Bailey and Lewis vs the "All-Pros"

[jshawaii22]

I know that over the great years of PC, his mantra has always been 'Always Compete' and 'No Guaranteed Positions' have been a refreshing change to the typical view of 'once a starter, always a starter'. We've seen this from year #1 as the draft picks, especially in the Defensive backs (Sherman, Kam and Browner) just basically outplayed the incumbents when they had the opportunity and of course with Russell. (Mike Holmgren was the opposite, to the detriment of the team.)

So why do I get the feeling that Okung and Max will automatically get their jobs back, even though it sure looks to me, and I've watched the last half of this years games at least 2-3 times each, that right now, with a couple of starts under them, those young OL's, Bailey and Lewis (and to be honest JeanPierre, too)
will not keep their jobs, even though it looks like the younguns are outplaying the old pros. I wouldn't of said this 6 - 8 games ago, but especially Bailey... he now looks good. He and Carp are one BIG BUTT pair of O LIneman.

My observation is Okung is just not moving well past his first step and Max has lost not only a step but it seems a lot of upper body strength.

Would you take out a pair of All-Pros or is their presence and experience more important coming to the playoffs?

js

[Zorn76]

js - Well said.

If nothing else, even with a small sample size to draw from, Bailey has shown that he is more than capable of replacing Okung if he's gone in FA in the near future. I definitely don't think he's worth top dollar for a LT. Not even close, really. I think we can allocate our cap space to better use elsewhere.

Unger is frustrating, to some degree, because he seems to get dinged up pretty easily. For that reason, I think JeanPierre is a considerable priority in FA at the end of the season. We were lucky to get him back this year, imo.

Either way, OL remains a problem that can't be ignored next spring. Try, try again, until we get it right. Britt is going through the usual growing pains, but there is some measurable upside there. We've also learned you can never have enough depth up front.

[NorthHawk]

Sometimes exceptionally talented players don't work together as well as lesser talented players. It's that "chemistry" that people talk about where the sum is greater than the parts.

Maybe that's what might happen here to a degree on our OL, or just maybe the Cards DL didn't play well on Sunday.
I think it might be a good plan to have Okung as a backup.

[HumanCockroach]

Okung is signed for one more season at a much more reasonable rate, they won't be letting him go for at least this next year, that said, if he somehow loses his spot to Bailey, I don't see him staying to be a backup, just don't see him wanting or accepting that role moving forward, and certainly not in the price range Seattle looks to pay their backup lineman. Lots of things could be done, if Bailey performs better, and Britt doesn't advance like hoped, or comes in out of shape like Bowie, they could try to convert him to the right side or something like that. No one knows at this point if Bailey is an "upgrade" based on a single game, or if he can stay healthy ( Okungs greatest issue) so it's a waiting game.

Hopefully they'll draft at least two additional lineman, and add at least two more, and let competition dictate how they move forward. Wanting and expecting drastic improvements are two entirely different aspects, and while I hope for the former, I certainly never expect it to come to fruition.

[jshawaii22]

HC, this is Okung's fifth year as a pro. Without a new contract, wouldn't 5 years be the end of his rookie deal?

js

[mykc14]

HC, this is Okung's fifth year as a pro. Without a new contract, wouldn't 5 years be the end of his rookie deal?

js

Nope he signed a 6 year deal as a rookie, ET only signed for 5 years. His cap number next years drops to 7 mil (it is 11 mil this year), which puts the Hawks in an excelent position to see how he plays next year. Honestly I know there has been a lot of poeple who have been unipressed with Okung but IMO he's actually been pretty good when he's been healthy, which is obviously a huge question mark with him. If you look at LT play in the NFL it hasn't been great and you could do much much worse than him. He is a very good run blocker and is actually good pass blocking as well. They almost never give him help, even when he is blocking a premier pass rusher. IMO he is a pro-bowl level LT (when healthy). With all that being said I don't think you can afford to sign him as a top tier LT because he has missed so many games to injury. It will be interesting to see how his contract works out but the good news is we are in a really good position with him, cap wise, to wait and see if he can actually stay healthy.

[NorthHawk]

I was thinking this game Okung as the backup as he isn't very healthy now and if we can get by for another week without him it would help him a lot. It's not just his bruised lung, but also his torn labrum that limits his effectiveness. The extra time off won't help the labrum much, but it probably helps the lung issue.

