Was Marshawn At Fault for the Interception....?

[savvyman]

Before the Half?

Most opinions I have read says that he is at fault.

I posted during the game thread that I did not think so.

So since I DVR each Seahawk game I went back and watched the replay.

The replay showed that Marshawn did his best to field a difficult angle pass coming at a very high velocity from Russell Wilson.

Below is a photo from the replay. What you cannot see from this Photo is Marshawn leaving his feet and stretching out as far as his arms could while twisting towards the ball to make his best effort to pull in Russell's very high velocity throw.

No way can you blame Marshawn for this INT.

Marshawn.jpg (273.9 KiB) Viewed 3484 times

[c_hawkbob]

Yes, no question. Hit him right in the hands. Both of them.

That picture is deceiving, parallax view, run the tape and it's a whole different look.

[Anthony]

Yes, no question. Hit him right in the hands. Both of them.

That picture is deceiving, parallax view, run the tape and it's a whole different look.

Agreed I have re watched it a lot and it hit him square in the hands and should have been caught. Also FYI it was not his only drop.

[burrrton]

I'd be willing to bet Marshawn himself would tell you it was his fault. It wasn't a gimme, but Marshawn's a good receiver and he'll catch that ball 9 times out of 10.

[savvyman]

Yes, no question. Hit him right in the hands. Both of them.

That picture is deceiving, parallax view, run the tape and it's a whole different look.

It was a rocket throw that "Hit him in the Hands" as he had leave his feet to jump towards the ball and reach as far as he could just to be able to get both hands on the ball.

The Picture clearly shows this.

That is no gimme at all. Even with all that Marshawn almost successfully pulled in this very difficult pass to catch.

There is nothing deceiving about that photo except that you cannot see from the photo that Marshawn's feet are no longer on the ground because he has left the turf to try and haul in this rocket of a pass.

[burrrton]

Savvy, c'mon. It *was* a hard throw, but not *that* hard, and touch passes don't cut it in the endzone.

He doesn't deserve that much criticism, but for pete's sake- he was facing RW, he didn't have to reach all that much, and the ball hit him in the hands. Agree it's no gimme, but there's no question that's a catch NFL players make 99% of the time and one that I have no doubt ML will catch the next 100 times it's thrown to him.

[savvyman]

Savvy, c'mon. It *was* a hard throw, but not *that* hard, and touch passes don't cut it in the endzone.

He doesn't deserve that much criticism, but for pete's sake- he was facing RW, he didn't have to reach all that much, and the ball hit him in the hands. Agree it's no gimme, but there's no question that's a catch NFL players make 99% of the time and one that I have no doubt ML will catch the next 100 times it's thrown to him.

Watch the replay several times now including slow motion.

There was no need for Russell to throw the Ball High and where he did.

Russell Wilson had a clear "Head to Toe" throwing lane to Marshawn on that pass play. Instead of the Ball being directed to Marshawn's Body area... the ball was thrown out and to his right forcing Marshawn to leave his feet and stretch out as far as he could - (As the Photo above clearly shows) - to try and reign in the pass.

And it was a hard throw - the announcer said the throw "Had a lot of zip on it".

That interception is much more on Wilson then it is on Lynch.

[HumanCockroach]

I'll go with what Carroll said about it, and what I'm fairly certain Lynch would say about it, which is "I should have caught the ball". If Wilson puts more touch on it, we are having a different conversation IE, why did he put so much touch on the ball? Because if he had done so, it was STILL an interception, about the only thing that would have worked was either a hard pass, or attempting to hit him in the gut. Would it have been caught if he had hit him in the belly button instead? I'm not entirely sure it would have, and honestly, I kind of doubt he scores even if he had. There is a small window on most throws, and that become exponentially smaller the closer to the goal line a team gets. The throw "lead" him into the end zone, but any "receiver" should come down with a ball that hits him in both hands, whether he leaves the ground, or has to stretch for it or not ( baring a DB breaking up the play), and Lynch on that throw IS a receiver, and IS expected to catch a ball that hits both hands. This wasn't some insane finger tip, toe tap catch, and PLENTY of receivers on this team have made FAR more difficult catches, with less experience ( Heflet had one ten times more difficult last week) so , yeah, he should indeed have caught the football.

