Niner Implosion Imminent?

[RiverDog]

Is something brewing down in the bay area?

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... m-harbaugh

Sort makes today's game against the Eagles even more important. Winning cures a lot of evils, losing brings out the worst in people.

[jshawaii22]

Well now, losing does that to you, but to be honest, it sounds more like the players are being childish, not the coach. Although it seems the Pete Carroll way is becoming more prominent, old school (no music, no fun, no phones) is still the way of many teams.

js

[Hawktawk]

Harbaugh is a whining B#+ch. Who would want to play for him anyway?

[Zorn76]

IMO, this is really petty stuff being reported by Rapoport.

The much bigger deal concerning Harbaugh's future is going to be his relationship with Trent Balke, SF's GM.

As it is, the 49ers completely dominated an alleged high octane Eagles's offense, even with 3 significant starters missing (Bowman, Smith, & their CB Brock).

That entire team battled hard today (ST's the exception, lol), with no hint of quitting on a coach who won't let them play cards or listen to music on the team plane. When it comes to news/rumor/speculation like this, I pretty much only trust Adam S. or Chris M. At least they have some credibility historically.

[RiverDog]

IMO, this is really petty stuff being reported by Rapoport.

The much bigger deal concerning Harbaugh's future is going to be his relationship with Trent Balke, SF's GM.

As it is, the 49ers completely dominated an alleged high octane Eagles's offense, even with 3 significant starters missing (Bowman, Smith, & their CB Brock).

That entire team battled hard today (ST's the exception, lol), with no hint of quitting on a coach who won't let them play cards or listen to music on the team plane. When it comes to news/rumor/speculation like this, I pretty much only trust Adam S. or Chris M. At least they have some credibility historically.

Not sure why Philly gave up on running the ball. They only attempted 12 rushing plays the whole game, not even 25% of their total plays, a pretty low percentage in a close game featuring one of the league's top rushing offenses. I imagine that McCoy being hurt had something to do with it, but they've been talking about giving him fewer touches anyway.

It was a huge win for the Niners, both in the standings as well as psychologically. And as someone in another thread stated, it was a win/win for us as Philly was undefeated coming in.

IMO one way or another, Harbaugh is out next season. Here's another rumor that the Dolphins are eyeballing him.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/9/28/6 ... isco-49ers

Perhaps Krapperdick knew something when he so proudly posed with that Dolphins paraphernalia a couple summers ago.

[monkey]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000401569/article/niners-veterans-still-grumbling-about-jim-harbaugh



No matter how you slice it, the Niners just don't look good right now, they're a mess of a team being held together only by inspirational speeches (by Gore) and a still sturdy defense.

I'll say this, they have one of the most boneheaded decision makers I have ever seen playing QB, and his confidence keeps taking shots week after week of continuing bad play.
Kaepernick (no matter how many hours of film study Jaworski has done) is one of the NFL's WORST QB's right now.

[Long Time Fan]

Kaepernick (no matter how many hours of film study Jaworski has done) is one of the NFL's WORST QB's right now.

Watching yesterday's game, even Harbaugh thinks his qb isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Harbaugh looked furious with each ill timed timeout and each delay of game penalty. Kaepernick is no game manager.

[kalibane]

I still think we might be overstating Kaepernick's level of play. He's been bad with turnovers but I still see a lot of improvement in him as well. I wouldn't characterize him as one of the worst QBs in the league by any stretch. I can rattle off 15 guys I'd prefer Kaep over for right now with no problem.

[mykc14]

I still think we might be overstating Kaepernick's level of play. He's been bad with turnovers but I still see a lot of improvement in him as well. I wouldn't characterize him as one of the worst QBs in the league by any stretch. I can rattle off 15 guys I'd prefer Kaep over for right now with no problem.

I have heard people talking about this supposed improvement in his play, but I don't see it. It seems pretty obvious that the niners came into the season thinking they were going to be able to throw the ball more, but that didn't really work out well the first 3 games. I still see him starring down his receivers and leaving the pocket after his first or second read. He still seems to have trouble reading the D pre-snap. On most passing plays he still only is asked to read half the field. He still takes way too many delay of game penalties and wasted timouts. His numbers this season aren't terrible: around a 90 qb rating with a 65% completion percentage and 6 td to 4 ints, but they aren't vastly improved from his previous years either. Alex Smith's numbers were better than that before he left. He is still the same qb he has been the last 2 years but they have more weapons. He has shown he needs the run game to be an effective passer. I agree he isn't one of the worst qb's in the league, probably closer to 15-20 range, and certainly not HOF caliber like Jaws claimed.