If Bailey shows well, let them compete in TC for the starting role.

[jshawaii22]

That's definitely is Okung biggest problem... injuries to just about every part of his body. When he's truly 'healthy' he's top 5 and on an island, for sure.

Maybe a better question then is, not looking past this year, what do we do in the near term? Start him as soon as he's ready or let Bailey continue to start and see if his progression over the last half of the year is real or not. The AZ game was the best line play in 2 months against one of the best D's in the NFL.

js

[monkey]

If nothing else, even with a small sample size to draw from, Bailey has shown that he is more than capable of replacing Okung if he's gone in FA in the near future.

Here's a thought: releasing Marshawn this next off season would save approximately 7 million, but would cost...well it would cost us BEAST MODE! The heart and soul of the offense.
Letting Russell Okung walk this next off season would save approximately 5 million and would cost...well, depth more than anything really. I like Okung, and I think he's valuable, and when healthy, more than capable of playing at a pro bowl level, but he's still fairly easily replaceable.
Lynch...well, he may very well be the most irreplaceable RB I've ever seen. Just think back to all those times when he should have been tackled behind the LOS for a loss, but simply REFUSED to be taken down. Think of all those negative plays that he turned into something less negative if not positive, and then tell me there's another back in the NFL who does that.
Actually, don't bother trying to tell me that, because there's not. There are other truly great backs, sure, there are faster, more elusive backs even, but there's not one other RB in the NFL today, (maybe ever for that matter) with the combination of balance and speed, with power, ferocity and determination that Lynch displays week after week.

Point is, letting Okung go would make keeping Lynch a lot easier, and maybe the best move the front office could make regarding those two.

[HumanCockroach]

I was thinking this game Okung as the backup as he isn't very healthy now and if we can get by for another week without him it would help him a lot. It's not just his bruised lung, but also his torn labrum that limits his effectiveness. The extra time off won't help the labrum much, but it probably helps the lung issue.

If Bailey shows well, let them compete in TC for the starting role.

My mistake, I thought you were discussing long term plans. I agree, and honestly think an extra week for Okung and Unger would be extremely beneficial two fold, extra time to heal ( possible two full weeks) and allows Bailey more reps both in practice and game, that should Okung not be able to perform due to injury that can only help in the playoffs.

[Zorn76]

monkey - Good point and post.

Definitely had not looked at it that way, and I'm with you in terms of keeping Lynch, for sure. I think everybody would like to see that. Really curious how Lynch feels deep down about it all, because Lord knows he's not going to tell anybody, except maybe M-Rob:)

Seldom am I in favor of offering an extension to a RB who has more years behind him than in front of him, but I believe if there ever was an exception to that rule, it'd be Marshawn.

The key is, what does he think about staying? There's been rumors about him wanting to go to Oakland to finish out his career, but the Raiders already have a good young back in Latavius Murray, and Lynch will expect to be paid, while also likely having little desire to play as a 2nd stringer. Oakland is not poised to make a playoff run, so sighing Beast makes little sense in that regard as well.

There were plenty of questions re ML entering this season, with his back issues being chief among those concerns. He also turns 29 next April, and his style does lend itself to him being a prime candidate of hitting a wall of sorts at 30. Another variable is that he may simply be ready to hang 'em up sooner than anybody would think, especially after winning a SB ring to reach the peak of his NFL tenure.

I'd really love to see us make a legit attempt to keep him, though. That said, Seattle would be wise to draft another back in 2015. Michael and Turbin are decent runners, but we need to find another home run hitter to keep our run first approach in tact, IMO.

[jshawaii22]

On Lynch, I don't get it. Nothing he has done on the field or visible suggests that he's not 100% into the game and Seahawks. He's the same "Marshawn" that we have watched for the past few years. Has any of the negative this season come from his 'camp' or him?

Besides, his only other choice is to retire or try to 'force' the team. I can't believe the team wouldn't try to resign him to a 3 year deal, eating up his last year + 2 more.

I hate spammers..

