in all experiments.

If we as a society treated sociological and psychological studies the way you are treating the ones I have cited we wouldn't have any treatment for psychological disorders because diagnosis and treatment are based almost entirely on correlational studies.

[burrrton]

This is exactly the kind of dismissivness and rationalization that I'm talking about.

I'm just saying if you embrace counter-productive behaviors, or worse glorify them, don't act so surprised when people assume the worst. A little personal responsibility goes a long, long way, and you acting like that's something that shouldn't be taken into account by anyone is a textbook example of soft bigotry.

However when the correlation is as strong and consistant as the things I'm talking about above it only speaks to someone with an agenda to dismiss it out of hand because of the inherent flaws that are present in all experiments.

You can shove your "agenda" accusation where the sun doesn't shine- I've done a lot of reading on the subject, too, and if you want to dismiss the inherent flaws and biases in this kind of research out of hand, to say *nothing* of dismissing the overwhelming effect out-of-wedlock birth, single-mother families, drug use, illiteracy, and such have on stats like these, that could just as easily be said to speak to an "agenda" on your part, too.

I'm not going to go back and forth on this because I think there *is* a lot of validity in what you say- I'm just pointing out that portraying societal factors as the slam-dunk "riot-worthy" pressure you do borders on nonsense.

If we as a society treated sociological and psychological studies the way you are treating the ones I have cited we wouldn't have any treatment for psychological disorders because diagnosis and treatment are based almost entirely on correlational studies.

You know as well as I do that merely demonstrating correlation is appropriate in *many* circumstances, not so in others. You don't have to be dishonest- you make a lot of valid points.

[edit]

And to be clear, I referred mostly to people making sweeping assumptions based on these studies as the bigger problem. In other words, the study may have been appropriately designed to look merely for correlation, and the issue (in my opinion) is when people interpret that correlation as proof of causation.

[kalibane]

I'm not beind dishonest whatsoever. There is a particularly strong correlation in the things that I've cited and no evidence for another explanation. Just the idea that there might be. These studies have been challenged, tested and retested many many times and still all the evidence points in one direction.

I don't object to someone coming and offering an alternate explanation but none has been offered. I object to dismissing the findings purely based on the flaws inherent in every single correllational study that has ever existed. Unless you reject all those studies on that same criteria there is no reason to reject these. We've all argued far weaker correlations regarding football on the other board.

Now as far as rap. That's a sore point with me.

1. There is no universal black culture. Doesn't exist, never has existed. The culture of Lil' Wayne is not the culture of Wayne Brady which is not the Culture of Russell Wilson. The some random black guy can no more police the content of Lil' Wayne's rap music than you can police the content of Marilyn Manson. The idea that a guy who grew up in Portland or Chicago or Seattle or New York in completely different financial and familial circumstances could be personally responsible for some guy who grew up in the projects of New Orleans just because they are similar in skin tone and the grade of their hair is completely unrealistic.

2. The black community does not drive rap music anymore and hasn't for a long long time. Prior to 1988 rap really was a black driven sub genre of music. It was niche and the vast majority was positive (or at least neutral). Then NWA self released Straight Outta Compton. It took the country by storm and crossed over like no rap album ever had before despite not being able to get any radio play due to content. When I say "crossed over" that means it stopped being a niche product that almost only black people buy. It became a multi-platinum album based on sales to the white youth. And the white youth market has pretty much driven rap music sales ever since. Because that album was such a success record execs actively looked for groups in the mold of NWA and thus gangster rap started taking over. Again fueled by sales to the white youth. Other types of acts were cast aside. And everything built on itself. It's no different than how they churn out cookie cutter boy bands and pop "divas" in the Brittney Spears mold.

Ever hear of the Roots (Jimmy Fallon's house band)? In rap circles they are almost universally considered one of the top 5 or so rap groups in history. They are positive. They play their own instruments. So on and so forth. They have put out 14 albums. Only two of them have gone gold. Why? They never crossed over. (translation: white people don't buy them en masse) They had a name and support up and down the East Coast which is (or at least was) the Mecca for rap music but they couldn't get a record deal because their type of music wouldn't sell according to execs. They eventually went to Europe built a name for themselves came back a couple years later and finally got a deal but still have not sold as many total records over 14 albums as NWA sold of Straight Outta Compton alone. THAT is why the only rap you hear is violent and misogynistic. Not because the black community as a whole celebrates violence and misogyny. As always it comes back to the almighty dollar. You want to make a rap album? That's the type of music you make if you want to get paid for it.

[burrrton]

Now as far as rap. That's a sore point with me.

Then take it up with Jay-Z, not me.

The some random black guy can no more police the content of Lil' Wayne's rap music than you can police the content of Marilyn Manson.

Agreed, but if I dress like an androgynous Goth circus freak, I'm not going to be surprised if someone assumes, based on no other information, I embrace the guy's (?) lifestyle.

