Manafort Trial

[Hawktawk]

FYI to my forum mates I've been quoted as saying Trump is the most evil man on the planet. I've not said that. I've attributed that to Vlad Putin and maybe that's overboard as well but I think Putin is the most dangerous man on the planet and certainly very evil. And despite the window dressing of diplomatic expulsions( which trump threw a fit about) and economic sanctions(which he dragged his feet on for months) every significant move hes made has benefited our greatest geopolitical foe. It a completely different discussion but frankly I'm with John Brennan and John McCain, his behavior regarding russia is treasonous starting with colluding to overthrow a presidential election in his favor.

I think Trump is insane, utterly morally depraved and a clear and present danger to the America I've known and loved my entire 58 years of existence on the planet. He has literally decimated the party I've supported straight ticket since I was 18 years old in 1978. Hes a wanna be despot. No hes not hitler, hes not smart enough but hes not just some laughable clown or buffoon as some in here insinuate. Hes permanently damaging our law enforcement agencies, our free and ADVERSARIAL press, which is the lifeblood of democracy minus lap dog Faux. Hes ruining the decorum and the dignity of the office itself, dumbing it down irreparably to where 42% of america thinks its just fine if the president is up tweeting foreign policy or attacking his own justice department from the toilet at 1 AM when he isn't picking a fight with some celebrity etc.

Up is down and down is up. White is black and black is white. Night and day have reversed their positions when 1 % of americans think there is anything remotely OK with this dude having the nuclear football and being our standard bearer to the world. When the economy crashes like it always does, when the market goes down like it always does eventually what will all the cult of personality worship of this despicable excuse for a human being have gotten us?

[RiverDog]

FYI to my forum mates I've been quoted as saying Trump is the most evil man on the planet. I've not said that. I've attributed that to Vlad Putin and maybe that's overboard as well but I think Putin is the most dangerous man on the planet and certainly very evil.

Here's your original quote where you referenced the most evil man on the planet: This is a decorated purple heart awarded Marine (Mueller) and career republican public servant putting america's interests ahead of the most evil man on the planet.

Since you didn't specify who it was you were talking about, you left it to the reader to fill in the blank, and since the statement makes more sense when it refers to Trump than it does Putin, and especially in light of your frequent expressions of extreme dismay for DJT, we were only putting two and two together by assuming that you were referring to Trump as the most evil man on the planet.

Speaking for myself, I'll accept your explanation on that one quote, but I still think that you go way over the top in your characterizations of DJT.

[Aseahawkfan]

It would be nice if Hawktawk calmed down and focused more on making a positive change. DJT is not the guy to make us better, but do not vote for the Democrats just to get him when they are supporting so many bad positions like unlimited, borderless immigration, the complete destruction of religious liberty in all its forms for Christians while telling us all to have a high tolerance for Islam and tolerance towards every religion that isn't Christian, socialist policy aimed at selling us the 1% will be taxed when in every nation that has adopted socialism the middle and lower classes pay for it with higher taxes on everything from gas to homes to food while the wealthy just leave to other nations to avoid taxes, and the complete insane bias and constant rage directed at everyone conservative labeling all conservatives as racist, sexist,and the like while they make jokes about immigrants taking jobs no one wants, insulting conservatives in a smarmy, insulting manner, while supporting politicians like Bill Clinton who is a well-spoken version of Trump and his lying wife Hilary and Barack Obama who makes weak deals with nations aggressively trying to hurt us like Iran and tells businesses they need to give more and more and more while never asking the middle and lower class why don't stop buying cigarettes, boozes, cable TV, and wasting time watching television when they could be taking better care of their health, money, and building skills like successful people do that don't cry to the government for assistance. Not to mention as much as the Democrats called our sexism, is was them that had just as many if not more sexist, piece of trash molesters including Slick Willy and JFK who set the template for sexist, philandering presidents. Now we have the Republican version of Bill Clinton and I don't like it any better other than agreeing with some of his policies.

Hate Trump all you want. I don't like the man, either. I may not consider him the most evil man in the world, but he's a narcissistic, self-centered, rude, womanizing, disrespectful man that is making America look foolish with his total disregard for manners, morals, and the duty of representing a people as a leader in the many ways a leader does.

But I'll be damned if the current Democratic agenda is anything I will support. If you support it, you'll be supporting an even worse demise of morals and this nation than what Trump is doing. The Democratic Candidates make speak in a PC manner, but their agenda is garbage for this nation. They are allowing socialism to infest their party. Socialism, and I mean true socialism, not socialized services within a capitalist base has never worked and never will. It makes everyone poor and makes us all slaves to the state with little control over our lives. Screw that if I plan to let the government tell me what I should eat, drink, what i should take in school or where I should work using violence and bureaucratic punishment to enforce their will.

People need to watch The Lives of Others to see socialism as it really is. It isn't this violent crap you see on TV. It's a cold, controlling, mentally destructive form of government aimed at control of masses under the guise of equality, all equally poor and deprived. Never support that taking root in our country.

[RiverDog]

But I'll be damned if the current Democratic agenda is anything I will support. If you support it, you'll be supporting an even worse demise of morals and this nation than what Trump is doing.

Everyone has different reasons that the use to justify how they cast their votes. J/B you cast a vote in a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that you support that person's and/or party's agenda.

