The Russia thing

[Hawktawk]

It appears the president trump thread is spreading like a virus into all sorts of discussions. That's cool and demonstrates the level of diversity and intelligent disagreement on this forum. But I'd really like this one to focus on the case for or against Russian interference and trump collusion.

Everyone who has been around a while knows how I feel about trump in general.

But setting that aside is he in bed with Russia? It is reported he is now under investigation for obstruction which is not surprising. It is also reported that Jarred Kushner is being looked at. Also VP pence has now retained outside council. Imo trump is in deep doo doo mainly self inflicted and lots of people are going down.

I won't burn all my thoughts on one post but I'd like to hear from his detractors and his defenders. What do you all think?

[burrrton]

But setting that aside is he in bed with Russia?

From what I've read? It doesn't look like it, at least not in a way that gets anyone to impeachment.

I've learned not to underestimate him, though, so I'm still watching.

[NorthHawk]

In bed with the Russians as in compromised?
I don't think so, but I do think he has some business dealings with some questionable Russian "financiers" which he wants to keep under wraps.
It's why he refuses to release his tax returns (along with not giving to charities like he said he did).

[RiverDog]

So far as I know, there has been no evidence yet discovered of the compromising of actual balloting by the Russian hackers and no evidence of any collusion by DJT or his surrogates to interfere with the election process. My understanding is that most of the damage was done to the voter data base, meaning that they compromised some people's names, addresses, age, and other biographical data, with the goal to create confusion and chaos.

But we'll see. It's a serious enough charge that it should be investigated, if nothing else to prevent the same thing from happening again.

[Largent80]

I hope he goes down like a $20 hooker in Bangkok.

[NorthHawk]

There is reason to be concerned, because our democratic system depends largely on the vote, and if it is compromised, then our country is compromised. The fear, to me, at least, is that he has borrowed too much from Russian banks to pay back, and that they may use that as pressure. His son reported recently, as in the last couple of years or so, that they don't worry about loans here because they have money from Russia.

It seems very likely that his family has been cozy with Putin and co. and that could lead to some interesting information in the future.

The Special Counsel seems like a good man with good experience, and has called in some strong support, with attorneys and investigators with a range of areas of expertise.

In my uninformed personal opinion, there is a whole bunch of info that has been uncovered that we and the press know nothing about.

Trumps lack of concern about the meddling is the biggest issue. For some reason he either doesn't get the big picture, doesn't care, or has some alternative reason to not concern himself with it.
According to some of the witnesses we have heard, the President only talked about himself and not the damage to the country should the Russians be more successful in the next election cycle. One
would think he would be asking what counter measures are being employed and how could he help to ensure the process is safe, but according to what we've heard he hasn't.

[RiverDog]

Trump's rants on Twitter are quite entertaining, to say the least. He seems quite comfortable playing the victim, comparing his being investigated with a lack of attention to Clinton's many dealings and inappropriate relationships with rival countries (in particular, China, and he does have a point), as if that makes what Trump did, or rather accused of doing, right. I don't feel a damn bit sorry for the S.O.B.

I don't want to see impeachment proceedings as it would be a long, drawn out process that would continue to divide the country and hurt both our national security interests as well as the stability of financial markets. But I would like to see this Administration side tracked and on the defensive so as to effectively give Trump a vasectomy and render his initiatives as moot points, at least until the mid term elections when perhaps the Dems can re-take the House and split the government.

[c_hawkbob]

Life imitating art ... who'd a thought a real life presidency would look so much like an extended SNL episode?

[RiverDog]

Life imitating art ... who'd a thought a real life presidency would look so much like an extended SNL episode?

LOL! Yea, SNL would be hard pressed to find someone as goofy as Trump is to stand in as their Prez. Even having Billy Carter as the brother of the Prez wasn't as funny as Trump is.

There's nothing you or me can do about him, so we might as well sit back and let ourselves be entertained.

[NorthHawk]

I'm still trying to figure out Trump and what drives him and his philosophy and stumbled upon some comments from writer Grant Cameron.
Here are some quotes by him that might reveal who Trump is (if you care). I think there might be a kernel of truth in some parts of what he says.

Quote
The Trump model of the world is the materialistic evolutionary model represented by the capitalist economic theory. It is a model where things are not one and connected but separate random objects in time and space.
It is a model dominated by competition as opposed to cooperation. This is a rape, pillage, and steal model, where the one with the most toys when he/she dies is considered the winner.

As opposed to the Clinton campaign slogan of stronger together, the Trump model is one where America uses every tactic at its disposal to win. The Mexicans, Chinese, Canadians, and other countries become competitors trying to steal
American jobs.

