Injury Buggin'

[Hawktawk]

I understand playing the what if game, & why with this player - it is more warranted than most times we do it as Percy is, well.....Percy. Play the what if game the other way and pretend Pete reached him and he was productive. It really could have made us über special.

Hindsight is 20/20 & it's clear we'd be better off w/ McDonald & Tate + the picks at this point. It's really easy to manage a team from the couch & let's not forget we won the super bowl.

Very true sis. Harvin in the long run is a disaster for Seattle I suppose. But last Feb 2nd in New York Denver kicked a pooch to start the second half in the SB and Harvin destroyed the plan with an incredible run. A 22 point lead against a Peyton Manning led team is not safe but 29 was a clincher, a high five moment for Hawks fans and Mannings facial expressions on the sidelines told the whole story.And Harvin was also the leading rusher with 45 yards on 2 carries. Long term it will hurt but what is a Superbowl victory worth?

[RiverDog]

Very true sis. Harvin in the long run is a disaster for Seattle I suppose. But last Feb 2nd in New York Denver kicked a pooch to start the second half in the SB and Harvin destroyed the plan with an incredible run. A 22 point lead against a Peyton Manning led team is not safe but 29 was a clincher, a high five moment for Hawks fans and Mannings facial expressions on the sidelines told the whole story.And Harvin was also the leading rusher with 45 yards on 2 carries. Long term it will hurt but what is a Superbowl victory worth?

The fact is that Harvin contributed next to nothing to us getting to the Super Bowl and that the game itself was so lopsided that the absence of any single individual involved in it, whether that person was Russell Wilson, Earl Thomas, Pete Carroll, or Percy Harvin, would not have changed the ultimate outcome. We were going to win that game no matter what.

Percy Harvin played in 6 regular season games and 2 playoff games for us. For that, we paid a #1, a #3, a #7, and devoted resources we could have used to re-sign someone like Golden Tate that busted his azz for us. That doesn't even speak to the insubordinate acts, the locker room fights, and general turmoil he caused on our team, something that can't be quantified. I would have much rather waited another 5 minutes for that high five moment and Manning expression and kept all those draft picks plus one or two of our FA's than have to be traveling the trail of ruin that frigging jerk left in his wake. It's no different than getting drunk and having a wild night of sex with a porn star then waking up the next morning with a splitting headache, a STD, your wallet missing, and your wife filing for divorce.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="RiverDog
The fact is that Harvin contributed next to nothing to us getting to the Super Bowl and that the game itself was so lopsided that the absence of any single individual involved in it, whether that person was Russell Wilson, Earl Thomas, Pete Carroll, or Percy Harvin, would not have changed the ultimate outcome. We were going to win that game no matter what.

Percy Harvin played in 6 regular season games and 2 playoff games for us. For that, we paid a #1, a #3, a #7, and devoted resources we could have used to re-sign someone like Golden Tate that busted his azz for us. That doesn't even speak to the insubordinate acts, the locker room fights, and general turmoil he caused on our team, something that can't be quantified. I would have much rather waited another 5 minutes for that high five moment and Manning expression and kept all those draft picks plus one or two of our FA's than have to be traveling the trail of ruin that frigging jerk left in his wake. It's no different than getting drunk and having a wild night of sex with a porn star then waking up the next morning with a splitting headache, a STD, your wallet missing, and your wife filing for divorce.[/quote]

A lot of your analogy I completely agree with but I disagree with your premise regarding the Superbowl. Harvins first Jet sweep was a big play as was his second. All the plays made were huge. Frankly its ridiculous to suggest not having RW or ET in the game would not have made a difference, or Cam or Malcolm Smith or pick a name. The game was a perfect storm, a snowball rolling downhill but every big play by every guy made it roll and roll. And Harvins return got it rolling full speed coming out of the half.Everybody knows what Manning can do and the fact that the Hawks kept moving the chains was a huge factor that kept that game from being very different.

We can play what ifs all we want. Everyone wishes we had never brought Harvin here for all the reasons you list and more. I am on record saying I cant stand the thug and if his foot winds up on backwards I dont really care.

But to suggest that he did not have a major impact on the biggest game in Seahawks history is wrong.

[savvyman]

It's no different than getting drunk and having a wild night of sex with a porn star then waking up the next morning with a splitting headache, a STD, your wallet missing, and your wife filing for divorce.

