Special Teams

[RiverDog]

Kickoff return set up one TD. Really, really bad punt return for another. And the dagger in the heart was the fake punt (can you believe the balls Fisher had?) that for all intents and purposes ended our chances. I can't remember our special teams having a worse day.

An honest question: I was always taught as a punt coverage man that after you hear the thud of a punt to turn your head and locate the ball. Are punters so reliable in their accuracy that coverage personnel are no longer given these instructions? Was that punt all on Ryan to put it in a specific 1/3 of the field?

[HumanCockroach]

Not sure the NFL is quite the same as HS ball RD. The players reacted to the blockers, something Carroll admitted was a tendency they teach/taught (not even the only time this has happened in the NFL, happened to Chicago almost identically a few seasons ago). Thing is Ryan put the ball, EXACTLY where they intended him to do so, the breakdown was in the coaches teaching that technique and not keep players prepared.

Honestly when I was the gunner, never once looked up to find the ball, always, always tracked the returner/ blockers, as 99.99% of the time, they will tell a player absolutely everything they need to know, from where the ball is headed, to when it's going to arrife, to where they intend to return it. The mistake was made with the guy who's "blocker" peeled away ( I think it was Lockette, but am not sure) had he seen his blocker peel back to where the kick was supposed to go, should have known something was fishy, blockers don't peel away from the returner.

Crappy play, and one they won't be able to use again for a long time successfully, but when outgunned you pull out everything from the bag, ie fake punt inside your own twenty ( though have to say, I saw that coming a MILE away, so the ST coach should have too).

ultimately, no, I don't think NFL ( or college players for that matter) look up to find the ball on every punt ( unless they are looking to have their head removed from their neck) or really at all. Lineman I suppose have an easier time of it, as the ball is already gone before they can move, that said, we aren't talking about a ball 30' in the air either. In the NFL some players would have to look straight up, and sometimes still not find it.

[RiverDog]

Not sure the NFL is quite the same as HS ball RD. The players reacted to the blockers, something Carroll admitted was a tendency they teach/taught (not even the only time this has happened in the NFL, happened to Chicago almost identically a few seasons ago). Thing is Ryan put the ball, EXACTLY where they intended him to do so, the breakdown was in the coaches teaching that technique and not keep players prepared.

Honestly when I was the gunner, never once looked up to find the ball, always, always tracked the returner/ blockers, as 99.99% of the time, they will tell a player absolutely everything they need to know, from where the ball is headed, to when it's going to arrife, to where they intend to return it. The mistake was made with the guy who's "blocker" peeled away ( I think it was Lockette, but am not sure) had he seen his blocker peel back to where the kick was supposed to go, should have known something was fishy, blockers don't peel away from the returner.

Crappy play, and one they won't be able to use again for a long time successfully, but when outgunned you pull out everything from the bag, ie fake punt inside your own twenty ( though have to say, I saw that coming a MILE away, so the ST coach should have too).

ultimately, no, I don't think NFL ( or college players for that matter) look up to find the ball on every punt ( unless they are looking to have their head removed from their neck) or really at all. Lineman I suppose have an easier time of it, as the ball is already gone before they can move, that said, we aren't talking about a ball 30' in the air either. In the NFL some players would have to look straight up, and sometimes still not find it.

That's why I asked the question. I honestly don't know how punt coverage teams in the NFL are taught, and only have my experience in HS and college to go by. The fact that every single player on our team got faked out seems to indicate that they make the assumption that the punt is going to go a certain direction. It seems to me that it doesn't take away from your ability to get downfield promptly to take one glance at the ball and set your route. It's not unlike an outfielder tracking a fly ball. It's not that big of a distraction to take one look at the trajectory and figure out the general vicinity of where it's going to land, or at least that's my impression.

We got snookered twice in that game, both on special teams.

[Seahawks4Ever]

I just about threw up when PC said the team was aware that Fisher might do a fake punt in that situation and that the coaching staff had prepared for it.

What a complete load of BS if they had prepared for it they would have stopped it. I am getting really sick of Pete and his double talk. Just admit you were out coached in all phases of the game Pete and maybe I can respect you again, but right now if I was Paul Allen PC would be on thin ice.

[THX-1138]

I just about threw up when PC said the team was aware that Fisher might do a fake punt in that situation and that the coaching staff had prepared for it.

What a complete load of BS if they had prepared for it they would have stopped it. I am getting really sick of Pete and his double talk. Just admit you were out coached in all phases of the game Pete and maybe I can respect you again, but right now if I was Paul Allen PC would be on thin ice.