Trade deals designed to work together with other countries have to be ripped up or renegotiated to get a better deal for America. Military alliances are no more if America has to pay.
The new rule becomes an isolationist model where everyone is separate and must fend for themselves.

The Trump world is one of the blacks versus the police, brave Americans versus evil Arabs, and hard working capitalists versus lazy economy destroying socialists.
It is a world where race becomes a critical separating factor. Thus he picks as his political strategist, Stephen Bannon, who was called a “champion of racial division” by the Senate Minority leader.
Most significantly it is a world the new law of the land enables children a Middle School in Royal Oak, Michigan to chant “build the wall…build the wall” as their Latinos classmates cry and are forced to listen.

The Trump world is a world of perceived separation where it is me versus you, perceived good versus bad, rich versus poor, able versus disabled, strong versus weak. The successful enjoy and the unsuccessful suffer.
Even his campaign was operated on a principle of separation. Hillary, the media, and Republican leaders all became opponents who were trying to attack and destroy Trump.

In the end, the whole country was dragged into the separation view of the country.
The two political parties resorted to winning based on the evils of the opposition. Family members became pitted against each other, and the whole country is now in a pre-Syria condition.
The only thing that differs in the United States is that the two opposing groups have not started killing each other and they are doing in Syria.
end quote

I hope the shooting the other day isn't the start of it.

[Hawktawk]

Well as an update it is reported that Trump is now under investigation for obstruction of justice. His tweets confirm at a minimum he believes the report. His attorneys must be ripping their hair out.reportedly CIA director Coates and NSA director John Kelley were also approached about tamping down the investigation as well.

Many of my fellow shack dwellers see no evidence of collusion or real legal jeopardy . I have an alternate view. Trump rooted for wikileaks which is widely considered to be a tool of Russia Publicly many times,actually encouraged Russia itself on one occasion to hack Hillarys account. This was from the campaign stump, not some obscure back room meeting.

The day after Obama imposed sanctions on Russia (Flynn spoke by phone that same day to Kisliak) Trump called Putin "very smart" not to retaliate. He has consistently refused to criticize Putin or Russia and frankly has complimented him while bashing America "we have a lot of killers". To me the crime of collusion and aiding and abetting a sworn enemy of the USA is hiding in plain sight. Trump shows no interest in the unprecedented level of hacking now reported to have targeted voter records and electronic voting machines along with misinformation on social media. He calls it fake news and trashes his own justice and intelligence organizations.Comey testified he never asked about the progress of the investigation once in 9 meetings.

How is this not frankly treasonous behavior or at a minimum obstruction and collusion?

I think Trump is so outrageous, throwing bombs daily he has desensitised the general public to the point many shrug their shoulders, confused by the complexities of this scandal.

But Mueller means business. Hes not "out to get" Donald Trump. Hes out to hold him accountable for his actual known misdeeds and trashing of the intelligence community.
He can cry witch hunt all he wants but what the hell did he expect? He is the guy on twitter and on with Lester Holt admitting hes a witch.

I wonder if the guy really wants the job, I honestly do..... He cant have been this stupid and dysfunctional throughout his life but its as though he is exhibiting more outrageous behavior daily daring them to remove him so he can declare he was a victim of the deep state, unfairly targeted and go back to golfing.Then he will brag about his excellent record of accomplishment and his excellent VP pick.

[Largent80]

Rump TROLLED as a candidate and a large group of MORONS actually voted for him.

Now everyone has to pay the price. It's time for people to really pay attention to Congress and House elections which will be approaching. If any of them want to keep their seats they had better realize that smart people will be watching every move they make. It's long been overdue to get the McConnels etc. out of their seats.

Meanwhile if Rump somehow avoids going to jail I don't see his presidency lasting even a year.

[RiverDog]

Things got a little more interesting:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... spartanntp

It's pretty hard to see how this issue is going to be the magic pill that the Dems are looking for to overturn the results of the election. Trump brings up a good point: The Russians meddling occurred on Obama's watch, and if he was briefed about it and decided to not do anything, then it's going to be pretty hard to pin this on Trump.

[Hawktawk]

Things got a little more interesting:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... spartanntp

It's pretty hard to see how this issue is going to be the magic pill that the Dems are looking for to overturn the results of the election. Trump brings up a good point: The Russians meddling occurred on Obama's watch, and if he was briefed about it and decided to not do anything, then it's going to be pretty hard to pin this on Trump.

Obama contemplated any number of things and ultimately chose to simply tell Putin personally to stop. It was typical obama to be very cautious when dealing with crisis. Russia invaded Crimea and he did little. Syria gassed its people and he erased his own line in the sand. Russia bombed moderate us backed fighters in syria, nothing. I've said repeatedly Obama created a political environment where a Chump could win due to his limp wristed lead from behind philosophy .

