Immigrant Children Taken From Familes

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump or whoever has to get this fixed. This is not something I as an American want to see happening. This branding a bunch of poor men and women crossing the border illegally as criminals requiring the taking of their children away is not what I want this country to be about. I understand the need to protect the borders, but this isn't the right way to go about it. These sorry sons of bitches in Washington need to get a better policy concocted for processing parents with children crossing the border illegally. This is not a good situation at all. When you have American men and women in border enforcement removing crying children from their parents on television and in pictures, we Americans have a problem that needs to be fixed. That is not what I want to pay for with my taxes for border defense. Trump better get control of this.

[c_hawkbob]

This is a thing Nazis do, not Americans.

[RiverDog]

I recognize that something has to be done about the flood of undocumented aliens entering the country and a lot of this problem is the result of a number of administrations, both Republican as well as Democratic, kicking the can down the road.

However, this is just another example of the Trump Adminstration not thinking this one through before they adapted their "zero tolerance" policy, something that I would have supported had it not resulted in the seperation of families at the border. The "catch and release" policy of previous administrations was just insane. We would spend resources to apprehend illegals attempting to enter the country but turn them loose pending their hearing, and they'd simply disappear into our country of 330 million doing who knows what. But the way he implemented his policy change shows his callousness towards the plight of the underprivileged and those legitimately fleeing an unsafe situation in their homelands. The vast majority of these families are not drug smugglers, violent criminals, or human traffickers. They simply want a better way of life for their families. I'd be doing the same thing if I got caught in a similar situation. Additionally, many, if not most, are not educated enough to understand the right way to apply to legally enter the country and are unaware that they'll be separated from their families.

My biggest beef with Trump's immigration policy, besides his wall, isn't his efforts to stop illegal immigration, it's that he wants to cut in half the number of legal immigrants we accept. We tell those aspiring to enter the country to do it legally yet we cut in half the number of legal immigrants we are willing to accept. That doesn't sound like a person that only wants to concentrate on illegals and criminals. Additionally, Trump's trade policy is going to hit Mexico and Central American economies hard, which will only increase the numbers of people wishing to immigrate. We need to do something about the demand to enter this country, or rather, give them an incentive not to emigrate, and supporting their economy would help decrease that demand.

[idhawkman]

There's a lot of things that are being under reported or misreported to increase the outrage over this. I'll lay out a few of them below and maybe people will have a new perspective on what needs to happen.

1. Human traffic cartels are now popping up in Mexico as big as the drug cartels. They are recruiting kids from central America that they can match up with adults they want in the US. This is why the law under Bush was passed that separates kids from families for "ILLEGAL" immigrants until the adult can be tried. NOTE: This is very important, people who go to ports of entry and request assylum are not ILLEGALLY entering the US. Only those crossing at non-ports of entry are being separated. Also, of the 12,000 kids in custody, 10,000 of them were un-accompanied minors. So there are 2,000 kids in custody separated from their families. Also note, the processing centers you see on TV are not the housing facilities that the kids are housed at. There they have soccer fields, basketball hoops, and mattresses on bunk beds in large tents. Yes, there is a chain link fence around the facility but so are chain link fences around any school's playground. It facilitates the officers being able to look into the facility to ensure things are bing done correctly. A solid wall would demand more border patrol to be inside the facility and they don't have enough border patrol to do this.

2. The Mexican Human Traffickers are purposely sending these immigrants across the border in non-ports of entry to tie up border patrols from the Drug mules. As the border patrols are processing the humans and the kids (who are sometimes abandoned by their "parents" as soon as they see border agents) the drugs are crossing in larger and larger quantities adding to the opiod epidemic in the country.

3. The laws on the books are such that we can not deport these folks until they have a court hearing. There are currently over 600,000 court cases waiting to be done on assylum seekers. The senate is refusing to do their job and approve judges as part of the "resist" movement to help with this backlog. Therefore it could take years before the trial can be heard for these Illegals crossing the border. Another law prohibits holding the kids for more than 20 days. I already mentioned the law prohibiting holding kids with "claimed families" based on the child trafficking that they were trying to stop. Not only are these laws based on written laws by congress but also on multiple case laws. So what is the options, can't deport them, cant hold the kids more than 20 days so what???? Release them into the US? And if you just release them into the US how many of them are being trafficked?

4. Gallup's poll last year shows that there are 170 million people word wide that want to immigrate to the US. If we release these folks, how many more will that atrract to illegally seek assylum? Who pays for that? 170M people is 50% of our total population now. Who employs all those people? It costs $35,000 per year per child to the taxpayers. This is untenable.

5. I get River's point that he doesn't like cutting the legal immigration in half but if we stop illegal immigration and the employment market demands more immigrants to fill those slots, the numbers will appropriately be adjusted.