Ever hear of the Roots (Jimmy Fallon's house band)? In rap circles they are almost universally considered one of the top 5 or so rap groups in history.

Never heard of them, but if this is them, I love 'em (seriously- love the sense of humor and ability to make anything sound good):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17QQcK4l6Yw

[kalibane]

Mmmm well I don't know about Jay-Z. His earlier music had some violence and little bit of sexual content but he was rapping about his life growing up in the projects. I'd say his music is more about excess, how much money he has, etc., which might be negative or less than classy depending on your personal moral code I suppose but in a lot of ways America is all about excess. W

That's not what I meant though. I meant rap music being a sore point when people try to use it to foist a blanket accussation on the black community or to blame them for being discriminated against. It simply doesn't wash with me.

And I'm not talking about guys walking down the street looking like they are in a rap video with their pants hanging off their ass, with corn rows and tats all over their body. I think they look as ridiculous as you do. My beef is with people who like I said, see a black guy in casual business attire and still draw the parallel to the images in rap videos. There is no justifiable cause for that other than latent prejudice (or blatent prejudice as the case may be).

And yes that link is The Roots... they ARE awesome and that kind of illustrates my point that you never heard of them. They are on the Tonight Show every night but you don't know who they are. You know who Jay-Z is though... because he sells millions of records. The ironic thing is Jay-Z is one of the most well dressed musicians not in just rap, but across any genre of music. He doesn't portray the image we've been talking about (and never really has) even if you take issue with the content of his music.

[Hawktawk]

Wow my little thread is hanging in there!
We have a mixed race president who is perceived to be black. Yet it was sort of a reason to vote for him for many of his supporters, particularly the fact he was reelected after a pretty poor track record his first term. He has a black attorney general. We have had black Secretaries of defense, department of homeland security, cops, judges, mayors, governors, supreme court justices and so on. Are there vestiges of prejudice? Yeah I suppose but its a more level playing field all the time.

I return to my belief that some blacks fortify negative perceptions of themselves by their actions which leads to inevitable overreactions by employers, law enforcement, landlords etc.

I certainly feel a lot different about a well dressed clean cut black man than the guy Kalibane described sagging, tatted up, and cornrowed like Medusa. Does that make me racist? Naw I dont like white trash with no teeth and nose rings either....

[RiverDog]

Here's the thing... What do you define at institutional racism? (By the way River, to avoid misunderstanding I am not directing my post at you or even trying to infer that you have anything to do with the rest of my post, you are just the one who brought up the concept of institutional racism which is what I want to touch on).

If you mean the government actively instituting policy or enforcing policy to purposely discriminate against a particular race. Then yes I supposed institutional racism is gone.

I meant on paper in schools, in government, in businesses, the military, and other large institutions. In law and in established policy, we've completely eliminated racial discrimination, have so for a number of decades, to the point where reverse discrimination has become a legitimate issue. What happens in practice may be quite a bit different, but our laws and policies are pretty clear.

[kalibane]

That's what I figured. Can't disagree with the on paper aspect.

[RiverDog]

There is no universal black culture. Doesn't exist, never has existed. The culture of Lil' Wayne is not the culture of Wayne Brady which is not the Culture of Russell Wilson. The some random black guy can no more police the content of Lil' Wayne's rap music than you can police the content of Marilyn Manson. The idea that a guy who grew up in Portland or Chicago or Seattle or New York in completely different financial and familial circumstances could be personally responsible for some guy who grew up in the projects of New Orleans just because they are similar in skin tone and the grade of their hair is completely unrealistic.

That is true. Same goes for Hispanics and Asians. There isn't a one size fits all.

I've always phrased my comments in the form of the "self appointed black spokesmen" or some sort of language that would indicate that they do not necessarily speak for the majority or even a large minority.

[burrrton]

That is true. Same goes for Hispanics and Asians.

And "whites".

[RiverDog]

And "whites".

True, but I don't think whites suffer from the same pigeon holing that minorities do.

[burrrton]

True, but I don't think whites suffer from the same pigeon holing that minorities do.

Is it not "pigeon holing" to assume someone is racist simply because they're "white" and had a violent encounter with a minority (to pick but one easy example off the front page)?

I think I could come up with endless examples of "pigeon holing" of whites.

I see assumptions made *all the time* about how "whites" are some monolithic block that reacts as one entity, that benefits from society's advantages equally based on skin color, and reacts to all situations altogether differently than "minority" groups do (all of which are complete nonsense).

I think there *are* certain benefits to being outwardly similar to the majority of people in your neighborhood/city/country, but those benefits (and the disadvantages of not having them) are so grotesquely overstated it's become absurd.

Too many would consider "White Like Me" a documentary these days (and not see it for the clever lampoon it is):

https://screen.yahoo.com/white-000000112.html