Seriously? 6 games removed from our Super Bowl win and we're putting Pete Carroll on notice? Isn't that just a tad reactionary?

[mykc14]

I just about threw up when PC said the team was aware that Fisher might do a fake punt in that situation and that the coaching staff had prepared for it.

What a complete load of BS if they had prepared for it they would have stopped it. I am getting really sick of Pete and his double talk. Just admit you were out coached in all phases of the game Pete and maybe I can respect you again, but right now if I was Paul Allen PC would be on thin ice.

You really think they hadn't prepared for a play that the Rams have put on film a few times? I do. Fischer was wearing his big boy pants and took a huge risk with the lead and a play that guarantees a loss if not executed properly. Ballsy, unexpected move and it happens. Sometimes it allows you to win the game and sometimes it costs you a loss. Do you want to know why the Hawks are so vulnerable to special teams trick plays? Because they are so disciplined and well coached. We love that they fly to the ball and almost broke an NFL record for least return yards allowed but call them stupid when a well designed play exploits that (the TD on the return). That's the thing about coaching against a well disciplined team or unit, you can key on their tendencies but it only works once or twice a season, then they adjust. Now if a team somehow tried to run a trick play against our O-line it would never work, because they aren't exactly disciplined. But our special teams as a whole has been. They almost never lose lane integrity. They fly to the ball. They take great tackling angles. They maintain outside leverage. All things that amazing special teams players do, rarely it will cost you a game. The kickoff return is the one example of not being disciplined, and it is so rare for a hawks team under pete carroll .

Pc on thin ice. 6 games after the SB. Come on.

[depaashaas]

Kickoff return set up one TD. Really, really bad punt return for another. And the dagger in the heart was the fake punt (can you believe the balls Fisher had?) that for all intents and purposes ended our chances. I can't remember our special teams having a worse day.

An honest question: I was always taught as a punt coverage man that after you hear the thud of a punt to turn your head and locate the ball. Are punters so reliable in their accuracy that coverage personnel are no longer given these instructions? Was that punt all on Ryan to put it in a specific 1/3 of the field?

Cant say much about the ball locating against after the punt they played that one very, very well kudo's to them for that one. The one that get's me is the fake punt on 4th and 2 .I would have done fake punt as well, matter of fact I was screaming at tv to tell them to watch for a fake punt, kinda stupid I know as only one that could hear me was my wife. Fisher had no other choice than doing just that, the way Hawks were moving up and down the field with all they needed was a field goal giving them the ball at what their own 40 yard line would have cost the rams the game most likely for sure. Actually I remember special teams getting beat on something similar, two years ago at the rams of all teams they fake the field goal and go for pass to make it a TD, I don't think that a TD or field goal would have made a difference back then but same punter lines up and does same crap against you again, that's sloppy. And other time I they got beat on trick play, and I believe it was also the rams were it was punt or so and some guy looks like he is walking of the field and sneaky stays on field and rams are able make big play. Jeff Fisher is known for his trick plays, did it with titans and is still doing it and unfortunately very well against the Hawks.

[FolkCrusader]

If the fake punt fails you are guaranteed to lose the game as the hawks get the ball in easy FG range. Best case after the punt (for the Rams) the Seahawks get the ball with two minutes to go on about their 30. What Fisher decided was the Seahawks had a near certain chance to score from their own 30 or at least a better chance than he had to execute the fake punt for a first down. He decided to let his ST decide the game.

As far as playing the fake, if you go back and look at it they certainly were. Sherman was on the left side, he doesn't play special teams and he was out there. The problem was the safety, Shead I think had to cross over to cover the FB or upback in that case. He was slow to get out there and the ball was delivered perfectly. It was a good play, executed perfectly, and it beat us.

[HumanCockroach]

Sherman always plays the outside on the punt return team, and has been for two years. The only time Sherman comes off the field on punt return, is in punt block. ( wasn't it here we discussed Sherman's block against GB knocking the Packer player into ET that caused the fumble). Not sure where you got that impression, but Sherm, Maxwell and ET play on the PR team.

[RiverDog]

IMO the reason Fisher took that gamble was that with the field position we stood to get the ball in he reasoned that he wouldn't have been able to stop the Hawks offense from getting just a FG. He was also 1-5, and with his star QB out for the year, their season is in the tank whether or not he was successful. I can almost guarantee you that if he were 5-1 with a healthy Sam Bradford that he wouldn't have taken such a gamble and would have played the odds.

