I'd trade Russell Wilson for Andrew Luck.

[Anthony]

"One more time
Luck ha sa very good oline and has shown when his oline has issue she throws ints and makes mistakes. He also has a very very good WR corps, something we do not. Luck ahs shown when his Wr corps had injuries and were nto as good for a time he again threw ints and played bad. IN other words we have seen Rw excel with way less talent, and we have seen Luck excel with way more talent. However we have seen Luck fail with less talent as well. So it is easy to say Luck would struggle here bases on his history of playing bad with less talent. Meanwhile give Rw was able to excel with less talent it is very easy to see him excelling even more with more talent. Its pretty simple logic. One Rw has shown eh can do with with less, so doing it with more is a given, The other Luck has shown when having more he excels but when having less he does not, so being here with less he would not.

check this out

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/11/6/716 ... elp-bandit

Enough said Luck would fail here miserably, however given Rws performance with this lack of talent, it is easy to conclude he would flourish in Indy with that oline, wr corps, and pass happy system"


Luck plays in a higher risk Offense. His turnovers are going to be more than Wilson. He's also asked to win the games himself, while Seattle is based on Defense and getting either a turnover or the ball in good field position, then not make mistakes once we have a lead. It's probably why we don't have the weapons or OL that Indy has as that capital has been spent on the other side of the ball.

Luck doesn't have the escapability that Russ has, true but Luck has the ability to make plays with players all over him much like a more mobile Roethlisberger.
They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think it's folly to say one is better than the other because of stats. You really have to see each other play for a while in their systems to make a valid comparison.

Asked to win games himself, why he doe snot have HOW wr, or another top 10 wr making plays for him unlike Wilson. He doe snot have a top 10 pass blocking oline giving him time, unlike Wilson. His avg field position has been the 28 our the 31st not a huge difference. These are all non factual excuses for Luck that are not true. Luck has more help around him than Wilson does that is a fact. So again yes you can say based on these facts that Luck would struggle here and RW would do well there. But the excuses for luck are just wrong.

[Anthony]

There are indeed a lot of variables, and when comparing players it is difficult to adjust production to suit. However, there ARE things that you can look at both in statistics ( for instance Lucks horrid postseason and primetime performances against solid competition) and competition that should help you come to an educated hypothesis, and people using "eye tests" based solely on "good" performances aren't doing that. If I were to do that based on "bad" performances ( say every playoff game and quarter save 1/2 against KC's backups) I could say with 100% conviction, that Luck is one of the worst QB's in the NFL based on same said "eye test".

IMHO some people buy the media polish job hook , line and sinker, and some, look deeper, pay greater attention, and investigating stats, and more importantly WHAT those stats mean. There is simply no denying that the offensive weapons handed to Luck the DAY he arrived in INDY trumps what Wilson has really ever had in Seattle ( barring an eight game stint with Harvin). That just really isn't debateable to anyone that scratches more than the 4-12 record away to look. Lucks offensive line has been better, and healthier since the day he arrived, again not debateable, The defense while not what Seattle currently boasts, WAS on par with what Seattle boasted the day he showed up ( again really not debateable) competition less, and performance below Wilson. How in the world can someone claim Luck is better, with more, while Wilson wins SB with less is beyond me.

Exactly

[NorthHawk]

I don't believe you can say a QB that is in a higher risk Offense cannot change when his marching orders are now protect the ball first.
It looks to me like their coaches have said to Luck something like 'Go out there and score points. We know you'll have turnovers, but we think you can overcome them to win more than lose.'
Compare that to Carroll who wants the Offense to be far more conservative and protect the ball as a priority.
That makes judging the two very difficult and is just one of the variables when trying to imagine them on each others team.

[HumanCockroach]

????

How can you say a QB can adjust that way with anything remotely close to accuracy?? this entire thread you are using an "eye test" and calling it fact North, you have backed up nothing with anything factual ( or in some cases accurate) to support your position, and everything is based on assumptions, opinion and guess work.

Luck is a fine young QB, however, plainly put, his performance, with more opportunities, better offensive talent hasn't equalled the success Wilson has either in on field success OR statistical production, so how in the world do you get to Luck is better?? Or even equivalent?? Simply no real evidence to support that position, in any remotely tangible way.