Doesn't mean I have issues with Lynch, or am going on some crusade against him, just means he messed up. Wilson did in other parts of the game, Sherman and Earl did going for a pick, instead of simply knocking the ball away from Benjamin, Schilling did when he couldn't snap a ball correctly , SShe ad did when he couldn't cover a ball that bounced right into his gut, etc,etc,etc...... Everyone messes up, and Beast isn't close to "infallible".

[HumanCockroach]

Savy, regardless, plenty of QB's throw balls that receivers have to go get, whether they be named Manning, or Brees or any other QB through the history of the game, not ever throw a QB makes is picture perfect, just like every catch made happens because of it. If it hit's the hands ( notice not the finger tips, not one hand, not behind the receiver etc) it SHOULD be caught.

Receivers and QB's work together, and not every catch is going to be "easy", just isn't. Lynch should have made the catch, whether Wilson could have made it "easier" has nothing to do with it, not one bit. If it should be caught, it should be caught, whether a QB can make it easier to that, is irrelevant.

[savvyman]

Savy, regardless, plenty of QB's throw balls that receivers have to go get, whether they be named Manning, or Brees or any other QB through the history of the game, not ever throw a QB makes is picture perfect, just like every catch made happens because of it. If it hit's the hands ( notice not the finger tips, not one hand, not behind the receiver etc) it SHOULD be caught.

Receivers and QB's work together, and not every catch is going to be "easy", just isn't. Lynch should have made the catch, whether Wilson could have made it "easier" has nothing to do with it, not one bit. If it should be caught, it should be caught, whether a QB can make it easier to that, is irrelevant.

I have never said that the pass was uncatchable. I have only responded to the overwhelming (wrong) conclusion of the majority of Seahawk fans who want to put the entire blame for the interception on Lynch.

Not until you watch the replay in slow motion can you see that Russell had a clear throwing lane to Marshawn and instead of placing the ball into his body he threw high and wide which forced Marshawn to do what he could to try and reign in the throw.

Marshawn.jpg (273.9 KiB) Viewed 3441 times

My point is that if there is "blame" to be assigned on this play it belongs more with Wilson than Lynch and it is unfair to Lynch to see that most everyone is blaming him entirely.

Here is Pete Carroll Comments on the play in the post game press conference:


>>>>>> On the fumbled exchange

Unfortunately, we did a little something on the snap and made a bad decision on how we did the snap and gave them the football. I couldn’t tell. It looked like he kind of jammed the ball in a little bit, really hustled the ball into Marshawn (Lynch) too hard for him to probably catch it. That was unfortunate because there was more scores on the board so that game became a very close football game because we couldn’t capitalize there.<<<<<<<


http://blog.thenewstribune.com/seahawks/2014/10/26/russell-wilson-meets-not-black-enough-accusation-head-on-after-leading-win-at-carolina/

[burrrton]

My point is that if there is "blame" to be assigned on this play it belongs more with Wilson than Lynch and it is unfair to Lynch to see that most everyone is blaming him entirely.

If you're looking for acknowledgment that RW's pass wasn't perfect, fine. Granted. But to say it's *more* on RW because the pass wasn't perfect than on ML because he merely bounced it off both hands, that's nonsense.

And that comment from Pete was regarding a fumbled exchange (you even quoted the heading, although I'm not remembering that off the top of my head), not the pass that went through ML's hands.

You've been watching the NFL long enough to know the pass was within normal "NFL pass in the red zone" parameters and should have been caught.

[HumanCockroach]

If it was catcheable , than it was catcheable. Meaning the person catching the ball, should catch the ball. I have no qualms about saying the catch could have been made, should have been made, and will be made 99% of the time. That is only taking into account what I see or have experienced as a player, coach and fan of the game over the last 30 +yrs. The fault lies more often with the guy that could have made the play, should have made the play, instead of the guy delivering the ball a smidge too high, or a smidge to hard. Just my personal experience.

If that is "wrong" so be it, I trust my experiences throughout my life, and have seen HS players make far more difficult catches, regularly.

[monkey]

Was Marshawn at fault for the INT?
Yes.
Not sure why you are trying to pin it on the throw???

The rule: if it hits you in the hands, and you drop it, it's on you.
It hit him right in his hands, it's on him.

