Bruce Irvin

[kalibane]

I think what HC is saying and what I'm wondering as well is people are kind of using hindsight (even if it aligns with their thoughts during the draft) that they wish that Schneider and Carroll would have taken Fletcher Cox instead because Irvin's contributions have been limited. But that POV only matters if you can envision how Cos makes a bigger difference.

Cox can't play the Leo, nor would he take snaps from Bennett in the Nascar package pass rushing inside. He'd be a 5 tech at DE. He's not taking snaps from Red Bryant, nor would he take snaps from Mebane on running downs. You're left with him being in rotation with Tony McDaniel and Cinton McDonald. Is he really big enough of an upgrade over those two guys that you think he'd have contributed more than Irvin has?

I'm just not seeing it.

[NorthHawk]

Prior to that draft, I had read at least one article where a scout said Cox was a better pass rusher from the Edge than up the middle. If true, he could have been a pass rushing Red Bryant as he's pretty stout against the run. He played DT on run downs and moved to DE on pass downs in College so he has some ability.
I think that's what some of us were thinking. Whether it's a valid idea is something we will never know.

[HumanCockroach]

I am all about the "we'll never know" thought. Based on how well Cox has performed rushing the passer in Philly, it doesn't look to me like he would have been a good fit as far as rushing the QB, but like you said we will never know, I just don't grasp the concept of Irvin not being "productive" enough for a number 15 pick, because IMO he did exactly what they brought him in to do that first season, and indeed accomplished more than any other pick in the draft rushing the passer, whether people like the pick or not, that is what happened, so I guess I get confused when they insist that isn't what happened.

It past, and it isn't going to be changed, so why concentrate on it? Makes little sense to me. I wanted Foles in the third round, does that mean I am going to continue to question the choice of Wilson then whenever Foles tosses five or six TD'S? Nah, because I am not so hung up on what I would have done, to think I am smarter than the men who just won a SB.

[RiverDog]

[quote="HumanCockroach"]I am all about the "we'll never know" thought. Based on how well Cox has performed rushing the passer in Philly, it doesn't look to me like he would have been a good fit as far as rushing the QB, but like you said we will never know, I just don't grasp the concept of Irvin not being "productive" enough for a number 15 pick, because IMO he did exactly what they brought him in to do that first season, and indeed accomplished more than any other pick in the draft rushing the passer, whether people like the pick or not, that is what happened, so I guess I get confused when they insist that isn't what happened.

According to Coach Carroll, Irvin was drafted to bring some immediate help to what was then a problem area, our pass rush. Somehow the goal of double digit sacks in the rookie season got tossed around as an expectation. Irvin lived up to that expectation in the first half of the season of his rookie year, but pretty much disappeared in the second half.

The strategic reason for drafting Irvin, again as stated by PC, was that he would eventually work into being a Leo. That has not happened, or at least has not happened yet.

Irvin's failure to take a position by storm and make it his own has left us with the dilemma of what to do with him. Is he a situational pass rusher? A conventional OLB? A "spinner"? A Leo?

[monkey]

I think what HC is saying and what I'm wondering as well is people are kind of using hindsight (even if it aligns with their thoughts during the draft) that they wish that Schneider and Carroll would have taken Fletcher Cox instead because Irvin's contributions have been limited. But that POV only matters if you can envision how Cos makes a bigger difference.

Cox can't play the Leo, nor would he take snaps from Bennett in the Nascar package pass rushing inside. He'd be a 5 tech at DE. He's not taking snaps from Red Bryant, nor would he take snaps from Mebane on running downs. You're left with him being in rotation with Tony McDaniel and Cinton McDonald. Is he really big enough of an upgrade over those two guys that you think he'd have contributed more than Irvin has?

I'm just not seeing it.

Great point! Nothing to add, great point.

[monkey]

Irvin's failure to take a position by storm and make it his own has left us with the dilemma of what to do with him. Is he a situational pass rusher? A conventional OLB? A "spinner"? A Leo?

Dilemma? What dilemma? How is having a guy who can play several different positions, has speed to burn and isn't costing us that much a dilemma? I'm guessing that's the kind of dilemma our coaches like solving!

[HumanCockroach]

There are a few that consider Irvin a dilemma, fortunately for the Seahawks, those are a few fans that didn't like the pick, other than those select few, the vast majority of fans, media, and people that actually are involved don't see a young, promising, talented player as such.

[Zorn76]

At the very least, I hope Pete & John bring in somebody new to challenge Irvin.

I understand he does several things that don't always show up stat wise, but he also isn't trending towards being a lock long term in Seattle, IMO.

