OT: examining "boderline" #2 recievers

[HumanCockroach]

Boring day, and I simply felt like stirring some chit up. Last year, I went round and round with the resident troll about the viability of Golden Tate ( amongst others) as a receiver, my stance was solidly in the " on a run heavy team, his stats will be mitigated" realm, while said troll, continued to profess that because he had never hit a thousands yards in a season, he was at best a decent #3 receiver, at worst, bench fodder..... well look at what we have now? NO Mega Tron, and who is one of the most productive receivers in the league? None other than Top Pots greatest spokesman Golden Tate......

Granted maybe whomever that was, had the salt in his eyes from left over jock sweat of some QB that deserves no mention in a thread about a truly talented receiver, making his 'eye test' of which we have all heard long and loud professions to it's objective accuracy, but damned if GT doesn't look like a damn shoo in for his first pro bowl visit. 8 games, 800 yards seems damn productive to me personally, especially with an MIA Mega Tron drawing attention away from him ( meaning for those unable to get past said salty eyes, that TATE not Mega Tron is, and HAS been the #1 receiver the last several weeks).

That said, I do question, how productive a guy like Baldwin could be in say..... New England, runs great routes, has excellent hands, a flare for the dramatic, clutch moments and is extremely intelligent. I hope Seattle finds a way to keep him long term, and I see his role expanding as Seattle moves forward, him and Wilson have an uncanny knack for making the play when it absolutely has to made, and that isn't something you can just plug and play moving forward.

[Agent 86]

Boring day, and I simply felt like stirring some chit up. Last year, I went round and round with the resident troll about the viability of Golden Tate ( amongst others) as a receiver, my stance was solidly in the " on a run heavy team, his stats will be mitigated" realm, while said troll, continued to profess that because he had never hit a thousands yards in a season, he was at best a decent #3 receiver, at worst, bench fodder..... well look at what we have now? NO Mega Tron, and who is one of the most productive receivers in the league? None other than Top Pots greatest spokesman Golden Tate......

Granted maybe whomever that was, had the salt in his eyes from left over jock sweat of some QB that deserves no mention in a thread about a truly talented receiver, making his 'eye test' of which we have all heard long and loud professions to it's objective accuracy, but damned if GT doesn't look like a damn shoo in for his first pro bowl visit. 8 games, 800 yards seems damn productive to me personally, especially with an MIA Mega Tron drawing attention away from him ( meaning for those unable to get past said salty eyes, that TATE not Mega Tron is, and HAS been the #1 receiver the last several weeks).

That said, I do question, how productive a guy like Baldwin could be in say..... New England, runs great routes, has excellent hands, a flare for the dramatic, clutch moments and is extremely intelligent. I hope Seattle finds a way to keep him long term, and I see his role expanding as Seattle moves forward, him and Wilson have an uncanny knack for making the play when it absolutely has to made, and that isn't something you can just plug and play moving forward.

Ya know, I was gonna make a post about GT and the season he is having. Sometimes (maybe most?) when a player leaves the 'Hawks, I don't necessarily root for them to do well. But in GT's case, I am so happy for him. He even kind of left on some sour terms regarding the offer the 'Hawks gave him, but the man helped bring a Lombardi to Seattle.

His toughness, his body control(such an underrated skill of his by a lot of people outside this board), his punt return abilities, and his moxie are missed in Seattle. He is a very unique receiver.

But as you mention HCR, he was never going to put up numbers in Seattle like he is in Detroit (probably because the QB is so much better in Detroit...right?..right??...lol) based on the reasons you said.

I loved having GT here, and wish him nothing but the best in Detroit. I think it is awesome what he has done there, especially since Megatron has gone down.

[Futureite]

You may have been right about that one. But then again I do believe Stafford ad one of the (if not the) most pass attempts in a season not long ago. Tate a good guy in space. Still don't think he can line up and just beat good corners one on one consistently, but whatever. He is an athletic guy that is getting the ball in space often, so it isn't really that surprising that he is turnung his opportunities into big yards.