[RiverDog]

Nope he signed a 6 year deal as a rookie, ET only signed for 5 years. His cap number next years drops to 7 mil (it is 11 mil this year), which puts the Hawks in an excelent position to see how he plays next year. Honestly I know there has been a lot of poeple who have been unipressed with Okung but IMO he's actually been pretty good when he's been healthy, which is obviously a huge question mark with him. If you look at LT play in the NFL it hasn't been great and you could do much much worse than him. He is a very good run blocker and is actually good pass blocking as well. They almost never give him help, even when he is blocking a premier pass rusher. IMO he is a pro-bowl level LT (when healthy). With all that being said I don't think you can afford to sign him as a top tier LT because he has missed so many games to injury. It will be interesting to see how his contract works out but the good news is we are in a really good position with him, cap wise, to wait and see if he can actually stay healthy.

Okung's long term future is a real difficult question to answer. Even when he's healthy, he has not always played up to his Pro Bowl credentials. He's a penalty machine and I've seen DE's spin him around like a revolving door. But his run blocking has been pretty solid throughout. His overall play when he has been on the field hasn't been horrible, just inconsistent. And of course his injury history is a huge factor in his production.

As it stands now, we're between a bit of a rock and a hard spot. It is extremely unlikely that we could ever upgrade the position through the draft or FA and he's not worth top 5 LT money, which he could probably get from somewhere else if we're not willing to pony up. It's a good thing we have that extra year to make a decision. If Bailey continues to play like he did Sunday, it would make that decision a lot easier.

[NorthHawk]

I think most non HoF LTs have problems upon occasion even if they are pretty good players and a Pro Bowl selection once in their career. In my opinion, Okungs issues are from not staying healthy. This year it's the labrum, and other years it was lower body. My theory is these issues mean (and meant) he would have to get a jump on his opponent to get position early to make up for his impaired movement or strength caused by injuries and is causing his penalties.

I hope they draft a LT this year in any event even if it's to play when RO is injured. He would eventually be Okungs replacement, but get playing time at LT this next year. One guy to look for is Cameron Erving from Florida State who fits Cables profile as he has played all along the line in college and been considered one of the best OL players at each position. He's now playing center and is thought to be the best in the SEC. Last year he played LT and was thought to be an early round pick there, but stayed in school. He won the award this year for the best blocker in the SEC.

[RiverDog]

Okung has been injured so often that it's pretty hard to tell whether or not he is completely recovered. It seems like he's always just returning from an injury, so if he plays poorly, one can rationalize his poor play because he wasn't 'fully healthy.'

I don't think you can rationalize his penalties due to his injuries, though. This season, he ranks 3rd in the league in false starts even though his playing time has been limited.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/fal ... ew=players

[HumanCockroach]

You don't think being slowed by an injury would create a player attempting to get a jump or holding? Interesting.

[RiverDog]

You don't think being slowed by an injury would create a player attempting to get a jump or holding? Interesting.

Which injury do you think causes his false starts?

[HumanCockroach]

Pick any that slow his movement. Any that would create an issue with balance, speed, angle, or blocking base. Say a toe injury, or multiple ankle injuries or something silly like that. Maybe an issue reaching which necessitates being in front of a pass rusher, to aleviate the need to do so, something trivial like a torn labrum, you know minor things.

The NFL may be a "game of inches" but it is also a game of milliseconds and being dinged, can and does change play levels ( look at Chancellor early in the year, if you need a more defined example) .

[RiverDog]

Pick any that slow his movement. Any that would create an issue with balance, speed, angle, or blocking base. Say a toe injury, or multiple ankle injuries or something silly like that. Maybe an issue reaching which necessitates being in front of a pass rusher, to aleviate the need to do so, something trivial like a torn labrum, you know minor things.

The NFL may be a "game of inches" but it is also a game of milliseconds and being dinged, can and does change play levels ( look at Chancellor early in the year, if you need a more defined example) .

Slow his movement on a pre snap penalty when he's not supposed to be moving at all?

[HumanCockroach]

LOL. Ok RD. Whatever, a false start isn't always something that is necessitated by a lineman being "stupid" a player that needs to be faster to get to the necessary spot to maintain a block, because he is slowed due to an injury ( or multiple injuries) might be prone to "anticipating" the snap count and a false start penalty. But you're more than welcome to the " the only reason for a false start ever, is stupidity" thought process all you want.