The reason why I intend to vote for a Dem this November is to deny DJT a majority in Congress. Even if Trump leaves office, the executive branch will remain in the hands of the R's, and especially if Kavanaugh is confirmed, the conservatives will be in control of the Supreme Court, so even if the Dems manage to win back the House and the Senate, they won't be able to advance their agenda anyway. But it will pull DJT's stinger and weaken him for his re-election prospects in 2020.

I am not voting for the Dems agenda, I'm voting against Trump. It's my way of giving him the middle finger.

[Aseahawkfan]

Everyone has different reasons that the use to justify how they cast their votes. J/B you cast a vote in a certain way doesn't necessarily mean that you support that person's and/or party's agenda.

The reason why I intend to vote for a Dem this November is to deny DJT a majority in Congress. Even if Trump leaves office, the executive branch will remain in the hands of the R's, and especially if Kavanaugh is confirmed, the conservatives will be in control of the Supreme Court, so even if the Dems manage to win back the House and the Senate, they won't be able to advance their agenda anyway. But it will pull DJT's stinger and weaken him for his re-election prospects in 2020.

I am not voting for the Dems agenda, I'm voting against Trump. It's my way of giving him the middle finger.

And selling your values down the river. Who is giving who the middle finger? Who is changing their values to make a point? Who is controlling who? If Trump knew why you were voting against your values, he would tell you he beat you. And he would have. Anyone changing their values and voting for candidates against what they believe in is losing to Trump.

And whether you like it or not, you vote for the Dems and you are voting for their agenda because that person you voted for will make real change including votes and policy that support their agenda. You have no idea what they will do once in office. If they forward some piece of legislation that is worse than what Trump is doing, then what? You tell yourself it wouldn't have mattered because they were going to win anyway?

I can't respect that stance. You vote what you believe in regardless of the situation. When Barack Obama ran for president, there was a part of me that wanted to see him win just to witness the first president of visible African ancestry (I know he has a multi-ethnic background, but most people ignore his mother of European ancestry). I felt that voting for Obama would have been voting against my values for the wrong reasons. You have to vote your values or we end up in a nation governed by emotional manipulation. That's all Trump is doing is manipulating people for and against him using their worst emotions. Don't let it happen to you. Vote for candidates that align with your values even if your vote isn't going to count much in Washington. It's the only way to keep the election process focused on factors that should be important like what the actual policies do to our nation, whether you believe the candidate aligns with the Constitution, and supporting the values you believe important to this nation.

Find a candidate that aligns with your values that isn't aligned with Trump and vote there. Definitely don't vote for crazy socialist Dems and be sure they aren't. If you find a Dem that aligns enough with your values, maybe go for it. But make sure you aren't voting for some socialist hand-out supporter. Seattle City Council has a scary level of socialist influenced politicians. I wonder how widespread socialist candidates are in Washington. Be careful of them.

[RiverDog]

And whether you like it or not, you vote for the Dems and you are voting for their agenda because that person you voted for will make real change including votes and policy that support their agenda.

How can they advance their agenda with the Republicans in control of the Executive Branch? Oh, and BTW, I've decided to vote for the R candidate for the Senate. The only legislative body I want to see flip is the House. The entire body comes up for re-election every two years so they can easily be removed from power if it appears that the Dems will win the presidency in 2020. I don't want to see either Trump's agenda or the Dems agenda advanced. Give me gridlock or give me death!

I can't respect that stance. You vote what you believe in regardless of the situation. When Barack Obama ran for president, there was a part of me that wanted to see him win just to witness the first president of visible African ancestry (I know he has a multi-ethnic background, but most people ignore his mother of European ancestry). I felt that voting for Obama would have been voting against my values for the wrong reasons. You have to vote your values or we end up in a nation governed by emotional manipulation. That's all Trump is doing is manipulating people for and against him using their worst emotions. Don't let it happen to you. Vote for candidates that align with your values even if your vote isn't going to count much in Washington. It's the only way to keep the election process focused on factors that should be important like what the actual policies do to our nation, whether you believe the candidate aligns with the Constitution, and supporting the values you believe important to this nation.

Find a candidate that aligns with your values that isn't aligned with Trump and vote there. Definitely don't vote for crazy socialist Dems and be sure they aren't. If you find a Dem that aligns enough with your values, maybe go for it. But make sure you aren't voting for some socialist hand-out supporter. Seattle City Council has a scary level of socialist influenced politicians. I wonder how widespread socialist candidates are in Washington. Be careful of them.

Thanks for the advice, but I don't give two hoots in hell whether or not you respect my stance. It's my vote and I'll cast it for who ever I choose and for what ever reason I deem important.

[Hawktawk]

Well OK then. On the same day Manafort is convicted on 8 charges and a hung jury( no acquittals) on ten others) Micheal Cohen pleads guilty to 8 felonies and states that he committed them at the behest of a political candidate who we all know who hes referring to.

I guess we will see how much the Devin nunes etc in the congress will stomach. Its certainly the sleaziest administration in history and its not a close call. Nixon is so off the hook.

As for the discussion of voting for democrats etc look I get the point. I friggin hate the identity politics and whitney tone of the buitt hurt democrattic base. Its why we have a trump frankly is democrats apologizing for america. Cuomo's idiotic comments about america "never being that great" was a shining example and drew hisses and boos from his democratic audience. But my bottom line is I supported the Republican party for 40 years and they gave me this utter POS crazy treasonous groping nutbag who is trying to destroy our institutions and our law enforcement infrastructure to save his treasonous groping insane lecherous ass and that's worse than voting for a democrat. And if i'm not a canary in a coal mine i don't know who is. Country over party Trump must go. Lock his ass up....