The argument for revolves around a half arse argument about the previous seasons record, and a bunch of ESPN highlights of a comeback ( one he usually has to provide because of his horrible play earlier in the game I should point out nine out of ten times), there is plenty of actual solid information in which to base an opinion on, plenty of statistical production numbers, numerous pressure packed primetime and playoff games to pull out, a general knowledge of the competition of the two divisions and quality of defenses within said divisions, and yet somehow, it ALWAYS makes it back to the "eye test" for those asserting even an on par performance for Luck. Why? Well because that isn't something that needs to be BACKED up with actual facts, or truths, or knowledge.

I expect that stuff from a certain someone, just don't expect it from you.

Luck may indeed be the new "Manning", I'll happily take the new "Brady" for the next ten to fifteen years, and laugh at those insisting his regular season performance makes him better. ( and to be clear here, to date, Luck fails miserably in that regard as well. Yards are nice and all, but ultimately they don't mean much of anything, when tempered with turnovers).

[monkey]

We will/can never, ever know what the two QB's would or would not do on each others teams. This is an exercise in futility, it is pure speculative nonsense...why even bring it up or discuss it?

The ONLY things that can reasonably be discussed in such a debate of who is greater than who, are statistics. That is all.
Everything else is speculative conjecture, not based at all in logic.
If a thing cannot be proven one way or another by using pre-agreed upon facts, (statistics), then why debate it?

[burrrton]

In order to use an "apples to apples" comparison they would have to play on the same Offense against the same teams with the same weather and more.

No, because we're not trying to decide who's better on such a specific level- we're only trying to decide (or argue about) who's been a better "NFL QB", and all you need for a fair evaluation of that is for both of them to play in the NFL (assuming large enough sample size).

As it is, there are far too many variables to make statistics valid

Only to people who want an "eye test" to outweigh actual performance.

[NorthHawk]

If you believe your stats, then this year Luck is better than Russ and in some ways much better.

Luck 63.6% Completion vs 62.8 even though Luck has thrown 150 more passes. (Rank 15 vs 17)
Luck 7.85 yds per completion vs 5.9 (Rank 9 vs 25)
Luck 100.3 QBR vs 93.1 (Rank 8 vs 16)
Luck 26 TDs vs 11 (Rank 1 vs 20)
Luck 9 INTs vs 3 (Rank 5 vs 33) - one of the few stats this year if favor of Russ

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... ompletions

It would seem that Luck is developing into a significantly better QB than Russ - if you believe your stats.
However, it's a team game and that's where the statistics can really lead you astray.
How do you measure leadership, desire, calm under pressure, or other intangibles? These are big parts of QB play, but that can't be statistically measured.
How do you compare opponents and weather when the stats were being built? Luck plays in a dome for 8 games - should that be a factor? How do you measure it?

So what's left? History - perhaps but you want to see young QBs continue to improve statistically.
Surrounding cast - sure, but how can you evaluate how much the QB improves those around him?
In Lucks case he has Reggie Wayne who played for both Manning and Luck. His career stats are similar to when Manning was the QB.
Take what you will from that, but little letup from one of the best QBs to a developing QB is probably a good omen for Luck.

I'm not a big statistics believer because there are too many variables.
In some of the stats above players like Cutler, Davis, and Tannehill are statistically better. In the important ones, Kaepernick is better in all.
Do you really believe that they are better QBs than Wilson? If you believe the stats are an accurate reflection of performance then you must.
And if you do believe that the Stats tell the story then this year the discussion is over - Luck is a better QB than Russ - and in some statistics far better.

Believe that if you wish, but I don't, because Stats in a QBs case can't begin to tell the whole story and can lead you astray.

[mykc14]

If you believe your stats, then this year Luck is better than Russ and in some ways much better.

Luck 63.6% Completion vs 62.8 even though Luck has thrown 150 more passes. (Rank 15 vs 17)
Luck 7.85 yds per completion vs 5.9 (Rank 9 vs 25)
Luck 100.3 QBR vs 93.1 (Rank 8 vs 16)
Luck 26 TDs vs 11 (Rank 1 vs 20)
Luck 9 INTs vs 3 (Rank 5 vs 33) - one of the few stats this year if favor of Russ

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/playe ... ompletions

It would seem that Luck is developing into a significantly better QB than Russ - if you believe your stats.
However, it's a team game and that's where the statistics can really lead you astray.
How do you measure leadership, desire, calm under pressure, or other intangibles? These are big parts of QB play, but that can't be statistically measured.
How do you compare opponents and weather when the stats were being built? Luck plays in a dome for 8 games - should that be a factor? How do you measure it?