So to stop the drugs, the human traffickers and normalize the border control, we need to build the wall. This will reduce the number of border agents to patrol the non-ports of entry. Beef up the ports of entry. Approve more judges and assign them to the ports of entry and have the trials quicker than they are now along with working on the backlog of cases. Allow families that are verified family units to be held together at the border until their trial. Assylum seekers are not part of that though, they are not illegal. All of this can be done through legislation and will be binding on not only this president but future presidents. It will also address the case law hurdles.

[burrrton]

This is a thing Nazis do, not Americans.

LOL. No, Bob- loading families onto rail cars and gassing them is what Nazis do. Do you have any idea how insulting this kind of verbal diarrhea is to actual Holocaust victims, survivors, and their families?

Have the self-control to avoid going from 0 to 11 on literally every issue. You having lost your sanity over an election doesn't make complex issues like this simple.

[idhawkman]

Some more info on the immigration debacle at the border.

Full disclosure, over this recent memorial day weekend I traveled to Mexico and went through 3 ports of entry into the US. On one of those occassions, two young girls about 10 or 11 years old were sent through to the border agent with a slip of paper. After 10 minutes each with the border agent, they escorted them to a room with a glass wall where there were 3 rows of filled seats of young kids waiting for a clerk behind a 1/2 door to call them up. I could hardly believe what I was seeing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5pdIywRuj4

[idhawkman]

Border agents explaining what they do and how they handle apprehended Illegals crossing the border.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5799765972001/fox-news-on-frontlines-rio-grande-valley-border

A narrative of the problem:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5799062801001/ingraham-faux-liberal-outrage-destruction-rule-law

[RiverDog]

So to stop the drugs, the human traffickers and normalize the border control, we need to build the wall. This will reduce the number of border agents to patrol the non-ports of entry. Beef up the ports of entry. Approve more judges and assign them to the ports of entry and have the trials quicker than they are now along with working on the backlog of cases. Allow families that are verified family units to be held together at the border until their trial. Assylum seekers are not part of that though, they are not illegal. All of this can be done through legislation and will be binding on not only this president but future presidents. It will also address the case law hurdles.

I agree with everything you said except for the following points:

The wall is expensive and the symbolism it portrays is uncacceptable. I refuse to believe that there aren't less costly and equally effective measures we can use to secure the border.

The other points you raised are valid. However, the Trump Adminstration should have thought about this ahead of time and developed a plan to handle these problems before embarking on their "zero tolerance" policy. His party controls Congress so they have the power to do some of the things you've suggested, yet all he does is blame the Democrats for a law that wouldn't have been a problem had he not decided to go ahead with zero tolerance.

Since 85%+ of Americans object to splitting families combined with the fact that the Republicans control both houses and have the power to pass legislation to address those issues, it will hurt them in the mid terms later this fall unless they get off their duffs and act quickly.

[idhawkman]

So to stop the drugs, the human traffickers and normalize the border control, we need to build the wall. This will reduce the number of border agents to patrol the non-ports of entry. Beef up the ports of entry. Approve more judges and assign them to the ports of entry and have the trials quicker than they are now along with working on the backlog of cases. Allow families that are verified family units to be held together at the border until their trial. Assylum seekers are not part of that though, they are not illegal. All of this can be done through legislation and will be binding on not only this president but future presidents. It will also address the case law hurdles.

I agree with everything you said except for the following points:

The wall is expensive and the symbolism it portrays is uncacceptable. I refuse to believe that there aren't less costly and equally effective measures we can use to secure the border.

$18-25B for border security is a drop in the $3T annual budget and if it stops the illegal immigration problem it would easily pay for itself in about 10 years. If you have a better solution that stops the drugs, stops the child and human trafficking and reduces the load on the border patrols, then I'm listening.

Regarding the symbolism, I don't buy in to this argument since the Vatican has a huge wall around it but no one thinks it is isolationist. The click has chain link fences and gates in it to restrict the flow of people and to know who is going into the stadium but you aren't discrimminated against for going in "if you have a valid ticket". So why is the border any different?

The other points you raised are valid. However, the Trump Adminstration should have thought about this ahead of time and developed a plan to handle these problems before embarking on their "zero tolerance" policy.

They did. They almost had a deal in congress too until Shumer killed it. Trump offered amnesty to 1.8Million DACA kids. Again, this is not just written laws it is also statutory that was upheld by the Supreme court. So just ignoring the law of separating kids from felons is not something to just ignore. Zero tolerance is enforcing the law which were put there through good intensions to help prevent human and child trafficking. If he goes with a 20% tolerance how many kids is that? How many undocumented people are there?

His party controls Congress so they have the power to do some of the things you've suggested, yet all he does is blame the Democrats for a law that wouldn't have been a problem had he not decided to go ahead with zero tolerance.