[Aseahawkfan]

Well OK then. On the same day Manafort is convicted on 8 charges and a hung jury( no acquittals) on ten others) Micheal Cohen pleads guilty to 8 felonies and states that he committed them at the behest of a political candidate who we all know who hes referring to.

I guess we will see how much the Devin nunes etc in the congress will stomach. Its certainly the sleaziest administration in history and its not a close call. Nixon is so off the hook.

As for the discussion of voting for democrats etc look I get the point. I friggin hate the identity politics and whitney tone of the buitt hurt democrattic base. Its why we have a trump frankly is democrats apologizing for america. Cuomo's idiotic comments about america "never being that great" was a shining example and drew hisses and boos from his democratic audience. But my bottom line is I supported the Republican party for 40 years and they gave me this utter POS crazy treasonous groping nutbag who is trying to destroy our institutions and our law enforcement infrastructure to save his treasonous groping insane lecherous ass and that's worse than voting for a democrat. And if i'm not a canary in a coal mine i don't know who is. Country over party Trump must go. Lock his ass up....

We'll see if it's close. Sorry bud, Reagan's administration funded child murderers in El Salvador and Nicaragua. G.W. Jr. started two wars under questionable circumstances that murdered thousands of people. Clinton negotiated with Serbians that murdered 10,000 Bosnians. Obama signed more drone assassinations absent trials than any president in history. The list of corruption is long and overlooked by Americans like yourself who would rather get caught up in hating a man for being a dick. If Trump's worst corruption is tax charges and philandering, he'll still be ahead of many presidents that engaged in corruption that lead to mass killings unnecessarily. Not to mention all the business ties Cheney and Bush had with companies that profited off the war. You live in a nation with a lot of corruption in the government.

Unless they find murder charges on Trump or Trump manages to start a questionable war or murder a bunch of people, he's still not very high on the corruption scale in my book. I consider promoting slavery, Native genocides and subjugation, questionable wars, and a variety of other behaviors than tax fraud and rudeness far worse. I imagine you're one of those Republicans that ignores corruption when you like the politician, much like your Democratic supporting counterparts. America's list of corrupt regimes is long and documented at this point. Americans just overlook it like you and burrton or justify it because it helps you sleep at night I guess. If you go this mad over Trump, acknowledging a level of murderous corruption during your favorite administrations would be too much for you to handle.

[idhawkman]

As for the discussion of voting for democrats etc look I get the point. I friggin hate the identity politics and whitney tone of the buitt hurt democrattic base. Its why we have a trump frankly is democrats apologizing for america. Cuomo's idiotic comments about america "never being that great" was a shining example and drew hisses and boos from his democratic audience.

You can thank people like RiverDog for this then. He likes stagnation and keeping problems around for decades without any resolutions. They just keep adding up but as long as there is gridlock, he's happy.

But my bottom line is I supported the Republican party for 40 years and they gave me this utter POS crazy treasonous groping nutbag who is trying to destroy our institutions and our law enforcement infrastructure to save his treasonous groping insane lecherous ass and that's worse than voting for a democrat. And if i'm not a canary in a coal mine i don't know who is. Country over party Trump must go. Lock his ass up....

No, they gave you lip service. How many of the people you voted for voted to stop illegal immigration? Stop the drug "crisis"? Stop ObamaCare? Start School Choice? I could go on but you get the idea. What gave you Trump is not only the democrats with their identity politics and forgetting the American people but also the Republican party who kept shoving globalization down our throats and reneging on their campaign promises.

[burrrton]

Americans just overlook it like you and burrton or justify it because it helps you sleep at night I guess.

The tinfoil hat is getting too tight again, I see.

[Aseahawkfan]

The tinfoil hat is getting too tight again, I see.

That your go to for anyone that doesn't buy into the method of overlooking ruthless, power-hungry behavior that you delude yourself with? Just tell them they have a tinfoil hat?

I've seen you justify slavery and native genocide as not "Nazi like" on this very forum, when it is pretty much the very equivalent of what the Nazis did. As though America was built by convincing folk in a kindly manner that this is just a great place to live and they wanted to be slaves and pushed onto small pieces of land. I've seen you justify nuking women and children as some kind non-ruthless behavior. I've seen you make statements that support starting wars that kills thousands and tens of thousands and supporting tyrants that oppress and kill people to control oil as something you also consider non-ruthless, apparently benign behavior.

You're just another ignorant, uneducated neocon that justifies every vile act America has done with whatever narrative your chosen news/historical sources dictate to you. Sorry if I don't care to engage in your game of moral relativism, but wars murdering people over oil that we can buy from various sources and attempts to subvert other nations by installing violent dictators are things we should stay out because it is ruthless, unnecessary behavior.

We do what we do to win the game for control of the world. The game costs a lot of what are known as little people their lives across the world. It's a tired game.

[Aseahawkfan]

You can thank people like RiverDog for this then. He likes stagnation and keeping problems around for decades without any resolutions. They just keep adding up but as long as there is gridlock, he's happy.

The problems don't have a resolution. No matter what Trump does, the problem will still exist. It's only a matter of degrees. Trump is pushing it some degrees in a particular direction, which will hopefully help the problem. But they're going to continue to be there because immigrants from poorly run nations won't stop coming here to escape poverty, violence, and the like.