So what's left? History - perhaps but you want to see young QBs continue to improve statistically.
Surrounding cast - sure, but how can you evaluate how much the QB improves those around him?
In Lucks case he has Reggie Wayne who played for both Manning and Luck. His career stats are similar to when Manning was the QB.
Take what you will from that, but little letup from one of the best QBs to a developing QB is probably a good omen for Luck.

I'm not a big statistics believer because there are too many variables.
In some of the stats above players like Cutler, Davis, and Tannehill are statistically better. In the important ones, Kaepernick is better in all.
Do you really believe that they are better QBs than Wilson? If you believe the stats are an accurate reflection of performance then you must.
And if you do believe that the Stats tell the story then this year the discussion is over - Luck is a better QB than Russ - and in some statistics far better.

Believe that if you wish, but I don't, because Stats in a QBs case can't begin to tell the whole story and can lead you astray.

Nobody is saying Luck isn't having a statistically better year than Russ. What we are saying is that statistically in their careers Russ has clearly been better. You are saying that this 8 game stretch is proof that Luck's arc is still going up while RW's is going going down or staying stagnant, thus leading to the conclusion that Luck is better than RW. Most, on the contrary, are arguing that these 8 games are nothing more than an outliner (RW playing poorly, while Luck is playing exceptianlly well). Furthermore, looking at the current injuries RW has had to deal with shows why he might be struggling so much. Lastly, most are willing to say that in the future Luck may very well be better than RW, but he isn't there yet, given historical statstics, playoff performance, SB win, offensive firepower, and current injury situation.

[c_hawkbob]

Not "if you believe your stats", more like if you accept that the first half of this year's stats are defining and the balance of stats for their careers are irrelevant.

[burrrton]

Not "if you believe your stats", more like if you accept that the first half of this year's stats are defining and the balance of stats for their careers are irrelevant.

What Bob said. If he's getting better, good on him- I've said many times I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up the better QB.

The point is that RW has simply been better, period, and Luck having a marginally better first half of their third years in the league doesn't negate that.

[Anthony]

What Bob said. If he's getting better, good on him- I've said many times I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up the better QB.

The point is that RW has simply been better, period, and Luck having a marginally better first half of their third years in the league doesn't negate that.

Given how much more talent Luck has a round him it would be a minor miracle f he did not improve. Given how little talent Wilson has around him it would be a minor miracle if he did not look stagnant. There is a huge gap between the offensive talent around Luck and around Wilson, and Luck is benefitting from it. Hopefully the FO will work to improve the talent around Wilson. All that said this is the first year were Luck looks better than Wilson, however that can be attributed to the superior talent as much as to Luck.

[burrrton]

There is a huge gap between the offensive talent around Luck and around Wilson, and Luck is benefitting from it.

Tend to agree, especially with the M.A.S.H. unit our roster is right now.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Who cares if LTF and NH have decided that they are going to root for Andrew Luck and therefore the Colts from now on, REAL Seahawk fans don't need them. To some, winning the Championship just wasn't enough. Too bad, I never took those two for fair weather fans, but, by their own words they have pledged allegiance to the QB of another team.

[Futureite]

Props on your thread. I'd trade Kap for him too without blinking. He is on pace for 6,000 yds and over 50 TDs. nd he us doing it with guys that are fairly talented, but not upper level. He is obviously a HOF caliber QB. Once in a generation. Everything from his brain to his arm to his vision is just amazing.

I am obviously a big Luck fan. I just admire the way he plays. I and prob 31 other fanbases wish we had him, as young as he is.

[Seahawks4Ever]

oops, wrong thread!

[burrrton]

he us doing it with guys that are fairly talented, but not upper level.

Hilton, Nicks, and Wayne? That's not "upper level"??

[Anthony]

Hilton, Nicks, and Wayne? That's not "upper level"??

It is but you need to understand the source, Future needs to be right as d a few others so being less than truthful is their best chance.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Hilton is a pro bowl player who seems destined for greatness
Hakeem Nicks I believe was a SB MVP, if not he should have been
Reggie Wayne is on his way to the HoF

Yeah, Luck plays with a bunch of no talent bums and has to carry the team on his back. No, I am NOT buying what you are trying to sell. You can rationalize trashing our SB winning QB all you want since it is a free country and you have that right.

[burrrton]

Something else that's funny:

Russell just had another rough game statistically, and he *still* had a better completion percentage than Luck did this week (in what was considered a spectacular game for him).

I'm spouting this before running the numbers, but I think it's safe to say if Russell threw as much as Luck does, to a similarly talented group, with a similar O-line, there is literally *no* argument that you couldn't expect him to blow Luck's numbers away.