That said a cautious president is safer for America than a bipolar blowhard popping off top secrets and revealing his mental illness to the world daily on twitter.

Make no mistake the investigation is serious and some people are going to jail over it. One orange stink bloated fat spray tanned lunatic might be unemployed . Robert Mueller doesn't give a crap about polls or trumps tweets, in fact they bolster the case against him. He's in deep trouble regardless of anything obama did or didn't do.at least obama accepted the conclusions and did something . Trump still hasn't done a damn thing.

[RiverDog]

Obama contemplated any number of things and ultimately chose to simply tell Putin personally to stop. It was typical obama to be very cautious when dealing with crisis. Russia invaded Crimea and he did little. Syria gassed its people and he erased his own line in the sand. Russia bombed moderate us backed fighters in syria, nothing. I've said repeatedly Obama created a political environment where a Chump could win due to his limp wristed lead from behind philosophy .

That said a cautious president is safer for America than a bipolar blowhard popping off top secrets and revealing his mental illness to the world daily on twitter.

Make no mistake the investigation is serious and some people are going to jail over it. One orange stink bloated fat spray tanned lunatic might be unemployed . Robert Mueller doesn't give a crap about polls or trumps tweets, in fact they bolster the case against him. He's in deep trouble regardless of anything obama did or didn't do.at least obama accepted the conclusions and did something . Trump still hasn't done a damn thing.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but it has little to do with the point I am trying to make, which is that so far, "The Russia thing" this is not the silver bullet the Dems have been looking for that's going to take down Trump. The revelation about Obama's prior knowledge of potential Russian involvement adds an entirely new twist to this episode, a twist that dumps the opposition party right in the middle of it.

Trump has a legitimate point, that it's going to be pretty hard to hold him accountable about something that Obama was fully aware of and had the power to do something about it but chose not to. Because of Obama's inaction, they've lost the high ground. If it wasn't important enough for a sitting President to act on, it sure as heck isn't important enough to overturn the election via impeachment.

[Hawktawk]

[

I agree with most of what you are saying, but it has little to do with the point I am trying to make, which is that so far, "The Russia thing" this is not the silver bullet the Dems have been looking for that's going to take down Trump. The revelation about Obama's prior knowledge of potential Russian involvement adds an entirely new twist to this episode, a twist that dumps the opposition party right in the middle of it.

Trump has a legitimate point, that it's going to be pretty hard to hold him accountable about something that Obama was fully aware of and had the power to do something about it but chose not to. Because of Obama's inaction, they've lost the high ground. If it wasn't important enough for a sitting President to act on, it sure as heck isn't important enough to overturn the election via impeachment.

In todays political climate with all the low information voters you may be right. People poll out as caring, over 60 % believe trump tried to influence the investigation and more believe Comey than Trump. But the impeachment number is in the low 40% range. Also repubs have won all 4 special elections, granted in deep red areas than were razor close relative to previous elections. But as long as Trump remains viable to his base the Repubs in congress will not impeach.

But nobody including you to some extent is paying complete attention following the bouncing ball of this chronology.
For one Obama didn't do "nothing". He personally contacted Putin to tell him to stop. And he also had the intelligence released in early October so voters could be aware they were being played.
The problem was that access Hollywood leaked an hour after this press release and dominated the news cycle for a week. An hour after access Hollywood the Podesta tapes were dumped by wikileaks.
This was collusion by Russia on Trumps behalf whether he was aware of it or not. It dominated the rest of the election cycle, especially coupled with Comeys bombshell presser revealing a reopening of Hillary's investigation.
As for Trump he has repeatedly blasted the report of 17 agencies, called them Nazis at one point. He steadfastly returned to his narrative of no collusion, witch hunt etc. Now all of a sudden Obama is questioned on his handling of a scandal Trump denied existed and suddenly Trump blames Obama for the scandal he denied in tweets 3 days ago!!!!and still has done nothing to stop or punish!!!!!! MOF his administration would have already weakened the sanctions were it not for the political pressure and congressional over sight.
His cabinet has too many undisclosed meetings to count with Russian bankers, officials , spies and yet 38% give or take of voters buy this Horese$#1+!!!!

The buck stops at trumps desk. The statute of limitations on Obama expired on Jan 20, actually Nov 8 of 2016.

It boggles my mind the useful idiots so many intelligent learned thoughtful people in other walks of life have become when it comes to politics. We should be on our way to DC with pitchforks and shouldn't stop till the entire congress and white house is cleared out but people shrug their shoulders. Sad. were going to fall with this apathy.