Just be glad you'll be dead before the electronically addicted, entitled younger generation comes to power. The world the young will build looks awful to me. They have been raised so poorly that I cannot even imagine how America will sustain their position in the world.

But my bottom line is I supported the Republican party for 40 years and they gave me this utter POS crazy treasonous groping nutbag who is trying to destroy our institutions and our law enforcement infrastructure to save his treasonous groping insane lecherous ass and that's worse than voting for a democrat. And if i'm not a canary in a coal mine i don't know who is. Country over party Trump must go. Lock his ass up....

No, they gave you lip service. How many of the people you voted for voted to stop illegal immigration? Stop the drug "crisis"? Stop ObamaCare? Start School Choice? I could go on but you get the idea. What gave you Trump is not only the democrats with their identity politics and forgetting the American people but also the Republican party who kept shoving globalization down our throats and reneging on their campaign promises.[/quote]

Hawktawk is putting hating one man above country, party, or politics. The only thing driving him right now is his hate of Trump. He isn't even looking at Trump's actual politics. He doesn't care. He used to support immigration enforcement, lower taxes, and school choice and religious freedom. Now he just votes because he hates Trump regardless of Trump's politics.

I at least understand your support of Trump. The guy's politics are mostly fine with me. He wants to enforce immigration, he lowered taxes, he's working on improving trade deals that people even on the left have been crying about for years, and other policies that are in line with American values like lower drug costs and a stronger middle class. The left and the media using Trump's bombastic, combative, narcissistic style have turned this into more of a fight against the man than the man's policies. That is too bad. Trump could do a lot of good if he wasn't being turned into some kind of villain by the media.

[burrrton]

That your go to for anyone that doesn't buy into the method of overlooking ruthless, power-hungry behavior that you delude yourself with? Just tell them they have a tinfoil hat?

No, it's my go-to for oddballs like you that see black helicopters and 'smallpox blankets' everywhere they look.

[c_hawkbob]

Hawktawk is putting hating one man above country, party, or politics.

So? It's not only his right but I see it as far more responsible than pledging allegiance to a party without regard to what you believe is better for the country.

[Aseahawkfan]

So? It's not only his right but I see it as far more responsible than pledging allegiance to a party without regard to what you believe is better for the country.

If that man is implementing policies you believe are better for the nation, then voting against him out of hate is right according to the way you think? So if you hate Obama, but he's implementing legislation good for the nation you vote against him? That's your thought process even if it makes the nation worse?

Not the way I think. I don't care if hawktawk votes against Trump as he's a narcissistic asshat that should have never been president. But voting for Democrats and people supporting socialism is not the way to make the country better.

[c_hawkbob]

If that man is implementing policies you believe are better for the nation, then voting against him out of hate is right according to the way you think?

Yes. When it comes to POTUS especially I vote for the character of the individual over party affiliation. That's why even though I stand slightly left of center philosophically I have voted as far left as Green and as far right as Libertarian for the office of President.

[RiverDog]

Manafort just plead guilty to several charges in his 2nd trial, and it looks like he's cooperating with Mueller:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... spartanntp

It should be interesting to see what kind of dirt he has on Trump.

And in other news, River Dog predicts that Idahawk will spin this latest event as no big deal.

[burrrton]

And in other news, River Dog predicts that Idahawk will spin this latest event as no big deal.

In Ida's defense, it's all turned out to be no big deal to this point, at least legally with regard to Trump.

Wake me up when someone has something on the only guy I care about besides "He's a narcissist dick with poor judgment". Everybody already knew that 3 years ago.

[burrrton]

It should be interesting to see what kind of dirt he has on Trump.

I'm reading it has literally nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with some lawyer named Greg Craig (represented Clinton during his impeachment trial and was an Obama White House counsel).

Not sure if this is true or not, but thought it was worth posting. We'll see...

[edit]

I think this is relevant:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ond-report

[idhawkman]

I was just waiting for River to step knee deep into this one. The charges against Manafort last month and the charges he plead guilty to yesterday all come back to the work he did on behalf of the Podesta group. His cooperation with the Mueller probe is against Tony Podesta and not the president. Thanks for the laugh though River....

[Aseahawkfan]

Yes. When it comes to POTUS especially I vote for the character of the individual over party affiliation. That's why even though I stand slightly left of center philosophically I have voted as far left as Green and as far right as Libertarian for the office of President.

Thus the problem with the nation. More concern with the individual's portrayed character rather than a realization that the policies a president represents and implements affect the character of the nation, a far more important measure than the character of the individual. This nation has a creed. American concern should be with following it including the president ensuring the Constitution is implemented within the framework of modern technology. I would vote for an idiot like Trump if I thought he really intended to implement the Republican ideals this nation should be implementing rather than this corporate, militaristic socialism we seem to have decided is the best way to run. Then again most people are more concerned about their entertainment choices than their economic and political freedom.

[Aseahawkfan]

Hopefully this dog and pony show produces some results other than the censoring and control of social media by the government because Russian trolls were posting questionable information about both parties. If that type of information becomes censored, then the government now has carte blanche to censor anyone on social media, including Americans posting what they believe to be true. If the net result of this attack on the president is the censoring of social media to control information distribution, I'm not sure that is a positive.

[c_hawkbob]

Thus the problem with the nation.

And there's the problem with you; you think nothing of telling someone that they are what's wrong with the country.