Let me ask you this though, would you PREFER that those false starts were holds instead? Or worse yet, sacks and shots on the QB? LMFAO.

[RiverDog]

LOL. Ok RD. Whatever, a false start isn't always something that is necessitated by a lineman being "stupid" a player that needs to be faster to get to the necessary spot to maintain a block, because he is slowed due to an injury ( or multiple injuries) might be prone to "anticipating" the snap count and a false start penalty. But you're more than welcome to the " the only reason for a false start ever, is stupidity" thought process all you want.

Let me ask you this though, would you PREFER that those false starts were holds instead? Or worse yet, sacks and shots on the QB? LMFAO.

I guess I'm not following you. Are you saying that he's jumping offsides because due to his injured toe, he doesn't think he can get out on the DE quick enough?

FYI although it's been a long time ago,I've played OL myself, and with the exception of the crowd noise, I don't think much has changed as far as a lineman jumping offsides. It's entirely mental and has nothing to do with injuries or physical ability/inability. Communication, quarterback cadence, defense jumping around, forgetting the snap count, audibles, high strung/getting keyed up, etc, are the types of things that influences false starts. It's a matter of mental discipline and something that can be conditioned.

[HumanCockroach]

I was unaware you played OL in the NFL against premier pass rushers, I suppose I'll defer to your experience at that level.

[RiverDog]

I was unaware you played OL in the NFL against premier pass rushers, I suppose I'll defer to your experience at that level.

Thanks!

[Anthony]

I guess I'm not following you. Are you saying that he's jumping offsides because due to his injured toe, he doesn't think he can get out on the DE quick enough?

FYI although it's been a long time ago,I've played OL myself, and with the exception of the crowd noise, I don't think much has changed as far as a lineman jumping offsides. It's entirely mental and has nothing to do with injuries or physical ability/inability. Communication, quarterback cadence, defense jumping around, forgetting the snap count, audibles, high strung/getting keyed up, etc, are the types of things that influences false starts. It's a matter of mental discipline and something that can be conditioned.

Seems to me if you know the count, you should not go off sides. Never played OL so I will defer to your experience here.

[RiverDog]

Seems to me if you know the count, you should not go off sides. Never played OL so I will defer to your experience here.

It's not that simple. It happens to the best linemen. Occasionally they all jump offsides at one point or another. Much of it is a response to external stimuli, including crowd noise, movement by the defense, a change in the quarterback's rhythm or cadence. Some of it seems to be almost involuntary. Sprinters will jump the gun even in complete silence.

It's a matter of mental discipline to stay motionless in your stance while still being on a razor's edge and ready to explode while your mind interprets other things like play changes or what the defense is doing. It is a coachable trait and can be conditioned with repetition. We lead the league in pre snap penalties and IMO at least part of that has to fall back on our coaching.

[Anthony]

It's not that simple. It happens to the best linemen. Occasionally they all jump offsides at one point or another. Much of it is a response to external stimuli, including crowd noise, movement by the defense, a change in the quarterback's rhythm or cadence. Some of it seems to be almost involuntary. Sprinters will jump the gun even in complete silence.

It's a matter of mental discipline to stay motionless in your stance while still being on a razor's edge and ready to explode while your mind interprets other things like play changes or what the defense is doing. It is a coachable trait and can be conditioned with repetition. We lead the league in pre snap penalties and IMO at least part of that has to fall back on our coaching.

Like I said, I never played oline and everything you say make sense to me, so I will bow to your knowledge on this one. And thanks doe clarifying.

[jshawaii22]

Especially Okung seems to have at least 1 or 2 a game. RD, in your estimation, does it matter more if you are going to run or pass block? If lack of good mental preparation takes care of the offensive woes, how do you explain 'lining up in the neutral zone', two plays in a row?

js

[RiverDog]

Especially Okung seems to have at least 1 or 2 a game. RD, in your estimation, does it matter more if you are going to run or pass block? If lack of good mental preparation takes care of the offensive woes, how do you explain 'lining up in the neutral zone', two plays in a row?

js

Good question. I would guess running plays would be more difficult as you are in a 3 point stance most of the time and that it would be easier to maintain your position in a two point passing stance. But back in my playing days, linemen never lined up in a 2 point stance, run or pass, so I couldn't say for sure if that's the case or not.