You know as well as everyone else in the US that Shumer wants this issue for the mid terms since everything else has fizzled out. Therefore it takes 60 votes in the Senate not just 51. So on the face of this, it is ingenuous at best.

Since 85%+ of Americans object to splitting families combined with the fact that the Republicans control both houses and have the power to pass legislation to address those issues, it will hurt them in the mid terms later this fall unless they get off their duffs and act quickly.

Again, republicans don't have the power to pass it on their own but the second part of your sentence is exactly what is wrong. The Dems want this issue for the mid terms instead of fixing the problem. Hell, Shumer even rejected McConnells offer to pass a bill addressing only the child separation issue. So there's no denying what the Dems are up to on this.

[NorthHawk]

So was legislation passed to make this such a problem that didn't happen with previous regimes?
I was under the impression it was a policy change to prosecute each person illegally entering the country and that's why this situation didn't reach the volumes it is today.
If so, the policy can be changed. All it would take is for Sessions to rescind that order or modify it so as to state children are not to be separated from a parent.
That, of course would mean the Trump would have to admit he is wrong. And that rarely happens with supreme narcissists and would put lie to his claim that it's
the Democrats fault.

[burrrton]

$18-25B for border security is a drop in the $3T annual budget and if it stops the illegal immigration problem it would easily pay for itself in about 10 years.

It won't stop the illegal immigration problem- the vast majority of illegal immigrants don't come over the southern border.

[burrrton]

I was under the impression it was a policy change to prosecute each person illegally entering the country and that's why this situation didn't reach the volumes it is today.

The policy change was simply to enforce the law consistently, not an indefensible decision. The problem is (1) this means there are a lot more people being detained, and (2) it's Trump, so it's suddenly Literally Hitler Nazi Germany OMG The Holocaust even though the practice has been going on for years (just on a more subdued level).

The solution is to change the law and to be very, very careful about separating children from parents, which is complicated greatly by:

A. People attempting to enter the US illegally are coached to use children, to claim asylum status when they're caught, and so on (as I'm sure others have covered in detail).

and

B. Democrats don't want this issue to go away, so will resist any effort to fix it (cynical of me to say this, but you watch). [edit- I see ID already stated this, and it's clear he's 100% correct]

[RiverDog]

$18-25B for border security is a drop in the $3T annual budget and if it stops the illegal immigration problem it would easily pay for itself in about 10 years. If you have a better solution that stops the drugs, stops the child and human trafficking and reduces the load on the border patrols, then I'm listening.

Drones, electronic fences, thermal imaging, et al. Increase the number of agents, put them on horseback if you have to.

Regarding the symbolism, I don't buy in to this argument since the Vatican has a huge wall around it but no one thinks it is isolationist. The click has chain link fences and gates in it to restrict the flow of people and to know who is going into the stadium but you aren't discrimminated against for going in "if you have a valid ticket". So why is the border any different?[

The Vatican and the Clink don't have a leader telling those wishing to enter that they're nothing but a bunch of drug running thieves from chithole countries.

They did. They almost had a deal in congress too until Shumer killed it. Trump offered amnesty to 1.8Million DACA kids. Again, this is not just written laws it is also statutory that was upheld by the Supreme court. So just ignoring the law of separating kids from felons is not something to just ignore. Zero tolerance is enforcing the law which were put there through good intensions to help prevent human and child trafficking. If he goes with a 20% tolerance how many kids is that? How many undocumented people are there?

You know as well as everyone else in the US that Shumer wants this issue for the mid terms since everything else has fizzled out. Therefore it takes 60 votes in the Senate not just 51. So on the face of this, it is ingenuous at best.

Then he shouldn't have gone forward with zero tolerance. He's using young children as pawns to get exactly what he wants. To me, it's not worth it to see these families ripped apart in order to secure the border beyond what it is now. I do not feel that there is such a large, imminent danger to the overall security and welfare of this nation that we couldn't have gone about attacking the problem in a little different manner.

Again, republicans don't have the power to pass it on their own but the second part of your sentence is exactly what is wrong. The Dems want this issue for the mid terms instead of fixing the problem. Hell, Shumer even rejected McConnells offer to pass a bill addressing only the child separation issue. So there's no denying what the Dems are up to on this.

If the Dems are playing politics with this issue, then Trump is playing into their hands. The country WILL blame the Republicans. As you are so fond of noting, the mainstream media is liberal, and they will blame Trump and the Republicans regardless of the numbers of Dems needed to pass legislation that could fix the problem. Even the majority of R's are against how Trump is handling this. The issue can't help but hurt the R's.

[idhawkman]

So was legislation passed to make this such a problem that didn't happen with previous regimes?
I was under the impression it was a policy change to prosecute each person illegally entering the country and that's why this situation didn't reach the volumes it is today.
If so, the policy can be changed. All it would take is for Sessions to rescind that order or modify it so as to state children are not to be separated from a parent.
That, of course would mean the Trump would have to admit he is wrong. And that rarely happens with supreme narcissists and would put lie to his claim that it's
the Democrats fault.