[monkey]

Reggie Wayne = not upper level? When did that happen??? He may be on his last legs, but he's a future hall of fame player and a cagey, wily vet.
T.Y. Hilton = not upper level??? Now that's just plain stupid! Hilton is the guy we Seahawks fans just HOPE that Paul Richardson can someday play like. Dude's super stud.

Trolls, LOL! Gotta love their ridiculous attempts at trolling via extreme exaggeration.

[monkey]

I'm spouting this before running the numbers, but I think it's safe to say if Russell threw as much as Luck does, to a similarly talented group, with a similar O-line, there is literally *no* argument that you couldn't expect him to blow Luck's numbers away.

Those numbers would just get dismissed by idiots and or trolls like Futureite who see what they want to see, rather than what the FACTS actually tell them.

[Futureite]

Since I am the resident "troll", I guess I am free to say exactly what I feel at this point.

Enough with the "stats" argument. 50 TDs has been done twice in NFL history, and Luck is on pace to do it. There is mo way to talk around it or chalk it up to volume, good players around him, etc. If you throw 50 TDs in a season, you are an MVP QB. Period end of discussion on that issue.

As far as intangibles; Luck is the smartest NFL QB in football terms amongst the young QBs by a good margin. He diagnoses, reads and hits multiple receivers quicker than anyone in his class. His resume includes all of the comeback wins, the bigime throws.

Next, this idea of one QB having some innate ability to play safe better represents the last gasp for some of you to keep this dead debate alive. Alex freaking Smith learned to do this for god sakes. It can be learned. 50 TDs cannot. Ever.

Last, weapons? Sydney Rice waa a weapon with Bevel and a pocket QB. Harvin was a weapon with Bevel. Adrian Petersin = Marshawn Lynch. SAME O. SAME OC. Each receiver had far different results in Seattle V Munn. Golden Tate niw looks like Jerry Rice. Doesn't this tell some of you at least something? Wayne is a 35 yr old receiver coming off of kneee surgery. If I am not mistaken, Nicks has had 1 career 1,000 yd season and coming off achilles surgery. Fleener is average. Hilton 'may' be an elite slot guy. Luck is making them ALL look great. Just like Peyton and Brady do. Wilson had good reveivers looking average. Trolling or truth??

I don't understand the desire to make Wilson better than Luck. He is not and never will be. But he was good enough to win a SB the way Seattle is built. I'd gladly admit Luck is better than Kap as long as we win the SB as well. This argument is fading into history with each game.

[Long Time Fan]

F's entre' is my cue to exit this thread. I think that F's participation on this forum poisons the water for tolerance for dissenting opinions and maybe that what effected this thread.

This actually turned into a decent discussion when a little bit of objectivity nudged subjectivity. Of course not without fanhood being called into question, this is after all, the internet, as someone reminded.

It is great to finally have a franchise QB for the Seahawks. I will happily ride with RW for years to come. There are other talented QBs out there as well. A few of the young guns will win championships for their teams. Part of what makes watching the NFL fun is seeing the evolution of players. Some fail their projections and others surpass their own hopes. By year three in a QB's career, typically, we can see who are the hits and who are the misses. RW and AL are both hits; if they were free agents or re-draftable then it would make for a healthy debate.

Thanks for the discussion, no hard feelings.

[burrrton]

I don't understand the desire to make Wilson better than Luck. He is not and never will be.

I don't understand your obsession with insisting Luck has been better than Wilson. He never was before this year (and I think even just the last few games?).

Luck is indeed having a good season, and Wilson is not*. But save the "THIS CAN'T BE EXPLAINED BY VOLUME" bullsh*t, Future. I haven't checked the stats that closely this year (because our passing offense isn't terribly good this year), but if RW owns Luck in completion %, YPC, TD%, etc, and he did before the shambles of this year, "VOLUME" *is* the only reasonable explanation.

We all get that you've apparently transferred your hard-on over Sherman to Wilson now that he's having a rougher go of it, but take it somewhere else unless you want to start making some sense.

*Funny thing is: even with Luck ascending to the top of Olympus (or whatever Future imagines when he touches himself) and our passing offense being a mess, he's *still* only like a percentage point better in completion %.

[NorthHawk]

Who cares if LTF and NH have decided that they are going to root for Andrew Luck and therefore the Colts from now on, REAL Seahawk fans don't need them. To some, winning the Championship just wasn't enough. Too bad, I never took those two for fair weather fans, but, by their own words they have pledged allegiance to the QB of another team.