Classic!

lol

[RiverDog]

A lot of your analogy I completely agree with but I disagree with your premise regarding the Superbowl. Harvins first Jet sweep was a big play as was his second. All the plays made were huge. Frankly its ridiculous to suggest not having RW or ET in the game would not have made a difference, or Cam or Malcolm Smith or pick a name. The game was a perfect storm, a snowball rolling downhill but every big play by every guy made it roll and roll. And Harvins return got it rolling full speed coming out of the half.Everybody knows what Manning can do and the fact that the Hawks kept moving the chains was a huge factor that kept that game from being very different.

We can play what ifs all we want. Everyone wishes we had never brought Harvin here for all the reasons you list and more. I am on record saying I cant stand the thug and if his foot winds up on backwards I dont really care.

But to suggest that he did not have a major impact on the biggest game in Seahawks history is wrong.

Harvin did have a major impact. I never said he didn't. But so did our defense, Cam's hit on Thomas, Russell's converting on 3rd downs early, Hauchka's FG's, our pass rush, the safety at the start of the game, and so on and so on. And think about this: If Harvin was as much of a difference maker as you are claiming, then why didn't he win the MVP? Why did they give it to Malcolm? Could we not have won had he been out of the lineup and Irvin played instead? Or was the awarding of the MVP to Smith an acknowledgement that the biggest factor in that game was the play of our defense so they gave it to the most appropriate defensive player they could find?

We can argue about whether or not we would have won the SB w/o Harvin until the sun goes down. But the fact is that in 2013 we beat a whole lot of very good teams without Percy Harvin and I feel very comfortable in stating that we would have beaten the Broncos in the SB as well. We crushed Denver by one of the biggest margins in SB history, so to suggest that the absence of two or three plays might have overturned the result is ludicrous IMO. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. It was our day.

[HumanCockroach]

How did a thread on injuries, turn into yet another forum to whine about Harvin? The past is the past, move on for the love of God.

[Hawktawk]

Harvin did have a major impact. I never said he didn't. But so did our defense, Cam's hit on Thomas, Russell's converting on 3rd downs early, Hauchka's FG's, our pass rush, the safety at the start of the game, and so on and so on. And think about this: If Harvin was as much of a difference maker as you are claiming, then why didn't he win the MVP? Why did they give it to Malcolm? Could we not have won had he been out of the lineup and Irvin played instead? Or was the awarding of the MVP to Smith an acknowledgement that the biggest factor in that game was the play of our defense so they gave it to the most appropriate defensive player they could find?

We can argue about whether or not we would have won the SB w/o Harvin until the sun goes down. But the fact is that in 2013 we beat a whole lot of very good teams without Percy Harvin and I feel very comfortable in stating that we would have beaten the Broncos in the SB as well. We crushed Denver by one of the biggest margins in SB history, so to suggest that the absence of two or three plays might have overturned the result is ludicrous IMO. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. It was our day.

It was our day for sure. My personal MVP was Wilson due to him being able to continuously move the chains and set up scores in spite of poor line play and an off night from Lynch. But Harvin had a huge impact on the game and you just admitted as much.The pooch kick in particular was a whisker from being a possible Denver possession on our goal line and Harvin ripped it all the way, an absolutely spectacular play. That play was the back breaker.

We really dont disagree on much, its more of a hair splitting thing. We ALL agree Harvin was a debacle and its whistling in the graveyard to say the saga isn't a big deal. As you correctly stated the damage is incalculable. Tate, Clem, well so many guys were lost. And the insubordination may have well cost us the difference between 6-3 and say 8-1.It was a complete disaster in hindsight, no sugar coating it.

[Futureite]

Losing Mebane is a killer, but no one in the league or division is going to cry for us as both Arizona (Palmer) and SF (Willis) also lose key players this last week. Losing Mebane though could be catastrophic for us as he was the only real NT on the whole team. Ironically, we drafted a guy in the 4th. round a few years ago that could have stepped in for him but he was cut because there wasn't enough room on the roster at the time. That guy's name is Jaye Howard who now is a starter on the K.C. D-Line. He could have been another of those 4th. through 7th. round great picks that John and Pete have become famous for but they picked experience over youth when they decided to let him go, now we pay.