Next we'll be trying to blame the botched snap on Wilson too...

[mykc14]

It was a rocket throw that "Hit him in the Hands" as he had leave his feet to jump towards the ball and reach as far as he could just to be able to get both hands on the ball.

The Picture clearly shows this.

That is no gimme at all. Even with all that Marshawn almost successfully pulled in this very difficult pass to catch.

There is nothing deceiving about that photo except that you cannot see from the photo that Marshawn's feet are no longer on the ground because he has left the turf to try and haul in this rocket of a pass.

How could the picture clearly show this when you yourself state that what you CAN"T SEE FROM THE PICTURE is him leaving his feet and having to reach as far as he could to get the ball. Those were your exact words, that the pic DIDN"T show this and now all of the sudden it is CLEAR from the pic. Listen, it wasn't a perfect pass but from what I have seen of the replay it was a catchable ball that ML usually makes. The ball certaintly could have been lower, make a tipped up ball nearly impossible but other than that it should have been caught.

[monkey]

Good grief, that pass was nearly PERFECT!
He placed that pass where ONLY Lynch could get it, led him PERFECTLY so that the trajectory would take him right into the end zone.
Yes, he put zip on it, because if he didn't, it would have been knocked away or picked.

Lynch just clanked it, period.

I'm seriously not even seeing the debate here...that pass was EXACTLY where you want it, the ONLY criticism that could be made about it is, it was thrown with a lot of velocity, because it had to be.
So yeah, he zipped it in there, leading Lynch PERFECTLY, high, and right on his hands.
That pass is every receivers wet dream.

[Anthony]

Watch the replay several times now including slow motion.

There was no need for Russell to throw the Ball High and where he did.

Russell Wilson had a clear "Head to Toe" throwing lane to Marshawn on that pass play. Instead of the Ball being directed to Marshawn's Body area... the ball was thrown out and to his right forcing Marshawn to leave his feet and stretch out as far as he could - (As the Photo above clearly shows) - to try and reign in the pass.

And it was a hard throw - the announcer said the throw "Had a lot of zip on it".

That interception is much more on Wilson then it is on Lynch.

Dude sorry I have re watched it too, weather Rw had to throw it there or not is not relevant, it was catchable, and should have been caught, At some point a WR/Rw/Te has to make a play to help their QB, he did not and it was not his only drop that game. Heck PC even said it in his press today he should have caught it. So sorry he should have caught it period. The reason for the zip is the linebacker about 2 steps form Lynch, he throws it easier it does not get there, and that is visible in the playback and per Moon, Huard, and Millan. It should have been caught period.

[mykc14]

Good grief, that pass was nearly PERFECT!
He placed that pass where ONLY Lynch could get it, led him PERFECTLY so that the trajectory would take him right into the end zone.
Yes, he put zip on it, because if he didn't, it would have been knocked away or picked.

Lynch just clanked it, period.

I'm seriously not even seeing the debate here...that pass was EXACTLY where you want it, the ONLY criticism that could be made about it is, it was thrown with a lot of velocity, because it had to be.
So yeah, he zipped it in there, leading Lynch PERFECTLY, high, and right on his hands.
That pass is every receivers wet dream.

This is basically it, although might not call it perfect. The pass could have been lower, but that would be like a 3 point shot that barely touches the rim and goes in, then saying wow that was a good shot but it could have been a swish.

[NorthHawk]

Lynch is a runner, not a receiver.
That he can catch a lot of balls is a bonus, but it's not what he's here for.
This was not a good throw even if he got both hands on it.
60/40 fault on the throw as I see it.

[HumanCockroach]

Sure North, but if he couldn't catch the ball, he shouldn't have been on the field to catch the ball. I would wager a fair amount that Lynch feels he should have indeed caught the ball, expected to catch the ball, and was the most surprised person on the field when he didn't catch the ball, and his reaction of "oh man, I can't believe I didn't catch the ball" right after it clanked off his hands illustrated that perfectly.

[Hawk Sista]

I love you you, Savvy man.... This is less about you and more of a general discussion point. I just wonder why the need to assign blame on this play? There were mistakes by RW, which he acknowledged. If Beast were the type to speak to the media, he would've accepted blame for that and another drop. Bennett shoulda had the safety, Simon should've had the INT, we shoulda recovered the muffed punt, the Smith strip, RW shoulda hit Cooper....