I am actually a lot more realistic about our QB than you are about yours. I put them both in the 12-15 range, just outside of the top or "elite" guys. It infuriorates some of you only because you had him written for the HOF. Your argument is pretty weak dude when he's put up just barely over 100 yds in several games where he had more than enough pass attempts to at least crack 200. Look what Drew Brees just did to that same Carolina D with similar attempts.

Kaep is obviously not there yet either, but as I posted long ago he is in a system and playing for a staff that is challenging him much more from a mental standpoint than what Carroll puts on Wilson. I've held that Kaep's learning curve will be steeper because of that and he'll progress further as a prostyle QB in the longrun. And it's beginning to bear out now.

Kaep looks nothing like the QB he did just 20 games ago in 2012. He has progressed in every faze. In contrast RW looks identical to who he was midway through 2012, and in fact he may even be running more than ever now. You may have been right about Tate. We'll see whose over the top obnoxious yapping (goes for more than just you) about these two players is right moving forward though. I like my odds.

[Anthony]

You may have been right about that one. But then again I do believe Stafford ad one of the (if not the) most pass attempts in a season not long ago. Tate a good guy in space. Still don't think he can line up and just beat good corners one on one consistently, but whatever. He is an athletic guy that is getting the ball in space often, so it isn't really that surprising that he is turnung his opportunities into big yards.

I am actually a lot more realistic about our QB than you are about yours. I put them both in the 12-15 range, just outside of the top or "elite" guys. It infuriorates some of you only because you had him written for the HOF. Your argument is pretty weak dude when he's put up just barely over 100 yds in several games where he had more than enough pass attempts to at least crack 200. Look what Drew Brees just did to that same Carolina D with similar attempts.

Kaep is obviously not there yet either, but as I posted long ago he is in a system and playing for a staff that is challenging him much more from a mental standpoint than what Carroll puts on Wilson. I've held that Kaep's learning curve will be steeper because of that and he'll progress further as a prostyle QB in the longrun. And it's beginning to bear out now.

Kaep looks nothing like the QB he did just 20 games ago in 2012. He has progressed in every faze. In contrast RW looks identical to who he was midway through 2012, and in fact he may even be running more than ever now. You may have been right about Tate. We'll see whose over the top obnoxious yapping (goes for more than just you) about these two players is right moving forward though. I like my odds.

Once again you are clueless, Wilson looked without a doubt like he had progressed. I am also sure if he had Crabtree, Boldin, Davis he would look even better. AS to him running that again is a by product of having a very bad oline not him looking the same.

Now after 7 games last year Wilson had; 1468 yards, 7.05 ypa, 62% complt, 11tds 4 ints, qb rating 91, also 3 games with Qb rating over 100

This year after 7 games Wilson has 1490 yards, 7.2 ypa, 65% complt%, 11tds, 3 ints, qb rating 98, and 4 games with Qb rating over 100 and 1 at 99.9

Hmm more yards, better YPa, better Complt%, same tds, less ints, and better Qb rating

Now lets look at post Harvin and do some number crunching

IF he played without Harvin and his avg numbers were the same as the 2 games he has p0layed without him already his numbers would be

1793 yards, 64% complt%, 7.45 VPA. 112 tds, 3 ints, 104 qb rating

Hmm huge difference, that is what happens when you are told to force feed 1 guy. And again all his numbers are better without a #1 wr, and with 1 of the worse pass blocking olines in the league.

Oh and he has set 2 NFL records as well.

Seems like he had progresses.

Now lets look at Kapp and see if he has progressed

Last year through 7 games
1420 yards, on 182 attemtps 57% complt%, 8 tds, 5 ints, qb rating 89 2 qb ratins over 100
this year 1719 yards, on 224 attempts, 63 comtp%, 11 tds, 5 ints, 94 qb rating 3 qb rating over 100

Hmm so he has more yards but has also thrown more so he has thrown 42 more times base on last years YPA of 7.69 that would give him another 322.98 yards which would have given him 1743 yards which is more than what he has this year, so once again his extra yards is a by product of attempts. He has a much better complt% so he has gotten better there, more tds, but same ints, and QB rating better. So I agree Kap has gotten better, but so has Wilson and the facts prove it, and he is doing it with less offensive weapons around him.