Lining up in the neutral zone is inexcusable and I have no explanation other than simply not paying close enough attention. Some refs used to give you a clue if you looked at them and would motion for you to move back if you were too close.

Lined up in the neutral zone twice in a row? Who did that?

[jshawaii22]

You were at the damn game! Maybe it was a beer break... but Michael Bennett. They had a great camera on the play so it was very obvious the first time and then you wanted to throw something at the TV when it was exactly the same camera angle showed the same head bobbing past the football. Pete tried to keep smiling, but you could tell he was pissed.

js

[HumanCockroach]

Actually the second time he was further offsides which baffled me. Game of inches, and players try to gain any advantage they can. Wasn't the first time a player attempted to gain that advantage, won't be the last. Same reason some lineman on the offensive line false start, often that outside foot moving prior to the snap doesn't get called, depends on the refs is the only thing I can come up with, same as any other infraction, sometimes it is called, sometimes it's not.

[RiverDog]

You were at the damn game! Maybe it was a beer break... but Michael Bennett. They had a great camera on the play so it was very obvious the first time and then you wanted to throw something at the TV when it was exactly the same camera angle showed the same head bobbing past the football. Pete tried to keep smiling, but you could tell he was pissed.

js

Geez, I didn't realize that was Bennett on both plays! Man, did we draw the penalties in the first half.

I was researching penalties per player today when gathering info about Okung's false start and saw that Bennett was at or near the top of the pack for defensive offsides. On my replay, I fast forwarded through most of the first half except for our scoring plays so I didn't notice it then, either. I'll have to go back and re-watch it. I'll have to message my buddies that went to the game with me and see if they missed that, too.

Oh, and by the way... When I attend a game in person, I drink my fair share of beer before and/or after a game, but never during. It might cause me to miss something like consecutive offsides on the same player.

[jshawaii22]

In drag racing, you can be slower down the track and win, as long as you're first off the line. The correlation to football is the same.
I can't see an advantage of being 2' closer to the opponent at the snap vs being quicker to your opponent at the snap. Quicker off the line would allow you to have more power at the time of impact, too.

[savvyman]

Geez, I didn't realize that was Bennett on both plays! Man, did we draw the penalties in the first half.

I was researching penalties per player today when gathering info about Okung's false start and saw that Bennett was at or near the top of the pack for defensive offsides. On my replay, I fast forwarded through most of the first half except for our scoring plays so I didn't notice it then, either. I'll have to go back and re-watch it. I'll have to message my buddies that went to the game with me and see if they missed that, too.

Oh, and by the way... When I attend a game in person, I drink my fair share of beer before and/or after a game, but never during. It might cause me to miss something like consecutive offsides on the same player.

As you and everyone at the Shack already knows - Michael Bennett has had an exceptional season. His "Aggressiveness Penalties" are easily forgiven when you look at his dominating performance for the year. Here is what one of the top sites for rating NFL Players had this to say about Michael Bennett performance for this season:

From Pro Football Focus:

>>>>>The Seahawks’ Michael Bennett has been quietly having a strong season. He has the third-highest pass rush grade among 4-3 defensive ends at +19.7 and his 11.7 Pass Rush Productivity rating ranks fifth. Bennett is another example of why sacks don’t tell the whole story when it comes to pass rushers. He only has six, but leads all defensive ends with 68 total pressures. <<<<<<


https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/12/26/pff-preview-rams-seahawks-week-17/


>>>>>Stuffing the run was undervalued in this year’s selections. Bennett is Pro Football Focus’ (PFF) top rated 4-3 defensive end against the run and is also second among all defensive ends with 68 quarterback pressures (combined sacks, hurries and hits).<<<<<<

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/The-Pro-Bowl-snub-team-2745.html

I do note that the writers kinda contradict themselves a little but the net results is Bennett is at the top of the league against the run and in rushing the passer.

[RiverDog]

You won't hear me complain about Bennett in general. You're right, he's a key component in our defense and a huge contributor to our success of which I am very grateful for. But I won't excuse his lining up offsides. It's completely avoidable. If he jumps offisdes, that's one thing. But lining up in the neutral zone? No.

But as far as forgiving him for his penalties? Of course. We're winning, and he's a big reason why we are winning.