Government Shut Down

[Seahawks4Ever]

Idiot democrats get played like a fiddle and shut down the government. This is exactly what D.J.T. wanted, and he will let them take the heat, rightfully so. This was about the dumbest move Shumer has ever pulled and he will regret it, he WILL regret it.

[burrrton]

Government shutdowns aren't apocalyptic, but they're not good, either. I criticized the s*** out of Cruz for his quixotic shutdown, and I'm critical of Schumer for this same dopey effort.

He really has no leg to stand on, insisting on an unrelated issue being attached to this CR (an issue I support, btw). He better hope the media run cover for him, or voters have short memories (both of which are likely, come to think of it).

[Aseahawkfan]

Get back to me when it's real and lasts longer than a few days. This is nothing but grandstanding by both parties as they engage in idiot antics to control the government.

[jshawaii22]

Idiot democrats get played like a fiddle and shut down the government. This is exactly what D.J.T. wanted, and he will let them take the heat, rightfully so. This was about the dumbest move Shumer has ever pulled and he will regret it, he WILL regret it.

Watching FOX again are you? At least spit out your version of the 'truth' -- come on... It's Trumps one-year anniversary today. Sing him some praise.

"Clowns to the left of me and Jokers to the right, and here I am, stuck in the middle with you" -- I thank Jesus he put me in Hawaii and about as far away from DC as you can get.

[Aseahawkfan]

Watching FOX again are you? At least spit out your version of the 'truth' -- come on... It's Trumps one-year anniversary today. Sing him some praise.

"Clowns to the left of me and Jokers to the right, and here I am, stuck in the middle with you" -- I thank Jesus he put me in Hawaii and about as far away from DC as you can get.

Seahawks4ever a Fox News watcher? He got banned a while ago for hating Trump Supporters too much.

Maybe he is starting to see the whole business between these scumbag politicians is all garbage. Schumer getting calls from the big tech companies worried about losing their cheap labor supply with their H1B visas if DACA gets trashed.

[RiverDog]

Get back to me when it's real and lasts longer than a few days. This is nothing but grandstanding by both parties as they engage in idiot antics to control the government.

This is a silly exercise. Both sides are doing nothing but playing to their base. Neither of them are not going to cause one single person from the middle of the political spectrum to lean their direction by shutting down the government. They are both equally to blame.

It seems like we go through this about once every 3-4 years now, and I don't recall anything like this happening prior to the turn of the century. It's a reflection of just how toxic American politics has become.

[Hawktawk]

Again you all get sucked into the alternative universe of trump. Coming out of the fire and fury book he calls a televised meeting with senators and says he weill sign whatever they can come up with and do it”with love”.
5 days later he expresses agreement with the deal agreed upon by both parties . 2 hours later after Kelly the racist chief of staff along with hawrd liners in the senate flip this empty suit 180 he makes openly racist comments while blowing up the deal 80% of voters including a majority of republicans favor. 2 days later he called Durbin and graham liars and 3 republican Senators and the Homeland security chief told bald faced lies , she was under oath.

And now the dreamers he loved 2 weeks ago are illegal aliens, criminals and rapists . He’s up at 3 am on twitter attacking people he has to convince.what a brilliant deal maker


The lack of political IQ of the American voter is mind boggling .its how we got Killary vs Trump in the first place.

[RiverDog]

.

[RiverDog]

Again you all get sucked into the alternative universe of trump. Coming out of the fire and fury book he calls a televised meeting with senators and says he weill sign whatever they can come up with and do it”with love”.
5 days later he expresses agreement with the deal agreed upon by both parties . 2 hours later after Kelly the racist chief of staff along with hawrd liners in the senate flip this empty suit 180 he makes openly racist comments while blowing up the deal 80% of voters including a majority of republicans favor. 2 days later he called Durbin and graham liars and 3 republican Senators and the Homeland security chief told bald faced lies , she was under oath.

And now the dreamers he loved 2 weeks ago are illegal aliens, criminals and rapists . He’s up at 3 am on twitter attacking people he has to convince.what a brilliant deal maker


The lack of political IQ of the American voter is mind boggling .its how we got Killary vs Trump in the first place.