[HumanCockroach]

LMAO. In regards to Luck / Wilson debates the amount of throws made somehow doesn't effect yardage totals, yet here, Staffords pass attempts affects Tates effectiveness.


Go ahead and wait, I like my odds a hell of a lot better than yours, and for some strange reason, my statements, continue to turn up true. I wonder why that is?? I must be exceptionally lucky. SMDH.

[Futureite]

Anthony;

I've got to hand it to you: that is the most unbiased post I have ever seen you make. I am not trying to give you a backhanded compliment, but without looking at the numbers I do know that Kaep had two of the worst games in his entire career back to back at Seattle and home V Indy. And he barely topped 100 yds V Hou a couple weeks later. I'd gave to run those numbers myself to see if I agree, because I am not certain his rating was 89 during a string of games that included those outungs

But let's assume those numbers are correct. We are still running a much higher % of 5 WR sets this yr V last. Kaep has been outstanding from that empty backfield formation. Rams, Cards and Cowboy games are all examples. Even the Bronco game he's got 150+ yds 2 tds by half if Boldin does not drop a walk in TD. For a guy that has been criticized as a "one read" or "running" QB, he looks nothing remotely close to the guy he was in game 2 V the Colts or even game 10 V the Panthers last yr, which was another sub 100 yd passing performance. In every facet he is improving as a progression pocket passer that is always looking to throw, as was noted several times during SNF.

Now, according to PFF, our Oline is one of THE worst pass blocking units in pro football. So I do not buy the logic that Wilson is forced to run. Why? Because our line is horrendous and Kaep is still throwing from behind it rather than running. This is the difference in progression between the two that I see.

As I have noted many times, Wilson grew up in a prostyle O at NC State and then Wisconsin. He was NFL ready,; especially for a run oriented O like Carrol's (very similar to Wisconsin's). In contrast, Kaep came from a gimic O at Nevada where everything from his mechanics to his footwork to reading a D had to be learned (or unlearned). I said that many times:); the learning curve would be steeper than RW's, but once Kaep got it his upside is higher than most QBs. So if you compare each guy to when they came in the league until now, I don't think there is any question Kaep has made much bigger improvements in his game.

I do not believe Harvin stunted RWs stats. That is the 100% opposite if what you guys predicted when you acquired him. Harvin was on an MVP pace with Christian.Ponder, Darel Bevel and AP. That is a mirror image of Seattle's O base, yet he did next to nothing up there. Why? Why did it work with Ponder and not Wilson? The QB has to bear some blame.

At best to me the stats this yr prove these two are even. I've been willing to concede that many times here ir even rate RW higher. But not now. I think Kaep's tradgectory is higher moving foward. I think he is more talented, equally as driven and has a staff that demands much more if him. If you teamed RW with Sean Payton I may feel much differently. With Carroll? I don't believe he will ever be as good as he could be.

[Anthony]

Anthony;

I've got to hand it to you: that is the most unbiased post I have ever seen you make. I am not trying to give you a backhanded compliment, but without looking at the numbers I do know that Kaep had two of the worst games in his entire career back to back at Seattle and home V Indy. And he barely topped 100 yds V Hou a couple weeks later. I'd gave to run those numbers myself to see if I agree, because I am not certain his rating was 89 during a string of games that included those outungs

But let's assume those numbers are correct. We are still running a much higher % of 5 WR sets this yr V last. Kaep has been outstanding from that empty backfield formation. Rams, Cards and Cowboy games are all examples. Even the Bronco game he's got 150+ yds 2 tds by half if Boldin does not drop a walk in TD. For a guy that has been criticized as a "one read" or "running" QB, he looks nothing remotely close to the guy he was in game 2 V the Colts or even game 10 V the Panthers last yr, which was another sub 100 yd passing performance. In every facet he is improving as a progression pocket passer that is always looking to throw, as was noted several times during SNF.