I hate to keep beating a dead horse but since the horse is dead and can't feel anything I will. Lack of depth on the D-Line is yet another manifestation of how much the mistake of trading for Percy Harvin has cost this franchise. In fact, it just very well may have cost our team a chance at repeating this season. Between the lost draft picks and the money spent for so little return has been devastating. The money wasted on Harvin could have been used to resign Clinton McDonald or Golden Tate or maybe both. Maybe we could have kept a Red Bryant and moved him inside when Mebane gets hurt? Or, maybe we could have used one of the 3 picks we gave to Minnesota for Pussy Harvin to draft a young run stopping NT. We will never know, but the PH mistake was a very very bad one and ANYBODY who is still clinging to the fantasy that it was "good on paper" or the "right" thing to do at the time is in my mind just trying to rationalize a mistake that continues to hurt us.

John and Pete were able to resign Sherman and E.T and others last off season that was great, but I think they could have done even better than that and STILL had enough money to resign Russell, Wagner, Irvin, and other guys if they had not gone down the Harvin road which turned out to be a dead end. John and Pete took care of the LOB but everyone knew that the key to the success of the LOB started with the front 7 and that great rotation they had, they NEVER should have broke the band up Yoko.

Nope, no sympathy. We just lost Willis and our own starting NT Ian Williams to a fractured leg. This on top of all the other noteable absences due to injury or suspension we've had from day 1. This is where the depth both fanbases have crowed about forever really begins to show up. Should be a fun final 7 weeks in the west. Even with Zona at 8-1, the division is still very much at play for all 3 NFC West teams.

[HumanCockroach]

I don't think anyone was expecting sympathy for injuries, they suck, but every team has to cope with them, and there are always some team or another that somehow avoids it , typically those teams "surprise" people ( teams like Dallas, Cleveland, Pittsburgh etc) common denominator in the NFL is that you aren't going to be healthy all year, Seattle is on pace for the same amount of missed time this season due to injuries as last year.

[RiverDog]

It was our day for sure. My personal MVP was Wilson due to him being able to continuously move the chains and set up scores in spite of poor line play and an off night from Lynch. But Harvin had a huge impact on the game and you just admitted as much.The pooch kick in particular was a whisker from being a possible Denver possession on our goal line and Harvin ripped it all the way, an absolutely spectacular play. That play was the back breaker.

We really dont disagree on much, its more of a hair splitting thing. We ALL agree Harvin was a debacle and its whistling in the graveyard to say the saga isn't a big deal. As you correctly stated the damage is incalculable. Tate, Clem, well so many guys were lost. And the insubordination may have well cost us the difference between 6-3 and say 8-1.It was a complete disaster in hindsight, no sugar coating it.

Agreed about Wilson being the MVP if there was one, but I think the voters wanted to give it to a defensive player due to the fact that the overwhelming difference making factor was the play of our defense, and I agree with that line of thinking. Point is that there really wasn't an MVP, which is why I contend that the absence of any single individual on our team would not have changed the result.

The pooch kick bounced 10 feet in the air, so I don't think Denver had much of a chance of recovering it. Pretty easy for anyone that could walk and chew gum at the same time to field it. W/O Harvin to return it, worst case scenario we start the 2nd half from the 25 or 30 and keep the ball away from Peyton for another 5 minutes or so instead of letting them get the ball at 14:30 in the 3rd, albeit another 7 points down. There wasn't anything in the play in the second half that would have indicated that Denver had solved the riddle and could have come from 3 scores down at the half, which historically happens only about 10% of the time. The real killer was Smith's pick 6 that turned it into a 3 score game. The KO return turned a 90% assurance of victory into a rout.

My whole point of going through that exercise was to defeat any thought about this trade not being the worst in the history of our franchise. I understand that you're in basic agreement with me and I didn't mean to pick a fight with you.

Sorry about the tread diversion.

[c_hawkbob]

My whole point of going through that exercise was to defeat any thought about this trade not being the worst in the history of our franchise

This is the injury thread, I don't see why you needed to prove that point (which I believe you failed to do anyway) in a thread about injuries.

[monkey]

Agreed Bob.
I'm not sure what the point in hammering away on that trade is anymore...unless you just love to feel bad, why bother?
Whining endlessly about the trade, and proving to everyone that it was "TEH WORST TRADE EVA!!1!!11!!!" doesn't change anything, and frankly I don't care.
The front office did something they thought would be brilliant, and it didn't work out that way. Show me one front office that hasn't had a move backfire. At least they weren't sitting on their hands too afraid to do something like far too many other teams GM's are, and like virtually every GM we used to bring in here are/were!

But yeah let's just endlessly moan and whine about one move, cuz that makes for such great conversation right?