No, there's no new policy that caused this. It was happening for the last few decades, but now, the press and left are exploiting it to make Trump look bad since the Russia hoax, Stormy Daniels and so much else hasn't worked for them.

[idhawkman]

Drones, electronic fences, thermal imaging, et al. Increase the number of agents, put them on horseback if you have to.

Riv, they have all of that now. Its not stopping the crossings as I pointed out the crossers are actively looking for the border agents to arrest them so that they tie up the agents from interfering in the drug smuggling.

The Vatican and the Clink don't have a leader telling those wishing to enter that they're nothing but a bunch of drug running thieves from chithole countries.

Really? that's the answer? have you been to the Chithole countries that he was describing? Yes, quite a few of them are "Drug running theives" and murderers, rapists, gang bangers, etc. Let me ask you, how many of those are "Acceptable" to you? How many sex slaves and sweat shop workers? How many opiod deaths are worth the cost of the wall? If it was your kid, what would you sacrifice to keep them safe? No amount of "symbolism" is worth one life to me.

Then he shouldn't have gone forward with zero tolerance.

Again, what percentage is acceptible to you?

He's using young children as pawns to get exactly what he wants. To me, it's not worth it to see these families ripped apart in order to secure the border beyond what it is now. I do not feel that there is such a large, imminent danger to the overall security and welfare of this nation that we couldn't have gone about attacking the problem in a little different manner.

Don't push onto Trump what the traffickers are doing. So let's look at what he just signed into policy with a temporary executive order. No separation of children from parents charged with a felony at the border. That's all we are talking about here, not legal seekers of assylum or people who go to ports of entry or misdemeanors for first offenses. Just the repeat offenders who are commiting a felony. So now they keep the family together which means that he will now be vilified for imprisoning the kids until the court cases are heard. So by being compassionate, he is now holding kids for months if not years instead of the maximum of 20 days. He can't deport them, he can't just let felons go free inside the US so he has to keep them all in holding facilities. And remember, many of these folks claiming to be the kids parents are not really their parents. The kids have been abducted from their homes and used as pawns to try and get an adult across the border or worse, use the child for sex or as a slave. So congratulations, unintended consequences have now made the situation worse.

If the Dems are playing politics with this issue, then Trump is playing into their hands. The country WILL blame the Republicans. As you are so fond of noting, the mainstream media is liberal, and they will blame Trump and the Republicans regardless of the numbers of Dems needed to pass legislation that could fix the problem. Even the majority of R's are against how Trump is handling this. The issue can't help but hurt the R's.

Until Trump turns it around on them again like he has all the other efforts. They'll be seen for what they are, opportunists.

[idhawkman]

Just so I am clear on my position on this issue. It is a complex issue that needs much more than a quick fix with an executive order. It MUST be taken up in the House and Senate to come up with a long term fix. These half measures and band aid fixes are having such unintended consequences that it is immoral and unjust to all involved including the US citizens. They must come up with a better solution and not just act on emotional spur of the moment outrage.

Trump has fixed the policy short term for now so Congress must act before this turns into a nightmare for those kids in a long term lockup situation.

[c_hawkbob]

This is a thing Nazis do, not Americans.

LOL. No, Bob- loading families onto rail cars and gassing them is what Nazis do. Do you have any idea how insulting this kind of verbal diarrhea is to actual Holocaust victims, survivors, and their families?

Have the self-control to avoid going from 0 to 11 on literally every issue. You having lost your sanity over an election doesn't make complex issues like this simple.

Hogwash. Holocaust survivors are aware that marching children off the the gas chambers was not the first step in the chain of events that led up to the holocaust. That it was an incremental progression that started with a scarily similar set of circumstances and verbiage from the government to what is taking place right now. Replace the word "Jew" with "Immigrant" and much of the current hyperbole very closely resembles that of pre-war Germany.

Thankfully Trump has bowed to the pressure from both sides of the aisle on this one and just signed an order calling for an end to the practice.



We can hold our heads up that as a country we didn't tolerate it this time around.

[burrrton]

Replace the word "Jew" with "Immigrant" and much of the current hyperbole very closely resembles that of pre-war Germany.

Bob, if you actually believe this, get help (and for the record, the "hyperbole" is almost 100% coming from lunatics like you).

This didn't start happening with Trump's (mostly misguided) policy change.

Yes, you read that right, Bob- THIS WAS GOING ON UNDER OBAMA, TOO. Half the pictures you see of kids in "cages" were taken during the Obama admin. I could link you to pictures of people carrying signs saying "OBAMA QUIT BREAKING UP FAMILIES".

