I'd trade Russell Wilson for Andrew Luck.

[HumanCockroach]

HC;

I acknowledge what RW has done. But are we talking now or 2012? As of now, Luck is clearly the man. And I have posted why I thought that would happen numerous times.

Luck plays in a system that puts more on him. He had a much steeper learning curve becauae of that. This is why I predicted he'd separate himself this yr. He has, and RW is still posting 100 yd rushing games and running the read option. You can see a clear difference in both player's matutity from the pocket, footwork, reading of a D. And a LOT of that comes from the experience and maturation of playing in that high pressure "volume" style ball.

So while you were quoting RW's 26 TD 8 int seasons and scrutinizing Luck, I told you one was going to pay lingterm dividends and the other would ebb and flow with the team around him. RW's game us built off of movement, throwing great playaction deep balls and making good decisions. His style is not condusive to carrying a team, and this yr has proved it. You cannot tell me that the Hawks win by 3 tds with him chucking the ball 35 times for 160+ yds 2 ints and 0 tds as a pocket QB. Obviously the difference was his legs, Lynch, and your D. And that's the way it has been in Seattle from day ONE.

In Indy, everything begins and ends with Luck. True, his proficiency may not have been as good as RW's early on, but he stepped on to a far worse team and shouldered far more responsibility from the start. You cannot logically argue otherwise. Now in yr 3 we are seeing the fruits of all that early work and the difference in both QB's play. And it surprises me none.

LOL, so a QB has to be a "pocket passer" to carry a football team? LMFAO. If you haven't seen Wilson take over games, you're blind, period. Only ONE man has multiple 100+ 200+ games in history, not vickVick, not Cunningham, not Elway, not Rodgers, not Kaeprnick, not Luck figure it out big guy , anyone saying that isn't "carrying a team" is a moron.

[Futureite]

Are you thick? NO ONE is saying anything about THIS season specifically ( though Wilson has indeed already set MULTIPLE NFL records this season).... You seem to be having issues understanding the whole entire picture, and continue to hone in on eight games, why ? Could it be because for 32 of the 40 games Wilson's numbers do exactly what we continue to say they do? Which would be that he has been the better player , backed up by stats, records, and historical performances?...

And you STILL cannot acknowledge a thing he has done over the first two and half seasons in the league , WHY would ANYONE sane, continue to do this? Truth is they wouldn't. Unless I suppose they are a troll.

According to YOU all anyone had to do, was ask you to leave this board, you said you would, and would never come back. The last several days I've seen MULTIPLE posters ask you to take a powder, and yet,here you are, continuing to lie, spin and spew your idiotic ramblings ( not in the least surprising).

Keep inhaling the jock sweat of Luck ( Marino) and professing the inferiority of Wilson ( Montana) I could care less, but stop pretending like this eight game stretch somehow magically makes the other 32 games evaporate into thin air, it makes all of us a little bit dumber each time we read it.

Dude....no one believes he is better. No one. I get that you're a fan and all, but open your eyes. This is not 2012 and since sbout week 11 last yr aftet the Monday night game, teams have adapted and clamoed down on RW. He has been a very average QB since that point. Something like 15 TDs 8 ints over that stretch.

Wilson has thrown 11 friggin TDs this yr. Alex Smith has posted better numbers in most categories and his WRs are crap too. Don't tell me this guy is better when every damn game I have watched on national TV (GB, Dallas, Oakland, Giants, SD, Carolina) he has done next to nothing. He's done nothing remotely close to anything that resembles elite in any of those games, and it's not like I just got unlucky. There are what, 4 TDs passes combined in those starts??

Wilson is not an elite QB, period. Neither is Kap. These guys are not scaring the hell out of DCs. Andrew Luck is. I do recognize Wilson had a very good start to his career. Not "great", but profficient and good. You can compare his start V Peyton's, but as of today there is nothing to show his arrow continuing an upward trend as THAT type of QB. So the conparison for the purposes of 2014 and moving forward has considerably less relevance.

You always accuse me of being a homer. Yet here I am offering my own opinion of the 49ers QB who - again due to system and coaching - I believe will separate from Wilson. Yet I still concede he is not elite. You just cannot do the same, objectively.

[HumanCockroach]

LOL. Yeah the multiple 120+ games multiple TD games, and historic performances since week eleven last season make that abundantly clear. ( by the way, I recommend you review those stats again) I could provide you the link to his game logs, you won't look at them and dodge to some other angle, but be my guest continuing on the whole tying your own noose thing you do so well.

[Anthony]

Actually, Bucky Brooks on NFL.Com predicted Hawks to have one of NFL's most explosive Os. As did a whole hell of a lot of you on this board...RIGHT? I predicted the same for SF but at least I can recognize it ain't panning out. And the QB always bears a share of the blame for that.

I didn't mention TY because I have no idea how good ge truly is. Was Decker a great WR when he played with Peyton, or is he the guy he is now on the Jets? Same concept. If you say TY would be doing the same in Seattle as he is in Indy, I strongly disagree. Percy Harvin barely cracked 100 yds for the entire yr in Seattle, and you cannot just excuse that all away. Andrew Luck appears to be elevating TY the same way Manning does with Emanuel Sanders and every other receiver he throws to.

The stats prove nothing. The stats show Wilson at 89.9 QBR, 11 tds 5 ints. In what world is that remotely close to Andrew Luck, who bears the entire brunt of the O success and still posts a 100+ QBR and astronomical numbers? RW's numbers are pedestrian by any measure, let aline compared to Luck. And to show I am unbiased, Kap has slightly better numbers than RW across the board but not enough of a difference to show any meaningful edge. In fact, a lot of those numbers could swing the opposite direction in just 1 week.