Who said I think Luck is better and I'm rooting for him? Please point out where I said that.
What I did say was if you believe in statistics Luck is getting better and you can't compare them very well as the statistics in this case aren't as valid as they may appear.

Consider:
Pete has said a number of times the QB in his Offense is like a Point Guard who makes the correct decision when and where to dish off the ball.
To extend the metaphor, Russ is like a Steve Nash at QB where he occasionally shoots or drives for the layup when it's the best option, while Luck is a player who's responsibility is to shoot from all angles and win the game largely by his shooting ability.
How can you make a fair comparison on a stat by stat basis? Who is more valuable or the better player?

I think they are two great young QBs who have fantastic futures ahead of them. I also believe they could play in each others systems pretty well, but I do not believe that statistics can be used for comparison purposes. I'm happy we have Russ. He's probably the perfect QB for our system, but stats don't tell how valuable he is within this system as the things that matter most can't be boiled down to numbers.

[BelizeHawk]

It is really very simple. RW and Luck have had two of the best starts for young QBs in the history of the NFL. It is legitimately up for grabs who was better over their first 2 years. I personally would put what RW did over what Luck did over those first 2 years because I think the things that RW was better at were more important than the things Luck was better at.
Clearly, for whatever reasons, Luck has been a much better passer than RW this year. That gap closes significantly when you take into account RW's ground game.
I don't know why RW is struggling this year. I think talent, both o-line and receivers, has a lot to do with it, but where RW was as accurate as anyone in his first two years he has been way off this year and that can't all be chalked up to a dearth of talent.
One thing I've noticed is RW does not look like he is having much fun this year. He has never been one to show much emotion but standing on the sideline, helmet off, he always had a little glint in his eyes that said "Man, this is the life!" Most sideline shots of him this year look as if RW is thinking "God, when is this going to be over." He looks downright depressed at times.
I don't know, I'm probably wrong, but whether its football related or social (the man is recently divorced) he just doesn't look as happy out there.
Maybe his whole "No time to sleep." thing is catching up with him. RW take a nap!

[Seahawks4Ever]

I want to appoligize to North Hawk and Long Time Fan for saying that you two may as well become Colts fans. That was out of line by me and like I said, I am sorry I made those stupid remarks.

That said, in the long run it don't matter if Luck is better than Wilson (or vice versa) because he is NEVER going to play for the Seahawks and the Colts are never going to trade him unless it is a Peyton Manning type situation or worse, a Carson Palmer type situation where he was battered to pieces.

Russell Wilson is OUR QB and he is a darn good one though he seems to be having his "sophomore slump" a year later than usual.

[Long Time Fan]

I want to appoligize to North Hawk and Long Time Fan for saying that you two may as well become Colts fans.

Anyone can make a mistake, it takes a person strong of character to reverse it. You are a gentleman. No worries.

[obiken]

Its just crazy that a what if thread has gone on this long. IMHO.

[HumanCockroach]

Since I am the resident "troll", I guess I am free to say exactly what I feel at this point.

Enough with the "stats" argument. 50 TDs has been done twice in NFL history, and Luck is on pace to do it. There is mo way to talk around it or chalk it up to volume, good players around him, etc. If you throw 50 TDs in a season, you are an MVP QB. Period end of discussion on that issue.

As far as intangibles; Luck is the smartest NFL QB in football terms amongst the young QBs by a good margin. He diagnoses, reads and hits multiple receivers quicker than anyone in his class. His resume includes all of the comeback wins, the bigime throws.

Next, this idea of one QB having some innate ability to play safe better represents the last gasp for some of you to keep this dead debate alive. Alex freaking Smith learned to do this for god sakes. It can be learned. 50 TDs cannot. Ever.

Last, weapons? Sydney Rice waa a weapon with Bevel and a pocket QB. Harvin was a weapon with Bevel. Adrian Petersin = Marshawn Lynch. SAME O. SAME OC. Each receiver had far different results in Seattle V Munn. Golden Tate niw looks like Jerry Rice. Doesn't this tell some of you at least something? Wayne is a 35 yr old receiver coming off of kneee surgery. If I am not mistaken, Nicks has had 1 career 1,000 yd season and coming off achilles surgery. Fleener is average. Hilton 'may' be an elite slot guy. Luck is making them ALL look great. Just like Peyton and Brady do. Wilson had good reveivers looking average. Trolling or truth??