It only gives you a chubby, and is LITERALLY NAZI GERMANY, now because you didn't vote for the dope in charge.

Get a freaking grip and quit pissing on the memories of those lost in the Holocaust. It's offensive.

[c_hawkbob]

Bite me.

If you can't keep from making this about me rather than the subject matter, I don't want to hear it.

[RiverDog]

Riv, they have all of that now. Its not stopping the crossings as I pointed out the crossers are actively looking for the border agents to arrest them so that they tie up the agents from interfering in the drug smuggling.

Illegal border crossings are at a 17 year low. IMO it is not worth the billions of dollars to build a wall while offending millions of both citizens and foreigners alike in an attempt to get to zero.

Really? that's the answer? have you been to the Chithole countries that he was describing? Yes, quite a few of them are "Drug running theives" and murderers, rapists, gang bangers, etc. Let me ask you, how many of those are "Acceptable" to you? How many sex slaves and sweat shop workers? How many opiod deaths are worth the cost of the wall? If it was your kid, what would you sacrifice to keep them safe? No amount of "symbolism" is worth one life to me.

I can't put a number on it anymore than you can put a number on how many lives it's worth to fight a war on terror in Afghanistan. All I can tell you is that the current situation does not justify the means of which Trump is using to address the problem.

Don't push onto Trump what the traffickers are doing. So let's look at what he just signed into policy with a temporary executive order. No separation of children from parents charged with a felony at the border. That's all we are talking about here, not legal seekers of assylum or people who go to ports of entry or misdemeanors for first offenses. Just the repeat offenders who are commiting a felony. So now they keep the family together which means that he will now be vilified for imprisoning the kids until the court cases are heard. So by being compassionate, he is now holding kids for months if not years instead of the maximum of 20 days. He can't deport them, he can't just let felons go free inside the US so he has to keep them all in holding facilities. And remember, many of these folks claiming to be the kids parents are not really their parents. The kids have been abducted from their homes and used as pawns to try and get an adult across the border or worse, use the child for sex or as a slave. So congratulations, unintended consequences have now made the situation worse.

As I said, he should not have gone forward with his zero tolerance plan until he had addressed the family separation issue. IMO the situation did not justify it. He should immediately rescind the policy until they figure out how to handle families attempting to illegally cross the border.

Edit: I see that he finally came to his senses and put a stop to this practice, which only proves my point that he should have thought about the consequences of his actions in the first place. The man hasn't learned a thing since his first ill fated travel ban that got shoved back in his face by the courts. He does not think things through before he acts.

[burrrton]

Bite me.

If you can't keep from making this about me rather than the subject matter, I don't want to hear it.

FO, Bob- you're the loon that can't dial your outrage over something you just learned about down from NAZI GERMANY, and I'm not going to let you off the hook wiping your ass with actual victims' memories.

[burrrton]

He should immediately rescind the policy until they figure out how to handle families attempting to illegally cross the border.

I think zero tolerance is defensible- the indefensible part is breaking up families when you can verify they are indeed families. Detain them together while you sort out their situations and force Democrats to move to shtting their pants about that and arguing for open borders.

Edit: I see that he finally came to his senses and put a stop to this practice, which only proves my point that he should have thought about the consequences of his actions in the first place.

I don't know the details of it, but it sounds like a "Thanks Heavens" is in order.

[RiverDog]

I think zero tolerance is defensible- the indefensible part is breaking up families when you can verify they are indeed families. Detain them together while you sort out their situations and force Democrats to move to shtting their pants about that and arguing for open borders.

Agreed. I have always been for increased border security, but not like this. His zero tolerance policy was not only unjustified, it was inhumane.

I don't know the details of it, but it sounds like a "Thanks Heavens" is in order.

I don't know the details yet, either, but I suspect you're right. If ever there were a POTUS that needed a healthy set of checks and balances, Trump is it.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm glad that was stopped. I know it was happening under Obama as well, probably under Bush Jr, I don't know. Sometimes we Americans walk around in a haze. Life is so good for most of us that we're more worried about the state of our football team or arguing over some political opinion on values that we forget something like this is happening within our country. Certain things shouldn't be done even in the name of law and order and one of them is removing children from their parents, especially young children.

It's so strange to be a nation so rich and powerful that your primary worry isn't crossing some border illegally to find work and food or whether your home will be bombed, but what's you're going to eat for lunch or do for the weekend. It's like living on an island paradise on a world of mostly problems. I sometimes wonder what percentage humans and on how much land space do people live really well. At the moment it seems mostly Canada, America, Western Europe, a few Asian nations like Japan and South Korea, and Australia and New Zealand. I know there are a few other places within those areas that aren't doing badly like maybe Qatar and UAE, but damn, how it happen this way?