This constant need to assign specific blame is something that we all do after a loss...which I don't always get. Our offense has put pressure on our D, our D has put pressure on the O. The injuries, lack of depth, near misses, officiating, stupid penalties, different personnel and fans expecting super bowl 48 like results w/ Burly and Broyle..... C'mon man. We won a physical battle at 10 am - 3,500 miles from home missing tons of starters after a tough road loss and a week of negative media. RW was a major reason for that W.

Sure we can study film and make points... & even I can handle criticism of RW. Hell, so can he. But really, if we are honest... We were a few plays away from having this record at this point last year. W/ the injuries we've had and being everyone's super bowl- I think we are fine.

I'm sure RW would like that one back, & I'm sure Marshawn would too. I'm sure RW wishes the ball didn't slip out of his hand when a wide open TE nearing the end zone. And all the other almosts that really could have made this game (last week too) more like a 17 point win.

I'm just glad we get a few home games. I'm Hoping Bobby, Maxi, Zach, Unger Coleman & Lane get healthy by the time we head to KC and we continue to get better. It's a process and it's about hitting our stride at the right time. I still think we can.

[HumanCockroach]

Sorry Sis, but Coleman won't be seen again in uniform until next season. Season ending IR last week.... Turbo is your FB at least as it stands now.

[NorthHawk]

Sure North, but if he couldn't catch the ball, he shouldn't have been on the field to catch the ball. I would wager a fair amount that Lynch feels he should have indeed caught the ball, expected to catch the ball, and was the most surprised person on the field when he didn't catch the ball, and his reaction of "oh man, I can't believe I didn't catch the ball" right after it clanked off his hands illustrated that perfectly.

And if the ball hit him between the numbers he would have had a much better chance of completing the catch.
I would also wager that Russ thinks he could have thrown a better pass.

[Hawk Sista]

Well poop! I thought he had a designation to return. I guess that was dumb. It's already mid-season.

[HumanCockroach]

Sure, and if wishes were horses and all that as well. The question was specific to who held accountability, a catcheable ball is a catcheable ball regardless of how the QB could have made it easier, and let's not pretend like Lynch has never dropped an easy catch in the numbers either. Typically when throwing into the end zone, a QB is taught to lead the receiver there, and that is exactly what Wilson did. Whether it could have been an easier catch or not, it was still catcheable, and by definition of being catcheable, should have been caught.

[RiverDog]

The answer is that it was both their fault. The pass was definitely catchable, but as others have pointed out, Lynch isn't a wide receiver. The ball should have been placed a little lower, so it wasn't so apt to get picked if he missed it. He shouldn't have been made to reach like that. It also exposes your receiver to potential injury.

More to the point is why we chose that play to begin with, throwing a short pass into the center of a defense that is compressed like they are inside the 10. 20/20 hindsight for sure, but any bobble or deflection has a pretty high chance of getting picked off when the traffic is that heavy. If we were going to throw a pass in that situation, I would have rather it been to the corner or back of the end zone where only our guy has a chance of catching it. You don't want to get that close and come away empty handed.

[c_hawkbob]

We chose that play because if he'd caught the ball it would have been a touchdown!

And if you want to know what Pete had to say about it after watching the film, check the 20:30 mark of his Monday Presser: http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/v ... d0fe4f3961

When asked

on the interception is that a ball Marshawn should have caught in your opinion

Pete nods and replies:

He's got really good hands and I think he'd tell you he could catch that ball. It was a hot throw you know, it was in the middle and there was a lot of stuff going on around him and it would have been a terrific play to make, but I trust he's got great hands and for the most part he can catch those balls.

Nothing about too high or too outside or it shouldn't have been that hot, basically It was a tough catch he should have and usually does make but he let this one get by. No big deal, we'd run the same play to him again and trust him to catch it. It's only a big deal because Savvy wants it to be Russel's fault and won't accept anything else for an answer.