So while 2 yrs isn't a long sample size, it's sufficient enough to know that an upgrade is possible, perhaps even necessary, to make an already stellar defense better. With so few holes to fill on that side of the ball, we have the luxury of at least exploring that option.

[RiverDog]

Irvin's failure to take a position by storm and make it his own has left us with the dilemma of what to do with him. Is he a situational pass rusher? A conventional OLB? A "spinner"? A Leo?

Dilemma? What dilemma? How is having a guy who can play several different positions, has speed to burn and isn't costing us that much a dilemma? I'm guessing that's the kind of dilemma our coaches like solving!

The dilemma is where is the best place to play Irvin at, and I wouldn't suggest that it's a good problem to have if we are to rationalize his performance by saying that he's learning a new position, which many of us in this forum have done.

[NorthHawk]

When Irvin was drafted, the Defense was on its way to being very good. I wonder if the thought process of PC/JS was, like Harvin, Irvin was to be an addition to the Defense instead of a building block that we normally think of with 1st round choices.
With our FO, it's not beyond possible that was how they were thinking as they look for the positives and often downplay the negatives of players. Perhaps the hope was he would eventually replace Clemons, but if he didn't then they could use him in other ways. It will be interesting to see what they have in mind for him this year.

[HumanCockroach]

That's an excellent point. I do wonder sometimes if people realise just how good this defense is, from position to position. Getting significant snaps is an accomplishment for any rookie on this defense, period, much less garnering multiple starts. Smith is who many here want to compare his last season ( his first as a LB) which imo is fair, but the fact remains that the people that evaluate who is better at playing the position, are the same people that started Irvin every game he was available during the regular season ( meaning the felt he was better, or would become better). Smith had a nice 5 game run, doesn't mean that he was more talented or a better fit, just means he was there to make the plays, and did when the opportunity arose. He deserves all the praise and acknowledgment coming his way, but to think Irvins time has set because of that is jumping the gun quite a bit IMHO.

[I-5]

I just see Irvin as a beast, one of many beasts on defense. Sure, he may not be as smart as Wagner, or as savvy as Sherman, or whatever. But he is a monster athlete that Pete can toy with on his monster defense. I'm just as curious as anyone to see how he pans out, but I sure enjoy the process of finding out more than worrying about it. If someone comes in and beats him out of a roster spot, I'm ok with that, too. As for conventional wisdom, heck, drafting Curry #4 was exactly conventional wisdom at the time, and look what that got us.

[HumanCockroach]

There was an interesting article today on how teams were built, the most interesting aspect of it for me personally, was the break down on teams that had "hit" it out of the park most often with their first round picks. Buffalo, Cleveland etc. There was a few that were competitive ( like the Lions) occasionally, but as a whole, I am ecstatic to see how truly successful the Seahawks have been in their drafts compared to others, and it has directly affected the success of this franchise. Will link later ( if I remember LOL).

[savvyman]

Riverdog - Somehow I ended up on Bruce Irvin's Twitter Page.

Thought you would be pleased with how much work he seems to be putting in at this time of the off-season.

A quick cursory glance shows that Irvin mentions workouts nearly everyday.

https://twitter.com/BIrvin_WVU11

[RiverDog]

Riverdog - Somehow I ended up on Bruce Irvin's Twitter Page.

Thought you would be pleased with how much work he seems to be putting in at this time of the off-season.

A quick cursory glance shows that Irvin mentions workouts nearly everyday.

https://twitter.com/BIrvin_WVU11

Pleased, yes, but not surprised. Work ethic has never been one of Irvin's problems.

I would be disappointed if any of our guys weren't vigorously working out out daily. NFL football isn't a part time job. You have to train as if you're trying to make the Olympic team, because you don't, someone might come along and take your job. You can bet your bottom dollar that all those aspiring soon-to-be rookies are working out daily. I know I would be.

[Eaglehawk]

Riverdog - Somehow I ended up on Bruce Irvin's Twitter Page.

Thought you would be pleased with how much work he seems to be putting in at this time of the off-season.

A quick cursory glance shows that Irvin mentions workouts nearly everyday.

https://twitter.com/BIrvin_WVU11

Pleased, yes, but not surprised. Work ethic has never been one of Irvin's problems.

I would be disappointed if any of our guys weren't vigorously working out out daily. NFL football isn't a part time job. You have to train as if you're trying to make the Olympic team, because you don't, someone might come along and take your job. You can bet your bottom dollar that all those aspiring soon-to-be rookies are working out daily. I know I would be.

All potential million dollar babies.