Ahh actually most said we would have a explosive o based on Harvin who is not here, so nice try selective facts as usual. As to the rest yes luck is playing great this year, with his great oline and great WR, but again career to date Wilson is still head and shoulders above him and doing it with less.

[Anthony]

I will also add, as a Niner fan RW does make me nervous. If given time he can hit open guys. And his mobility is a nightmare. He is a heady QB and he is not going to make plays that lose games. So on this team especially, he makes Hawks hard to beat.

But for this debate, I do not belueve D coordinators stay up saying "how do we beat Russell Wilson" other than with respect to his mobility. Ditto for Kap. But the ALL worry about how to beat Andrew Luck. Brian Billik said it best about Luck when he stated "there is no way to gameplan for a pocket QB".

ah there is o way to game plan for a guy who can pass from the pocket and run like Wilson, said by Moon, Millan, Huard, Sanders, Irvin, and I can go on. Has already been abled one of the toughest QBs to game plan for in the NFL by many experts and the players.

[Futureite]

LOL. Yeah the multiple 120+ games multiple TD games, and historic performances since week eleven last season make that abundantly clear. ( by the way, I recommend you review those stats again) I could provide you the link to his game logs, you won't look at them and dodge to some other angle, but be my guest continuing on the whole tying your own noose thing you do so well.

About 15 regular games now since that Saints game. He's got 15 tds 8 ints by my unnoficial count in that stretch. Go through the game logs. Tell me that's elite or that he's trending toward greatness. You shot your mouth off, not me. I've heard it all from the "12's". Every other QB is dumb (Kap), or slumps their shoulders (Cam), or play reckless (Luck). None of them can be RW, right?

I don't ignore his record setting rushing performances. I actually list that as one of the things he does very well. Funny to hear you trumpet this after all of the criticisms of our one read running QB, but whatever. I am sure you have some reason that it's OK for RW to do it and better yet, even proves he's great. Probably that Kap ran out if "fear" and RW was "calculated" or some other backwards logic.

[Anthony]

Dude....no one believes he is better. No one. I get that you're a fan and all, but open your eyes. This is not 2012 and since sbout week 11 last yr aftet the Monday night game, teams have adapted and clamoed down on RW. He has been a very average QB since that point. Something like 15 TDs 8 ints over that stretch.

Wilson has thrown 11 friggin TDs this yr. Alex Smith has posted better numbers in most categories and his WRs are crap too. Don't tell me this guy is better when every damn game I have watched on national TV (GB, Dallas, Oakland, Giants, SD, Carolina) he has done next to nothing. He's done nothing remotely close to anything that resembles elite in any of those games, and it's not like I just got unlucky. There are what, 4 TDs passes combined in those starts??

Wilson is not an elite QB, period. Neither is Kap. These guys are not scaring the hell out of DCs. Andrew Luck is. I do recognize Wilson had a very good start to his career. Not "great", but profficient and good. You can compare his start V Peyton's, but as of today there is nothing to show his arrow continuing an upward trend as THAT type of QB. So the conparison for the purposes of 2014 and moving forward has considerably less relevance.

You always accuse me of being a homer. Yet here I am offering my own opinion of the 49ers QB who - again due to system and coaching - I believe will separate from Wilson. Yet I still concede he is not elite. You just cannot do the same, objectively.

Due again you are only looking at this year, for his career Wilson is Elite. A few bad games do not change that.

By the way I doubt you have watched all those games, so here you go I will only look at 2 of those games to make my point
GB 68% complt 2 tds, yeah that is nothing moron
SD 68% complt 2 tds yeah nothing again moron

Once again maron the mark of an elite QB is not how he does when everything is working, but how he does when things are not working and Wilson has found ways to win and help his team win even when things are not going great.

The difference between us and you is we have no problem saying Luck is great, he is. We do not think he is better than Wilson, and 1 great season does not prove it. Wilson has 2 great seasons, and even this season has had great games. Even if Luck continues and has no fall off, great he has one season out of 3 he had better than Wilson that still gives Wilson the edge 2-1. True total facts are a wonderful thing, they do things like make you look like the foolish troll you are.

[Futureite]

Anthony;

I agree on that. But you take away his legs and he is an average QB. I've yet to hear any announcer or columnist state that RW will just pick you apart all game long from the pocket given enough time. He is dangerous when he moves or buys time to allow his receivers to work open. That and his good decision making scare me as a fan. He will make a couole of big plsys each game with a deep ball and in the meantime will not make the key mistake. As Lynch wears on a D, that makes Hawks tough to beat. Yes, he is tough to prepare for. But if you box him in, he is average.

How the eff can you talk about a guy like this who has an 89.9 QB rating and is what, 24th in the NFL in passing?? Can one of you answer this without some stupid fallback about his line or receivers? Those are NOT elite QB stats.11 tds 5 ints and yet there is a thread pounding on Cam Newton. I know this is the time I'd start dissing other guys, when my QB is just lighting the world on fire with 165 0 TD 2 INT games V a garbage Giant D. Let's just talk about how much Andrew Luck sucks instead.

[HumanCockroach]

Since week 11 last season

Wilson has a QB Rating of 101.2 23 TD's 8 Int's

Luck Has QB rating of 96.4 41 TD's and 19 ints

Got that? Lucks "good start" is just that, PART of a season, against inferior competition. Luck to the best of my knowledge, does NOT boast the success Wilson has garnered, does he? Yet, your debate comes back to what? Whether you can grasp it ornot is irrelevant, Wilson has to DATE outperformed Luck, that is NOT debateable , you want to say Luck has had a better eight game stretch? I would be inclined to agree, of course I would still rail on you for assinign statements like "he isn't capable of carrying a team" as he continues to do so often ( though I would probably dismiss this as ignorance, with a lack of viewing, as opposed to troll like stupidity) but that isn't what you continue to profess is it?