[Hawktawk]

And if you want to know what Pete had to say about it after watching the film, check the 20:30 mark of his Monday Presser: http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/v ... d0fe4f3961

When asked on the interception is that a ball Marshawn should have caught in your opinion Pete nods and replies:

He's got really good hands and I think he'd tell you he could catch that ball. It was a hot throw you know, it was in the middle and there was a lot of stuff going on around him and it would have been a terrific play to make, but I trust he's got great hands and for the most part he can catch those balls.

Nothing about too high or too outside or it shouldn't have been that hot, basically It was a tough catch he should have and usually does make but he let this one get by. No big deal, we'd run the same play to him again and trust him to catch it. It's only a big deal because Savvy wants it to be Russel's fault and won't accept anything else for an answer.

IT WAS A HOT THROW,IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A TERRIFIC PLAY TO MAKE. Reading between the lines the throw wasn't perfect and it would have been an awesome catch had he made it. Poor execution on the throw, poor execution on the catch. Nothing more or less. It didn't matter both guys made enough plays to get the win. But as much as I love Wilson some want to deify him. Hes human, hes not perfect. Its easy to forget.

[HumanCockroach]

No one is claiming Wilson as a deity, I myself pointed out multiple poor throws during this game, and could add others, the throw to Lynch wasn't one of them, and is one that many players make on a regular basis, including HS running backs. It was catcheable, and the blame with that goes to the receiver that did not catch the catcheable ball. Lynch is fallible as well, and he on that play, clanked it, flubbed it or whatever else you want to use as an adjective.

[c_hawkbob]

Sorry Tawk but no, the answer was not comparative culpability, the answer was yes that it was Marshawn's drop. Watch the damn video. Pete was clearly nodding assent to the question as asked but was also saying it would have taken a terrific catch and that he trusts Marshawn to usually make those. There is no "between the lines" on hot throw. Hot throw just means it was thrown hard, as many throws need to be, including throws over the short middle in traffic. A touch throw would have no chance of success. This throw did.

As for deifying Wilson, I'm sorry that you're fed up with hearing how good he is and I understand the instinct to push back, but this conversation is about a single play, not Wilson's game (which was marginally below the standard he has set for himself) or his performance to this point of his career (which is still exemplary), just this one single play and it is what it is, no matter how much you want it to be something else.

[burrrton]

Reading between the lines the throw wasn't perfect and it would have been an awesome catch had he made it.

I can't believe we're having to debate this. Watch the play again- would you really have gone "OH NO HE DIDN'T!!!" if he had made the catch??

I don't see how you could.

But as much as I love Wilson some want to deify him. Hes human, hes not perfect. Its easy to forget.

C'mon- admitting that was an eminently catchable pass is not "deifying" anyone.

[monkey]

As for deifying Wilson, I'm sorry that you're fed up with hearing how good he is and I understand the instinct to push back,

I actually don't understand...I don't understand AT ALL the desire to criticize the single best QB we've ever had in Seattle by a mile. It's completely beyond me this...need... I guess is the word, to make sure we're not overly complimentary of Wilson.
It's truly bizarre, and it's the ONLY time in Seahawks history I can remember this ever happening with a player.

Seriously, none of us were trying to temper our excitement about Cortez Kennedy, or Kenny Easley, or Curt Warner, or Steve Largent or...heck even Matt Hasselbeck who wasn't even CLOSE to as good as Wilson is.
What's the deal?!? I'm just not getting it, someone let me in on what's causing this unnecessary worry that we'll heap too much praise on Wilson, because I am just not understanding it at all!

[THX-1138]

First off, I'm not making any claims to being a "real football player" but I did play in high school and oh-so-briefly in college (not really worth mentioning even though I just did--I found out that in college they hit you REALLY HARD AND ARE MUCH BIGGER so I quit--I'm a musician). I played the position of WR and had decent hands and speed for the level I was at. At EVERY level I was taught that as an offensive player who get's touches, if the ball hit's your hands you should catch it. The end. No excuses. Ball thrown too hard? Too bad, make the catch. Have to leap or dive to catch the ball? Still too bad, although if you get hit or slammed into the ground you were forgiven. Pundits and postulators can theorize all they want. An offensive player will ALWAYS tell you that if the ball got there then you should have caught it.

And to address what monkey brought up about Wilson: I've never seen a QB in the history of this franchise be able to carry a team or just plain WILL it to win as I have with RW. Nobody is above reproach but Russell Effing Wilson is just about as close as you get for my money.