Next time you think to ask why people don't seem to like you, save it.

[Hawktawk]

Manafort was convicted of money laundering among other things. No american political consultant knows more then he about the power players in the eastern bloc as hes spent the last cou0ple of decades working there as a hired gun.

Donald Trump was a pariah to every lending institution in America after his multiple bankruptcies and was 4 billion in debt. All of a sudden he was flush again. Over the last decade at least most of his ventures are paid for with CASH.His course in scotland hemorrhages money but there seems to be a never ending supply as one example. As a guy who spent 33 years in the golf industry I can tell you the purchase and remodel of Doral was probably a couple hundred million dollars right there. It's no wonder we don't get to see his tax returns. His one main lender deutsche bank has been popped numerous times for laundering eastern bloc money.

Trump Jr said in an interview with a golf publication in 2012 when asked how they could keep building in a horrible business climate for destination golf " we have a lot of money coming in from Russia". Jr has denied making the statement of course but his credibility is as shot as daddys.

As long as Manafort held out and as hard as Bob Mueller has squeezed him it's clear he's got quite a story to tell. Ranking Democrat Schiff on the judiciary committee has been saying for months that they should be looking at Trumps finances and the possibility of money laundering. MOF a good number of the units in Trump Tower are owned by Russian Mafia guys who paid in cash, a classic money laundering technique.

Of course as RD says guys Like Id Hawkman etc will pooh pooh this development as well. But as i've said, Mueller has been tight lipped for a year and a half while the likes of idiot Giuliani and crazy orange witch hammer him but when he drops the rock on Trumps head it will be devastating and weill confirm my description of him as the most dishonest crook ever in the office.

Support for the probe has increased since summer and Trumps poll numbers are dropping like a rock. People are slowly realizing this is a serious legitimate investigation as each witch falls one by one. DING DONG!!!!Manafort bites the dust. Its huge....

[Aseahawkfan]

And there's the problem with you; you think nothing of telling someone that they are what's wrong with the country.

Next time you think to ask why people don't seem to like you, save it.

I have never asked that question and never will. I would think by now you would have realized I don't much care about people liking me. I do not much think of a forum as a place to make friends. I enjoy the intellectual exercise of discussion, not the emotional or social exchange of it. The internet for all its flaws is one of the few places you can find at least a few somewhat educated and intelligent people to engage in moderately aggressive debate. That's the only attraction for someone like myself.

[Aseahawkfan]

Manafort was convicted of money laundering among other things. No american political consultant knows more then he about the power players in the eastern bloc as hes spent the last cou0ple of decades working there as a hired gun.

Donald Trump was a pariah to every lending institution in America after his multiple bankruptcies and was 4 billion in debt. All of a sudden he was flush again. Over the last decade at least most of his ventures are paid for with CASH.His course in scotland hemorrhages money but there seems to be a never ending supply as one example. As a guy who spent 33 years in the golf industry I can tell you the purchase and remodel of Doral was probably a couple hundred million dollars right there. It's no wonder we don't get to see his tax returns. His one main lender deutsche bank has been popped numerous times for laundering eastern bloc money.

Trump Jr said in an interview with a golf publication in 2012 when asked how they could keep building in a horrible business climate for destination golf " we have a lot of money coming in from Russia". Jr has denied making the statement of course but his credibility is as shot as daddys.

As long as Manafort held out and as hard as Bob Mueller has squeezed him it's clear he's got quite a story to tell. Ranking Democrat Schiff on the judiciary committee has been saying for months that they should be looking at Trumps finances and the possibility of money laundering. MOF a good number of the units in Trump Tower are owned by Russian Mafia guys who paid in cash, a classic money laundering technique.

Of course as RD says guys Like Id Hawkman etc will pooh pooh this development as well. But as i've said, Mueller has been tight lipped for a year and a half while the likes of idiot Giuliani and crazy orange witch hammer him but when he drops the rock on Trumps head it will be devastating and weill confirm my description of him as the most dishonest crook ever in the office.

Support for the probe has increased since summer and Trumps poll numbers are dropping like a rock. People are slowly realizing this is a serious legitimate investigation as each witch falls one by one. DING DONG!!!!Manafort bites the dust. Its huge....

I think all these flippers are huge too. Cohen and Manafort together and the financial adviser that has been with Trump for years. If they can't sink Trump with those three giving evidence, they wont' get him. It will all come down to November. If the mid-terms flip the house, impeachment is all but guaranteed. If the Dems flip the Senate, he will likely be out as president. So much is building up to the November mid-term elections. I can't confidently invest until I see the November mid-terms as they will decide how long Trump lasts in office.

Cohen, Manafort, and Weisselberg are wild cards in this investigation. We will see where they take this investigation. I still think they get Trump on financial crimes and not any kind of treason, collusion, or what not. They are going after his finances now and they will find something. Finance laws are like traffic laws: you can always find something someone is doing wrong if you look deep enough.

[Hawktawk]

Mueller already knows the answers and wouldnt give a criminal a deal without good cause and extreme value. especially a guy like Manafort he could already lock up for life with nothing in return.

I agree it comes down to the midterms. Repubs have virtually conceded the house and polls this morning show the Senate is far more in play than previously thought. Add in Brett Kavanaugh's me too moment that blew up over the weekend with Suburban women already abandoning the Rs in droves it looks like the rout may be on. By whatever means necessary Trump and his defenders in the congress need to go...