I can't say that I disagree with that, Hawktalk. Much of what you say is true. But it's much more than what you have stated.

The Dems are the ones that linked the DACA controversy into the plan to fund the government, and to tell you the truth, they are looking worse than either Trump or the R's by telling its citizens that they are willing to shut down the government in the name of foreigners that are here illegally. It's getting a lot of play on social media.

Trump was willing to compromise on DACA if they would give him his wall. I don't like the idea of a wall, either, but the problem is that the Dems can't have their cake and eat it, too. They are the party out of power and if they are going to have any kind of effect on policy at all, they are going to have to compromise. It seems that the S-hole countries remark has stiffened their resolve. They are letting their personal feelings get in the way of their common sense.

Right now, it's a game of chicken, to see which one is going to flinch first, and given what kind of an insensitive A-hole Trump is, I'll put my money on him.

[Largent80]

Government is shut down and we're all better for it.

[burrrton]

Sounds like it's reopening today.

[Largent80]

Sounds like it's reopening today.

Sad, I was enjoying the closure, but actually didn't know the difference since we are all still alive and there is a lack of Bullshit smell.

[idhawkman]

Watching FOX again are you? At least spit out your version of the 'truth' -- come on... It's Trumps one-year anniversary today. Sing him some praise.

"Clowns to the left of me and Jokers to the right, and here I am, stuck in the middle with you" -- I thank Jesus he put me in Hawaii and about as far away from DC as you can get.

Yes, but you are so much closer to that idiot in N. Korea. Is there no where else to go?????

[idhawkman]

Seahawks4ever a Fox News watcher? He got banned a while ago for hating Trump Supporters too much.

Maybe he is starting to see the whole business between these scumbag politicians is all garbage. Schumer getting calls from the big tech companies worried about losing their cheap labor supply with their H1B visas if DACA gets trashed.

This has been a huge debacle that most people don't know about. Clinton approved of NAFTA because we were going to replace the lower paying manufacturing jobs with higher paying technology jobs. but then he opened up so many H1B Visas to China, India, Israel, etc. that they came in and learned all our technology and took it back to their countries and outsource the work now for pennies on the dollar. What a debacle this has been.

Now, they teach the technology in their coutnries and export their workers here because our big corporations say they can't find enough qualified workers here. Talk about a double whammy!!!

[RiverDog]

This has been a huge debacle that most people don't know about. Clinton approved of NAFTA because we were going to replace the lower paying manufacturing jobs with higher paying technology jobs. but then he opened up so many H1B Visas to China, India, Israel, etc. that they came in and learned all our technology and took it back to their countries and outsource the work now for pennies on the dollar. What a debacle this has been.

Now, they teach the technology in their coutnries and export their workers here because our big corporations say they can't find enough qualified workers here. Talk about a double whammy!!!

With an unemployment rate of 4.1%, you're not going to make a very convincing argument against immigration based on jobs.

[Largent80]

Yup, plenty of lawnmowing and dishwashing jobs available. Go get one everyone. And if you like fruit or vegetables, after all the migrants are gone, there will be plenty of "come pick em" places available. You just gotta travel to the Salinas valley to get your own lettuce.

[RiverDog]

Yup, plenty of lawnmowing and dishwashing jobs available. Go get one everyone. And if you like fruit or vegetables, after all the migrants are gone, there will be plenty of "come pick em" places available. You just gotta travel to the Salinas valley to get your own lettuce.

More and more of our fresh fruit and vegetables are coming from Mexico, Central and South America. I bought some asparagus from Peru the other day. And for it being out of season and grown 3,000 miles away, it's good quality and reasonably priced.

IMO with water becoming such an issue in major US agricultural areas such as California, we are going to have to depend more and more on foreign trade to meet an ever increasing demand of healthy fruits and veggies in this country. This would seem to me to be a viable solution to the immigration issue in this country.

[burrrton]

IMO with water becoming such an issue in major US agricultural areas such as California, we are going to have to depend more and more on foreign trade to meet an ever increasing demand of healthy fruits and veggies in this country. This would seem to me to be a viable solution to the immigration issue in this country.

And one that Trump seems eager to sh*t all over.