You conveniently show up with this stupidity after poor performances, and yet, somehow are always on some sebatical around the time Wilson does exactly that which you profess he can't do ( carry a team) like Washington, St'Louis or some other miraculous game. You ARE aware that Wilson averages right around 300 yards of offense a game, right?

Eh, what ever, Wilson will get hot again, and you will once again go dormant, or slink back under your bridge until another bad game, and which point you'll be right back here professing your objectivity and sense of fair play, via your blind as a bat eye test.

[Anthony]

About 15 regular games now since that Saints game. He's got 15 tds 8 ints by my unnoficial count in that stretch. Go through the game logs. Tell me that's elite or that he's trending toward greatness. You shot your mouth off, not me. I've heard it all from the "12's". Every other QB is dumb (Kap), or slumps their shoulders (Cam), or play reckless (Luck). None of them can be RW, right?

I don't ignore his record setting rushing performances. I actually list that as one of the things he does very well. Funny to hear you trumpet this after all of the criticisms of our one read running QB, but whatever. I am sure you have some reason that it's OK for RW to do it and better yet, even proves he's great. Probably that Kap ran out if "fear" and RW was "calculated" or some other backwards logic.

I guess counting is not a troll thing he has had 20(would rank him 6th) tds and 8 ints in the last 15 regular season games. He has also posted over 60% complt in 11 of those 15, qb rating over 100, and over 500 yards rushing and another 4 tds and gone 10-5. Seems the facts show elite. Oh and doing it with way less talent then the other TOP Qbs

[Anthony]

Anthony;

I agree on that. But you take away his legs and he is an average QB. I've yet to hear any announcer or columnist state that RW will just pick you apart all game long from the pocket given enough time. He is dangerous when he moves or buys time to allow his receivers to work open. That and his good decision making scare me as a fan. He will make a couole of big plsys each game with a deep ball and in the meantime will not make the key mistake. As Lynch wears on a D, that makes Hawks tough to beat. Yes, he is tough to prepare for. But if you box him in, he is average.

How the eff can you talk about a guy like this who has an 89.9 QB rating and is what, 24th in the NFL in passing?? Can one of you answer this without some stupid fallback about his line or receivers? Those are NOT elite QB stats.11 tds 5 ints and yet there is a thread pounding on Cam Newton. I know this is the time I'd start dissing other guys, when my QB is just lighting the world on fire with 165 0 TD 2 INT games V a garbage Giant D. Let's just talk about how much Andrew Luck sucks instead.

Really so having a QB rating over 100 and Complt% over 64 in the pocket is avg Hmm as usual you know nothing and the facts prove it. As to how we can because we recognize him to be in a slump, 3 bad games is not a whole season where were you in the first 5 games? Answer trying some other BS, crap. Sorry dude the facts still show you wrong, he is Elite though in a slump and still has had the least amount of talent around him on offense of any top QB those are the facts deal with.

[HumanCockroach]

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/22 ... todays-nfl

You were saying? I can provide more "fools" like this guy if you would like ( guys named Montana and such just let me know).

[Futureite]

Since week 11 last season

Wilson has a QB Rating of 101.2 23 TD's 8 Int's

Luck Has QB rating of 96.4 41 TD's and 19 ints

Got that? Lucks "good start" is just that, PART of a season, against inferior competition. Luck to the best of my knowledge, does NOT boast the success Wilson has garnered, does he? Yet, your debate comes back to what? Whether you can grasp it ornot is irrelevant, Wilson has to DATE outperformed Luck, that is NOT debateable , you want to say Luck has had a better eight game stretch? I would be inclined to agree, of course I would still rail on you for assinign statements like "he isn't capable of carrying a team" as he continues to do so often ( though I would probably dismiss this as ignorance, with a lack of viewing, as opposed to troll like stupidity) but that isn't what you continue to profess is it?

You conveniently show up with this stupidity after poor performances, and yet, somehow are always on some sebatical around the time Wilson does exactly that which you profess he can't do ( carry a team) like Washington, St'Louis or some other miraculous game. You ARE aware that Wilson averages right around 300 yards of offense a game, right?

Eh, what ever, Wilson will get hot again, and you will once again go dormant, or slink back under your bridge until another bad game, and which point you'll be right back here professing your objectivity and sense of fair play, via your blind as a bat eye test.

Bullfucking s***. Don't you ever call me a liar again until you learn how to read a effing stat sheet. We have been through this EXACT song and dance before.

I can tell you without even reviewing the game logs that he finished 2013 with 4 TDs 3 ints over that stretch. I know verbatim because it was repeated over and over again on National Radio prior to the div playoff. He has 11 tds 5 ints this yr. That = 15 tds 8 ints over 15 regular season games. Where you came up with the additional 8 tds (Mars, msybe?) is anyone's guess. But it is not the first time you've completely butchered a statline and worse yet, followed it up by calling out someone as a liar.

Seriously. You and Anthony (and Munkay) should take the word "liar" out if your vocabulary. Just eliminate it altogether.

[HumanCockroach]

I guess counting is not a troll thing he has had 20(would rank him 6th) tds and 8 ints in the last 15 regular season games. He has also posted over 60% complt in 11 of those 15, qb rating over 100, and over 500 yards rushing and another 4 tds and gone 10-5. Seems the facts show elite. Oh and doing it with way less talent then the other TOP Qbs

No, making a claim about "since week 11" only to revise it when it isn't accurate to "regular season" ( and STILL getting the number wrong) removing postseason ( especially since we all know how truly "special" Luck is in that envienvironment, and has been each and every year) as if somehow performing better, against better competition is a bad thing, most definitely IS a "troll" thing.