Saying that PC is on thin ice with Paul Allen is ludicrous. If you know anything about Paul Allen, it would take Pete 4-5 years of missing the playoffs for him to reach that status.

[FolkCrusader]

Sherman always plays the outside on the punt return team, and has been for two years. The only time Sherman comes off the field on punt return, is in punt block. ( wasn't it here we discussed Sherman's block against GB knocking the Packer player into ET that caused the fumble). Not sure where you got that impression, but Sherm, Maxwell and ET play on the PR team.

He plays the left side every time on punts? HC, you're full of it.

[c_hawkbob]

Our special teams have for most of the Carroll era be superb, among the best in the league if not clearly the best. There is no doubt they cost us this game, but I see this as an outlier, not an indication of what we can expect on a regular basis all the sudden. I think we'll get 'em fixed.

[mykc14]

He plays the left side every time on punts? HC, you're full of it.

Not to get into this little argument, but he is out there on punt returns, which is what you guys were originally talking about, as in when the other team is punting he is out blocking the gunner. If you are talking about when our team is punting then no his is not out there.

[NorthHawk]

At the NFL level, and with the Punters being so good, do they not say in the huddle or sidelines prior to the kick where they are going to kick it to?
Meaning the punter would tell the team he intends to punt the ball to the left or right sideline.

I have no idea if that happens, but it seems like something that might.

[Hawktawk]

Are u effing kidding me!!!!!WTF that was the most embarrassing special teams performance I can recall. Carroll and his staff got their jocks handed to them along with the players on the field. Theres no excuse for 3 huge plays in one game. Fisher always has something for Seattle like the fake FG with Amendola hiding on the sidelines.Right before that punt my brother said watch the fake but Carroll admitted they did not expect it.From a strategic standpoint it was brilliant.If it succeeds the game is basically over. If it fails there is too much clock for Seattle to kill and it is still a one score game Rams ball whether Seattle kicks a FG or scores a TD. It was genius.

I sure hope its the outlier because if I see much more of this sheer stupidity in this head on a swivel game I'm smashing my TV and I cant afford a new one...

[HumanCockroach]

No I'm not "full of it" Sherman is on every single PR unless he is injured, or he has been pulled for a block. If you truly believe I am "full of it" go back and look. You'll see him blocking on almost every single return over the last two seasons, as well as returning a blocked FG, and on kick coverage ( as well as ET, Kam and NUMEROUS other starters). Sorry if you do not believe me, or if you haven't noticed, but that is simply how they ( the Seahawks) run their ST. They do NOT differentiate between starters and backups on ST, and play their starters regularly on ST's and have since Carroll arrived.

[monkey]

I'm a little taken aback by some of what I've read in here. Seriously, who follows the Seahawks and doesn't know that Sherm, ET and several other starters have played special teams all along???
Someone above posted that the reason our special teams got taken advantage of was that they are SO disciplined in the way they do things, that Fisher found tendencies to exploit, (nailed it!) then others ripped him for it...
The reason that the Seahawks have been so stinking great at punt coverage is that they have guys with tons of speed, such as Lockette, who do a TERRIFIC job of staying in their lanes, taking the proper angles, disengaging quickly off blocks, and making the big tackles, all while running at very high speeds.

6 games after a Super Bowl win is WAY too early to be busting your ankles jumping off the bandwagon guys.
Much of what many of you guys are posting right now is so ridiculously over the top negative, my eyeballs are hurting from doing too much of this after reading the comments.
A bunch of Henny Penny's in here screaming that the sky is falling...

[HumanCockroach]

I use "nervous Nancies" but the gist is the same.....

[RiverDog]

Who said the sky is falling? It wasn't me, and that's not why I started the thread.

The Rams punt return for a TD was one of the weirdest looking plays I've ever seen. I didn't know WTF was going on because the cameraman was decoyed just as badly as the coverage team. I was asking an honest question about how punt coverage teams are coached, as so many were decoyed that they almost had to be coached not to look up for the ball, the exact opposite to how I was taught.

Even though Pete's ST's have more than held their own during his tenure, we got snookered twice, and it clearly cost us the game. The Rams did their homework, and pulled out all the stops as if this was some sort of pivotal, season changing game, more evidence that Fisher felt he had nothing to lose, that the season was already in the tank, so why not?