Our president is viewed as giant idiot, a tyrant, a bigot, and so many other negatives. We complain about our politicians on a daily basis. We have psychopaths occasionally coming out of the woodwork to murder a bunch of people. We're the largest 1st world nation in the world. We have a massively diverse group of people living here. Yet somehow we're still living as well as anywhere in the world. How do we make all this work as well as it does? I do not know.

I guess I still understand why people are willing to risk their lives to come to America. For all the bitching and complaining, it's still very good to be an American.

[idhawkman]

It wasn't Trump that mandated the separation of children. It was the law congress passed and upheld when challenged by SCOTUS. Now, after Trump signed that EO the Administration has had to petition the courts to allow it to happen.

I can't wait until we hear from the Dems that it is inhumane to have the kids locked up so long now that they are with their criminal family members which was the reason they had to be removed in the first place.

[Aseahawkfan]

It wasn't Trump that mandated the separation of children. It was the law congress passed and upheld when challenged by SCOTUS. Now, after Trump signed that EO the Administration has had to petition the courts to allow it to happen.

I can't wait until we hear from the Dems that it is inhumane to have the kids locked up so long now that they are with their criminal family members which was the reason they had to be removed in the first place.

The reality is that no one but those who live in the border states and are on the border all day long understand how bad this is. Regardless we should not have our border enforcement officers taking small children from their parents on any kind of mass scale. You talk about criminals, but how many are there? I'm not going to buy there are that many women with small children engaged in such criminal behavior that we need to take their children from them. We can search them if they are drug mules.

On top of that the war on drugs is an utter failure. I hope you're not such a brainwashed conservative you haven't failed to read the fact that prescription medications produced by reputable companies and distributed by legal doctors are the most abused drugs in America. It's not cocaine or big drugs produced in Latin America. It's opiates given by doctors are number one. Drug policy in this country is about as ridiculous as it comes. We have Sessions trying to enact old school policy that doesn't work other than to fill our prisons with often non-violent offenders that have little hope of rehabilitation. It's foolishness and wasted money.

[idhawkman]

The reality is that no one but those who live in the border states and are on the border all day long understand how bad this is. Regardless we should not have our border enforcement officers taking small children from their parents on any kind of mass scale. You talk about criminals, but how many are there? I'm not going to buy there are that many women with small children engaged in such criminal behavior that we need to take their children from them. We can search them if they are drug mules.

Do you read what's been posted before you start blathering on? I'll state it again, of the 12,000 children in protective custody on the border, 2,000 have been separated from the person who claimed them as their children. There are 10,000 of those that were un-accompanied - e.g. their parents sent them alone on the journey or they died on the journey and they have no parents to be "ripped away from".

Now lets address the 2,000 that were "ripped away" from their parents. Many of them can not be proved to be the parent of the child (Sessions is advocating DNA testing now to determine if they are true children of the person claiming them) through questioning or other means. Many of the children are abducted from their homes in other countries to be sold or trafficked into the US along with getting an adult into the US who will never show up for their Assylum trial. Again, we are only talking about the 2,000 here. NOTE: Families who present themselves for assylum at a port of entry are not held separately. They are kept together. Again, the 2,000 are children being brought/smuggled across the border and then when caught they claim assylum (border agents state that many of the adults with the kids will drop the kid and run. If that's their real child, do you think they'd do that?)

On top of that the war on drugs is an utter failure. I hope you're not such a brainwashed conservative you haven't failed to read the fact that prescription medications produced by reputable companies and distributed by legal doctors are the most abused drugs in America. It's not cocaine or big drugs produced in Latin America. It's opiates given by doctors are number one. Drug policy in this country is about as ridiculous as it comes. We have Sessions trying to enact old school policy that doesn't work other than to fill our prisons with often non-violent offenders that have little hope of rehabilitation. It's foolishness and wasted money.

I am under no illusions on the war on drugs. What you fail to acknowledge is that many of the people who were hooked on opiates by over prescribing doctors seek heroin or other opiates after they can no longer get it from their doctors. So the drugs coming across the southern border is contributing immensely to the opiate deaths in the US.

Please go back and read what's already posted if you are going to try and blast someone.

[RiverDog]

It wasn't Trump that mandated the separation of children. It was the law congress passed and upheld when challenged by SCOTUS.

Horsepucky! It was Trump's zero tolerance policy that split those children from their parents. The law existed well before Trump took office and it never resulted in children being seperated from their parents. It was only after Trump went in like a bull in a China shop and implemented his policy without thinking about the consequences. It's a pattern of his: Shoot first and ask questions later. That's the biggest cop out I've ever heard.

I saw on the news this evening that there's a huge problem trying to reunite some 2500 or so kids that were separated from their parents. One child is at a facility in WA while their parents are being held across the continent in NY. It's a huge mess, and no one quite knows how they're going to get these kids back to their parents. What a cluster phuck! Another example of the Adminstration having their heads up their you know what.