[RiverDog]

In todays political climate with all the low information voters you may be right. People poll out as caring, over 60 % believe trump tried to influence the investigation and more believe Comey than Trump. But the impeachment number is in the low 40% range. Also repubs have won all 4 special elections, granted in deep red areas than were razor close relative to previous elections. But as long as Trump remains viable to his base the Repubs in congress will not impeach.

But nobody including you to some extent is paying complete attention following the bouncing ball of this chronology.
For one Obama didn't do "nothing". He personally contacted Putin to tell him to stop. And he also had the intelligence released in early October so voters could be aware they were being played.
The problem was that access Hollywood leaked an hour after this press release and dominated the news cycle for a week. An hour after access Hollywood the Podesta tapes were dumped by wikileaks.
This was collusion by Russia on Trumps behalf whether he was aware of it or not. It dominated the rest of the election cycle, especially coupled with Comeys bombshell presser revealing a reopening of Hillary's investigation.
As for Trump he has repeatedly blasted the report of 17 agencies, called them Nazis at one point. He steadfastly returned to his narrative of no collusion, witch hunt etc. Now all of a sudden Obama is questioned on his handling of a scandal Trump denied existed and suddenly Trump blames Obama for the scandal he denied in tweets 3 days ago!!!!and still has done nothing to stop or punish!!!!!! MOF his administration would have already weakened the sanctions were it not for the political pressure and congressional over sight.
His cabinet has too many undisclosed meetings to count with Russian bankers, officials , spies and yet 38% give or take of voters buy this Horese$#1+!!!!

The buck stops at trumps desk. The statute of limitations on Obama expired on Jan 20, actually Nov 8 of 2016.

Once again, you're missing my point, which is that the fact that Obama was aware of Russian hacking and did not make an appropriate response (a personal appeal to Putin? Gimme a break!) adds a new element to this saga and that Trump makes a good point about Obama's awareness of the problem and his decision not to pursue it any more aggressively than he did.

It's not good enough to simply prove that Trump influenced or attempted to influence the investigation. It has to involve an effort to protect himself from investigation. When Richard Nixon fired Watergate special prosecutor Archibald Cox, he did so because Cox refused Nixon's command to cease his efforts to subpoena taped conversations in the Oval Office. Nixon knew there was information on them that would directly implicate him in the cover-up, so he was acting to save his own skin, not some subordinate and not to protect national security or something. That's when the move to impeach Nixon really got moving and when the phones of Congressmen in heavily Republican districts started ringing off the hook.

Bill Clinton's lying under oath was an illegal act designed to protect himself, but the reason why he did so, to save himself and family from personal embarrassment, was judged not to be a high enough of a crime to remove him from office. Unlike Nixon, Clinton's crime was not done to obtain or preserve power.

Unless they can come up with some course of action by Trump that resembles what Nixon did, I can't see impeachment getting off the ground except amongst Dems that have been seeking a way to overturn the result of the election since last November.

"It boggles my mind the useful idiots so many intelligent learned thoughtful people in other walks of life have become when it comes to politics. We should be on our way to DC with pitchforks and shouldn't stop till the entire congress and white house is cleared out but people shrug their shoulders. Sad. were going to fall with this apathy"

We'll get our first chance in a little less than 17 months. I, for one, plan on voting for my first Dem candidate for national office in my lifetime...unless Hillary moves to eastern Washington and runs for Congress in my district. I want to see the R's suffer for this abomination.

[burrrton]

I, for one, plan on voting for my first Dem candidate for national office in my lifetime.

Not that it matters, but you're voting against Newhouse and you don't even know who they're putting up against him yet??

You know I don't like Trump, either, but I'm not going to work to flip the house from the party that at least pays lip-service to slowing the growth of spending.

[RiverDog]

Not that it matters, but you're voting against Newhouse and you don't even know who they're putting up against him yet??

You know I don't like Trump, either, but I'm not going to work to flip the house from the party that at least pays lip-service to slowing the growth of spending.

If the Dems put up a reasonable candidate, then yes, I'll vote for them. Flipping the House would give Trump a vasectomy and send a signal to the R's. I dislike Trump so much that I'd vote to throw out a good Congressman just to register my protest. At least that's the way I feel today. The election isn't for another 17 months.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="burrrton" I, for one, plan on voting for my first Dem candidate for national office in my lifetime.

Not that it matters, but you're voting against Newhouse and you don't even know who they're putting up against him yet??