Your original claim was "since week 11", I provided the stats for you ( as lord know you aren't going to actual find them)

[HumanCockroach]

Bullfucking s***. Don't you ever call me a liar again until you learn how to read a effing stat sheet. We have been through this EXACT song and dance before.

I can tell you without even reviewing the game logs that he finished 2013 with 4 TDs 3 ints over that stretch. I know verbatim because it was repeated over and over again on National Radio prior to the div playoff. He has 11 tds 5 ints this yr. That = 15 tds 8 ints over 15 regular season games. Where you came up with the additional 8 tds (Mars, msybe?) is anyone's guess. But it is not the first time you've completely butchered a statline and worse yet, followed it up by calling out someone as a liar.

Seriously. You and Anthony (and Munkay) should take the word "liar" out if your vocabulary. Just eliminate it altogether.

http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/playergamelog? ... 13&lang=EN

Oh, there is some lying, and some bullfucking sh!t going on, but it is NOT coming from this end. Wilson had three TD's in week 13 alone against NO, and followed that up with at least one in every game thereafter.YOU set the parameters, week 11. Last year, and then adjusted the parameters ( to all of a sudden only regular season) and now are somehow professing some BS stats that isn't accurate because you heard it on the f#cking radio?? Give me a F#cking break. I have NOW provided you with the "stat sheet" maybe YOU should learn how to READ one, though with those eyes, I kind of doubt you could understand the damn thing...

I'll be WAITING on your apology, for once again LYING and claiming I had done so instead( which obviously I haven't as there is that link right there to prove I haven't, as opposed to yet another F$cking unidentified, BS national radio or TV program you KNOW you heard somewhere, at some point, on some station or another, with some host you can't remember, while scanning the dial).

[Futureite]

Ok just looked it up on profootball reference.com.

Since the Saints Monday night game he had in fact thrown 4 TDs 3 ints. the rest of that season. And his QBR is nothing close to 100+ in that 2013 stretch, as he topped 100 only once and also posted a rating of 49 V the Cards. His cumulative rating in that stretch and this season is "probably" mid -low 80's. I am not about to crunch those numbers to find out when you grill me over misstating a 4 game stretch as a "5" game stretch. Big effing deal it changes none of the substance of my point!

OK over a "13" game sttretch - his last 13 - he has been a mid 80's rated QB with 15 TDs 8 INTs. How does this make me a "liar" or change the substance of my original point??

Do you seriously think I have time to get these figures exactly right every damn time? I am not getting paid to do that and I am also not going to take sn Anthony approach and claim one guy is better thsn the other based upon fractional differences. In this case RW has been glaringly average over a good chunk of time and Luck has been great. Period.

[HumanCockroach]

Ok just looked it up on profootball reference.com.

Since the Saints Monday night game he has in fact thrown 4 TDs 3 ints. And his QBR is nothing close to 100+ in that 2013 stretch, as he topped 100 only once and also posted a rating of 49 V the Cards. You adf his cumulative rating in that game and this season and it is "probably" mid -low 80's. I am not about to crunch those numbers to find out when you grill me over misstating a 4 game stretch as a "5" game stretch. Big effing deal it changes none of the substance of my point!

OK over a "13" game sttretch - his last 13 - he has been a mid 80's rated QB with 15 TDs 8 INTs. How does this make me a "liar" or change the substance of my original point??

Do you seriously think I have time to get these figures exactly right every damn time? I am not getting paid to do that and I am also not going to take sn Anthony approach and claim one guy is better thsn the other based upon fractional differences. In this case RW has been glaringly average over a good chunk of time and Luck has been great. Period.

YOU set the parameters not me, and I am NOT going to apologise for YOU doing so. Your claim was "since week 11" not I.

Anytime you want to apologise for YOUR mistake, let me know ( and by the way ace, you once again, left out postseason, in THIS post, and I could once again grill you on it, as he did indeed throw WAY more TD's than "4 since the NO game" as that includes everything after said game that season, including, the three he tossed in the SB)...

Why you are dismissing the playoffs I haven't the fogiest, as it was you just two short years claiming it "was the only thing that mattered" which I agreed with at the time, interesting it has changed so drastically in just one season... I'll DO the work ( see that, I can do it, and am willing TO do it) and get back to you shortly with actual numbers, and we'll skew it as much as possible just for you, so you can feel like you've "won" something ( what do I care, I actually look at the whole enchilada, but I suppose focussing on the refried beans can be exciting in it's own way.... to some).

[HumanCockroach]

Alright, here is your numbers skewed to a specific amount of games, over a specific amount of time, nullifying all post season performances:

Wilson 88.3 QB Rating 15TDs 8ints

Luck 96.72 QB rating 33tds 11ints

Now just for kicks, we are going to add the IMPORTANT stuff, just to see .....

WITH playoff performances ......

Wilson QB rating 96.15

Luck QB rating 82.8

Really the ONLY thing that can be learned by this is that Wilson has had some pretty awful games throwing the ball , and that drives his score down over the course that has been allotted even though he is more consistently OVER 100 qb rating than Luck is over that time ( even in ONLY your silly regular season spread 6 to5 and 8 To 5 if playoffs are included) Luck tends not to fall as far when he has "bad" games. ( Wilson has two sub fifty and a sub sixty, while Luck has only two sub sixty,and several in the eighty range)....


There you go, went ahead and "proved" ( LMFAO) how much of a "better" regular season, er, last thirteen games, regular season QB Luck is than Wilson.... Congrats, Luck really does know how to put up an average QBR against those Titans, Texans and Jags. LMFAO.

[Anthony]

Ok just looked it up on profootball reference.com.

Since the Saints Monday night game he had in fact thrown 4 TDs 3 ints. the rest of that season. And his QBR is nothing close to 100+ in that 2013 stretch, as he topped 100 only once and also posted a rating of 49 V the Cards. His cumulative rating in that stretch and this season is "probably" mid -low 80's. I am not about to crunch those numbers to find out when you grill me over misstating a 4 game stretch as a "5" game stretch. Big effing deal it changes none of the substance of my point!