[RiverDog]

This is what waived the red flag in front of the bull: "But last Feb 2nd in New York Denver kicked a pooch to start the second half in the SB and Harvin destroyed the plan with an incredible run. A 22 point lead against a Peyton Manning led team is not safe but 29 was a clincher, a high five moment for Hawks fans and Mannings facial expressions on the sidelines told the whole story.And Harvin was also the leading rusher with 45 yards on 2 carries. Long term it will hurt but what is a Superbowl victory worth?

Hawktawk asked a question of which I felt like responding to. As far as diverting the thread, I did apologize, but this place isn't going to be greatly disrupted by an occasional wandering from the OP. There just isn't enough traffic to warrant a strict adherence to staying on topic. After all, it wasn't THAT far off topic as it was directly related to Seahawk football, not some political or social musings.

[Hawk Sista]

I'm hearing Lane re-tweaked his groin. Anyone else?

[HumanCockroach]

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Percy Harvin running the 2nd. half opening kick off didn't win the SB or even seal it. Both Denver and N.E. had come back from larger deficits in the past two seasons to win a game. But that wasn't going to happen. Sure, Pete eased off the gas pedal after the Harvin run back but I firmly believe we were going to take that Opening K/O and run a lot of the 3rd. Qtr. off the clock while scoring the "put away" TD. Those that still continue to try a call the Harvin trade anything but a COMPLETE DISASTER are IMHO COMPLETE IDIOTS and really should shut their pie hole before they start sounding completely ridiculous. BTW complete is my word for this week.

[RiverDog]

Percy Harvin running the 2nd. half opening kick off didn't win the SB or even seal it. Both Denver and N.E. had come back from larger deficits in the past two seasons to win a game. But that wasn't going to happen. Sure, Pete eased off the gas pedal after the Harvin run back but I firmly believe we were going to take that Opening K/O and run a lot of the 3rd. Qtr. off the clock while scoring the "put away" TD. Those that still continue to try a call the Harvin trade anything but a COMPLETE DISASTER are IMHO COMPLETE IDIOTS and really should shut their pie hole before they start sounding completely ridiculous. BTW complete is my word for this week.

LOL!

I'm stopping short of calling those not characterizing the Harvin trade as anything less than a complete disaster "complete idiots", but I do strongly feel that they are not being objective and are finding it difficult to admit that not everything Pete and John turns to gold if they are so stubborn that they still cling to that notion. For the amount we paid, a couple of fly sweeps and a second half TD in a game that was going in the manner it was is a very thin and shaky limb on which to hang your hat.

[Hawktawk]

Stop building up the straw man!!!!! NOBODY who is a seahawks fan thinks the trade for Harvin was anything short of a complete disaster.That isn't the discussion. My reference to him on this thread was in response to Sis stating its easy to manage a team from the couch and we did win a SB after all. Well we sure did and right on our blue ray for eternity will be #11 touching the ball 4 times for 3 first downs, 55 yards from scrimmage and a spectacular return for a TD. Folks can say what they think might have happened if the roster was different all they want but the only known fact is that Seattle won that game that way with those players making those plays. It is not knowable what the result of say a punt after the safety as opposed to a FG drive featuring a 30 yard gain on a jet sweep putting Seattle in scoring position might have been. Or maybe a 3 and out after the half or God forbid a pick or fumble. Harvin actually leaped into the air to secure the pooch kick or two defenders would have arrived at the same time as the ball. It was a great play and its ridiculous to say we would have been better off having to go out and sustain a drive than have that dagger in the heart of Denver right there.

We all hate Harvin. Id rather have won a SB and kept all the guys we lost and never have had to ask if things would have been different. But you cant be honest as a fan of the game if you say Harvin made no difference in the Super Bowl itself.

[Agent 86]

Wagner
Carpenter
Burley
Coyle

All have been ruled out today vs the Chiefs.

[Hawk Sista]

Unger's injury looked horrible. Not sure which is worse. Losing the game or losing him.

[burrrton]

Unger's injury looked horrible. Not sure which is worse. Losing the game or losing him.

Good question. That line is a borderline joke *with* him- without him it's cruel and unusual punishment watching them.

[Hawk Sista]

From the look of it, I'm not counting on his return this year (meaning Max). Anybody have anything different? I sure would love to hear it

[Hawktawk]

High ankle sprain. Dammit. If he and Okung could ever stay healthy we might have something.