You know I don't like Trump, either, but I'm not going to work to flip the house from the party that at least pays lip-service to slowing the growth of spending.[/quote]

Demicans and republicrats. Trillion dollar infrastructure plan. Paid family leave. full funding of planned parenthood. No intention of reforming social security and other entitlement plans.
A health bill with "heart".
I don't see a whole lot of difference honestly.
Yeah there is still some but I'm with RD. Much as my vote for Johnson was a hell no to two POS my vote for a straight ticket Democratic slate will be to send a message to the republicans about the disgusting lack of oversight of Donald J Trump.
F him.

Its really not about the republican agenda. Its about bowing down the biggest demagogue, liar and most unfit dangerous man ever to sit in the oval office.

[monkey]

So many contradictory statements in these threads.
I read "F" Trump, he hasn't done a damn thing", and I read, "he's out of control, he needs to be stopped!", but mostly I just read hatred that isn't based on anything concrete at all.
I read all the hatred, but for the life of me, I cannot find one actual reason why, except possibly a few statements Burrton made about policies he disagree with.
Oh yes, you guys have made all kinds of irrational statements, but you've said nothing provable.

It's all irrational.

I can tell you exactly the things he's done that I like or dislike. For example; I like the travel ban, the large majority of his cabinet appointments, his supreme Court nominee, and thus far, literally all of his executive orders, including his latest, making it easier to fire incompetent VA employees.

What I don't like is the pressure he's putting on conservative lawmakers, to replace Obama Care.
It ought to be repealed entirely, not one solitary word left.
Forget replacing, government has no business in the health insurance market!
When Trump tweets that they are being too mean, in spite of the fact that essentially all they've done is gotten rid of the tax, while leaving all the goodies, it drives me crazy.
There are other things, but my point is, you haters don't even know why you hate him, except you're told to by the lame stream media who hates him irrationally.

My point is, there's no point in discussing any of this stuff with you people if you can't give specifics and if you can't even tell to be rational.
So, my suggestion is, lose the hatred and hyperbole and try using this forum for its intended functions, debate.

The troll Largent needn't bother though, I won't be responding to his trolling, he's on ignore.
I am going to report his ass and try to get him banned for threatening violence against posters here and against the president.
I will not tolerate that kind of nonsense. Call me whatever you like, I don't mind, but threaten violence against the president, and my fellow posters here, that I take seriously.
He needs to be banned. Permanently.

[Hawktawk]

Monkey
It is not debatable that he is a remorseless liar and mentally unstable twitter and cable TV addict just to name a few. As Ive said there are things to like about some of the policy proposals, I am a lifelong conservative after all.

Although Trump appears to be an empty suit who shifts with the wind depending on whether he was listening to Steve Bannon or his democrat daughter and pimple faced democrat son in law.....

Its the man. Its the steaming pile of excrement who said McCain wasn't a war hero because he got captured. The man who was 4 F from Vietnam on some obscure foot injury and then was taped on Howard stern calling the sex romps he had in the 70s avoiding STDs his "personal Vietnam" .

Are you kidding monkey? If you cant understand why reasonable people ( a strong majority of Americans) loathe this POS you are the unreasonable illogical one. Hes brought it all on himself with his big fat mouth and his groping hands and misspelled tweets.
F him now and forever. Theres things more important than public policy.I cheer the day he is gone, one way or another. Hes an embarrassment.

[Largent80]

Ostrich. His head firmly buried in the sand or in Trumps ass. That's all he sees. Corn and sand.

Meanwhile his hero, took food right off my mom and dad's table, and is about to reduce medicaid, just as millions of baby boomers get to retirement age.

Biggest assclown of all time. And Ostrich is his Guiding Light. And he needs to be banned permanently for supporting a man that aryan nation people said on the news last night that Trump singlehandedly was the reason they are to continue their hatred towards races other than white.

Shame on you Ostrich, you pathetic Fu**.

[monkey]

Monkey
It is not debatable that he is a remorseless liar and mentally unstable twitter and cable TV addict just to name a few. As Ive said there are things to like about some of the policy proposals, I am a lifelong conservative after all.

Although Trump appears to be an empty suit who shifts with the wind depending on whether he was listening to Steve Bannon or his democrat daughter and pimple faced democrat son in law.....

Its the man. Its the steaming pile of excrement who said McCain wasn't a war hero because he got captured. The man who was 4 F from Vietnam on some obscure foot injury and then was taped on Howard stern calling the sex romps he had in the 70s avoiding STDs his "personal Vietnam" .

Are you kidding monkey? If you cant understand why reasonable people ( a strong majority of Americans) loathe this POS you are the unreasonable illogical one. Hes brought it all on himself with his big fat mouth and his groping hands and misspelled tweets.
F him now and forever. Theres things more important than public policy.I cheer the day he is gone, one way or another. Hes an embarrassment.