OK over a "13" game sttretch - his last 13 - he has been a mid 80's rated QB with 15 TDs 8 INTs. How does this make me a "liar" or change the substance of my original point??

Do you seriously think I have time to get these figures exactly right every damn time? I am not getting paid to do that and I am also not going to take sn Anthony approach and claim one guy is better thsn the other based upon fractional differences. In this case RW has been glaringly average over a good chunk of time and Luck has been great. Period.

ahh I get it you are going to keep changing the parameters till you get numbers that support you. PATHETIC Except again you are wrong over his last 13 games would include the playoffs. This is were you would say not counting the playoffs because that would make your number wrong again. I am also sure if he comes out and plays well you will want to not count it too. Why just say counting were Wilson had a Qb rating under 85. I mean dude your pathetic, and this is proof your a troll and a pathetic one.

[HumanCockroach]

Just for sh!ts and giggles.....


Average pass defense in thirteen game parameter set for Wilson : 12th in NFL

Average pass defense in fourteen games over same time frame Luck : 19th in NFL

Top ten pass defenses faced over time frame Wilson : 6

Top ten pass defenses faced over time frame Luck : 2 ( seriously two out of fourteen games, how is that possible?)

Top 10 Defenses total faced over parameters Wilson: 9 ( 9 out of 13 possible games, yikes)

Top ten total defenses faced Luck over same time frame: 2 ( again, WTF?)

Important to note Luck plays in the AFC South in this period ( two games against Jags, and two against Titans. Should be mentioned that 3 of his 100+ ratings occured against these two opponents).

Overall, I don't think it is much of a stretch to come to the conclusion that Wilson has indeed faced MUCH stiffer competition, in the same stretch of time.

[RiverDog]

Luck is having a solid year, leads the league in total yards, is 3 TD's behind Manning in touchdown passes, is in the top 10 in most of the other statistical categories that quantify QB play, and he's led his team to a two game lead in their division. Depending on how the rest of the season pans out and how his team ends up doing, he could be a serious candidate for MVP.

Russell hasn't played well this season, at least not compared to last year. His numbers are down, his rating 10+ points worse, yard per attempt 1+ yards worse, fewer TD's (26 last season, only 11 after 9 games this year), and his team is two games behind the pace setting Cards in the NFC West. He's running a lot more this season as he already has 500 yards rushing when he had just 539 for all of last year. Perhaps because him and Bevell understand that the passing game isn't clicking? Unless his play changes dramatically in the next 7 games, I can't see him winning any post season awards like making the Pro Bowl. There's at least a dozen QB's having a better year, and if you want to relate QB play to team performance, there's 10 teams with a W/L record equal to or better than ours this year. Not so last season. We were 8-1 and on our way to HFA at this point last year.

But at this point, I still wouldn't trade Russell for Luck, not because I think Russell is a slam dunk better QB than Luck as others claim, but because Russell fits our offense and our team, ie run heavy, defense dominated, than does Luck. Like Pete says, we need a point guard to run our offense.

[c_hawkbob]

Bulleffing s***. Don't you ever call me a liar again until you learn how to read a effing stat sheet. We have been through this EXACT song and dance before.

I can tell you without even reviewing the game logs that he finished 2013 with 4 TDs 3 ints over that stretch. I know verbatim because it was repeated over and over again on National Radio prior to the div playoff. He has 11 tds 5 ints this yr. That = 15 tds 8 ints over 15 regular season games. Where you came up with the additional 8 tds (Mars, msybe?) is anyone's guess. But it is not the first time you've completely butchered a statline and worse yet, followed it up by calling out someone as a liar.

Seriously. You and Anthony (and Munkay) should take the word "liar" out if your vocabulary. Just eliminate it altogether.

That's pretty foul. We don't go to your forum and talk like that. My son was reading these forums when he was 13, I didn't allow him to talk like that then (still don't in my house).

[monkey]

WARNING: DUE TO TROLL INFESTATION, THREAD HIJACKING TAKING PLACE!

Discussion is now about how much better Russell Wilson is than Colin Kaepernick.
I'll begin.

Wilson is the QB the Niners fans wish Kaepernick was. Kaepernick is a poor man's version of Michael Vick.
Million dollar body, ten cent brain.

If I were a Niners troll, I bet I would constantly try to annoy Seahawks fans by bringing up Andrew Luck, because I couldn't annoy them by bringing up my own crappy QB, because the comparison would just make them all laugh. It's not even close. Wilson is SO MUCH BETTER in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY than their garbage QB.

Plus he looks like Squidward...just saying.

[RiverDog]

I agree, the use of profanity, even if only implied, crosses the line. I'lll use horse pucky, bull crap, or some other relatively tamer version of industrial strength language if I want to put an exclamation point on my statement. Treat this forum like a public place. Even I don't like hearing a bunch of F-bombs in a restaurant or bar.

[HumanCockroach]

I apologise for the use of said words in response.

[obiken]

All this over the stupidest what if thread I have ever seen!! Please lets end it!

[HumanCockroach]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=990

[RiverDog]

There, I said it.

This is no longer blasphemy, but common sense.

Boy, you sure kicked the hornet's nest on this topic. There are countless 12's that now have their vision permanently altered by Russell Wilson. It's almost as if they consider it a prerequisite of being a 12, that you have to subscribe to the notion that Russell is the best QB on the planet even in the face of the fact that he is having a down year.