[c_hawkbob]

The dems were idiots for having done this at this time, all they accomplished was to show the president their hand; that he’s got his wall (that Mexico was never going to pay for) and all it’s going to cost is DACA, which was always going to happen anyway.

[RiverDog]

The dems were idiots for having done this at this time, all they accomplished was to show the president their hand; that he’s got his wall (that Mexico was never going to pay for) and all it’s going to cost is DACA, which was always going to happen anyway.

Not only that, the Dems lost the PR battle, too, and gave the R's some good sound bites for the upcoming mid terms, such as "care more about people in this country illegally than they do about our military." They really need to think of finding a leader other than Chuck Schumer. He's the one that led them over the cliff on this one.

The Dems might as well give in on the wall because it's not going to happen anyway, at least not along the entire length of the border. They are already having trouble finding potential bidders due to the politics involved. The very first thing a Democratic congress will do will be to repeal funding for it. Even conservatives that might otherwise be in favor of it will balk at the cost.

And you're right, although it's likely to be modified, DACA is here to stay. I saw a poll showing that 87% of Americans, including 79% of Republicans, are in favor of amnesty for DACA recipients. You can't get 87% of Americans to agree on the location of the Pacific Ocean.

[idhawkman]

The dems were idiots for having done this at this time, all they accomplished was to show the president their hand; that he’s got his wall (that Mexico was never going to pay for) and all it’s going to cost is DACA, which was always going to happen anyway.

Sounds like Schumer may need to learn how to really negotiate with someone who knows how to negotiate instead the the limp lumps of lard that have been his previous opposition.

[idhawkman]

Not only that, the Dems lost the PR battle, too, and gave the R's some good sound bites for the upcoming mid terms, such as "care more about people in this country illegally than they do about our military." They really need to think of finding a leader other than Chuck Schumer. He's the one that led them over the cliff on this one.

The Dems might as well give in on the wall because it's not going to happen anyway, at least not along the entire length of the border. They are already having trouble finding potential bidders due to the politics involved. The very first thing a Democratic congress will do will be to repeal funding for it. Even conservatives that might otherwise be in favor of it will balk at the cost.

And you're right, although it's likely to be modified, DACA is here to stay. I saw a poll showing that 87% of Americans, including 79% of Republicans, are in favor of amnesty for DACA recipients. You can't get 87% of Americans to agree on the location of the Pacific Ocean.

Schumer may bear the brunt of the focus on this but he really had no choice but to bow to the hard left of his party and the donors. Now that they've been bloodied though, he will have more clout when he tells them that this hill is not the one to die on.

I also saw a poll that shows 60+% want to reduce current levels of legal immigration and over 70% want the border wall fully funded. The dems were just on the wrong side of this fight from the beginning.

[RiverDog]

I also saw a poll that shows 60+% want to reduce current levels of legal immigration and over 70% want the border wall fully funded. The dems were just on the wrong side of this fight from the beginning.

You have?

Here's one done by Rasmussen from July of 2017:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... order_wall

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 37% of Likely U.S. Voters believe the United States should build a wall along the Mexican border to help stop illegal immigration. Fifty-six percent (56%) disagree.

The House last week approved $1.6 billion in spending for President Trump’s proposed wall along the Mexican border, but with illegal immigration at the Mexican border at a 17-year low, most voters don’t want it anymore.

The border wall will never get built. Even if Trump is successful in turning the first shovel of dirt, it would be a decades long government-run project similar to the Alaska Pipeline and the ISS that would be subject to future funding requests and the ever changing political winds. There will be fiscal conservatives that will balk at the cost. Already there are potential contractors that are being scared away from bidding on it by the politics of being associated with the project, pressure that would only mount when and if construction actually begins.

Anyone that thinks that Mexico is going to participate in the funding of it needs to their heads examined. And if illegal traffic across the border is already at a 17 year low, is there really a need for it, or are there other cheaper, less obtrusive alternatives to achieve the same goal?

[idhawkman]

You have?

Here's one done by Rasmussen from July of 2017:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... order_wall

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 37% of Likely U.S. Voters believe the United States should build a wall along the Mexican border to help stop illegal immigration. Fifty-six percent (56%) disagree.