Dude... This is just meaningless, unprovable crap. Sorry but that's exactly what it is. What do you even mean it's not arguable that he's a liar? That's all you got, he's a liar?
You mean lies like if you like your health Care plan you can keep it? Our lies like, Benghazi was caused by a video? What difference does it make now right?

I remember when Democrats were ripping those who were claiming that Obama was a Muslim who was not born in Hawaii etc..., I remember how preachy they all got, telling everyone within hearing that, people needed to rise above pretty squabbling and name calling and so on. As usual the hypocrisy of the left knows no bounds though, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, lefties are literally losing their tiny minds, calling for impeachment, without a shred of evidence of any wrong doing, demanding safe spaces, acting violently against people wearing a Trump shirt or make America great again hat, and so on.

I am unreasonable for not understanding how you can loathe someone you have never met who is apparently guilty of the heinous crime of tweeting things you don't like, and saying negative things about John McCain and for something he said on Howard Stern which was apparently unforgivable and what else?? Oh yeah he had a big fat mouth... wtf??

Do you even have the ability for self reflection?
Former president Clinton RAPED multiple women, and when they came forward, his attack dog Hillary went after them and ruined their lives, and you give me something Trump said on Howard freaking Stern?!?
That's got to be the single most unequivalent thing I've ever heard...
Oh noes! Someone said something bad on the Howard Stern show! OMG!

Where is your outage at what Hillary did to victims of her pervert husband's rape? Where is your outrage over the millions those losers have gotten selling access through their B.S charity? Are you kidding me??? There is no moral equivalent here, it's not even remotely close.
Trump said things you didn't approve of, the Clinton's have actually done things that would land you or I in prison for life.
You're right, I don't get it...

[RiverDog]

Where is your outage at what Hillary did to victims of her pervert husband's rape? Where is your outrage over the millions those losers have gotten selling access through their B.S charity? Are you kidding me??? There is no moral equivalent here, it's not even remotely close.
Trump said things you didn't approve of, the Clinton's have actually done things that would land you or I in prison for life.
You're right, I don't get it...

Boy, doesn't this argument dust off some bitter memories from the '90's.

I was so upset about women's groups for raising all sorts of hell about Bob Packwood, a conservative Republican, for "sexual misconduct", essentially pats on the fanny by the water cooler, yet they gave Bill Clinton's well documented womanizing where he was accused of rape, a pass. It was clear that they were much more interested in politics than they were in sexual predators.

[Hawktawk]

I don't give a flying F about the misdeeds of Obama and the Klintons at this point.

Bill Klinton was was last the president 18 years ago. Oh and he was a pretty good one too who could actually govern. Ther economy grew at a robust pace and the budget was balanced as he reached across the aisle to the contract with america republican wave to make it happen. welfare reform was accomplished, something Obama undid.Bill was an articulate speaker who could captivate a room.

Hillary was never the POTUS.

Obama was a weak kneed lying demagogue. a lazy president. Like I say I'm a conservative. Jesus don't you get that????

But you sound dense frankly using the shortcomings of these folks who are not in power to defend the actions of a man eminently unfit for the office, a lunatic, complete POS. If you think that unprovable you're just glued to Faux who doesn't even report half or more of his stupid s***,
Argument over monkey, you are delusional with your dismissive attitude and protection and appeasement of this travesty.

[monkey]

You keep making the claim that Trump is unqualified, but you don't seem to realize that you have to PROVE that claim!
You do get that if you make an accusation of incompetence, you actually have to prove the case right? Right?!?
You haven't come anywhere near that. You just keep spouting insults, as if insults somehow prove themselves if you shout them enough times.

You keep telling me how clueless I am for not accepting your claims, but you proven any of them!!!
I really would be clueless if I accepted the crap you're selling without evidence!
You call it a travesty but haven't shown how it is one.

Prove you're claims or stop making them because frankly, I wasn't even a supporter of his, but I've become convinced that he's exactly what this country needs right now, and is doing a great job.

[Hawktawk]

Sorry monkey you have your head so far up your arse you need a windshield wiper on your bellybutton to see where you are going dude. If you cant see the proof right in front of you I cant help you. 57% disaproval, an all time record for a president in his 5th month shows more people than not get it including some republicans with integrity and common sense like myself.

I'm done debating Chump with you. You better stick to football because its better to be thought a fool then start typing and remove all doubt...