[RiverDog]

The reality is that no one but those who live in the border states and are on the border all day long understand how bad this is. Regardless we should not have our border enforcement officers taking small children from their parents on any kind of mass scale. You talk about criminals, but how many are there? I'm not going to buy there are that many women with small children engaged in such criminal behavior that we need to take their children from them. We can search them if they are drug mules.

On top of that the war on drugs is an utter failure. I hope you're not such a brainwashed conservative you haven't failed to read the fact that prescription medications produced by reputable companies and distributed by legal doctors are the most abused drugs in America. It's not cocaine or big drugs produced in Latin America. It's opiates given by doctors are number one. Drug policy in this country is about as ridiculous as it comes. We have Sessions trying to enact old school policy that doesn't work other than to fill our prisons with often non-violent offenders that have little hope of rehabilitation. It's foolishness and wasted money.

Agree with you on both points. A little common sense would tell any reasonable person that the most likely profile of a drug runner or human trafficker isn't some young woman with a couple of pre-schoolers in tow.

The war on drugs is a huge failure, which is one of the reasons why I'm against Trump's wall. Multiple studies have shown that it is much more effective to fight drugs with education and treatment rather than intradiction. It's a damn poor excuse to build a multi billion dollar wall.

[burrrton]

Horsepucky! It was Trump's zero tolerance policy that split those children from their parents. The law existed well before Trump took office and it never resulted in children being seperated from their parents.

Oh for God's sake - yes it did. Read my reply to psycho earlier, then go Google it.

C'mon.

[RiverDog]

Oh for God's sake - yes it did. Read my reply to psycho earlier, then go Google it.

C'mon.

Come on, yourself!

It wasn't the law that created this problem. If it was, it couldn't have been ended as easily as it was. The person who brought it to a halt was the one that started it.

The law was already there before the policy, and the Trump Adminstration either didn't realize the consequences of their actions or didn't care. Either way, this would not have been a problem if not for zero tolerance.

Although the policy has changed, he's still walking through a minefield as a whole new set of problems has arisen:

But ending the practice of separating families still faces legal and practical obstacles. A federal judge could refuse to give the Trump administration the authority it wants to hold families in custody for more than 20 days, which is the current limit because of a 1997 court order.

And the president’s order does nothing to address the plight of the more than 2,300 children who have already been separated from their parents under the president’s “zero tolerance” policy. Federal officials said those children will not be immediately reunited with their families while the adults remain in federal custody during their immigration proceedings.

But the action raised new questions that White House officials did not immediately answer. The order does not say where the families would be detained. And it does not say whether children will continue to be separated from their parents while the facilities to hold them are located or built.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump ... spartanntp

This incident is eerily similar to the very first EO Trump issued when he first took office, his first travel ban. It was a poorly thought out initiative. All of these problems should have been anticipated before he embarked on this policy.

[burrrton]

The law was already there before the policy...

You don't say.

..and the Trump Adminstration either didn't realize the consequences of their actions or didn't care. Either way, this would not have been a problem if not for zero tolerance.

It wouldn't have been as widespread, but I'm sorry, it WAS a problem previously. This isn't excusing Trump- it's acknowledging reality. We didn't start detaining people in 2018, and we have never held ostensive families together while waiting to be processed.

[burrrton]

Yeah, look at this- gddmn Trump:

[idhawkman]

It wasn't Trump that mandated the separation of children. It was the law congress passed and upheld when challenged by SCOTUS.

Horsepucky! It was Trump's zero tolerance policy that split those children from their parents. The law existed well before Trump took office and it never resulted in children being seperated from their parents. It was only after Trump went in like a bull in a China shop and implemented his policy without thinking about the consequences. It's a pattern of his: Shoot first and ask questions later. That's the biggest cop out I've ever heard.

I saw on the news this evening that there's a huge problem trying to reunite some 2500 or so kids that were separated from their parents. One child is at a facility in WA while their parents are being held across the continent in NY. It's a huge mess, and no one quite knows how they're going to get these kids back to their parents. What a cluster phuck! Another example of the Adminstration having their heads up their you know what.

Educate yourself Riv. These pictures are from 2014, not 2017 or 2018. You are being used by the media. Heck, this article even has a democrat admitting what happened under Obummer.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-17/democrat-admits-child-migrant-crisis-was-kept-very-quiet-under-obama

You should look into why the Zero tolerance policy was put in place of the Catch and Release policy, too. You will be enlightened.

[idhawkman]

Per this report, $113B annually for Illegal immigrants is 4x what the wall would cost to stop it. And that doesn't count the costs for drug ODs and more.

https://nationalcenter.org/ncppr/2018/06/19/stop-forcing-black-citizens-to-subsidize-non-citizens/

[idhawkman]

Here's the history and problem with the detention and/or release of the minors and parents. As you can see, this was not Trump that did this but I'm sure people will continue to spew the fake news narrative instead of reading the ruling by the 9th circuit court.
https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/07/06/15-56434.pdf

For those that don't know, there is now a challenge to the Trump EO signed yesterday and based on the document I just posted above, the challenge will be upheld by the courts and again, the children will be caught in the crossfire.