Now, according to PFF, our Oline is one of THE worst pass blocking units in pro football. So I do not buy the logic that Wilson is forced to run. Why? Because our line is horrendous and Kaep is still throwing from behind it rather than running. This is the difference in progression between the two that I see.

As I have noted many times, Wilson grew up in a prostyle O at NC State and then Wisconsin. He was NFL ready,; especially for a run oriented O like Carrol's (very similar to Wisconsin's). In contrast, Kaep came from a gimic O at Nevada where everything from his mechanics to his footwork to reading a D had to be learned (or unlearned). I said that many times:); the learning curve would be steeper than RW's, but once Kaep got it his upside is higher than most QBs. So if you compare each guy to when they came in the league until now, I don't think there is any question Kaep has made much bigger improvements in his game.

I do not believe Harvin stunted RWs stats. That is the 100% opposite if what you guys predicted when you acquired him. Harvin was on an MVP pace with Christian.Ponder, Darel Bevel and AP. That is a mirror image of Seattle's O base, yet he did next to nothing up there. Why? Why did it work with Ponder and not Wilson? The QB has to bear some blame.

At best to me the stats this yr prove these two are even. I've been willing to concede that many times here ir even rate RW higher. But not now. I think Kaep's tradgectory is higher moving foward. I think he is more talented, equally as driven and has a staff that demands much more if him. If you teamed RW with Sean Payton I may feel much differently. With Carroll? I don't believe he will ever be as good as he could be.

Dude as usual you come with nothing, except you love to spin things, or lie to help your cause, Yes he was on a MVP pace with Ponder in a different system moron. As to you thinking Kap is higher than Wilson counting you that would be 1 person. You put Kap on the Hawks we are 2-5 at best. Why Kap has way more talent around him on offense than Wilson. One of many facts I stated that as usual you ignored because it does not help you case. Of course the excuses for Kap are mind boggling though and yet to date Wilson has had the better career. The stats this year do not prove they are even, as I proved already, so again lies and BS but keep it up your trolling is actually getting funnier. AS to your o-lei being one of the worse yes it is so is ours, but as I proved you have better WRs that is the difference. Then add to the fact you are running 5 Wr sets, which is god for you and also means with your WR someone is open all the time. We do not run many of those as we are not that deep and our oline is bad and PC does not run that style of offense. In the end all the stats in the world mean little you need to score to win and not turn the ball over and as I pointed out Wilson is superior to Kap despite all the help he has. The only thing you said I might agree with is about PC, however that may change. However as of now it doe snot matter as the facts and stats show Wilson is better than Kap and has progressed and you are full of crap as most TROLLS are.

[mykc14]

Anthony;

I've got to hand it to you: that is the most unbiased post I have ever seen you make. I am not trying to give you a backhanded compliment, but without looking at the numbers I do know that Kaep had two of the worst games in his entire career back to back at Seattle and home V Indy. And he barely topped 100 yds V Hou a couple weeks later. I'd gave to run those numbers myself to see if I agree, because I am not certain his rating was 89 during a string of games that included those outungs

But let's assume those numbers are correct. We are still running a much higher % of 5 WR sets this yr V last. Kaep has been outstanding from that empty backfield formation. Rams, Cards and Cowboy games are all examples. Even the Bronco game he's got 150+ yds 2 tds by half if Boldin does not drop a walk in TD. For a guy that has been criticized as a "one read" or "running" QB, he looks nothing remotely close to the guy he was in game 2 V the Colts or even game 10 V the Panthers last yr, which was another sub 100 yd passing performance. In every facet he is improving as a progression pocket passer that is always looking to throw, as was noted several times during SNF.

Now, according to PFF, our Oline is one of THE worst pass blocking units in pro football. So I do not buy the logic that Wilson is forced to run. Why? Because our line is horrendous and Kaep is still throwing from behind it rather than running. This is the difference in progression between the two that I see.