[monkey]

Sorry monkey you have your head so far up your arse you need a windshield wiper on your bellybutton to see where you are going dude. If you cant see the proof right in front of you I cant help you. 57% disaproval, an all time record for a president in his 5th month shows more people than not get it including some republicans with integrity and common sense like myself.

I'm done debating Chump with you. You better stick to football because its better to be thought a fool then start typing and remove all doubt...

You aren't done debating Trump because You've never started. You haven't debated anything! All you have done is throw out hyperbolic insults that are unprovable and cannot actually be debated.
"F Trump" is not a debate, it's a childish temper tantrum.

This is pathetic!

All I am asking for is anything specific l something concrete that we can debate the merits of, and all I get is rhetoric.

[Largent80]

LOL. The "Russia Thing" has become a smidge bigger since the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and the ridiculous attempt of "transparency" by jr. shows evidence of treason by meeting with Russians who claimed to have "dirt" on Clinton.

Ostrich, dude, you are the biggest laughingstock right now because you support this egomaniac. You clamored for a "different" type of politician, but your ignorance chose this dude. A person so into himself, and so ignorant of the rest of the world that all of the rest of us (the majority) are going to be here to rub it in your stupid face every day, So Rub, Rub, Rub. Take it like the b**** you are.

Also, I know you have me on ignore, but I also know you read my posts and won't reply because you can't help yourself, you are simply trying to save face just like your daddy Rump. Nobody here cares about YOU Ostrich so get over yourself and post your ridiculous retort.

You are a pathetic human, Ostrich, and are what is wrong with America. How is that for rhetoric?

Rhetoric?....How is that word a part of anything Rump so far. Flynn, his appointee, was disgraced and fired. Rump fired the head of the FBI who was investigating this guy (Pretty obvious way of trying to cover up wrongdoings). Sessions is even a bigger liar than Rump Jr. Dude you elected a CRIMINAL who isn't making "America Great Again". He is reducing us to your level....Laughingstock.

Sad time in America.

[Largent80]

Ostrich....Here's some great news for ya.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/repu ... 51687.html

[RiverDog]

LOL. The "Russia Thing" has become a smidge bigger since the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and the ridiculous attempt of "transparency" by jr. shows evidence of treason by meeting with Russians who claimed to have "dirt" on Clinton.

Junior might be guilty of a lot of things, but they don't include treason. It's a charge that has been extremely rarely used during the history of our country and requires giving aid and comfort to an enemy (good luck with declaring Russia an "enemy") or attempted violent overthrow of our government, neither of which are present.

But Painter acknowledges that the crime of treason is rarely charged in the United States for a variety of reasons, including the fact that the Constitution requires either a declaration of war or some attempt to overthrow the government by violence.


Here's a good discussion of treason and what other crimes Junior might be charged with:

http://www.npr.org/2017/07/12/536729440 ... -answer-no

[Largent80]

LOL, having a meeting with a Russian that has "dirt" on the opposing presidential candidate is collusion which is TREASON. "I love it" was his response.

This guy is as dirty as the entire Rump administration, and hopefully they all go down the bad rabbit hole.

[burrrton]

Here's a good discussion of treason and what other crimes Junior might be charged with:

http://www.npr.org/2017/07/12/536729440 ... -answer-no

C'mon- we all know NPR is a noted conservative house organ.

[RiverDog]

C'mon- we all know NPR is a noted conservative house organ.

Hehe. Yea, I thought about that when I saw the story, that there's no way any lib could kill the messenger if it came from NPR.

[Hawktawk]

Updates since I last visited this thread
Manafort and gates indicted and under house arrest
Flynn and his son under pressure to flip and probably have.
George Papadopoulos pleads out after likely being wired for months
Don jr and Kushner found to have had direct links to Wikileaks and apparent coordinated releases of Clinton e mails . Even DY himself seems to have been responding to Wikileaks requests to pump their organization as he mentioned it 156 times on the campaign trail .
Kushner , Trump Jr . Sessions can’t remember contacts, meetings , how to fill our disclosure forms under penalty of perjury.

This is the most important investigation in American history of the most sinister scandal in American history .
GO BOB MUELLER!!!!

[c_hawkbob]

Updates since I last visited this thread
Manafort and gates indicted and under house arrest
Flynn and his son under pressure to flip and probably have.
George Papadopoulos pleads out after likely being wired for months
Don jr and Kushner found to have had direct links to Wikileaks and apparent coordinated releases of Clinton e mails . Even DY himself seems to have been responding to Wikileaks requests to pump their organization as he mentioned it 156 times on the campaign trail .
Kushner , Trump Jr . Sessions can’t remember contacts, meetings , how to fill our disclosure forms under penalty of perjury.