Again, the ONLY solution to this situation is for CONGRESS to act in a comprehensive way which the Dems will reject in any way because they only want the issue and could care less about the kids, family or anything else.

[burrrton]

Per this report, $113B annually for Illegal immigrants is 4x what the wall would cost to stop it.

Again, even assuming that number is correct (I think it's dubious, but haven't read the article), the vast majority of illegals don't come over the southern border.

If this wall was 100% effective, it'd still only be a dent in illegal immigration, which isn't nothing but it seems pretty tough to argue that would be worth its cost, especially considering the less expensive (and likely more effective) options we have.

[Aseahawkfan]

Do you read what's been posted before you start blathering on? I'll state it again, of the 12,000 children in protective custody on the border, 2,000 have been separated from the person who claimed them as their children. There are 10,000 of those that were un-accompanied - e.g. their parents sent them alone on the journey or they died on the journey and they have no parents to be "ripped away from".

Now lets address the 2,000 that were "ripped away" from their parents. Many of them can not be proved to be the parent of the child (Sessions is advocating DNA testing now to determine if they are true children of the person claiming them) through questioning or other means. Many of the children are abducted from their homes in other countries to be sold or trafficked into the US along with getting an adult into the US who will never show up for their Assylum trial. Again, we are only talking about the 2,000 here. NOTE: Families who present themselves for assylum at a port of entry are not held separately. They are kept together. Again, the 2,000 are children being brought/smuggled across the border and then when caught they claim assylum (border agents state that many of the adults with the kids will drop the kid and run. If that's their real child, do you think they'd do that?)

Read what you wrote. Did you expect me to consider 2000 as some inconsequential number? Doesn't change what I wrote. You and fundamentally differ on many ideas. I do not consider you a good person. To me you are a brain-washed conservative defending a proven liar even when his lies are so obvious and pervasive that anyone that defends him as you do is willingly accepting lies on a scale we've rarely seen. How can I take seriously someone like yourself that is so willfully disregarding of truth that I don't know if you're forwarding lies? You support a liar, Idhawkman. Someone extremely untrustworthy and you won't admit it or question your support. That means you believe lying is acceptable and in fact support the lies.

Do you think even a large percentage of the 2000 are criminals? And you want to pay for DNA testing for what will amount to a minor increase in "drug enforcement" or figuring out if they came with their parents or a different guardian? I would prefer an investigation that checks if they're being trafficked. Not sure DNA testing will be necessary for that. Did they find drugs on the person? If we do run DNA on all 2000, then what? Take the kids into a U.S. orphanage or kick some kid back over the border? 2000 is still far too many to be removed.

And what do with 10,000 other children trying escape poverty and suffering? Kick them back over? Let Americans with a sense of compassion adopt them? We have a major problem when we have kids rushing the border to escape.

You're post has nothing I consider changing my view.

I am under no illusions on the war on drugs. What you fail to acknowledge is that many of the people who were hooked on opiates by over prescribing doctors seek heroin or other opiates after they can no longer get it from their doctors. So the drugs coming across the southern border is contributing immensely to the opiate deaths in the US.

People seek drugs for a variety of reasons. Few of them are reasons that require jailing. Most people on drugs are hopelessly addicted to poison or so down on life they use them to escape their misery. Jailing non-violent offenders is a waste of time and has been for some time. Yet here we have Jeff Sessions and his old school attempts to do something that never worked. One of the worst picks of Trump's cabinet for so many reasons.

[Aseahawkfan]

Per this report, $113B annually for Illegal immigrants is 4x what the wall would cost to stop it. And that doesn't count the costs for drug ODs and more.

https://nationalcenter.org/ncppr/2018/06/19/stop-forcing-black-citizens-to-subsidize-non-citizens/

Is this like your article on the estimated GDP growth? The very optimistic, unsubstantiated GDP you claimed was current, but was projected at the high end.

What about the articles indicating that the majority of illegal immigrants coming here are not doing so over the border, but through the Visa program? And they are Canadians, not Latin American? Did you read those articles? They are fairly easy to find.

Like I said, you support a liar. Makes it hard to view what you post as objective or truthful.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yeah, look at this- gddmn Trump:

I knew about that part. If nothing else at least the media's hate of Trump is exposing their hypocrisy. They were so quiet about this during Obama. Obama was not the good man so many tried to paint him as, then again very few people look past their individual beliefs to see what's really going on. Thus why we are in the situation we are in where it's not a matter of which political side you are on, but which liar you choose to believe and ignore their real actions.