[HumanCockroach]

I certainly don't feel he is "one of the worst" but he certainly isn't what certain people claim him to be, no matter how much they enjoy the smell of his jock. Kaepernick is a slightly above average starter, with tons of potential, but as I've said before potential and a dollar will get you something off the value menu, and not much else.

The thought that he was going to throw the ball all over the field coming into the season was ridiculous and not based in much else but fantasy. He proved it in the preseason and continues to assert that as a fact.

[Hawktawk]

Kap has scary athleticism which makes him top 15. But he is stupid as a fencepost and you cant fix that. 9ers receivers made several circus catches bailing him out or he would have lost at home despite a stifling defense and dominant running game. Kap can not and will never be able to consistently win with his arm and particularly his mind. It will always be feast or famine with him.

[kalibane]

He definitely is still a work in progress as far as his progressions but I haven't seen what you're seeing. He used to be one read Charlie then he would immediately look to get out of the pocket. This season I've seen him go through 3-4 reads multiple times and slide around the pocket before bolting. Not consitantly but it's definitely a move in the right direction. And at the end of the day he's throwing 30 times per game and completing over 65% of his attempts.

Those are tangible improvements in my book. I also don't think he's dumb. I don't really care for his personality in certain situations but he is not a bad QB. His offensive line play has been terrible except for Joe Staley also. We should all recognize how that affects QB play.

His turnover rate is up so far and that's concerning, but I agree with HC. He's above average and I'm not going to let the rivalry color my opinion of him. You can talk about Alex Smith all you want but Alex Smith doesn't take very many shots down the field or throw outside the numbers very often. Bring on Alex Smith so we don't have to really cover anyone except Vernon Davis or use a QB spy. My issue in the debate about him has never been that he's bad... just that he's not in the discussion with Wilson and Luck.

[mykc14]

He definitely is still a work in progress as far as his progressions but I haven't seen what you're seeing. He used to be one read Charlie then he would immediately look to get out of the pocket. This season I've seen him go through 3-4 reads multiple times and slide around the pocket before bolting. Not consitantly but it's definitely a move in the right direction. And at the end of the day he's throwing 30 times per game and completing over 65% of his attempts.

Those are tangible improvements in my book. I also don't think he's dumb. I don't really care for his personality in certain situations but he is not a bad QB. His offensive line play has been terrible except for Joe Staley also. We should all recognize how that affects QB play.

His turnover rate is up so far and that's concerning, but I agree with HC. He's above average and I'm not going to let the rivalry color my opinion of him. You can talk about Alex Smith all you want but Alex Smith doesn't take very many shots down the field or throw outside the numbers very often. Bring on Alex Smith so we don't have to really cover anyone except Vernon Davis or use a QB spy. My issue in the debate about him has never been that he's bad... just that he's not in the discussion with Wilson and Luck.

It sounds like you and I have almost the same overall opinion of him, but disagree with his progress as a player. I agree his O line this year has been terrible in pass blocking and that obviously affects his numbers, but overall he seems to be a similar player. Although his completion % is up this year his YPA are down and his INT to TD ratio is way up. Also, he has been scrambling at a higher rate this year. This could be due to the poor Oline pass blocking or his lack of moving through his progressions/ability to read the D pre-snap. Its probably a combination of both. Furthermore his Quarterback Rating is basically the same as previous years (actually down slightly) but more importantly, IMO, his QBR is way down this year so far; from a 77 (good) to a 58 (about average) despite his improved playmakers on offense (addition of Stevie Johnson, Crabtree back healthy, and another year with Boldin). I know these numbers don't tell the whole story and you are describing what you are actually seeing when you watch him, not necessarily the result but I am also describing what I feel I have seen. I also feel like he is starting to get a little rattled in the pocket, he seems to be taking more shots as a passer this season than he has in the past.

[kalibane]

I think the key for him is getting some protection. You're definitely right about the turnover thing. The yards per attempt I chalk up more to the fact that he is actually going through his progression and hitting his check downs instead of just bolting from the pocket and turning what is now a short yardage pass into a running attempt.

Let me put it this way... He's making the effort to learn how to stand tall in the pocket and make his reads, not rely on his legs so much. Sometimes it works out (I've seen him make a few throws from the pocket that NEVER would have happened the past two years), sometimes not so much. It's just not natural to him yet. On the field it's resulting in a step back in overall efficiency but it's a necessary step to take. Some guys it never really clicks and never becomes second nature (Doug Flutie, Vince Young). Some guys it ends up working out (Mark Brunnell, Steve Young). Kaepernick is doing the work. Time will tell if this is the step back to take a step forward or if he's always just going to be an athlete.

