Penalties

[RiverDog]

We are one of the most heavily penalized team in the league. That should come as no surprise as indeed, we were the heaviest penalized team in the league last year. Pete Carroll coached teams are notoriously heavily penalized. As a matter of fact, Pete himself recently noted how even at USC, his teams drew a lot of penalties. But it doesn't come from where you might think, ie pass interference, personal fouls, etc, that might be a result from the very aggressive style of defense his teams play. Our biggest bugaboo is in the pre snap category: False starts, defensive offsides, neutral zone infractions, and illegal procedure. Those are pretty objective calls, so it's pretty difficult to cry foul about some sort of possible biased officiating when we have a habit of shooting ourselves in the foot.

IMO where the real debate exists is in the amount of penalties our opponents are flagged for, which is by far the fewest in the league. We have been the beneficiary of just 51 penalties in our first 12 games. The next nearest teams in terms of least penalty beneficiary is the Jets with 63. Add it all up and we draw flags at a 2 to 1 ratio vs. our opponents, again by far a league high.

Some of the discrepancy can be attributed to the fact that we are a run orientated team. We have the second most rushing attempts and by far the fewest passing attempts in the league. Other run orientated teams, such as the aforementioned Jets and the Cowboys, are 2nd and 4th in terms of fewest penalties drawn. The Browns and Texans are run orientated as well, and they, too, are in the top 10 of least beneficiary, so it's pretty clear that there is a direct relationship between the style of offense and the number of flags those teams draw. But does that explain all of that 2 to 1 ratio?

Here's a pretty good link that slices and dices penalties:

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

IMO with that large of a discrepancy, Pete has a pretty good case to make if he so chooses, and perhaps he needs to get into the heads of the refs regardless if a good part of that discrepancy is justifiable. Hairball's whining about the officiating obviously helped the Niners last season.

Comments?

[depaashaas]

You know I was going to bring something similar up after the rams game, I for one still cannot wrap my mind around the fact that at the moment we played the rams they were one of the most penalized teams and they were getting about 9 per game and the game against the Hawks they only got 3 of them. Don't get me wrong the Hawks do make penalties I am not disputing that but I have seen plenty of holding by opposing teams and that got not flagged. Now that I am looking at the link you posted I noticed that from the 11 least penalized teams the Hawks played 7 of them, maybe they just have their stuff together a bit better. It does not help the conspiracy that in the game against the chiefs they call it "feet got tangled up" and no flag is thrown and if the hawks do it against the niners and the player involved does not even involve the play they do trow a flag to were in the chiefs game the ball clearly was going to Baldwin

[RiverDog]

I'm a little surprised that most of you guys aren't much interested in discussing it. It's getting a lot of play in several of the forums/blogs I frequent and Pete himself has been pretty vocal about it lately.

http://seattletimes.com/html/seahawks/2 ... 28xml.html

[c_hawkbob]

Seems to me I recall you very nearly scolding many of us for attributing Extra Large to officiating.

[HumanCockroach]

Uh Huh. No reason to rehash this. The disparity is obscene, and that isn't about to change all of a sudden.

[burrrton]

I'm surprised RD of all people is wanting to talk about this.

I haven't chimed in because I don't really know what to say that I haven't already said a million times. I don't think there's a conspiracy against us, but referees, being human, are subject to the same influences (subconscious or otherwise) the rest of us are, and to think this can't/doesn't show up with the flags sometimes seems indefensible.

Yeah, we commit a bunch of stupid penalties that *aren't* really subject to judgment, but man, ignoring the raw number of penalties (which is tough to argue with given the number of dumbass things we do), it's not hard to make a case that there has been a 'level of play' allowed by our opposition that hasn't been afforded to us.

Just as a for instance, I have a tough time recalling the last time an opposing D-lineman was called for encroachment- if they jump, they're either allowed to get back (if we don't move) or we're flagged for a false start (if we do move).

Beyond that, it's been quite similar to XL- many of the individual calls are defensible in a vacuum (some more than others), but when you compare what was called on us to what *wasn't* called on the opponent, it's easy to argue there is a different level of scrutiny being applied.

[edit]

And I'll echo Pete- that "pick play" was one of the most bizarre and egregious calls I've ever seen. How do you, as an NFL referee, even begin to see that as a pick play when there was no crossing of the defenders, when the inside receiver goes inside away from the pass and away from the guy, you know, defending? Just brutal.

[NorthHawk]

I think if we stop with the mental mistakes, the others will take care of themselves.
Discipline is something that creates respect from others and might give us a break when there are close calls.