Having said that, I still wouldn't trade Russell for Luck, at least not with our current team and not at this point of their respective careers. We do not have an offense that is adapt to racking up 30+ points a game and 400 yards of passing offense. The core of our team is defense, so the object of the offense, in addition to scoring as much points as they can, is to do it within a framework that minimizes the risk of putting the defense in bad positions. Russell does not take chances and as a rule, makes smart decisions and can ad lib to the offense with his scrambling and running ability. Pete said it best when he said that he wants a point guard running his offense, and that's exactly what Russell is. I reserve the right to change my mind as our team changes and as Russell's career progresses.

Luck is having a very good year and has his team in a great position to win their division. He's leading the league in total passing yardage and is in the top 10 in most stats that measures QB performance. There ain't no flies on him. Although I wouldn't trade him for Russell, at least not right now, I certainly wouldn't mind having him on our team. I can think of at least 28 other starting quarterbacks I would take him over.

[Futureite]

I agree, the use of profanity, even if only implied, crosses the line. I'lll use horse pucky, bull crap, or some other relatively tamer version of industrial strength language if I want to put an exclamation point on my statement. Treat this forum like a public place. Even I don't like hearing a bunch of F-bombs in a restaurant or bar.

I went way overboard. I thought the thread had already gone off the rails and it was a free for all. HC had called me on my promise to leave if asked. He and a couple others assumed that was the consensus here. I assumed it was their opinion and that of a few others. If it 'is' the general consensus rather than the opinion of a few, I will in fact stop posting.

What raised my ire is having been called out consistently as a liar. I don't mind anyone calling out my opinions as vociferously as they like, because of course, I do it too. But the "trolling" came about moreso from so many opinions that I posted in rather modest terms having been turned into a referendum on my character or an exhibit to prove I am a "troll". This thread is a perfect example.

My opinion which I posted prior to the season was that Luck would distance himself from the other young QBs. I have consustently paired RW's and Luck's style of play and O v one another to draw reference to their respective learning curves and the pressure placed upon them by their respective OCs. I said one style lent to immediate proficiency and success, the other for much higher longterm growth as a pocket passer. I also stated that Luck was by far the most talented young QB of the class.

When all of this bore true in the form of Luck plaing like a top 4 MVP QB and RW and Kap playing wildly inconsistently, yes, I pushed back pretty hard on all the people that had called me out in the first place. This is just one of many opinions that I have posted that turned out to onpoint. I never asked or cared if anyone agreed with me. But to call me out as a "troll" or "liar" because of a strong opinion is and always was absurd.

Maybe this is a culteral thing (I have stated this before many times as well). When in Seattle, I got the general vibe that the PNW is a very polite, somewhat repressed culture which strongly seeks consensus. That culture lends to some passive social norms which embolden others. For example, while walking in the U-District a group of black guys yelled something about my "white" girlfriend looking good and commented about me. This doesn't happen here. I've never experienced that. I turned around and said "Hey buddy, I'm not from here. You don't talk to people like that, ever". I was pretty heated. These guys looked shocked. I am sure 99% of the time no one responds up there.

I kinda feel the same thing here. If the opinion is not within the social norm, the "troll, liar" cards are pulled quick. If someone like me has the personality to respond, it's "hey, get rid of him. Ban him. Push him out". I honestly feel this is the mentality that emboldens some people in the PNW - from the over the top "weird" street people I saw in Olympia to the example I noted above. Some street girl in Olympia saw that I was dressed nice and started intentionally acting weird to trip us out, singing at us and talking nonsense. I responded "shut up. Get out of our space". Seemed to work just fine.

Maybe I just do not mesh with the entire culture the way I thought. Maybe I am a fast driving (got a speeding ticket going 74....74??) Niner loving scumbag Californian and this whole thing was never going to work from the start, from living there to posting here. I am beginning to realize that. We are probably just way too different.

[burrrton]

Future's feeling emboldened now that Luck is *finally* playing better than Russell. I think we should cut him some slack FWIW.

[c_hawkbob]

I went way overboard. I thought the thread had already gone off the rails and it was a free for all. HC had called me on my promise to leave if asked. He and a couple others assumed that was the consensus here. I assumed it was their opinion and that of a few others. If it 'is' the general consensus rather than the opinion of a few, I will in fact stop posting.

What raised my ire is having been called out consistently as a liar. I don't mind anyone calling out my opinions as vociferously as they like, because of course, I do it too. But the "trolling" came about moreso from so many opinions that I posted in rather modest terms having been turned into a referendum on my character or an exhibit to prove I am a "troll". This thread is a perfect example.

My opinion which I posted prior to the season was that Luck would distance himself from the other young QBs. I have consustently paired RW's and Luck's style of play and O v one another to draw reference to their respective learning curves and the pressure placed upon them by their respective OCs. I said one style lent to immediate proficiency and success, the other for much higher longterm growth as a pocket passer. I also stated that Luck was by far the most talented young QB of the class.

When all of this bore true in the form of Luck plaing like a top 4 MVP QB and RW and Kap playing wildly inconsistently, yes, I pushed back pretty hard on all the people that had called me out in the first place. This is just one of many opinions that I have posted that turned out to onpoint. I never asked or cared if anyone agreed with me. But to call me out as a "troll" or "liar" because of a strong opinion is and always was absurd.

Maybe this is a culteral thing (I have stated this before many times as well). When in Seattle, I got the general vibe that the PNW is a very polite, somewhat repressed culture which strongly seeks consensus. That culture lends to some passive social norms which embolden others. For example, while walking in the U-District a group of black guys yelled something about my "white" girlfriend looking good and commented about me. This doesn't happen here. I've never experienced that. I turned around and said "Hey buddy, I'm not from here. You don't talk to people like that, ever". I was pretty heated. These guys looked shocked. I am sure 99% of the time no one responds up there.