[Aseahawkfan]

Mueller already knows the answers and wouldnt give a criminal a deal without good cause and extreme value. especially a guy like Manafort he could already lock up for life with nothing in return.

I agree it comes down to the midterms. Repubs have virtually conceded the house and polls this morning show the Senate is far more in play than previously thought. Add in Brett Kavanaugh's me too moment that blew up over the weekend with Suburban women already abandoning the Rs in droves it looks like the rout may be on. By whatever means necessary Trump and his defenders in the congress need to go...

If Trump survives the midterms, he will be so empowered I'm going to have to tune out for two years. His arrogance and narcissism will reach heights as yet unseen. I don't even know I can stomach that very long.

Kavanaugh seems like a screw job by the Democrats at a key time. The lawyer and lady making the claim are both Democratic operatives. If this blows up in their face, it may hurt them during the midterms. We will see. All I know right now is we can't trust either party. We're in bad territory right now where both sides aren't even pretending that truth or facts or values matter any longer. It's all out political war and nothing matters to either side. Dirtiest politics I've seen in my life on both sides. Hopefully from this garbage something better will sprout. We will see.

[idhawkman]

If Trump survives the midterms, he will be so empowered I'm going to have to tune out for two years. His arrogance and narcissism will reach heights as yet unseen. I don't even know I can stomach that very long.

Kavanaugh seems like a screw job by the Democrats at a key time. The lawyer and lady making the claim are both Democratic operatives. If this blows up in their face, it may hurt them during the midterms. We will see. All I know right now is we can't trust either party. We're in bad territory right now where both sides aren't even pretending that truth or facts or values matter any longer. It's all out political war and nothing matters to either side. Dirtiest politics I've seen in my life on both sides. Hopefully from this garbage something better will sprout. We will see.

Its been coming for quite some time. The dems have been getting more and more radical and the Reps have just shook their heads in disbelief. Now, finally, the reps seem to be pushing back and that's what is causing this to be seen as blowing up. The dems have been playing war for a few decades and now the reps are finally realizing it and that the "American Way" is actually under assault. Enough is enough.

[Aseahawkfan]

Its been coming for quite some time. The dems have been getting more and more radical and the Reps have just shook their heads in disbelief. Now, finally, the reps seem to be pushing back and that's what is causing this to be seen as blowing up. The dems have been playing war for a few decades and now the reps are finally realizing it and that the "American Way" is actually under assault. Enough is enough.

That's the narrative you choose to see. I see something else myself with both parties complicit in this nuttiness. I see the Repubilcans letting the Dems go after Trump hoping they give them enough evidence to remove and at the same time maintain political power and save face. Republicans don't like this trade war as it hurts their business supporters. Republicans are very focused on maintaining military power world wide to protect business interests, but you seem to support that even if it draws us into unnecessary and costly wars and conflict.

I haven't seen you mention one time our alliance with Saudi Arabia supported by both Republicans and Democrats when the 9/11 incident you claim is part of the reason you support military intervention was funded by that nation. Fifteen of the 19 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. The national religion of Saudi Arabia is Wahhabi Islam, the most dangerous and virulent form of Islam. The Saudi terrorists learned their hate and desire to build a Caliphate in Saudi Arabia. Yet neither the Republicans or Democrats say anything against that corrupt nation. I never hear you mention that fact at all, yet you think the Republicans are somehow much better than the Democrats. Barring a few politicians here and there, I think both parties suck and have been selling us out for years.

[idhawkman]

Were you drinking last night Asea?

That's the narrative you choose to see. I see something else myself with both parties complicit in this nuttiness. I see the Repubilcans letting the Dems go after Trump hoping they give them enough evidence to remove and at the same time maintain political power and save face. Republicans don't like this trade war as it hurts their business supporters. Republicans are very focused on maintaining military power world wide to protect business interests, but you seem to support that even if it draws us into unnecessary and costly wars and conflict.

What in the blue blazes are you talking about. I have never supported us going to war. I do support a strong defense to prevent war though.

I haven't seen you mention one time our alliance with Saudi Arabia supported by both Republicans and Democrats when the 9/11 incident you claim is part of the reason you support military intervention was funded by that nation. Fifteen of the 19 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. The national religion of Saudi Arabia is Wahhabi Islam, the most dangerous and virulent form of Islam. The Saudi terrorists learned their hate and desire to build a Caliphate in Saudi Arabia. Yet neither the Republicans or Democrats say anything against that corrupt nation. I never hear you mention that fact at all, yet you think the Republicans are somehow much better than the Democrats. Barring a few politicians here and there, I think both parties suck and have been selling us out for years.

You say that you never hear me say anything yet you claim that I have positions on this subject. I do have positions on it. I like Trump's answer to be energy sufficient so that we don't have to blindly support anyone in the middle east. Personally, I could care less if we nuke the s*** out of them and turn the whole middle east into a plate of 6" glass or if we just leave them alone to fight it out amongst themselves.

[RiverDog]

I was just waiting for River to step knee deep into this one. The charges against Manafort last month and the charges he plead guilty to yesterday all come back to the work he did on behalf of the Podesta group. His cooperation with the Mueller probe is against Tony Podesta and not the president. Thanks for the laugh though River....

I'm not sure what it is that I can step in. I've been sitting on the sidelines during this investigation, haven't taken sides yet except to support Mueller in his investigation. Unlike you, I haven't made any predictions like "Manafort won't be found guilty of anything." But if you want to poo-poo what we've seen so far, go right ahead.