[mykc14]

There is obviously something off when the disparity is so high, especially when you take the stats a bit further and see how much below their season averages in penalties those other teams are when they play the Hawks. IMO this is a huge issue and in reality it probably has cost the Hawks at least one game (look at the penalty discrepancy against the Rams who had 2 penalties called against them or the Chiefs who only had 3, #4 on that pass to Baldwin would have been nice). I know our 102 penalties are our fault (for the most part although we can all think of more than a few that were very bad calls), but what isn't is how few the officials are calling on the other teams. I'm not one to go so far as to say there was some sort of league conspiracy to make officials call less fouls on other teams but there is something to this discrepancy. It has to be one of 3 things: League Conspiracy (not likely), Pure Coincidence (unlikely), Officials subconsciously holding flags (knowing in the back of their minds that the opponents are already overmatched and so they may not call those close fouls against them), Reputation (the Hawks consistently play on the edge of the rules and so we are going to watch them a little more closely and therefore maybe miss something from the other teams, or the Hawks opponents are playing more focused football (they know they have to play perfect football so they are a little more focused/prepared for the game during the week and play more disciplined during the game). Honestly I think it might be a combination of a few of these like the officials subconsciously hold the flag, our reputation, and our opponents being a little more focused against us then maybe other weeks.

[mykc14]

Just as a for instance, I have a tough time recalling the last time an opposing D-lineman was called for encroachment- if they jump, they're either allowed to get back (if we don't move) or we're flagged for a false start (if we do move).

I would also add that there have been at least 2 obvious false starts on our opponents in the past few weeks where there was no flag and there were a few other encroachments called against us where we didn't go into the neutral zone at all. All of those close call are going against us and not against our opponents. I mean we could make a long long list of penalties called against us that just make you scratch your head and wonder what the heck the officials were thinking.

[burrrton]

Agreed, myk.

Related: anyone know (or have a link to) the rule regarding encroachment and/or movement that makes an o-lineman move, or whatever it's termed?

I'm thinking I must have the rule wrong in my head.

There is obviously something off when the disparity is so high, especially when you take the stats a bit further and see how much below their season averages in penalties those other teams are when they play the Hawks.

Yup.

[HumanCockroach]

All I personally want is for it to be called consistently BOTH ways for a damn change. The idea that there was an illegal pick called on Turbin and on Sunday the Chargers won a game at the end with the receiver not even running a route and blocking the DB full on, is offensive to me. Until the league can at least create an "even" playing field within the SAME game, I will continue to blow a gasket every time they swallow a flag, refuse to toss one when the game is on the line, or continue to throw phantom flags on scoring plays.

Seattle should get penalised, but I grow weary of watching blatant penalties occur on Seattles opponents right in front of the refs, only to have far less egregious actions by the Hawks called, while "missing" those on the opponents. Consistency in the SAME game, with the SAME refs, doesn't seem like asking for the world IMHO.

[mykc14]

Agreed, myk.

Related: anyone know (or have a link to) the rule regarding encroachment and/or movement that makes an o-lineman move, or whatever it's termed?

I'm thinking I must have the rule wrong in my head.



Yup.

Which part of the rule do you think you have wrong? If a Defensive player is in the neutral zone when the ball is snapped, or he makes contact with an offensive player he is offsides (or encroachment). If he is in the neutral zone 'causing' an offensive player to move, before the ball is snapped, it is considered offsides (or encroachment). If he jumps into the neutral zone, doesn't touch an offensive player, and gets back to his side of the ball before the ball is snapped (and no offensive player jumped while he was in the zone) then there is no penalty. There is another rule that is almost never called because it so rarely happens but if a Defensive player goes so far into the neutral zone that he is considered in the other teams backfield but no offensive player moves and the ball isn't snapped a flag can be thrown without him getting the chance to get back to his side of the ball, but this really almost never happens.

[kalibane]

I think if we stop with the mental mistakes, the others will take care of themselves.
Discipline is something that creates respect from others and might give us a break when there are close calls.

I think you may be misreading the point. This is not about the number of penalties called on the Seahawks. It's about the penalties called on Seahawk opponents.

Seahawk opponents have been flagged significantly less than the opponents of any other teams. So for example say the Oakland Raiders get flagged 8 times per game but then when they play the Seahawks they only get flagged 3 times. Then the next week and the rest of the season the Raiders go right back to averaging 8 penalties a game.