[burrrton]

Nobody is above reproach but Russell Effing Wilson is just about as close as you get for my money.

And for needless clarification (again), nobody is saying the pass was perfect, and in fact there were plenty of throws to criticize in that game.

It just so happens, though, that "not perfect" != "his fault".

[Long Time Fan]

There were mistakes by RW, which he acknowledged.

In the interview immediately post game on the field RW did acknowledge mistakes.

My question is, were his comments in direct response to that week's media claim that some players feel that RW doesn't acknowledge his mistakes?

The Dallas game in particular RW failed to throw to or perhaps locate the open receivers. I think perhaps whether on the field, in the locker room, or in the film room, RW is being told by receivers that they are open and maybe RW isn't admitting that he can't see them.

The most blatant example from that game is the last play whether PH was clearly open in the same window where RW forces a throw to a nearby covered receiver and is intercepted.

[Futureite]

I guess one of the cool things about this site is that you all will debate plays and nuances of indivudual players. But in reality, this play means nothing because the Hawks won.

As to the play? Look. Lynch is wide open. Look where the ball was thrown. That is on the QB. The real issue is it's similar to a ball Kraperchoke threw at the end of the KC game to Boldin, which coulda closed the game out. True, coulda been caught. Also true that it was bad ball placement.

But you cannot have Wilson make a play that Kraperdick would make. Or any other QB. Look out clipboard Jesus, the real Mesiah took over in 2012.

[monkey]

*to the tune of "Rawhide" theme song*
Keep trollin' trollin' trollin',
Though they're disapprovin',
Keep them posts a rollin' Futureite!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just lie and smile and type' em,
Keepin' all your comments good and snide.
Boy my head's calculatin'
Your nerves I will be Graitin', be taunting with my epic Niner pride.


Type 'em up, send 'em out,
Type 'em out, send 'em up,
Type 'em on, send 'em out Futuerite!
Set 'em up, knock em down
Subtle digs, let 'em out,
Send 'em out, drag 'em in Futureite.

[Long Time Fan]

the real Mesiah took over in 2012.

This smacks of QB envy; but you are right although in jest. Our QB is better than your QB. No Seahawk fan would trade QBs? Could the same be said of 9er fans?

[HumanCockroach]

You mean right in his hands leading him into the end zone? Yep, right there, what a tool. We aren't talking about some exceedingly high, exceedingly hard finger tip grab, we are talking about a slightly high, slightly hard pass that hit the receiver in the hands. Just happened to watch JV football players make ten times tougher catches last night, matter of fact, and I expect a receiver to make that catch ten out of ten times.JV football player, or pro.

People can attempt to place blame on a QB on EVERY dropped pass if they feel the urge, every single one. There is no VALID excuse for not catching a ball that hits a receiver in the hands, other than, they dropped it or a defensive player making a play to knock it out of their hands. On this play, neither occured.

do we absolve receivers with alligator arms across the middle as well, because of placement now?Lower than their chest? Above their shoulders? Stupid argument.

[burrrton]

Look where the ball was thrown.

We have, Future- it hit Lynch in the hands. Jeezus.

One more time:

"not perfect" != "his fault"

[Futureite]

You mean right in his hands leading him into the end zone? Yep, right there, what a tool. We aren't talking about some exceedingly high, exceedingly hard finger tip grab, we are talking about a slightly high, slightly hard pass that hit the receiver in the hands. Just happened to watch JV football players make ten times tougher catches last night, matter of fact, and I expect a receiver to make that catch ten out of ten times.JV football player, or pro.

People can attempt to place blame on a QB on EVERY dropped pass if they feel the urge, every single one. There is no VALID excuse for not catching a ball that hits a receiver in the hands, other than, they dropped it or a defensive player making a play to knock it out of their hands. On this play, neither occured.

do we absolve receivers with alligator arms across the middle as well, because of placement now?Lower than their chest? Above their shoulders? Stupid argument.

There are also no excuses for a QB's poor ball placement on an open receiver. Except for pressure, WR/QB communication, etc.

Wait. I guess variables do effect each player in different ways. No one ever wants to blame the QB though, because he's already the most scrutinized player on any team.