Burrton is right. They haven't made any direct connections to Trump. But these guys that have been convicted aren't the White House butler or the piano player. They are a long time personal attorney and a campaign manager that was at the helm during the time these crimes were committed. It's a significant development. Maybe they have dirt on Trump that will link him directly, maybe not, I'm not foolish enough to speculate. We'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

As far as finding impeachable crimes, I agree, there's been nothing revealed yet. But it does go to Trump's character and refutes his "drain the swamp" motto by employing such a group of corrupt and unethical individuals.

[idhawkman]

I'm not sure what it is that I can step in. I've been sitting on the sidelines during this investigation, haven't taken sides yet except to support Mueller in his investigation. Unlike you, I haven't made any predictions like "Manafort won't be found guilty of anything." But if you want to poo-poo what we've seen so far, go right ahead.

Burrton is right. They haven't made any direct connections to Trump. But these guys that have been convicted aren't the White House butler or the piano player. They are a long time personal attorney and a campaign manager that was at the helm during the time these crimes were committed. It's a significant development. Maybe they have dirt on Trump that will link him directly, maybe not, I'm not foolish enough to speculate. We'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

As far as finding impeachable crimes, I agree, there's been nothing revealed yet. But it does go to Trump's character and refutes his "drain the swamp" motto by employing such a group of corrupt and unethical individuals.

Exactly, what crimes?

[Aseahawkfan]

What in the blue blazes are you talking about. I have never supported us going to war. I do support a strong defense to prevent war though.

I'm talking about the clearly stated stance by you that us not being more active militarily was the reason for 9/11,while at the same time not acknowledging that are our activity in the Middle East for many decades prior to 9/11 is why it happened. It is documented that Osama Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia. It is documented that he learned the philosophy he preached while in Saudi Arabia. It is documented America is allied with Saudia Arabia because of our support of Israel. It is documented that we launched attacks into Kuwait from Saudi Arabia, something Osama opposed because he did not think American military power should be on Saudi lands. And this is but one of many military excursions into foreign lands that has created legitimate enemies worldwide because we supported many, many dictators that oppressed and butchered their people.

When I talk to Iraqi people for example, they say it was common among their people to say, "We're doing such and such because America just put in a call to Saddam." They talk about it like it's a given. I never hear Iraqis talking about hating American freedom or even caring. All I hear about is all the trash military action supporting dictators in the Middle East that has made them distrust us. They literally don't care one iota about attacking America and taking away our freedom. Instead they feel America is attacking them by supporting dictators and funding coups to put in puppet governments. This is what international military support accomplished worldwide.

America has way over-stepped it's Constitution when it comes to international military use. They are not defending America, they are attempting to control and influence the world. Not on behalf of the American people, but on behalf of big business and government desiring power. All this is very much documented in places other than our general history books and taught to the citizens of other nations. When many citizens of other nations learn about America, they learn of a very different America that has interfered in their nation often leading to their oppression or harm. From my standpoint this is a misuse of tax funds and misrepresentation of the American people as a whole.

The citizens in these nations know not to hate the American people, but damn do they distrust government and feel they have good reason. In a representative government such as ours, it means we the American people are asleep at the wheel while our elected representatives and those they hire are engaging in behavior we should not condone. It's very much time to tone down the military interaction with other nations that engages in puppet governments and sending money to support kleptocrats, monarchs, and other forms of tyranny.

You say that you never hear me say anything yet you claim that I have positions on this subject. I do have positions on it. I like Trump's answer to be energy sufficient so that we don't have to blindly support anyone in the middle east. Personally, I could care less if we nuke the s*** out of them and turn the whole middle east into a plate of 6" glass or if we just leave them alone to fight it out amongst themselves.

Do you support alternative energy or just drilling until we're out of oil and really at the mercy of foreign nations?

I see. You're one of them. Let's murder billions and assume their all bad because our choice of media paints a particular picture. I have no interest in murdering folk in the Middle East with nukes. I've read on their history and continue to read. They are not nearly as hopeless a some paint them to be. In fact, they were conquered by the Turks for nearly four hundred years. Then the European powers divided them up after WW1. They been trying to find some kind of stability from which to grow for some time now. If they obtain that stability without nations like us interfering in their elections and are allowed to prosper, they will like all humans pick a different path moving away from the violence.

Yes, we hear about the psychopaths in the Middle East. But no one seems to acknowledge they murder and intimidate more of their people than they do Western folk. They have been living in bad times for quite a while. I listened to stories from an Iraqi guy on how his mother suffered from PTSD during Saddam's reign because when her children or husband didn't come home on time, she felt Saddam's scumbag thugs might have taken them. Then she had to live through two wars with bombings where you had to sit there and hope it wasn't you.

I have no interest in this insensitivity towards other humans. We have to help each other. The best thing we can do for the Middle East is let them sort their issues without our military involvement. Let them gain some prosperity and stability. If they can do that, they will have a chance to change just like everyone else once the obtain those things. One thing history has taught me is prosperity and communication drive stability and peace more than anything else. That is what the world needs more of to stop the madness. Instability and poverty drive fanaticism and the hopelessness that leads to much of this world's lunacy from the crime to the bigger atrocities.