Plausible that the Raiders just happened to have a really good week with penalties that week right? Only that's happening with every team. Pretty much every team Seattle plays coincidentally has one of their lowest penalty totals of the year when they play the Seahawks.

One team being flagged a lot can be attributed to lack of discipline and the culture of that particular team. But it's tough to come up with a plausible explanation for the imbalance in opponents penalties that doesn't include some kind of bias.

Oh and Riv I mainly didn't want to post here because inevitably the argument against it will be, "stop whining".

[burrrton]

Which part of the rule do you think you have wrong?

Well, if your summary is accurate, nothing, because that mirrors my knowledge of it, too.

However, we've had numerous false start calls where an opposing D-lineman would jump and Okung or Britt would move, and I'd think to myself "Ok, cool down- there must be some circumstance under which the o-lineman can't move regardless of the D jumping."

[kalibane]

Which part of the rule do you think you have wrong? If a Defensive player is in the neutral zone when the ball is snapped, or he makes contact with an offensive player he is offsides (or encroachment). If he is in the neutral zone 'causing' an offensive player to move, before the ball is snapped, it is considered offsides (or encroachment). If he jumps into the neutral zone, doesn't touch an offensive player, and gets back to his side of the ball before the ball is snapped (and no offensive player jumped while he was in the zone) then there is no penalty. There is another rule that is almost never called because it so rarely happens but if a Defensive player goes so far into the neutral zone that he is considered in the other teams backfield but no offensive player moves and the ball isn't snapped a flag can be thrown without him getting the chance to get back to his side of the ball, but this really almost never happens.

Not quite accurate

If a defensive player is in the neutral zone, does not touch an offensive player, does not create a clear path to the backfield and no offensive player reacts to that defensive player by moving, it's considered offsides. The play continues as normal and essentially the offense has a free play.

If a defensive player jumps so far offsides that he's in the backfield and doesn't touch anyone on the offensive side of the ball, it's offsides, unabated to the QB. Play is blown dead and it's a 5 yard penalty.

If a defensive player moves into the neutral zone and makes contact with an offensive player it's considered encroachment, the play is whistled dead and it's an automatic five yards.

If a defensive players jumps offsides and that action causes an offensive player to flinch it's a neutral zone infraction , play is blown dead and again five yards.

I'm going to assume Burrton is confused about the rule mainly because in the last few games I've seen a few flags where the ref called it encroachment but it was actually one of the other three infractions. Also there was one call on Thanksgiving where one of our guys jumped offsides, didn't touch anyone, didn't appear to me that a lineman flinched and the ref blew the play dead and threw the flag for "encroachment" even though the ball was never snapped. Unless I just missed a flinch by an offensive lineman (entirely possible) that shouldn't have been a penalty at all.

[kalibane]

Well, if your summary is accurate, nothing, because that mirrors my knowledge of it, too.

However, we've had numerous false start calls where an opposing D-lineman would jump and Okung or Britt would move, and I'd think to myself "Ok, cool down- there must be some circumstance under which the o-lineman can't move regardless of the D jumping."

Depends on where the defense jumped offsides. If the defender who jumped isn't across from the offensive lineman who flinched the refs my interpret that the offsides wasn't what induced the false start. For instance if the Nose Tackle jumped and then Okung flinched. That probably would still be a false start on Okung because Okung is never going to be responsible for engaging him immediately on the snap.

[burrrton]

Depends on where the defense jumped offsides.

Makes sense- that's probably what's throwing me.

Also there was one call on Thanksgiving where one of our guys jumped offsides, didn't touch anyone, didn't appear to me that a lineman flinched and the ref blew the play dead and threw the flag for "encroachment" even though the ball was never snapped.

Yep- that's also one that got me going, and contributed to me thinking I was taking crazy pills, because I couldn't figure out why our player wasn't allowed to try to get back onsides.

[mykc14]

Well, if your summary is accurate, nothing, because that mirrors my knowledge of it, too.

However, we've had numerous false start calls where an opposing D-lineman would jump and Okung or Britt would move, and I'd think to myself "Ok, cool down- there must be some circumstance under which the o-lineman can't move regardless of the D jumping."

ahh, I see what your saying basically your understanding everything but the refs are screwing things up.

[mykc14]

I'm going to assume Burrton is confused about the rule mainly because in the last few games I've seen a few flags where the ref called it encroachment but it was actually one of the other three infractions. Also there was one call on Thanksgiving where one of our guys jumped offsides, didn't touch anyone, didn't appear to me that a lineman flinched and the ref blew the play dead and threw the flag for "encroachment" even though the ball was never snapped. Unless I just missed a flinch by an offensive lineman (entirely possible) that shouldn't have been a penalty at all.