I don't understand the desire to make Wilson better than Luck. He is not and never will be. But he was good enough to win a SB the way Seattle is built. I'd gladly admit Luck is better than Kap as long as we win the SB as well. This argument is fading into history with each game.

And using 9 games as a barometer instead of the body of work is the last gasp attempt to validate an erroneous opinion that has been harped on by you over the course of 41 games ( not to mention playoff games) "on pace" doesn't mean sqyat and you know it. If it did, I could have claimed after the St.Louis game that Wilson was "on pace" for 5,000 yards passing and 1,600 yards rushing this year. Stupid.

[NorthHawk]

I want to appoligize to North Hawk and Long Time Fan for saying that you two may as well become Colts fans. That was out of line by me and like I said, I am sorry I made those stupid remarks.

That said, in the long run it don't matter if Luck is better than Wilson (or vice versa) because he is NEVER going to play for the Seahawks and the Colts are never going to trade him unless it is a Peyton Manning type situation or worse, a Carson Palmer type situation where he was battered to pieces.

Russell Wilson is OUR QB and he is a darn good one though he seems to be having his "sophomore slump" a year later than usual.

I can't say I wasn't offended, but I'm as guilty as anyone and have said unwarranted things when I'm passionate about something, so it's all good.
It might be some type of sophomore slump, but in another thread I said I heard Moon say that Wilson is still getting used to the new receivers and I think considering Norwood was injured and they were setting up their Offense for Harvin, neither might have had many reps with Wilson to develop the necessary chemistry.

[Steady_Hawk]

It is really very simple. RW and Luck have had two of the best starts for young QBs in the history of the NFL. It is legitimately up for grabs who was better over their first 2 years. I personally would put what RW did over what Luck did over those first 2 years because I think the things that RW was better at were more important than the things Luck was better at.
Clearly, for whatever reasons, Luck has been a much better passer than RW this year. That gap closes significantly when you take into account RW's ground game.
I don't know why RW is struggling this year. I think talent, both o-line and receivers, has a lot to do with it, but where RW was as accurate as anyone in his first two years he has been way off this year and that can't all be chalked up to a dearth of talent.
One thing I've noticed is RW does not look like he is having much fun this year. He has never been one to show much emotion but standing on the sideline, helmet off, he always had a little glint in his eyes that said "Man, this is the life!" Most sideline shots of him this year look as if RW is thinking "God, when is this going to be over." He looks downright depressed at times.
I don't know, I'm probably wrong, but whether its football related or social (the man is recently divorced) he just doesn't look as happy out there.
Maybe his whole "No time to sleep." thing is catching up with him. RW take a nap!

This is one of the best responses on this subject. I think RW is the most talented QB in the league. I would pick him over anyone else without a hesitation, but there is something wrong with the guy right now. I have spoken with many who will not admit it, but it's staring us right in the face. Yes, our O-Line has sucked some hairy ones and our WR talent is mediocre at best right now, but it's more than that. Either Wilson is hiding an injury that's screwing up his throwing mechanics or the issue lies in his head. Either way, unless the Wilson we know gets back on track our season isn't going to end well. Between his personal life, the locker room issue with Harvin and any other crap being heaped on this young kid we have a problem.

It's easy to forget that Wilson is human, and now he's actually playing like one. This whole idea that Luck would look anything remotely the same with our O-Line and WR's is laughable. Bring him in and watch that 3 year arc crash like a stock market graph of the great depression.

[monkey]

Enough with the "stats" argument.

You'd like that wouldn't you? Sorry, no, you don't get to just throw out stats just because they don't support your stupid opinion.

Since I am the resident "troll"

Glad you are finally admitting it. You know what makes you a troll? The fact that YOU INTENTIONALLY SAY THINGS JUST FOR THE PURPOSE OF STARTING UP ARGUMENTS ON AN ENEMY TEAM'S FAN BLOG!!! That makes you a troll.

I don't understand the desire to make Wilson better than Luck. He is not and never will be.

We're not trying to make Wilson better, he just ACTUALLY has been!
I don't understand how you cannot figure out the difference between OPINION, which is what you just gave, and FACTS which do NOT support your opinion.
You see troll, until this season, the FACTS are that Wilson had CLEARLY BETTER STATS!!!
If you want to just throw out the first three seasons completely, and make your case completely based on just the first half of this season, THEN you have a case, but see...it doesn't work that way.
You don't get to come to an enemy fan blog, and say a bunch of stupid unsupported things, or stupid things supported by cherry picked stats, and not have me call you out on them!