This is the most important investigation in American history of the most sinister scandal in American history .
GO BOB MUELLER!!!!

On Wednesday Flynn's lawyers informed Trump's legal team that they would no longer be sharing information with them (a practice that in itself was probably illegal). This is a pretty clear indication that he's made some sort of deal with Mueller.

[RiverDog]

This is the most important investigation in American history of the most sinister scandal in American history .
GO BOB MUELLER!!!!

It's an important investigation, but most important in American history? It's way, way too early to make such a proclamation, and even if it does bear fruit, it would have an extremely high bar to clear in order to top other investigations, like the two JFK assassination investigations, 9/11, Watergate, and so on as being the most important in American history.

You're really going overboard on this Trump thing, Hawktawk. I hope you have enough introspection to see what is abundantly clear to the rest of us.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's an important investigation, but most important in American history? It's way, way too early to make such a proclamation, and even if it does bear fruit, it would have an extremely high bar to clear in order to top other investigations, like the two JFK assassination investigations, 9/11, Watergate, and so on as being the most important in American history.

You're really going overboard on this Trump thing, Hawktawk. I hope you have enough introspection to see what is abundantly clear to the rest of us.

It sort of depends. As much as I don't like to agree with Hawktawk and his crazy Trump talk, this is one of the most important investigations in history right up there with Watergate or above. Watergate was at least other Americans engaging in illegal activities aimed at winning an election. This would be a foreign power installing a president, much live we've done many times to smaller nations. Fortunately, we have enough checks and balances in places to prevent a president from doing much even when a foreign power influences an election making it not such a cost effective activity.

If Mueller finds a foreign power had an material influence on an election installing a president friendly to them, that is a very big deal. A bigger deal than almost anything you mentioned given the JFK assassination is pretty much cleared of foreign involvement. It's bigger than Watergate if proven and as big as 9/11 given that was a foreign attack.

So far most of this seems to be stemming from older issues such as with Manafort and Gates. Not sure what will come of Flynn. Not sure Donald Jr. and Kushner did anything illegal other than accept information offered by wikileaks and talk to some foreign officials with information to use against an opponent, an extremely common form of obtaining information used by the Clinton Campaign as well when they hired a foreign investigator to dig up information on Trump that they released during the election. Seems a bunch of folks have forgotten that Hilary was using foreign sources to dig up information on Trump and was having it steadily released as well such as the stupid piss dossier. I guess she gets a pass because she lost.

We'll see what comes of it. Treason is a high bar to reach. Unless they find evidence of a clear deal between Russia and Trump, they won't reach that bar. Collecting information from foreign entities is common for both parties and won't lead to much other than some wrist slapping and minor charges. But real Treason would be a very big deal.

[RiverDog]

It sort of depends. As much as I don't like to agree with Hawktawk and his crazy Trump talk, this is one of the most important investigations in history right up there with Watergate or above. Watergate was at least other Americans engaging in illegal activities aimed at winning an election. This would be a foreign power installing a president, much live we've done many times to smaller nations. Fortunately, we have enough checks and balances in places to prevent a president from doing much even when a foreign power influences an election making it not such a cost effective activity.

If Mueller finds a foreign power had an material influence on an election installing a president friendly to them, that is a very big deal. A bigger deal than almost anything you mentioned given the JFK assassination is pretty much cleared of foreign involvement. It's bigger than Watergate if proven and as big as 9/11 given that was a foreign attack.

So far most of this seems to be stemming from older issues such as with Manafort and Gates. Not sure what will come of Flynn. Not sure Donald Jr. and Kushner did anything illegal other than accept information offered by wikileaks and talk to some foreign officials with information to use against an opponent, an extremely common form of obtaining information used by the Clinton Campaign as well when they hired a foreign investigator to dig up information on Trump that they released during the election. Seems a bunch of folks have forgotten that Hilary was using foreign sources to dig up information on Trump and was having it steadily released as well such as the stupid piss dossier. I guess she gets a pass because she lost.

We'll see what comes of it. Treason is a high bar to reach. Unless they find evidence of a clear deal between Russia and Trump, they won't reach that bar. Collecting information from foreign entities is common for both parties and won't lead to much other than some wrist slapping and minor charges. But real Treason would be a very big deal.

I'm not trying to down play it, but when someone says it's the most important 'anything' in history, it raises it to an almost impossible to achieve standard, especially considering that the investigation is still in progress. If they don't get to Trump, Robert Mueller is going to become the answer to a trivia question right next to Kenneth Starr.

Even if the Mueller investigation finds some serious stuff, they're not going to hang a treason charge on anyone. Treason is the only crime that is defined in the Constitution, and it requires that we be at war.