As I have noted many times, Wilson grew up in a prostyle O at NC State and then Wisconsin. He was NFL ready,; especially for a run oriented O like Carrol's (very similar to Wisconsin's). In contrast, Kaep came from a gimic O at Nevada where everything from his mechanics to his footwork to reading a D had to be learned (or unlearned). I said that many times:); the learning curve would be steeper than RW's, but once Kaep got it his upside is higher than most QBs. So if you compare each guy to when they came in the league until now, I don't think there is any question Kaep has made much bigger improvements in his game.

I do not believe Harvin stunted RWs stats. That is the 100% opposite if what you guys predicted when you acquired him. Harvin was on an MVP pace with Christian.Ponder, Darel Bevel and AP. That is a mirror image of Seattle's O base, yet he did next to nothing up there. Why? Why did it work with Ponder and not Wilson? The QB has to bear some blame.

At best to me the stats this yr prove these two are even. I've been willing to concede that many times here ir even rate RW higher. But not now. I think Kaep's tradgectory is higher moving foward. I think he is more talented, equally as driven and has a staff that demands much more if him. If you teamed RW with Sean Payton I may feel much differently. With Carroll? I don't believe he will ever be as good as he could be.

My gosh! What great points you are making. I am ready to give up on RW. Kaep is obviously better, no not based on stats, but because Harvin did better with Ponder at QB, what an outstanding point. Lets not look at what RW did before and after Harvin, but rather lets look at how bad the O was with Harvin. TD records, Wins records, QBR records, SB Wins, etc... these mean nothing compared to the Harvin argument. This totally reminds me of that one Cowboy troll, crap can't remember his name cowboy returned or something. Anyway it reminds me of when he said the Hawks were going to be like the Rams during the 80's when they would always be like the second best team in the NFL but they had to play in the same division with the niners and would never have HFA in the playoffs and always lose to them. He predicted the same fait for our Hawks, last offseason and then we went on to win the SB, LOL. Future reminds me of him because he was trying to convince us, Hawks fans on a Hawk fan chatroom to just give up on the idea of the Hawks winning the SB and now future is trying to get us to lower our view of our record breaking, SB winning QB, not because of some actual regression or something statistical but because of the percy Harvin/Ponder arument. That is actually pretty funny argument, hopfully tongue n cheek, because if it is an actual argument its pretty f-in stupid. Lets look at the Stevie Johnson's stats when he had Fitzpatrik at QB vs. Kaep. Wow that must, in some stupid way, prove Kaep isn't very good. But not the same O coordinator so that makes a big difference... no wait still stupid. I sometimes wonder if he really thinks he is as smart as the tone of his posts sound becuase the stupid crap that flows from his keyboard is just so bad. Ah, thanks for the laugh Future, and your prediction has about the same chance of being correct as Cowboys did last year. At the same time I don't think anybody here would care if you went the same way as Cowboy, away.

[mykc14]

Boring day, and I simply felt like stirring some chit up. Last year, I went round and round with the resident troll about the viability of Golden Tate ( amongst others) as a receiver, my stance was solidly in the " on a run heavy team, his stats will be mitigated" realm, while said troll, continued to profess that because he had never hit a thousands yards in a season, he was at best a decent #3 receiver, at worst, bench fodder..... well look at what we have now? NO Mega Tron, and who is one of the most productive receivers in the league? None other than Top Pots greatest spokesman Golden Tate......

Granted maybe whomever that was, had the salt in his eyes from left over jock sweat of some QB that deserves no mention in a thread about a truly talented receiver, making his 'eye test' of which we have all heard long and loud professions to it's objective accuracy, but damned if GT doesn't look like a damn shoo in for his first pro bowl visit. 8 games, 800 yards seems damn productive to me personally, especially with an MIA Mega Tron drawing attention away from him ( meaning for those unable to get past said salty eyes, that TATE not Mega Tron is, and HAS been the #1 receiver the last several weeks).