I kinda feel the same thing here. If the opinion is not within the social norm, the "troll, liar" cards are pulled quick. If someone like me has the personality to respond, it's "hey, get rid of him. Ban him. Push him out". I honestly feel this is the mentality that emboldens some people in the PNW - from the over the top "weird" street people I saw in Olympia to the example I noted above. Some street girl in Olympia saw that I was dressed nice and started intentionally acting weird to trip us out, singing at us and talking nonsense. I responded "shut up. Get out of our space". Seemed to work just fine.

Maybe I just do not mesh with the entire culture the way I thought. Maybe I am a fast driving (got a speeding ticket going 74....74??) Niner loving scumbag Californian and this whole thing was never going to work from the start, from living there to posting here. I am beginning to realize that. We are probably just way too different.

What a load. It's not a cultural thing and it's not that you're from California, your problem is that you never saw a mud puddle you didn't want to jump into with both feet. You're not satisfied with expressing your opinion and being done with it, you have to take on all comers and repeat the same tired crap over and over until you've responded individually to every single dissenting opinion, every single time it's said. You also choose to express opinions that you know are going to bring negative responses from Seahawks fans just so you can wallow in some more of this BS.

Stay if you want, or go. Your welcome to contribute, even if it's a dissenting opinion, just don't feel the need to defend your opinion ad nausium. you're gonna get disagreed with, deal with it.

[Hawktown]

I'd trade Future for CP Returns in a heartbeat. CP was just better at his nonsense. Future is just an aggravating troll here to ruffle Hawk fan feathers whether we are right or wrong in our opinion.

[Anthony]

Boy, you sure kicked the hornet's nest on this topic. There are countless 12's that now have their vision permanently altered by Russell Wilson. It's almost as if they consider it a prerequisite of being a 12, that you have to subscribe to the notion that Russell is the best QB on the planet even in the face of the fact that he is having a down year.

Having said that, I still wouldn't trade Russell for Luck, at least not with our current team and not at this point of their respective careers. We do not have an offense that is adapt to racking up 30+ points a game and 400 yards of passing offense. The core of our team is defense, so the object of the offense, in addition to scoring as much points as they can, is to do it within a framework that minimizes the risk of putting the defense in bad positions. Russell does not take chances and as a rule, makes smart decisions and can ad lib to the offense with his scrambling and running ability. Pete said it best when he said that he wants a point guard running his offense, and that's exactly what Russell is. I reserve the right to change my mind as our team changes and as Russell's career progresses.

Luck is having a very good year and has his team in a great position to win their division. He's leading the league in total passing yardage and is in the top 10 in most stats that measures QB performance. There ain't no flies on him. Although I wouldn't trade him for Russell, at least not right now, I certainly wouldn't mind having him on our team. I can think of at least 28 other starting quarterbacks I would take him over.

I agree Luck is having a great year, but he has so much talent around him on offense that it is nuts, If We had that much talent on offense and that scheme Wilson would be putting up huge numbers too. Add in his easy schedule and there you go.

[RiverDog]

I agree Luck is having a great year, but he has so much talent around him on offense that it is nuts, If We had that much talent on offense and that scheme Wilson would be putting up huge numbers too. Add in his easy schedule and there you go.

There's also an argument that great quarterbacks elevate the play of their teammates, and Russell isn't doing that. I really don't think Luck has all that much greater talent than Russell does. He certainly doesn't have as good of a running game or defense to rely on like Russell does and I'm not THAT impressed with Luck's receiving corps. People forget that a strong defense and solid running game are two huge assets for a quarterback, especially when one of those running threats is the QB himself.

Luck and Wilson are two different quarterbacks on two completely different teams, like comparing apples with oranges. A better comparison is with Kaep and the Niners.

[RiverDog]

I went way overboard. I thought the thread had already gone off the rails and it was a free for all. HC had called me on my promise to leave if asked. He and a couple others assumed that was the consensus here. I assumed it was their opinion and that of a few others. If it 'is' the general consensus rather than the opinion of a few, I will in fact stop posting.

What raised my ire is having been called out consistently as a liar. I don't mind anyone calling out my opinions as vociferously as they like, because of course, I do it too. But the "trolling" came about moreso from so many opinions that I posted in rather modest terms having been turned into a referendum on my character or an exhibit to prove I am a "troll". This thread is a perfect example.

My opinion which I posted prior to the season was that Luck would distance himself from the other young QBs. I have consustently paired RW's and Luck's style of play and O v one another to draw reference to their respective learning curves and the pressure placed upon them by their respective OCs. I said one style lent to immediate proficiency and success, the other for much higher longterm growth as a pocket passer. I also stated that Luck was by far the most talented young QB of the class.

When all of this bore true in the form of Luck plaing like a top 4 MVP QB and RW and Kap playing wildly inconsistently, yes, I pushed back pretty hard on all the people that had called me out in the first place. This is just one of many opinions that I have posted that turned out to onpoint. I never asked or cared if anyone agreed with me. But to call me out as a "troll" or "liar" because of a strong opinion is and always was absurd.

Maybe this is a culteral thing (I have stated this before many times as well). When in Seattle, I got the general vibe that the PNW is a very polite, somewhat repressed culture which strongly seeks consensus. That culture lends to some passive social norms which embolden others. For example, while walking in the U-District a group of black guys yelled something about my "white" girlfriend looking good and commented about me. This doesn't happen here. I've never experienced that. I turned around and said "Hey buddy, I'm not from here. You don't talk to people like that, ever". I was pretty heated. These guys looked shocked. I am sure 99% of the time no one responds up there.

I kinda feel the same thing here. If the opinion is not within the social norm, the "troll, liar" cards are pulled quick. If someone like me has the personality to respond, it's "hey, get rid of him. Ban him. Push him out". I honestly feel this is the mentality that emboldens some people in the PNW - from the over the top "weird" street people I saw in Olympia to the example I noted above. Some street girl in Olympia saw that I was dressed nice and started intentionally acting weird to trip us out, singing at us and talking nonsense. I responded "shut up. Get out of our space". Seemed to work just fine.