Yeah I see what your saying, that makes sense. There have been a few plays similar to this for us, on both sides of the ball, that make you put your hands up and say 'What, am I missing something?' Only to watch the replay and see that your not missing something at all. The funny thing is I can understand when that happens on action plays where there may be some confusion as to what actually happened but pre-snap penalties are usually cut and dry, but it has happened on more than a few pre-snap plays as well this year, weird stuff.

[burrrton]

ahh, I see what your saying basically your understanding everything but the refs are screwing things up.

A little of everything, I think- what Kal pointed out makes sense (that our o-line moving when a guy not over them jumps could be called a false-start), but reflecting, I don't think the 'jumping' d-lineman was ever more than a man away, so I'm not sure how the ref could have decided our o-lineman didn't intend to block the guy.

Eh, anyway...

[Hawktawk]

LOL RD welcome over to the dark side..........I remember some folks in here getting all lathered up about how nice it was of the league to admit not one but 2 blown PI calls vs KC which may have cost Seattle a critical game. I said F em it isn't going to change anything. The next game we get a PI against Maxwell on a textbook play. Same game the refs refuse to call a false start on a running back even though he clearly moved and Seattle players reacted. Last week the OPI on Turbin WTF!! come on Denver would have 0 yards from scrimmage if that isn't a legal play.

Yeah there's been some boneheaded mistakes. Bennett come on man wait for the snap. O line hold your water dont jump.

But yeah there is a disparity, huge, and its the NO CALLS that cant be quantified on a stat sheet as they are subjective even when obvious. The nice thing is that this team is a tough as a 2 dollar steak. If they had been in XL they wouldn't have known how to act with that low number of lousy calls against them:-)

[burrrton]

Last week the OPI on Turbin WTF!! come on Denver would have 0 yards from scrimmage if that isn't a legal play.

And just to be clear- nobody around Seattle is arguing Turbin's pick should have been ignored because Denver gets away with it all the time.

Denver *does* make a living with the rub/pick play, but you can't run a pick play with the inside receiver going in and the outside receiver going out, which is what we did!

It was a call that made absolutely no sense, and it sure as h3ll looks like they had simply decided they were going to call *something* regardless- they just didn't realize how stupid they'd look pulling that one out of their ass.

(Pissed off about it? Me? Nooooooo... )

[monkey]

That "pick play" that actually wasn't a pick play at all, ticked me off so much I still grind my teeth just at your description of it.
It's one thing when they miss a call, or just get one wrong, it happens, but when they just seem hell-bent on throwing a flag, then flat out making up a rule to justify the stupid hanky?

[RiverDog]

LOL RD welcome over to the dark side..........I remember some folks in here getting all lathered up about how nice it was of the league to admit not one but 2 blown PI calls vs KC which may have cost Seattle a critical game. I said F em it isn't going to change anything. The next game we get a PI against Maxwell on a textbook play. Same game the refs refuse to call a false start on a running back even though he clearly moved and Seattle players reacted. Last week the OPI on Turbin WTF!! come on Denver would have 0 yards from scrimmage if that isn't a legal play.

Yeah there's been some boneheaded mistakes. Bennett come on man wait for the snap. O line hold your water dont jump.

But yeah there is a disparity, huge, and its the NO CALLS that cant be quantified on a stat sheet as they are subjective even when obvious. The nice thing is that this team is a tough as a 2 dollar steak. If they had been in XL they wouldn't have known how to act with that low number of lousy calls against them:-)

I don't think the issue is with the penalties that are called on us. Pete's teams are always heavily penalized, going back to his days at USC. We were the most heavily penalized last year. It's just one of those things we have to accept that is a downside of his management style, philosophy, or what ever. If you take our pre snap penalties, the ones that are easiest to call, down to the league average, our total would still be in the top 10 but wouldn't look nearly as bad, more like one might expect from a team that features an aggressive defense like ours. Pete doesn't seem to be too torqued at the refs for the overall number of flags we've drawn, either, with some obvious exceptions, like the Turbin OPI.

The issue is why aren't our opponents getting flagged more often than they are. A lot of that question can be answered by what seems to me to be pretty solid evidence that predominantly running teams tend to draw fewer flags, and we are 2nd in rushing attempts and last in passing attempts. But it's a 2 to 1 margin, which is a huge gap. At this point in the season, there's a large enough sample size that it would tend to rule out a coincidence, why some of the worst offending teams commit penalties until they play us.