The House last week approved $1.6 billion in spending for President Trump’s proposed wall along the Mexican border, but with illegal immigration at the Mexican border at a 17-year low, most voters don’t want it anymore.

The border wall will never get built. Even if Trump is successful in turning the first shovel of dirt, it would be a decades long government-run project similar to the Alaska Pipeline and the ISS that would be subject to future funding requests and the ever changing political winds. There will be fiscal conservatives that will balk at the cost. Already there are potential contractors that are being scared away from bidding on it by the politics of being associated with the project, pressure that would only mount when and if construction actually begins.

Anyone that thinks that Mexico is going to participate in the funding of it needs to their heads examined. And if illegal traffic across the border is already at a 17 year low, is there really a need for it, or are there other cheaper, less obtrusive alternatives to achieve the same goal?

Well I guess that poll is in contradiction to the latest Harvard Harris poll that has those numbers reversed. Just google immigration poll and you'll see all kinds of headlines saying "bad news for democrats" on them.

A new left-leaning poll proves the point President Donald Trump made at his State of the Union address: “Americans are dreamers, too.”

According to a Harvard University-Harris Poll, a majority of Americans actually agree with not only one but all of Trump’s immigration proposals.

A stunning 65 percent of Americans support a DACA deal that ends chain migration, eliminates the random visa lottery and secures the border with a wall. Only 35 percent of Americans did not agree.


Nearly 70 percent of Americans oppose the visa lottery which allows immigrants to be picked at random for entry into the country.


In fact, nearly 80 percent of Americans believe that immigration should be based on merit and skills, not just family ties.

Even more interesting, the poll shows that 60 percent of Americans believe that even if dreamers are allowed to stay, they should not be given preference to bring relatives to the United States.

When faced with a choice, nearly 80 percent want secure borders rather than open borders.

Specifically, 61 percent think that current border security is inadequate, and more than half of Americans — 54 percent — support a physical barrier along the southern U.S. border. This is particularly bad news for democrats such as Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) who recently reneged on funding the border wall.

The shocking poll underscores the progress Trump has made in his push for immigration reform. When he launched his bid for president, a Pew Research Center pollshowed that only 46 percent of Americans supported a border wall. In 2016, The Washington Post even poked fun at Trump for actually making the border wall less popular at just 36 percent but no that is no longer the case, either. The rise in poll numbers shows Trump’s persistence on the issue finally pays dividends.

The recent Harvard-Harris poll showing Americans’ shifting view is devastating for democrats during a time when they are pushing full amnesty for dreamers, while not giving any ground on funding a wall, improving border security, or reforming other immigration policies. Even Mark Penn, longtime democratic pollster and senior adviser to Bill and Hillary Clinton, recently admitted that the time has come for democrats to face the music and make a deal.

Finally, what is most surprising about the poll is the fact that it was taken before last week’s State of the Union address during which Americans had the opportunity to meet — via their televisions — families of victims killed at the hands of illegal immigrants.

Those heart-wrenching stories included two teenage girls killed at the hands of illegal immigrant MS-13 gang members on Long Island. It would be interesting to see if support for border security is even higher now in the light of the “Trump bump”that the president received from his heartfelt address.

The bottom line is Americans agree with Trump’s immigration policies, and it does not bode well for democrats who appear to either be tone deaf on the matter, blinded by their open-borders worldview that continues to protect illegals ahead of American citizens, or they intentionally want to keep the issue boiling in advance of the 2018 midterm elections.

The new polls illustrate that Americans feel as Trump feels — that Americans are “Dreamers” in our own right, and that we dream of a nation in which our children can be safe from predatory gang violence, illegal activity and that our children should be afforded the right to live long enough to fulfill their dreams, too.

Democrats’ failure to understand this basic premise just as their 15-point lead collapsed this week to just two points, may prove to be fatal for them in the 2018 midterm elections.

Jen Kerns served as the spokeswoman for the California Republican Party. A two-time appointee of Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, she went on to serve as spokeswoman and communications director for the victorious Prop. 8 campaign in California, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, Americans for Prosperity in California, and numerous rare successful Statewide races as a Republican press secretary. She departed California at the end of 2012 over public safety concerns.