Trolling or truth??

Trolling, clearly. You have been all along.
Your act has grown tired, just go away. Seriously, go away, no one wants you here, or appreciates your stupidity. You are an unwanted nuisance who for some reason cannot accept the fact that spending time on an enemy fan forum makes him a troll.
Get a clue.

[Futureite]

Stupidity is talking down a 50 TD pace. Only 2 guys in the history of the NFL have done it. What you cannot stand is reality. Here I am admitting the QB of my own team is nowhere close to Luck. A QB who by the way - is posting better yds/attempt, completion %, TDs, and QBR than Russell Wilson. Yet I am the troll for asserting that Luck is better than both? OK. Seems like you are far too concerned with winning an argument or defending your guy.

Weapons? Reggie Wayne may be a HOFer, but he is also 35 yrs old coming off knee surgery. Hakeem Nicks as I posted was not even a number 1 on his own team and has 1 career 1,000 yd season. After watching Golden Tate this yr and seeing what Harvin has done in the past (or even two friggin weeks ago with 126 yds), there is no way you get away with discounting the incredible things Luck had done due to "better weapons".

I understand you guys love Wilson. I was just in Seattle two days ago. I get it. It's a small place way up north and your QB was an important piece to your first title. I felt all of that up there. No one is saying he ain't good. Andrew Luck is just great. Hell, he may be the 2nd or 3rd best QB in the NFL now period. No shame in admitting that for you or I.

[Anthony]

Stupidity is talking down a 50 TD pace. Only 2 guys in the history of the NFL have done it. What you cannot stand is reality. Here I am admitting the QB of my own team is nowhere close to Luck. A QB who by the way - is posting better yds/attempt, completion %, TDs, and QBR than Russell Wilson. Yet I am the troll for asserting that Luck is better than both? OK. Seems like you are far too concerned with winning an argument or defending your guy.

Weapons? Reggie Wayne may be a HOFer, but he is also 35 yrs old coming off knee surgery. Hakeem Nicks as I posted was not even a number 1 on his own team and has 1 career 1,000 yd season. After watching Golden Tate this yr and seeing what Harvin has done in the past (or even two friggin weeks ago with 126 yds), there is no way you get away with discounting the incredible things Luck had done due to "better weapons".

I understand you guys love Wilson. I was just in Seattle two days ago. I get it. It's a small place way up north and your QB was an important piece to your first title. I felt all of that up there. No one is saying he ain't good. Andrew Luck is just great. Hell, he may be the 2nd or 3rd best QB in the NFL now period. No shame in admitting that for you or I.

Hmm interesting how you are now downplaying Wayne, Hicks, and of course no mention of TY who is way better than any Wr we have. the fact is ESPN names Indy having a top 10 wr corps, our was ranked with Harvin 18th, without Harvin 28th. Nice try but the facts clearly show Luck has more Wr talent and lets not even talk Oline since one is top 10 the other bottom 10. Andrew luck is not great he is playing great. But for their career Wilson has been and is better and doing it with less, the facts and stats prove it.

[HumanCockroach]

Stupidity is talking down a 50 TD pace. Only 2 guys in the history of the NFL have done it. What you cannot stand is reality. Here I am admitting the QB of my own team is nowhere close to Luck. A QB who by the way - is posting better yds/attempt, completion %, TDs, and QBR than Russell Wilson. Yet I am the troll for asserting that Luck is better than both? OK. Seems like you are far too concerned with winning an argument or defending your guy.

Weapons? Reggie Wayne may be a HOFer, but he is also 35 yrs old coming off knee surgery. Hakeem Nicks as I posted was not even a number 1 on his own team and has 1 career 1,000 yd season. After watching Golden Tate this yr and seeing what Harvin has done in the past (or even two friggin weeks ago with 126 yds), there is no way you get away with discounting the incredible things Luck had done due to "better weapons".

I understand you guys love Wilson. I was just in Seattle two days ago. I get it. It's a small place way up north and your QB was an important piece to your first title. I felt all of that up there. No one is saying he ain't good. Andrew Luck is just great. Hell, he may be the 2nd or 3rd best QB in the NFL now period. No shame in admitting that for you or I.

LOL. Says the guy who continues to ignore the NFL firsts done by Wilson, each and every season he has been in the league ( things like becoming the ONLY QB to EVER do the things he has done in HISTORY, as in the ONLY one, period) but by all means carry on polishing yet another knob. Wilson has DONE the things you continually ignore, to the best of my knowledge "on pace" doesn't equate to actually accomplishing the feat does it?