For example, Denver is the 3rd highest offender in the league, picking up 8.42 penalties a game. When they played us, they had 4. The Redskins rank 5th in the league, averaging nearly 8 penalties a game but when they played us, they get flagged just 3 times. St. Louis is in the top 10 in penalties getting 7.58 a game, yet when they play us, they picked up just 2. The Niners picked up less than half their average penalty rate. Teams don't just get penalized less when they play us, they get penalized WAY less. I'm not making excuses and heaven knows that I'm not floating some sort of moonbat conspiracy theory. But there is a lot of 'splaining that needs to be done. The fact that we're run orientated explains some but not nearly enough of that 2 to 1 margin. Something else has to be at work.

Perhaps if a whole bunch of 12's started throwing out some of these facts for all to see that maybe some of it will start to get into the heads of the league and through them to the refs. That's why I'm speaking out.

[Seahawks4Ever]

One penalty that really irked me was a few weeks ago when Wilson was flagged for illegal grounding. Mike Carey the former Ref. was in the booth and kept saying that the "fact" that our receiver seemed to have run the wrong route would not be taken in to account by the officials so the call was correct. BUT! That is NOT what happened, our receiver didn't run the wrong route, he slipped, then he recovered and then proceeded to the sideline and was only a few steps away from the pass when it sailed out of bounds. The head coach for the other team then started making gyrations and yelling at the officials who then threw the grounding flag. What got me was the even though he had slipped our receiver WAS in the area of the pass but RW was flagged anyhow. We ended up winning the game but at the time that flag could have been crucial.
And, you are right, so many times I have seen an opposing QB throw away the ball when the closest receiver was way further away from the ball than our guy was or if the QB was out of the pocket his pass fell way short of making it back to the LOS but again, no grounding flag. Oh, and it IS a conspiracy. The NFL and the networks are just dying to see the Cowboys back in the Super Bowl and if it is against the Broncos or the Patriots even better. Oh, they would be happy if it is the Packers and the Broncos or Patriots too.

[HumanCockroach]

The thing about that particular penalty IMHO that was ludicrous, was there was NO pressure, in order for an intentional grounding call to be called in the FIRST place, the QB HAS to be under duress per the NFL's black and white rules. Whether the receiver slipped, ran the wrong route or decided to get a hotdog is completely irrelevant, unless the QB happens to be under duress ( which on this particular play wasn't close to happening) otherwise every single time a QB airmailed a timing throw it would indeed be "intentional grounding" or when the ball is wet and flutters out of bounds. Simply isn't POSSIBLE to be grounding without ALL criteria being met, and the MOST crucial and FIRST requirement is that the QB is under duress.

How many times have we seen a QB that is actually under duress fire the ball out of the back of the endzone, twenty feet above a receivers head? To many to count. How many times have we seen that flag thrown?

[savvyman]

There is absolutely no doubt that the NFL and the Ref's have a Bias against the Hawks.

All you have to do is look at the evidence over the past 31 games.

[RiverDog]

There is absolutely no doubt that the NFL and the Ref's have a Bias against the Hawks.

All you have to do is look at the evidence over the past 31 games.

That's the ONLY way I will believe in a bias, ie if one can present factual information based on a very large sample size that rules out all other reasonable explanations, and in this case, I do think there is a very strong case indicating a bias.

Stats don't lie, only statisticians tell lies.

[Hawktawk]

I don't think the issue is with the penalties that are called on us. Pete's teams are always heavily penalized, going back to his days at USC. We were the most heavily penalized last year. It's just one of those things we have to accept that is a downside of his management style, philosophy, or what ever. If you take our pre snap penalties, the ones that are easiest to call, down to the league average, our total would still be in the top 10 but wouldn't look nearly as bad, more like one might expect from a team that features an aggressive defense like ours. Pete doesn't seem to be too torqued at the refs for the overall number of flags we've drawn, either, with some obvious exceptions, like the Turbin OPI.

The issue is why aren't our opponents getting flagged more often than they are. A lot of that question can be answered by what seems to me to be pretty solid evidence that predominantly running teams tend to draw fewer flags, and we are 2nd in rushing attempts and last in passing attempts. But it's a 2 to 1 margin, which is a huge gap. At this point in the season, there's a large enough sample size that it would tend to rule out a coincidence, why some of the worst offending teams commit penalties until they play us.