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/372152-new-polling-proves-president-trump-is-right-americans-are-dreamers-too

[RiverDog]

Unless and until the border wall has a consistent, overwhelming majority in favor of it, it's not getting built, at least not in its entirety. Even if there was clear, overwhelming support for it, big ticket government construction projects take decades to get completed, so no way will that such a highly politicized, multi billion dollar project survive the 8 or 10 Congresses and 2 or 3 more Administrations that it's going to take to see the project through. They'll have legal challenges, environmental challenges, and fiscal challenges to contend with, let alone the ever changing political winds it would have to endure.

That's why if I'm the Dems, I'd use it as a bargaining chip: Let Trump have his wall if he compromises on DACA. No sense fighting over something that's not going to happen anyway.

[RiverDog]

Well I guess that poll is in contradiction to the latest Harvard Harris poll that has those numbers reversed. Just google immigration poll and you'll see all kinds of headlines saying "bad news for democrats" on them.

It seems there's some disagreement with that poll you linked:

The Hill posted the infographic showing that U.S. voters overwhelming are against sanctuary cities. What the Donald Trump proponents neglected to share is that 43% of those polled, support creating a pathway for undocumented immigrants in the US to legally become citizens. Twenty percent support allowing those in the country to obtain work permits.
Here are the other inconvenient details that the supporters neglected to share:

53% of those polled oppose building the wall on the U.S.-México border.

https://socialunwind.com/the-harvard-ha ... c95708307e

So who's right?

[Aseahawkfan]

Hard to say. I guess we'll see in future elections. I would say the divide over immigration is a lot closer than polls say it is with lots of flip-flopping. I consider my viewpoint. I could not participate in deporting children brought here early because I wouldn't feel good about it. At the same time I'm wondering how they made it in and stayed 20 years to begin with. I don't consider it a good thing that it is so easy to sneak into this nation and stay. I talked with one liberal man that didn't think we needed borders, a completely unrealistic viewpoint given the current state of the world. I do feel the government has a responsibility to secure our borders against illegal immigration, but how to go about it when state governments like ours in Washington don't believe in border security and are working against the Federal Government to allow undocumented, illegal immigrants to stay in the nation. It's a real divide on where to draw the line.

[RiverDog]

Hard to say. I guess we'll see in future elections. I would say the divide over immigration is a lot closer than polls say it is with lots of flip-flopping. I consider my viewpoint. I could not participate in deporting children brought here early because I wouldn't feel good about it. At the same time I'm wondering how they made it in and stayed 20 years to begin with. I don't consider it a good thing that it is so easy to sneak into this nation and stay. I talked with one liberal man that didn't think we needed borders, a completely unrealistic viewpoint given the current state of the world. I do feel the government has a responsibility to secure our borders against illegal immigration, but how to go about it when state governments like ours in Washington don't believe in border security and are working against the Federal Government to allow undocumented, illegal immigrants to stay in the nation. It's a real divide on where to draw the line.

I have seen polls where a majority of Americans are against a lottery system favor a merit based system, of which I agree with. Same goes with "chain" migrations, where people are admitted for no other reason than they have family that is already in the country. Once again, that's an aspect of Trump's plan that I happen to agree with.

And I've seen polls that indicate a majority desire for a more thorough vetting process, a majority being against amnesty, and so on.

But on the other hand, I've seen polls where 80%+ of Americans want those law abiding illegals that have been in the country for a period of time be provided with a viable pathway to citizenship and legal status rather than the mass deportations that Trump advocates.

And despite what Idhawk claims, most polls indicate that a clear majority of Americans are against a 2,000 mile long border wall.

I am glad that Trump has brought the immigration issue up for national debate as I think it's long overdue. But what I don't like about him is that he's framed that debate in an atmosphere of fear and prejudice, of arrogance and intolerance. His "Mexico is going to pay for it" was completely unnecessary and unrealistic, his campaign against Muslims a slap in the face millions of American Muslims, his characterizations of illegals as being a bunch of drug running thugs an insult to Hispanics, and so on, is what's divided this country and forced people to become defensive and caused a good many people to not trust anything Trump says on the issue and questio his motives

[idhawkman]

Unless and until the border wall has a consistent, overwhelming majority in favor of it, it's not getting built, at least not in its entirety. Even if there was clear, overwhelming support for it, big ticket government construction projects take decades to get completed, so no way will that such a highly politicized, multi billion dollar project survive the 8 or 10 Congresses and 2 or 3 more Administrations that it's going to take to see the project through. They'll have legal challenges, environmental challenges, and fiscal challenges to contend with, let alone the ever changing political winds it would have to endure.