[RiverDog]

"I'm not sure what it is that I can step in. I've been sitting on the sidelines during this investigation, haven't taken sides yet except to support Mueller in his investigation. Unlike you, I haven't made any predictions like "Manafort won't be found guilty of anything." But if you want to poo-poo what we've seen so far, go right ahead.

Burrton is right. They haven't made any [i]direct connections to Trump. But these guys that have been convicted aren't the White House butler or the piano player. They are a long time personal attorney and a campaign manager that was at the helm during the time these crimes were committed. It's a significant development. Maybe they have dirt on Trump that will link him directly, maybe not, I'm not foolish enough to speculate. We'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

As far as finding impeachable crimes, I agree, there's been nothing revealed yet. But it does go to Trump's character and refutes his "drain the swamp" motto by employing such a group of corrupt and unethical individuals.[/i]

Exactly, what crimes?

Let's just say that Manafort was Trump's campaign manager during a critical period of time of which the Mueller investigation is interested in and leave it at that.

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm waiting to see what Mueller and the Dems do leading into midterms. If they are going to start a deluge of information right around that time. That would make sense. You don't want to release information too early or too late to influence the vote. Dems have a plan. We'll see if it's a smart plan and how Mueller plays in. If the Dems botch midterms, they are screwed.

[idhawkman]

"I'm not sure what it is that I can step in. I've been sitting on the sidelines during this investigation, haven't taken sides yet except to support Mueller in his investigation. Unlike you, I haven't made any predictions like "Manafort won't be found guilty of anything." But if you want to poo-poo what we've seen so far, go right ahead.

Burrton is right. They haven't made any [i]direct connections to Trump. But these guys that have been convicted aren't the White House butler or the piano player. They are a long time personal attorney and a campaign manager that was at the helm during the time these crimes were committed. It's a significant development. Maybe they have dirt on Trump that will link him directly, maybe not, I'm not foolish enough to speculate. We'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

As far as finding impeachable crimes, I agree, there's been nothing revealed yet. But it does go to Trump's character and refutes his "drain the swamp" motto by employing such a group of corrupt and unethical individuals.[/i]

Exactly, what crimes?

Let's just say that Manafort was Trump's campaign manager during a critical period of time of which the Mueller investigation is interested in and leave it at that.

Sure, now that we both agree that the Mueller appointment is against the law since it doesn't cite any crime to establish the special counsel. Also, the crimes that Manafort is guilty of were in 2005 and not during the Trump campaign. If anything, it was when he was working for Bush and McCain in their campaigns.

[RiverDog]

I'm waiting to see what Mueller and the Dems do leading into midterms. If they are going to start a deluge of information right around that time. That would make sense. You don't want to release information too early or too late to influence the vote. Dems have a plan. We'll see if it's a smart plan and how Mueller plays in. If the Dems botch midterms, they are screwed.

Doesn't make sense. Mueller, a former Marine, worked for Republicans throughout his early days and was nominated to the FBI job by Bush 43, so if anything, he's to the right of the political spectrum, which is why I supported his appointment to special prosecutor. Mueller has kept his cards close to his vest during this entire process, so not only would it be unusual for him to adapt a political ideology that would be in contrast to his past, it would be out of character with the way he's conducted the investigation for him to release information when he just got through obtaining agreements from Manafort. The midterms are only 6 weeks away.

[idhawkman]

I'm waiting to see what Mueller and the Dems do leading into midterms. If they are going to start a deluge of information right around that time. That would make sense. You don't want to release information too early or too late to influence the vote. Dems have a plan. We'll see if it's a smart plan and how Mueller plays in. If the Dems botch midterms, they are screwed.

Doesn't make sense. Mueller, a former Marine, worked for Republicans throughout his early days and was nominated to the FBI job by Bush 43, so if anything, he's to the right of the political spectrum, which is why I supported his appointment to special prosecutor. Mueller has kept his cards close to his vest during this entire process, so not only would it be unusual for him to adapt a political ideology that would be in contrast to his past, it would be out of character with the way he's conducted the investigation for him to release information when he just got through obtaining agreements from Manafort. The midterms are only 6 weeks away.

Remember that Mueller was FBI director when the Uranium One deal was signed off on by him as one of the signers. He left govt. service and started getting sweetheart sole source deals from Comey as director of FBI, too. Lots of information was suppressed by his FBI from an inside informant to that deal also. There could be some reasons for him to be doing what he is and not wanting too much information coming out about what went on back then by this new administration. If Clinton had won, much of what we know has happened would never have seen the light of day.

[Hawktawk]

Now Manafort has been caught double dealing and lying to the special counsel and FBI. His attorneys were apparently regularly briefing the Trump legal team on every conversation he had with Mueller after signing a cooperation agreement and Mueller also says hes lied about any number of things. I heard a former prosecutor describe the arrangement as something straight out of the mafia.

Hes blown his plea agreement but his guilty plea to conspiracy as well as his conviction on 8 counts of money laundering, wire fraud etc etc still stand. He will likely spend the rest of his life in prison EXCEPT....Trump told the NYT yesterday that a pardon for Manafort etc is "not off the table,why would i take it off the table"?

So Manafort, facing probably 5 to 10 years as a cooperating witness is banking on maybe doing 2 and having Trump pardon him for his loyalty after the 20-20 election win or likely lose.....

Anyone else have a problem with this utter criminal enterprise turning our judicial system and rule of law into something out of a banana republic???

Or is it just me I guess I'm unhinged, need to up my meds