For example, Denver is the 3rd highest offender in the league, picking up 8.42 penalties a game. When they played us, they had 4. The Redskins rank 5th in the league, averaging nearly 8 penalties a game but when they played us, they get flagged just 3 times. St. Louis is in the top 10 in penalties getting 7.58 a game, yet when they play us, they picked up just 2. The Niners picked up less than half their average penalty rate. Teams don't just get penalized less when they play us, they get penalized WAY less. I'm not making excuses and heaven knows that I'm not floating some sort of moonbat conspiracy theory. But there is a lot of 'splaining that needs to be done. The fact that we're run orientated explains some but not nearly enough of that 2 to 1 margin. Something else has to be at work.

As I said RD its the NO CALLS, ie plays called against Seattle but not opponents. That's what it was in XL. Thats what it is now. Every team commits penalties. But ONE properly timed call or no call can change a game, like a no call on Baldwins PI on the KC goal line on 4th down.

For whatever reason it seems the refs want to give Seattle's opponents an edge, a head start. I dont know if its the bully syndrome or something more nefarious at work like Goodell hates us and hes so honest I trust he wouldn't do anything about it:(:( If he will lie about other things to enhance the "brand" he would manipulate results for the same end result.

[RiverDog]

As I said RD its the NO CALLS, ie plays called against Seattle but not opponents. That's what it was in XL. Thats what it is now. Every team commits penalties. But ONE properly timed call or no call can change a game, like a no call on Baldwins PI on the KC goal line on 4th down.

For whatever reason it seems the refs want to give Seattle's opponents an edge, a head start. I dont know if its the bully syndrome or something more nefarious at work like Goodell hates us and hes so honest I trust he wouldn't do anything about it:(:( If he will lie about other things to enhance the "brand" he would manipulate results for the same end result.

I'm not going the same route you are on this issue. What I think is at work is that our reputation has preceded us, that traditionally we are a very heavily penalized team and we got a lot of press over our defensive style of play, even had an interpretation of the rules attributed to us, and that it's a self fulfilling prophecy, ie the refs expect Seattle to commit a lot of penalites, and lookie there, I see a penalty! I'm OK with that kind of scrutiny so long as the same degree applies to both teams.

But as the facts I've shown clearly proves, that intense scrutiny doesn't apply to our opponents. There's no way that our opponents, from the hapless Redskins to the penalty prone Broncos, can change their style of play in one game to where they commit less than half and sometimes as few as 25% of the penalties they've accrued in their games both before and after they play us. It's as if the refs decide that they need a break from all that intense examination of us and take off their eye glasses, rub their eyes, stretch their arms and give off a big yawn when it involves keeping a watchful eye on our opponent's behavior.

IMO the most logical explanation for the discrepancy in penalties is that it is a psychological mindset of the refs, one that they are not aware of, and it has caused them to lose their objectivity. That's why we need to bring this issue to the forefront. We need to get the facts out there in a concise, objective manner that doesn't sound whiney or crybaby like, such as your "Goodell hates us" line. The refs do not live in a vacuum, and if enough people start talking about it, they will hear it.

[Hawktawk]

I'm not going the same route you are on this issue. What I think is at work is that our reputation has preceded us, that traditionally we are a very heavily penalized team and we got a lot of press over our defensive style of play, even had an interpretation of the rules attributed to us, and that it's a self fulfilling prophecy, ie the refs expect Seattle to commit a lot of penalites, and lookie there, I see a penalty! I'm OK with that kind of scrutiny so long as the same degree applies to both teams.

But as the facts I've shown clearly proves, that intense scrutiny doesn't apply to our opponents. There's no way that our opponents, from the hapless Redskins to the penalty prone Broncos, can change their style of play in one game to where they commit less than half and sometimes as few as 25% of the penalties they've accrued in their games both before and after they play us. It's as if the refs decide that they need a break from all that intense examination of us and take off their eye glasses, rub their eyes, stretch their arms and give off a big yawn when it involves keeping a watchful eye on our opponent's behavior.



But as the facts I've shown clearly proves, that intense scrutiny doesn't apply to our opponents. There's no way that our opponents, from the hapless Redskins to the penalty prone Broncos, can change their style of play in one game to where they commit less than half and sometimes as few as 25% of the penalties they've accrued in their games both before and after they play us. It's as if the refs decide that they need a break from all that intense examination of us and take off their eye glasses, rub their eyes, stretch their arms and give off a big yawn when it involves keeping a watchful eye on our opponent's behavior.