That's why if I'm the Dems, I'd use it as a bargaining chip: Let Trump have his wall if he compromises on DACA. No sense fighting over something that's not going to happen anyway.

Depending on which poll you look at, there is overwhelming support for the wall. We will soon find out in November.

That's why Trump is not stupid. He has eliminated many of those regulations that would hold up the building of the wall. This is why he's distracting the public with twitter and other things so that the scrupulous eye of the now lazy as hell media won't focus on the deregulation that is happening.

Also, as far as funding goes, he's not stupid there either. To get the path to legalization there will be full "funding" of the wall and the moneys set aside before the pathway is given. Also since the pathway is over 10-12 years, I'm sure that pathway is going to be tied to some level of funding for the wall. E.g. if the wall is funded 10% then 10% of the 1.8Million DACA kids will be allowed to enter their name in the path to citizenship.

[idhawkman]

I have seen polls where a majority of Americans are against a lottery system favor a merit based system, of which I agree with. Same goes with "chain" migrations, where people are admitted for no other reason than they have family that is already in the country. Once again, that's an aspect of Trump's plan that I happen to agree with.

And I've seen polls that indicate a majority desire for a more thorough vetting process, a majority being against amnesty, and so on.

But on the other hand, I've seen polls where 80%+ of Americans want those law abiding illegals that have been in the country for a period of time be provided with a viable pathway to citizenship and legal status rather than the mass deportations that Trump advocates.

River this is just plain disingenuous. He is offering a path to citizenship along with supporting two more "pillars" you already agree with. What seems to be stopping you is the wall but I wonder why that would be stopping you. If you believe that the Lottery and chain migration should be curbed then why would you support those same people strolling across our border? Why would you want the drugs to continue to flood across our border?

And despite what Idhawk claims, most polls indicate that a clear majority of Americans are against a 2,000 mile long border wall.

Again this is misinformation. Trump is wanting 700 miles of border wall and the rest is natural terrain that can be better monitored with other means.

Also, on the "most polls" I'm sure you can not claim that the "HARVARD HARRIS poll is conservative". Add in the clearly biased polls from the last election that said Trump only had a 7% chance of winning and you would be hard pressed to put any faith in "most polls".

I am glad that Trump has brought the immigration issue up for national debate as I think it's long overdue. But what I don't like about him is that he's framed that debate in an atmosphere of fear and prejudice, of arrogance and intolerance. His "Mexico is going to pay for it" was completely unnecessary and unrealistic, his campaign against Muslims a slap in the face millions of American Muslims, his characterizations of illegals as being a bunch of drug running thugs an insult to Hispanics, and so on, is what's divided this country and forced people to become defensive and caused a good many people to not trust anything Trump says on the issue and questio his motives

I'm disappointed in you adopting what the left has fed you on his stances. He did not divide this country. Its been divided for a while now and it was driven to extremes under Obama. Just because Trump shines light on the dark sides of what this government has been doing doesn't make him the divider. I believe in the U.S. and that our citizenship is sacred and should not be given away cheaply.

I read something the other day that made a lot of sense. I may not quote it perfectly but I will share the idea here.


This was written with a picture of multiple DACA protests where the protesters were waiving the Mexican flag and it stated: "how can it be cruel to send people back to the country that they so proudly wave?"

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm disappointed in you adopting what the left has fed you on his stances. He did not divide this country. Its been divided for a while now and it was driven to extremes under Obama. Just because Trump shines light on the dark sides of what this government has been doing doesn't make him the divider. I believe in the U.S. and that our citizenship is sacred and should not be given away cheaply.

Once again your partisan association shows. "It's Obama's" fault. Give me a break. The division was there long before he took office. People seem to forget all the divisive actions taken by previous administrations. Americans have short-term memories and that's why they like to make it seem like things are worse than before because they've already forgotten "before." People live in the now. That's what they remember and like to consider the worst. It's like "The good old days" attitude in reverse.