Maybe I just do not mesh with the entire culture the way I thought. Maybe I am a fast driving (got a speeding ticket going 74....74??) Niner loving scumbag Californian and this whole thing was never going to work from the start, from living there to posting here. I am beginning to realize that. We are probably just way too different.

I for one don't want you to stop posting. But your constantly having to apologize for something you said in here is getting a bit old. I understand that you've had to endure some taunts and your treatment hasn't always been how I would like to see us treat other team's fans, but what do you expect coming into another team's forum? A person needs a thick skin to come into another team's forum, especially an arch rival's.

I'm not exactly a world traveler, but my personal observation is that there isn't a great deal of difference between the various regions when it comes to A-holes per capita. IMO the PNW is no more or no less friendly than most other areas of the country, which includes CA.

[monkey]

There's also an argument that great quarterbacks elevate the play of their teammates, and Russell isn't doing that.

See, this is exactly the sort of opinion statement that Wilson bashers toss around, with ZERO supporting evidence, which drive me crazy.
How can you even make that claim? On the face of it, it is completely ridiculous!

Fine...since it's apparently OK for you guys to make entirely unsubstantiated claims, and present them as facts, I'll make one.

Without Russell Wilson extending literally EVERY FREAKING PASS PLAY with his legs, virtually no one would ever get open, and Wilson would be sacked or hurried constantly! Without Wilson constantly making our receivers look better than they really are, by extending EVERY SINGLE FREAKING PLAY, we'd have no passing game at all.


Hey, this just making crap up stuff is fun! I think I'll just keep doing it!

[HumanCockroach]

How about this one. Luck once again faced a "quality" opponent on national TV and played poorly, as always, and once again couldn't win the game. ( I know it isn't made up, but I don't swing that way). I have little doubt Wilson could Shred the poor teams in that division week in and week out.

[Hawktawk]

There's also an argument that great quarterbacks elevate the play of their teammates, and Russell isn't doing that. [/quote]

See, this is exactly the sort of opinion statement that Wilson bashers toss around, with ZERO supporting evidence, which drive me crazy.
How can you even make that claim? On the face of it, it is completely ridiculous!

Fine...since it's apparently OK for you guys to make entirely unsubstantiated claims, and present them as facts, I'll make one.

Without Russell Wilson extending literally EVERY FREAKING PASS PLAY with his legs, virtually no one would ever get open, and Wilson would be sacked or hurried constantly! Without Wilson constantly making our receivers look better than they really are, by extending EVERY SINGLE FREAKING PLAY, we'd have no passing game at all.


Hey, this just making crap up stuff is fun! I think I'll just keep doing it!
[/quote]

I said a couple weeks ago that without RW this is a 6-10-7-9 team at best.That includes a team with Lynch. he was here from 2010 on and check the record before RW showed up. You are absolutely correct about the passing game being alive only because of RWs legs, poise, and patience. Our receivers are so unremarkable, so nonathletic they can not create separation and the line is embarrassingly bad in passing situations.I dont know if RW is elevating anyone else's play, you can only polish a turd so much. But he is packing this team on his back which is what great ones really do. Luck would get killed on this team. he would have 4 turnovers a game and he would be a 6-10 7-9 guy. Sorry I'm not making that trade.

[Futureite]

River;

You are right. I have just had a ton of stress with work, relationship, possible career change. But it's not an excuse. I am as guilty as anyone of going back and forth.

I think both of our QBs have been a bit of a disappointment. They are "good", but not showing signs of elite pocket skills. Of course this is only yr 3 and the supporting cast has not helped at times, but you look at a guy like Rodgers who throws for 66% completion and makes all of these average guys look like stars and our guys look miles from that.

What struck me watching Luck last night was how consistently accurate he is pushing the ball downfield and how good his footwork is. He moves just slightly to avoid pressure and can reposition his body in an instant to move off of his primary read and fire the ball. He makes it look so easy that you look up thinking he's playing decent and he's 11-13 for 153 in less than a half. And I agree about his surrounding talent. Reggie Wayne looks very slow now. Fleener is a big body target but not an elite guy that creates separation. Nicks is and has always been solid and a big play threat, but not a perenniel probowler. The one guy they have who is outstanding in Hilton. One of the better slot receivers in the game. But IMHO a lot of why he is playing that way is due to Luck.

Oh well. Both our teams are in the thick of the race. So we have that.

[Anthony]

River;

You are right. I have just had a ton of stress with work, relationship, possible career change. But it's not an excuse. I am as guilty as anyone of going back and forth.

I think both of our QBs have been a bit of a disappointment. They are "good", but not showing signs of elite pocket skills. Of course this is only yr 3 and the supporting cast has not helped at times, but you look at a guy like Rodgers who throws for 66% completion and makes all of these average guys look like stars and our guys look miles from that.

What struck me watching Luck last night was how consistently accurate he is pushing the ball downfield and how good his footwork is. He moves just slightly to avoid pressure and can reposition his body in an instant to move off of his primary read and fire the ball. He makes it look so easy that you look up thinking he's playing decent and he's 11-13 for 153 in less than a half. And I agree about his surrounding talent. Reggie Wayne looks very slow now. Fleener is a big body target but not an elite guy that creates separation. Nicks is and has always been solid and a big play threat, but not a perenniel probowler. The one guy they have who is outstanding in Hilton. One of the better slot receivers in the game. But IMHO a lot of why he is playing that way is due to Luck.

Oh well. Both our teams are in the thick of the race. So we have that.

More garbage form the garbage man,