IMO the most logical explanation for the discrepancy in penalties is that it is a psychological mindset of the refs, one that they are not aware of, and it has caused them to lose their objectivity. That's why we need to bring this issue to the forefront. We need to get the facts out there in a concise, objective manner that doesn't sound whiney or crybaby like, such as your "Goodell hates us" line. The refs do not live in a vacuum, and if enough people start talking about it, they will hear it.[/quote]

You say you aren't going my route while making my point for me. Listen its naive to believe there is no coordination involved with all the undeniable evidence of bias. Goodells a provable liar on multiple occasions and his body language and comments prior to and during the Super bowl made his bias towards Denver extremely clear. Then he and his cronies invented some anti LOB rules and hung the Hawks with a ridiculous front and back loaded schedule and one home prime time game as a reward for being the champs and best fans in the NFL. I am also very wary of the replay "mother ship" command center in NYC. Now Blandino and the boys have their tentacles on every game, every play,every replay. I see that as a problem and a vehicle that can easily be abused. I dont trust this league one bit.They threw XL to the Stealers and they have been doing their level best to hold this team down. Facts are facts.

[RiverDog]

You say you aren't going my route while making my point for me. Listen its naive to believe there is no coordination involved with all the undeniable evidence of bias. Goodells a provable liar on multiple occasions and his body language and comments prior to and during the Super bowl made his bias towards Denver extremely clear. Then he and his cronies invented some anti LOB rules and hung the Hawks with a ridiculous front and back loaded schedule and one home prime time game as a reward for being the champs and best fans in the NFL. I am also very wary of the replay "mother ship" command center in NYC. Now Blandino and the boys have their tentacles on every game, every play,every replay. I see that as a problem and a vehicle that can easily be abused. I dont trust this league one bit.They threw XL to the Stealers and they have been doing their level best to hold this team down. Facts are facts.

Jezus, Hawktalk. Gooddell and his cronies intentionally backloaded our schedule? The entire league plays most of their divisional games in the last half of the season. Take a look at the full December schedule and note how many divisional games there are. And even if they did, how does that put us at a disadvantage? And how the heck does having just one Prime Time home game affect the result on the field?

Scheduling is one of the fairest things about the NFL. Heck, we haven't even been made to go across the pond yet let alone have to surrender a home game for it like many teams have.

That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about NOT doing. Whining and crying about things that have absolutely no bearing on the problem and that are impossible to prove.

[savvyman]

Not going to bother with statistics - I did that last year - I prepared a spreadsheet and kept it updated and posted on the old PI forums for several weeks in a row - - The spreadsheet last year showed that the Seahawk's were penalized at a rate near 100% higher than the opposition and also had more penalties than the opposing team near every single game.

This season has been a continuation of the same.

The Referees are not these "Moral and ethical saints" -- They are employees of the NFL - they will follow orders of the ruling management of this organization. The ruling management (ie Goodell and his lackeys) of the NFL - from what I can tell - are a weaselly bunch -- If they say to their employees that they think the Seahawk's act in or play a style that is against their marketed image of the NFL and the Front office does not like it then you can be sure that these lackeys who dress up as referees each Sunday will comply with the front office direction - just like any employee who works for a group of weasels must do.

And acts like what Sherman and Baldwin did recently just pisses off the Weaselly front office NFL cronies even more. And yes you can be sure that the referees are bringing the NFL front office biases and objectives to the field each time they suit up.

[RiverDog]

I think you may be misreading the point. This is not about the number of penalties called on the Seahawks. It's about the penalties called on Seahawk opponents.

Seahawk opponents have been flagged significantly less than the opponents of any other teams. So for example say the Oakland Raiders get flagged 8 times per game but then when they play the Seahawks they only get flagged 3 times. Then the next week and the rest of the season the Raiders go right back to averaging 8 penalties a game.

Plausible that the Raiders just happened to have a really good week with penalties that week right? Only that's happening with every team. Pretty much every team Seattle plays coincidentally has one of their lowest penalty totals of the year when they play the Seahawks.

One team being flagged a lot can be attributed to lack of discipline and the culture of that particular team. But it's tough to come up with a plausible explanation for the imbalance in opponents penalties that doesn't include some kind of bias.

Oh and Riv I mainly didn't want to post here because inevitably the argument against it will be, "stop whining".

Exactly. If there is one attribute about Pete Carroll-coached teams that cannot be argued about, it's that they draw a lot of flags. We've had many a discussion as to why, from an aggressive style of play to a lack of team discipline. That's not why I started the thread.

I've never been comfortable rationalizing penalties. It goes against my creed that one should avoid making excuses and accept responsibility for their own failures. I don't accept excuses from my kids and I don't accept them from my associates, unless they can give me a damn good reason to go along with it.