I also realize, as I am sure that most of us diehard 12's do, that Sherm, ET, and other starters regularly play on ST's, as well they should. ST's are a critical component of the game, a fact that we were made painfully aware of last Sunday, and you always want your best players on the field relevant to the specific circumstance.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Was I being reactionary? Yes, of course I was. Who could watch that and NOT be mad. BTW, Pete never said that he didn't expect that fake he said that he indeed was prepared for it and that they had prepared for it during the week. But, the FACT is even if Pete is telling the truth then his team was beaten on ST all through the game yet they supposedly expected and prepared for the fakes.

Now, I am NOT jumping off of the band wagon because we could very easily be 6-0 and not 3-3. But, there are times when I am as exasperated at Pete Carroll almost as much as River Dog is at times. Last season our ST was the one of the best if not the best in the NFL, this season not so much.

[HumanCockroach]

I called that fake from the comfort of a sofa, but to say any NFL team would have been "expecting" it is a huge reach. If for some reason it hadn't worked, Fischer could have been in some serious hot water, and I have seen coaches get fired for far less critical gambles ( not saying Fischer would have, just that the call was a serious, gamble, and one that people seldom see, and probably won't see again for the next decade or two) game situations matter, Fischer gambled that he could pull it off, let's not make this some sort of "our coach is an idiot for not expecting a team to run a fake punt on their own 18 yard line up two With three minutes and change , and Fischer is some sort of genius coach because he did so" debate. Neither is remotely true. Fischer had some serious cajones to make that call, and he was successful, but really no coach from pee wee to the pro's expects that call to be made. The PR fake was by far more concerning to me, than the fake, as it wasn't some bizarro decision that created it's success, and it wasn't something that at the time, could be considered crazy ( which the last fake punt certainly could and SHOULD be considered, based on standard coaching principles).

[RiverDog]

I called that fake from the comfort of a sofa, but to say any NFL team would have been "expecting" it is a huge reach. If for some reason it hadn't worked, Fischer could have been in some serious hot water, and I have seen coaches get fired for far less critical gambles ( not saying Fischer would have, just that the call was a serious, gamble, and one that people seldom see, and probably won't see again for the next decade or two) game situations matter, Fischer gambled that he could pull it off, let's not make this some sort of "our coach is an idiot for not expecting a team to run a fake punt on their own 18 yard line up two With three minutes and change , and Fischer is some sort of genius coach because he did so" debate. Neither is remotely true. Fischer had some serious cajones to make that call, and he was successful, but really no coach from pee wee to the pro's expects that call to be made. The PR fake was by far more concerning to me, than the fake, as it wasn't some bizarro decision that created it's success, and it wasn't something that at the time, could be considered crazy ( which the last fake punt certainly could and SHOULD be considered, based on standard coaching principles).

IMO if Fisher lost that game, he'd be in serious hot water. How many games had they lost this season when they blew big leads? I think he sensed that the game had turned and our getting at least to within FG range was inevitable, so this was his last, best chance to salvage the game, and having done their homework, they must have felt that the odds of pulling it off were very good unless someone completely phucked up by dropping or overthrowing the pass. He still might be in hot water even if they have a respectable end to the season. It might be playoffs or bust for him, as the Rams could be eyeballing a move back to SoCal and might think that they owe themselves a completely new beginning with a new coach, new uniforms, new everything to coincide with a new locale. With the win, the Rams remain relevant as no one is running away with the NFC West this season.

[Hawktawk]

IMO if Fisher lost that game, he'd be in serious hot water. How many games had they lost this season when they blew big leads? I think he sensed that the game had turned and our getting at least to within FG range was inevitable, so this was his last, best chance to salvage the game, and having done their homework, they must have felt that the odds of pulling it off were very good unless someone completely phucked up by dropping or overthrowing the pass. He still might be in hot water even if they have a respectable end to the season. It might be playoffs or bust for him, as the Rams could be eyeballing a move back to SoCal and might think that they owe themselves a completely new beginning with a new coach, new uniforms, new everything to coincide with a new locale. With the win, the Rams remain relevant as no one is running away with the NFC West this season.[/quote]

I dont see Fisher as being in danger right now. He lost his starter and had to start a journeyman who got hurt and led to Davis being inserted. And still this team has been competitive and could have won most of their games. And the ST screw ups were a huge factor but Davies timely play making and ability to avoid sacks led to an 18-21 passing performance. That 89% percentage is a record against a defending SB team. Fisher isn't going anywhere unfortunately and if he should leave there would be teams calling immediately.He and Arians are coaching their ass off right now. Carroll and Harbaugh are a bit off their game.