IF Luck does it, I will have ZERO problems acknowledging it, unlike your inability to do so with Wilson's historic accomplishments.

[Futureite]

Actually, Bucky Brooks on NFL.Com predicted Hawks to have one of NFL's most explosive Os. As did a whole hell of a lot of you on this board...RIGHT? I predicted the same for SF but at least I can recognize it ain't panning out. And the QB always bears a share of the blame for that.

I didn't mention TY because I have no idea how good ge truly is. Was Decker a great WR when he played with Peyton, or is he the guy he is now on the Jets? Same concept. If you say TY would be doing the same in Seattle as he is in Indy, I strongly disagree. Percy Harvin barely cracked 100 yds for the entire yr in Seattle, and you cannot just excuse that all away. Andrew Luck appears to be elevating TY the same way Manning does with Emanuel Sanders and every other receiver he throws to.

The stats prove nothing. The stats show Wilson at 89.9 QBR, 11 tds 5 ints. In what world is that remotely close to Andrew Luck, who bears the entire brunt of the O success and still posts a 100+ QBR and astronomical numbers? RW's numbers are pedestrian by any measure, let aline compared to Luck. And to show I am unbiased, Kap has slightly better numbers than RW across the board but not enough of a difference to show any meaningful edge. In fact, a lot of those numbers could swing the opposite direction in just 1 week.

[Futureite]

HC;

I acknowledge what RW has done. But are we talking now or 2012? As of now, Luck is clearly the man. And I have posted why I thought that would happen numerous times.

Luck plays in a system that puts more on him. He had a much steeper learning curve becauae of that. This is why I predicted he'd separate himself this yr. He has, and RW is still posting 100 yd rushing games and running the read option. You can see a clear difference in both player's matutity from the pocket, footwork, reading of a D. And a LOT of that comes from the experience and maturation of playing in that high pressure "volume" style ball.

So while you were quoting RW's 26 TD 8 int seasons and scrutinizing Luck, I told you one was going to pay lingterm dividends and the other would ebb and flow with the team around him. RW's game us built off of movement, throwing great playaction deep balls and making good decisions. His style is not condusive to carrying a team, and this yr has proved it. You cannot tell me that the Hawks win by 3 tds with him chucking the ball 35 times for 160+ yds 2 ints and 0 tds as a pocket QB. Obviously the difference was his legs, Lynch, and your D. And that's the way it has been in Seattle from day ONE.

In Indy, everything begins and ends with Luck. True, his proficiency may not have been as good as RW's early on, but he stepped on to a far worse team and shouldered far more responsibility from the start. You cannot logically argue otherwise. Now in yr 3 we are seeing the fruits of all that early work and the difference in both QB's play. And it surprises me none.

[HumanCockroach]

Are you thick? NO ONE is saying anything about THIS season specifically ( though Wilson has indeed already set MULTIPLE NFL records this season).... You seem to be having issues understanding the whole entire picture, and continue to hone in on eight games, why ? Could it be because for 32 of the 40 games Wilson's numbers do exactly what we continue to say they do? Which would be that he has been the better player , backed up by stats, records, and historical performances?...

And you STILL cannot acknowledge a thing he has done over the first two and half seasons in the league , WHY would ANYONE sane, continue to do this? Truth is they wouldn't. Unless I suppose they are a troll.

According to YOU all anyone had to do, was ask you to leave this board, you said you would, and would never come back. The last several days I've seen MULTIPLE posters ask you to take a powder, and yet,here you are, continuing to lie, spin and spew your idiotic ramblings ( not in the least surprising).

Keep inhaling the jock sweat of Luck ( Marino) and professing the inferiority of Wilson ( Montana) I could care less, but stop pretending like this eight game stretch somehow magically makes the other 32 games evaporate into thin air, it makes all of us a little bit dumber each time we read it.

[Futureite]

I will also add, as a Niner fan RW does make me nervous. If given time he can hit open guys. And his mobility is a nightmare. He is a heady QB and he is not going to make plays that lose games. So on this team especially, he makes Hawks hard to beat.

But for this debate, I do not belueve D coordinators stay up saying "how do we beat Russell Wilson" other than with respect to his mobility. Ditto for Kap. But the ALL worry about how to beat Andrew Luck. Brian Billik said it best about Luck when he stated "there is no way to gameplan for a pocket QB".