It has only been in these last few weeks when the rate of penalties against our opponents got to such a point that there is no longer a reasonable explanation for it. Like you said, it is inconceivable that a heavily penalized team will suddenly cure their bad habits on the weekend they play us then just as suddenly return to their same old bad habits in their very next game. It doesn't work that way. And it's not like its an anomaly that has happened just once or even twice. It's a regular occurrence.

[HumanCockroach]

It has only been in these last few weeks when the rate of penalties against our opponents got to such a point that there is no longer a reasonable explanation for

I'm not so sure how accurate that is. There was obscene discrepancies in the Washington, Dallas, SD games as well. Seems like you could go back quite a ways if you really desired to. I am not sure why the opponent of Seattle plays their "cleanest" game of the season always on the days they face the Seahawks, just know they do.

IMHO it isn't some sort of master plan, honestly, IMHO it shows the amount of "respect" the refs have for Seattle on a subconcious level. IMO the refs believe Seattle is such a "superior" team, that they "even" the playing field, at least subconciously by "missing" calls on opponents while "finding" penalties on Seattle ( usually during a critical scoring drive) ...

The refs "believe" how superior Seattle is to their opponent and want to "keep it close" at all times. Honestly, all these blown calls IMHO will HELP Seattle once they get into the playoffs. At that point I would be surprised to see refs continue to penalise Seattle at a 2 to 1 or more ratio. Lot's of fans watching those games. Misuse in the regular season is one thing, national recognistion of the same, is quite another ( see XL for an example)

[RiverDog]

I'm not so sure how accurate that is. There was obscene discrepancies in the Washington, Dallas, SD games as well. Seems like you could go back quite a ways if you really desired to. I am not sure why the opponent of Seattle plays their "cleanest" game of the season always on the days they face the Seahawks, just know they do.

IMHO it isn't some sort of master plan, honestly, IMHO it shows the amount of "respect" the refs have for Seattle on a subconcious level. IMO the refs believe Seattle is such a "superior" team, that they "even" the playing field, at least subconciously by "missing" calls on opponents while "finding" penalties on Seattle ( usually during a critical scoring drive) ...

The refs "believe" how superior Seattle is to their opponent and want to "keep it close" at all times. Honestly, all these blown calls IMHO will HELP Seattle once they get into the playoffs. At that point I would be surprised to see refs continue to penalise Seattle at a 2 to 1 or more ratio. Lot's of fans watching those games. Misuse in the regular season is one thing, national recognistion of the same, is quite another ( see XL for an example)

Perhaps I should revise that. There wasn't as large of a sample size after those earlier games to rule out a simply anomaly as a possible explanation for the discrepancy, and to be honest, I wasn't paying that close of attention. After some discussion in another forum, I started digging into the issue just last week and what I discovered was really eye opening.

[savvyman]

Not going to bother with statistics - I did that last year - I prepared a spreadsheet and kept it updated and posted on the old PI forums for several weeks in a row - - The spreadsheet last year showed that the Seahawk's were penalized at a rate near 100% higher than the opposition and also had more penalties than the opposing team near every single game.

This season has been a continuation of the same.

The Referees are not these "Moral and ethical saints" -- They are employees of the NFL - they will follow orders of the ruling management of this organization. The ruling management (ie Goodell and his lackeys) of the NFL - from what I can tell - are a weaselly bunch -- If they say to their employees that they think the Seahawk's act in or play a style that is against their marketed image of the NFL and the Front office does not like it then you can be sure that these lackeys who dress up as referees each Sunday will comply with the front office direction - just like any employee who works for a group of weasels must do.

And acts like what Sherman and Baldwin did recently just pisses off the Weaselly front office NFL cronies even more. And yes you can be sure that the referees are bringing the NFL front office biases and objectives to the field each time they suit up.

Bump

https://vine.co/v/Or5jHYrXF5t

[RiverDog]

I guess I don't understand. Is two refs giving each other a fist bump some sort of proof of a conspiracy?

[HumanCockroach]

Suppose it gives the appearance of celebrating a Bronco's TD.

[RiverDog]

Suppose it gives the appearance of celebrating a Bronco's TD.

I'll admit that it is a bit unusual to see refs doing something like that immediately after the completion of a play, but with 70,000 joyous fans celebrating in unison, it seems excusable to me for a ref to be affected just for a moment by the electricity being generated at that particular instant and for them to forget who they are. It does not imply something sinister.