This was written with a picture of multiple DACA protests where the protesters were waiving the Mexican flag and it stated: "how can it be cruel to send people back to the country that they so proudly wave?"

This I wonder about myself. The La Raza beliefs while trying to run from the nations of their birth make about much sense as me yelling, "I love America" while moving to Canada or Europe.

[RiverDog]

River this (Trump's plan for mass deportations) is just plain disingenuous. He is offering a path to citizenship along with supporting two more "pillars" you already agree with. What seems to be stopping you is the wall but I wonder why that would be stopping you. If you believe that the Lottery and chain migration should be curbed then why would you support those same people strolling across our border? Why would you want the drugs to continue to flood across our border?

The Trump plan I was talking about was the one he advocated during his campaign, not the one that he's been driven to by his acknowledgement of his original plan's unpopularity and his quite laudable desire to compromise. The vast majority of Americans want a pathway provided for those law abiding illegals that have worked her for more than 2 years to obtain legal status. That was not part of Trump's original plan. He essentially wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Where was it that I said that I would want the drugs to continue to flood across the border? If you want to talk about something that's disingenuous, you can start by showing me where I said anything close to that. There are several reasons why I don't want a border wall: First of all, it's the symbolism. It's extremely offensive to immigrants, especially when Trump was making is idiotic claims that Mexico was going to pay for it. Although it's for a different purpose, it conjures up images of the Berlin Wall, complete with the barbed wire and armed guards. Secondly, the cost of it. There are other ways to secure the border without putting a multi billion dollar impenetrable object that's going to take decades to construct and can have funding halted by a simple changing of the guard in the White House or Congress. As a matter of fact, illegal border crossings are already way down, 26% since 2011 and a whopping 75% since 2000.

https://brandongaille.com/23-amazing-il ... tatistics/

By the time we get around to building it, we may be trying to fix something that's not broken.

And lastly, there are environmental concerns. A 700 mile long impenetrable object 12' high is going to disrupt the migratory habits of a number of animals that don't recognize political boundaries. That wall could get tied up in court for years with all the environmental challenges that are sure to come.

Also, on the "most polls" I'm sure you can not claim that the "HARVARD HARRIS poll is conservative". Add in the clearly biased polls from the last election that said Trump only had a 7% chance of winning and you would be hard pressed to put any faith in "most polls".

The polls themselves do not contain winning percentages. What you are referring to is the political analysts that were looking at the various polling data and interpreting them. The polls were actually very close, most well within their margins of error. Hillary Clinton had a 2-5% lead a week ahead of the election, and she won the popular vote by 2.1%. Polls are good at predicting nationwide results, but they are more problematic at the state level. But you're right, the political pundits were way off in this one, a fact that you should celebrate as the predictions may have caused an overconfidence in Clinton voters that may have kept a number of them home.

[idhawkman]

I thought it might be interesting to bring this subject back up now that we are about to find out how much support the President has for building the wall.

Just to recap over the past week, a "Caravan" of 160 Guatemallens started their journey to the US border. That number is now estimated at between 7,000 and 14,000. Trump has threatened and now announced that he will be significantly reducing the foreign funding of Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvadore because they are not helping stem the tide of invaders to the US. (Please don't call them refugees or asylum seekers since they have no interest in seeking refuge in Mexico or Costa Rica - their nearest point of releif).

The mob has broken through the Mexican barriers at the Mexico southern border and are headed to California. I heard a story from an embedded reporter in the mob that they all want to go to California because of the Dem. governor candidates statement on free healthcare for all. (I'm sure Arizona, New Mexico and Texas ar very thankful for that announcement but if you are a California citizen paying the highest state taxes in the land already, this is equivalent to your worst nightmare.)

Watching this mob break through the border of Mexico makes me absolutely certain that our southern border will not hold off the onslaught of this mob and the only thing that would prevent these law breakers from entering our country and sucking the place dry is a very strong wall.

Because of this issue, I believe the Republicans will increase their margin in the Senate, maintain control of the house and yes, again, I am predicting an overwhelming victory for Trump's reelction in 2020.