You're also right he's taking a lot more hits this year, but I think that's a product of his O-Line. Those guys have been getting crushed up the middle. He took one sack last week where he just didn't have a chance and got anihilated. He may take a hit holding the ball a little long but he still has a really good feel for avoiding contact when he gets out of the pocket. But if his protection doesn't get better he could end up suffering from David Carr Syndrome where he starts feeling that phantom rush and just can't get right. That can happen to anyone. I started seeing RW leaving the pocket a beat too early last year after a few weeks playing with all the backups.

[HumanCockroach]

"The yards per attempt I chalk up more to the fact that he is actually going through his progression and hitting his check downs instead of just bolting from the pocket and turning what is now a short yardage pass into a running attempt'

I think this is a fair statement, I mean behind bad pass protection hitting a check down is important, and is a sign of a QB maturing ( unless I guess the coaching staff is making those check downs and hot reads the 1st option, which has in the past been done to mitigate a QB's poor decision making) I don't believe that's the case with Kaepernick in this instance. I agree with Kal that there has been improvement, that said, I don't think he is as close to polished as it seems most that are in his camp want people to believe.

It's a work in progress, and whether he ever truly gets it remains to be seen. But I think rating him with the Geno's, Manuel, Ponders etc is a huge stretch. Just don't see it. The guy is "good", slightly above the "Dalton Line" with room to grow ( stole that from some blogger or other, and it means if you have a QB as good as Dalton, or better, you're "sound" at QB, BELOW AND YOU Have to replace him asap).

[Hawktawk]

My main takeaway from the game was thank goodness we have Wilson as opposed to either of those guys we watched yesterday. Kap is a familiar story, incredible velocity on the ball and explosive running ability coupled with delay of game penalties, inaccurate throws, poor reads, stupid timeouts and a lack of an internal clock. Foles performance was even more eye opening. I really hadn't analyzed him much and I saw a super slow nonathletic plodder. He was not patient with the ball and he has the slowest windup since Byron Leftwich.I couldn't believe he couldn't even get a single throw into the end zone where someone at least had a chance of catching it in the final 2 minutes.And Slim Shady, my goodness what happened to the guy this year? Clearly that teams success has had a lot more to do with whose been on their schedule than any outstanding characteristics of their team.

Looks to me like 3 wins for the Hawks between the 2 of the teams....

[Zorn76]

We'll see what happens by season's end.

Everyone knows it's SB (win no less) or bust for our division rival this year.

If they don't win it, is that reason alone enough to see JH leave or fired?

I dunno, maybe.

(Owner) Jed York and (GM) Balke would have to have a pretty good plan lined up to replace him.

Meanwhile, Harbaugh would have several options in terms of landing with another NFL team. I doubt very much he'd go back to college.

Been there, done that.

Besides, his older brother beat him in the SB. He definitely wants a Lombardi of his own.

[RiverDog]

It would take more than not getting to the SB for Hairball to get fired. I'm not saying that this might be his last season as a Niners coach, but they won't fire him. For one thing, they'd have to pay him if they canned him and he ended up back in the colleges, and the Michigan job is almost certainly going to open up.

The Niners host Kansas City this week. I'd love to be a fly on the wall down there if Alex Smith outplays Kaepernick and the Niners lose big.

[kalibane]

The buzz is that Harbaugh is so abrasive that it will take a Superbowl for him to stay in SF. Remember all that trade talk to Cleveland last year. We may see that kind of thing this year. Besides SF ain't strapped for cash, especially with a new stadium. If they are considering firing him, having to pay him his salary won't be a consideration.

[RiverDog]

The buzz is that Harbaugh is so abrasive that it will take a Superbowl for him to stay in SF. Remember all that trade talk to Cleveland last year. We may see that kind of thing this year. Besides SF ain't strapped for cash, especially with a new stadium. If they are considering firing him, having to pay him his salary won't be a consideration.

If they did fire him after getting to the NFCCG again, it would be completely unprecedented in the NFL. The only scenario I can compare it to would be when the Yankees fired manager Yogi Berra in the mid 60's after having come within a game of winning the World Series.

I don't discount the trade idea, or the Niners cutting him loose in a mutually agreed upon settlement. But I would be stunned if he had another season where he got to the NFCCG and was removed against his will.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="kalibane"

If they did fire him after getting to the NFCCG again, it would be completely unprecedented in the NFL. The only scenario I can compare it to would be when the Yankees fired manager Yogi Berra in the mid 60's after having come within a game of winning the World Series.

I don't discount the trade idea, or the Niners cutting him loose in a mutually agreed upon settlement. But I would be stunned if he had another season where he got to the NFCCG and was removed against his will.