That said, I do question, how productive a guy like Baldwin could be in say..... New England, runs great routes, has excellent hands, a flare for the dramatic, clutch moments and is extremely intelligent. I hope Seattle finds a way to keep him long term, and I see his role expanding as Seattle moves forward, him and Wilson have an uncanny knack for making the play when it absolutely has to made, and that isn't something you can just plug and play moving forward.

This last paragraph is pretty interesting. IMO, he would do very well in a pass happy offense with a good QB out of the slot. He has a knack for making a big play and knows how to move the chains. I also hope we are able to keep him and Russ together for a long time.

[NorthHawk]

I think Baldwin would be great with Brady. He's the type of receiver they like with his precise routes, great hands, and fearless across the middle. He would also do will in Manning's Offense with his demands of consistency. He could be a better Wes Welker in those Offenses in my opinion.

[Futureite]

Myckc 14;

The point about Harvin had no validity? How about Tate? If I was wrong about Tate - and it appears I was - what does that say that TWO separate receivers have had monster yrs away from Seattle? So he's had two top producing WRs, every yr you guys are telling me how good your WR corp is (even without those two), and when it doesn't pan out to the predictions that I read here, then he's got no weapons.

In the offseason you posted he was going to carry your team, he had a 70+ completion % in the preaeason, our O was horrendous and we were going to implode. None of that happened and if you guys want to split statistical hairs and lay claim to RW's superiority again this yr, be my guest.

First shoot your mouth off and call someone a troll that calls you to the carpet on it. If you open your eyes your team is also 4-3 and no matter how you spin it, your guy has also had his share of s*** games. At least as many as ours.

[HumanCockroach]

Double post.

[HumanCockroach]

The point about Harvin had no validity? How about Tate? If I was wrong about Tate - and it appears I was - what does that say that TWO separate receivers have had monster yrs away from Seattle

That Seattle runs a run heavy, low risk passing game offense, and has for years. That the talent of Seattles receivers is greater than you have been willing to admit, and you simply aren't smart enough to grasp that concept for a couple seasons now?

[mykc14]

Myckc 14;

The point about Harvin had no validity? How about Tate? If I was wrong about Tate - and it appears I was - what does that say that TWO separate receivers have had monster yrs away from Seattle? So he's had two top producing WRs, every yr you guys are telling me how good your WR corp is (even without those two), and when it doesn't pan out to the predictions that I read here, then he's got no weapons.

In the offseason you posted he was going to carry your team, he had a 70+ completion % in the preaeason, our O was horrendous and we were going to implode. None of that happened and if you guys want to split statistical hairs and lay claim to RW's superiority again this yr, be my guest.

First shoot your mouth off and call someone a troll that calls you to the carpet on it. If you open your eyes your team is also 4-3 and no matter how you spin it, your guy has also had his share of s*** games. At least as many as ours.

LOL! Wow, calm down. Know who your talking to before you start spouting crap. I never said anythying negative about the niners, in fact I continually have stated how I feel they are our biggest threat to repeating. So go ahead and keep 'calling me to the carpet on it.' I have continually talked about how much better RW is than Kaep and nothing has changed this year to change that. In fact most of what you say I said I actually never said so if you ae going to respond to me specifically at least know what I said or just actually respond to what I said in my post. Another great point, Tate. Don't look at type of offense or anything, LOL

[HumanCockroach]

Nothing new, it is simply how he rolls. He's been called on the "putting words in posters mouths" many, MANY times, he won't appologise, and he won't even acknowledge he did it ( though he may very well here as he might figure out who you are and what you are to this board) he's done it to a lot of us here, and he does it in almost every thread at some point, whether it be a single poster he lies about what they said, or the entire board and what they are claiming. It's a "go to jab" that he quickly distances himself from.

[Zorn76]

If we had something resembling a solid OL for pass protection, and implemented a pass 1st offense for RW, he'd do a damn good job of augmenting his own stats, along with those of any WR on this team.