NOTE: The sizes of these caravans are growing each time they happen. Each time they are successful, more and more people will try this method to get to the U.S. One report I saw is where Middle Eastern and Chinese people are flying to Mexico to join the caravan. I posted in another thread that this would happen and that we just couldn't support millions upon millions of people illegally coming to the US. There's no secret that women are raped, kids are trafficked and people assaulted and killed in these caravans.

Now the important question: What would you do to stop these caravans from happening?

[Aseahawkfan]

Why are you even asking this stupid question? Send the border patrol and military to secure the border. Caravan is easy to stop. It's the ones that come over on the visas and stay or the small coyote groups that are a bigger pain. This caravan will be halted and dismantled. Big caravans are not a big concern.

[burrrton]

Send the border patrol and military to secure the border.

OMFG WHY DO U HATE TEH CHILDREN U HEARTLESS MONSTAR!

Of course I agree with you, and also agree (well, acknowledge) that the biggest problem with "illegal immigrants" isn't people streaming over the southern border.

We know what the issue is, but you watch, you watch, how it gets demagogued to hell and back. Just. Watch.

[RiverDog]

The caravan from Honduras does not change my opinion about Trump's border wall one little bit. As ASF says, caravans are easy to stop. You don't need a wall to stop them. I don't have a problem sending some military support if the border patrol requests it, but leave it to Trump to send them whether or not they're needed simply to rally his base.

I don't know who benefits politically over the caravan happening during an election cycle, but one thing is for sure: Trump's assertation that the Dems are behind it is absurd and completely baseless. It's a hot button issue for Trump's supporters and could rally his base like very few issues could, so I can't believe that any of his opponents would be stupid enough to support it knowing that it could very well backfire on them.

[idhawkman]

The caravan from Honduras does not change my opinion about Trump's border wall one little bit. As ASF says, caravans are easy to stop. You don't need a wall to stop them. I don't have a problem sending some military support if the border patrol requests it, but leave it to Trump to send them whether or not they're needed simply to rally his base.

I don't know who benefits politically over the caravan happening during an election cycle, but one thing is for sure: Trump's assertation that the Dems are behind it is absurd and completely baseless. It's a hot button issue for Trump's supporters and could rally his base like very few issues could, so I can't believe that any of his opponents would be stupid enough to support it knowing that it could very well backfire on them.

See, this is just disengenuous on your part River. How the heck do you know what was requested of Trump or not? Yet you spew forth a bunch of tripe that you THINK is right. Next you'll be saying that Trump lied about being asked to send troops. Its as bad as the circular reporting that coroberated the DOJ/FBI Russian probe.

[RiverDog]

The caravan from Honduras does not change my opinion about Trump's border wall one little bit. As ASF says, caravans are easy to stop. You don't need a wall to stop them. I don't have a problem sending some military support if the border patrol requests it, [b]but leave it to Trump to send them whether or not they're needed simply to rally his base.

I don't know who benefits politically over the caravan happening during an election cycle, but one thing is for sure: Trump's assertation that the Dems are behind it is absurd and completely baseless. It's a hot button issue for Trump's supporters and could rally his base like very few issues could, so I can't believe that any of his opponents would be stupid enough to support it knowing that it could very well backfire on them.

See, this is just disengenuous on your part River. How the heck do you know what was requested of Trump or not? Yet you spew forth a bunch of tripe that you THINK is right. Next you'll be saying that Trump lied about being asked to send troops. Its as bad as the circular reporting that coroberated the DOJ/FBI Russian probe.

Disingenuous my ass! Do you understand what the phrase "Leave it to..." means when used in that context? It doesn't mean that I think that he did, it simply means that I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

[idhawkman]

Disingenuous my ass! Do you understand what the phrase "Leave it to..." means when used in that context? It doesn't mean that I think that he did, it simply means that I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

My sincere apologies then River. I read it the other way it could have been taken since you added the "to rally his base" part.

[RiverDog]

My sincere apologies then River. I read it the other way it could have been taken since you added the "to rally his base" part.

Apology not necessary, but nevertheless greatly appreciated, although I don't see how adding "to rally his base" would have changed the context of the phrase.