I have to quibble RD. Marty Schottenheimer was fired after leading the Chargers to the AFC championship game.Not to mention there were a couple boneheaded mistakes by veteran players that were the only thing keeping them out of the Superbowl. I understand it was only one championship game but he was generally very successful there. And unlike Hairball he was universally loved by his players.Its the dumbest thing SD ever did.

As for SF this year I wouldn't pencil them in for an NFC title game just yet. Lots of football left...

[Zorn76]

As you would expect, it's getting alot of buzz here on bay are radio, with any number of theories concerning the cause(s) of this stuff.

I think a trade makes sense if it comes to that. No way they just cut this guy loose for nothing. Either way, there's been enough speculation to the point where the story probably has some legs.

I can't imagine another 4 yrs of what's going on now, and Harbaugh could likely get more money from another franchise anyway. He also would probably get more control over personnel decisions with another team as well.

Gonna be a very interesting off season for them, because I doubt very much they end up winning the SB this year.

[obiken]

The Niners will be defined by their record by two opponents: US and Zona, and so will we.

[RiverDog]

I have to quibble RD. Marty Schottenheimer was fired after leading the Chargers to the AFC championship game.Not to mention there were a couple boneheaded mistakes by veteran players that were the only thing keeping them out of the Superbowl. I understand it was only one championship game but he was generally very successful there. And unlike Hairball he was universally loved by his players.Its the dumbest thing SD ever did.

As for SF this year I wouldn't pencil them in for an NFC title game just yet. Lots of football left...

Good call, Hawktalk. I'd forgotten about Marty Ball and that absolute gift of a game. New England was luckier than a 3 peckered Billy goat in a heard of sheep to have made it to that SB.

But Schottenheimer didn't make it to 4 straight CG's in his only 4 seasons as HC, which is what Hairball will have done if they fire him under the circumstances we are talking about here, so it would still be unprecedented.

[RiverDog]

As you would expect, it's getting alot of buzz here on bay are radio, with any number of theories concerning the cause(s) of this stuff.

I think a trade makes sense if it comes to that. No way they just cut this guy loose for nothing. Either way, there's been enough speculation to the point where the story probably has some legs.

I can't imagine another 4 yrs of what's going on now, and Harbaugh could likely get more money from another franchise anyway. He also would probably get more control over personnel decisions with another team as well.

Gonna be a very interesting off season for them, because I doubt very much they end up winning the SB this year.

What about a trade to the Raiders? How do you think that would go over down there?

[c_hawkbob]

The Raiders are gonna give Gruden whatever he want's to be their HC in 2015.

[RiverDog]

The Raiders are gonna give Gruden whatever he want's to be their HC in 2015.

I realize that the Raiders Nation loves Jon Gruden and that hiring him would be a huge boost to lagging season ticket sales, but do you really think he'd be willing to take on that dead from the neck up franchise? It would seem to me that if Gruden wanted to get back into coaching that there'd be a lot better jobs than the one in Oakland.

[c_hawkbob]

I honestly believe Gruden is a Raider at heart and that he would love nothing more that resurrecting that franchise to be his legacy. Even while declining offers from NFL to NCAA to HS teams he's always said that he would one day return to coaching if it were the right situation. I think that final decision making authority, similar to Carroll's, with the Raiders would be just that right situation for him.

As for the Raiders, even while Mark Davis has said publicly that the new coaching hire would be Reggie McKenzie's call, he also just recently said "I don't know, he (Gruden) may reach out to me, I may reach out to him. I may reach out to anybody. I'm not going to talk about future coaches." ... Sounds to me like it'll be McKenzie's call IF it aint Davis' call first.

And even though Gruden has declined Davis and his dad before, they weren't looking at $60M+ in cap room for the next season and hadn't already acquired their franchise QB in Derrick Carr, who Gruden loves. In fact he told him "I want you" in his QB camp session: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HeUQPqpGzY

[Hawk Sista]

BULLDOGS!!!!

[RiverDog]

As far as Gruden to the Raiders, I'll believe it when I see it. We have to take his comments with a grain of salt. He's said things that indicates he's not interested, too. Is he being honest when he tells us how much he really loves his TV career, or is he simply being coy so as to extract the best possible deal for himself? Who knows. Coaches lie as much or more as politicians when it comes to their desired career paths. We used to hear rumors about Cowher and Dungy every time a job opened up, too. Not so much anymore.

Interesting musings, ObS. Jimmy Brown was the earliest football player I can recollect as having watched and being impressed with. I must have been 5 or 6 years old when I started peeking over my dad's shoulder watching my first football games. I never was a Raiders fan. I had a lot of favorites pre-1976, including at various times the Chiefs, Niners, Cowboys, and Dolphins. It was simpler watching football back then, and not j/b there was fewer teams and fewer viewing choices. There was less specialization. None of these mass changes on 3rd down. A fullback was a 3 down player. So was a middle linebacker. Two and only two WR's. None of this confusing terminology like a 3 tech defensive tackle, a Y receiver, or a Tampa 2 defense. A tie was a tie. It's been interesting witnessing how the game has changed.

[Seahawks4Ever]

The first player I was impressed with when I was a kid was Roger Staubach. Roger the dodger he was called and watching him run all over the place yet he could still throw the ball accurately down the field was cool. The way Russell Wilson moves reminds me more of Fran Tarkington but the way he throws the ball down the field reminds me of Rodger. I guess Wilson is a hybrid of the two so to speak.

[Long Time Fan]

although I enjoyed the Snake years, but it is sad to see a storied franchise at such a low ebb. There was a tradition of Raider nastiness, of piratical mayhem, with really good players and a real threat when they came to your town. Now, meh.

I have an affection for the original NFL teams I wish the Colts were still in Baltimore. It is hard to picture Unitas and Berry in Indianapolis.

In the day there were only a few teams, and it was simple to follow them. No TV coverage to speak of, but simplicity. Aw, heck with it, it's more fun now.

. I had a lot of favorites pre-1976, including at various times the Chiefs, Niners, Cowboys, and Dolphins. It was simpler watching football back then, and not j/b there was fewer teams and fewer viewing choices. It's been interesting witnessing how the game has changed.

The first player I was impressed with when I was a kid was Roger Staubach. Roger the dodger he was called and watching him run all over the place yet he could still throw the ball accurately down the field was cool. The way Russell Wilson moves reminds me more of Fran Tarkington but the way he throws the ball down the field reminds me of Rodger. I guess Wilson is a hybrid of the two so to speak.

Good stuff boys. That's my generation and its fun to remember those days, but today's better is better.

BTW, I hope that the 49er's foolishly fire/trade Harbaugh. It doesn't mean much if there is dissension in the ranks as long as they are winning and love him or hate him, Harbaugh is a winner (it hurts just typing that).

[kalibane]

Even good coaches have a shelf life, and some are shorter than others. Jim Harbaugh is one of those guys who has a shorter shelf life in one place than most. Really good coach, but there is a reason why Stanford didn't even try to entice him to stay. It's not like those sideline tantrums he throws are something he does just for the cameras. Imagine having to deal with a guy like that every day. It would get old.

[RiverDog]

Even good coaches have a shelf life, and some are shorter than others. Jim Harbaugh is one of those guys who has a shorter shelf life in one place than most. Really good coach, but there is a reason why Stanford didn't even try to entice him to stay. It's not like those sideline tantrums he throws are something he does just for the cameras. Imagine having to deal with a guy like that every day. It would get old.

Good point about Hairball and Stanford. Is it any coincidence that David Shaw is the anti Hairball in that he's a perfect gentleman?

[HumanCockroach]

http://deadspin.com/report-ray-mcdonald ... socialflow

Another Niner looking to skate? Can't believe this police department thought this was ok.

( on a side note, what are the odds Mcdonald faces nothing, Santa Clara continues to play him, and random trolls defend these actions 100%?)

[Zorn76]

Still lots of speculation with this story.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2 ... jay-glazer

Considering the talent, youth, and (near) success this team has had recently, it would be an interesting transition for the next HC, should Harbaugh actually end up leaving.

The players are still pros, though, playing hard for the guy each Sunday.

[RiverDog]

The Niners are hanging tough. Obviously they're not the same team they were a year ago, but they're winning close games. I'm not writing them off yet.

[Long Time Fan]

Even good coaches have a shelf life, and some are shorter than others. Jim Harbaugh is one of those guys who has a shorter shelf life in one place than most. Really good coach, but there is a reason why Stanford didn't even try to entice him to stay. It's not like those sideline tantrums he throws are something he does just for the cameras. Imagine having to deal with a guy like that every day. It would get old.

I completely agree. There is only one thing that makes having to put up with the likes of Harbaugh tolerable. Winning.

The interesting thing here is that this is not really a case of the inmates running the asylum; the players discontent is an aside. Harbaugh's axe will only come down from the floor above him. I hope it happens; the 49ers will become less formidable without the pain in their azz.

[Uppercut]

More Weekly Niner Action!!!!http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/10/06/video-surfaces-of-49er-fans-fighting-inside-levis-stadium-bathroom/

[c_hawkbob]

Bathrooms full of thugs and comment sections full of bigots ... way to go Niner fans!