Manafort Trial

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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:59 pm

RiverDog wrote:Doesn't make sense. Mueller, a former Marine, worked for Republicans throughout his early days and was nominated to the FBI job by Bush 43, so if anything, he's to the right of the political spectrum, which is why I supported his appointment to special prosecutor. Mueller has kept his cards close to his vest during this entire process, so not only would it be unusual for him to adapt a political ideology that would be in contrast to his past, it would be out of character with the way he's conducted the investigation for him to release information when he just got through obtaining agreements from Manafort. The midterms are only 6 weeks away.


It doesn't have to come from Mueller. It didn't happen, so nothing to write home about. Mueller apparently isn't playing ball with the Dems. That will be good for Trump if he is clean. Then again we might find out at some point this is all a big game by the politicians to get control of social media rather than impeach a president. The only thing I'm seeing is tighter restrictions on social media companies in an attempt to bring them under the thumb of governmental control like mainstream media.

Politicians have amazingly intricate plans which at first seem like they're trying to accomplish one thing, when they're really trying to do something else.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:29 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Now Manafort has been caught double dealing and lying to the special counsel and FBI. His attorneys were apparently regularly briefing the Trump legal team on every conversation he had with Mueller after signing a cooperation agreement and Mueller also says hes lied about any number of things. I heard a former prosecutor describe the arrangement as something straight out of the mafia.


Then that former prosecutor is an idiot. It is malpractice for Trump's lawyers not to find out what is going on with the others and it is the obligation of the Mueller hunters to divulge esculpatory evidence. Nothing mafia about it. If you don't believe me, ask any legal professor like Alan Dershowitz or Jonathan Turley who both have said it is common place for this to happen. Much ado about nothing.

Hes blown his plea agreement but his guilty plea to conspiracy as well as his conviction on 8 counts of money laundering, wire fraud etc etc still stand. He will likely spend the rest of his life in prison EXCEPT....Trump told the NYT yesterday that a pardon for Manafort etc is "not off the table,why would i take it off the table"?

That would only be for the stuff Mueller is witch hunting for. Coercing people into testi-lying is on the table for Trump to pardon, the state charges for the fraud and loan stuff is not on the table for Trump to pardon. Those will stand.

So Manafort, facing probably 5 to 10 years as a cooperating witness is banking on maybe doing 2 and having Trump pardon him for his loyalty after the 20-20 election win or likely lose.....
Again, Trump can't pardon him for what's he's already been convicted for in state court, that's why Mueller sent it to the southern district of NY to prosecute. What is interesting though is how Mueller can't come up with any charges for his original mandate. Moreover, if not for a special counsel being appointed there would be no charges at all. E.g. Popadopolous for lying to Special Council, Flynn for same thing, etc, etc.

Anyone else have a problem with this utter criminal enterprise turning our judicial system and rule of law into something out of a banana republic??? :oops: :oops: :oops:

Or is it just me :evil: :evil: I guess I'm unhinged, need to up my meds :D :D


No, I'm pretty amazed at how the Special Counsel is tearing our judicial system apart also. Any other example of a double standard is peanuts compared to what Mueller is doing to it. DOJ needs to reign him in.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:04 am

What the Mueller move rescinding the plea deal shows is the same thing his extremely detailed filing including names, buildings operated out of, specific keystrokes, date and time of hacks indicting the 12 russians that hacked the Emails in the summer shows. Mueller already knows EVERYTHING.

He knows about twenty times more than you or I know, he knows enough via independent investigations and other witnesses than Manafort thought he knew which is how he trapped him in his lies. Im well aware the cooperation between Manaforts attorneys and the presidents was not illegal. Just stupid if youre Manforts lawyer trying to get him a light deal.And Mueller asked for a delay in the hearing just to get the witches written take home test answers in his possession before witch and his idiot lawyer Giuliani knew the jig was up with his stool pigeon manafort.

Are you OK with Trump pardoning this sleazeball strictly to get himself off the hook?Even if some state charges remain its a pittance compared to what hes facing on the federal charges he pled out to. Why else would he have done this? He was convicted by a jury of 8 charges and 11 more were hung 11-1 by a MAGA hat wearing Trumptard lady holding out. Those could be retried.

How about Cohen pleading out to lying to congress about Trump's quid pro quo with Putin to get his hotel built in Moscow, negotiations that continues for over a month after he was the republican nominee for the presidency including dangling an offer of a 50 million dollar condo to Vlad Putin himself?

This criminal enterprise needs reigned in, not american hero and G man of impeccable integrity and character Bob Mueller.

This treasonous man , this crazy orange witch should face prison.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:58 pm

The pro-Trump people are feeding off the hate of the left. If the left weren't attacking the clown in office, even the Trump-bots would start to notice the emperor has no clothes. Right now Trump takes all that pent up anger at the the stupidity of the left and riles up the right wing. Just goes to show how little these politicians have paid attention to issues like immigration, economics, political correctness, and the pervasive nature of the left along with corporate America creating this fight. As much as I don't like Trump, I hate the left equally. I hate what they want to turn this nation into. I hate all their news stories on all their garbage on celebrites, transgender BS, open borders, and the way they want to turn us into a charity for drug addicts and the weak. I sense absolutely no conviction, no sternness, no sense of responsibility, and no work ethic from the left. Just policies to vilify the wealthy while making the poor seem like better and more noble people than they are with their vice-ridden, irresponsible, and pathetic lives with misery the majority bring upon themselves.

What do you do when you're stuck between these two forces? The absolute lying, corrupt, immoral Trump and Hilary supporters willing to drain this country and turn it into a real crap place to live.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:37 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:The pro-Trump people are feeding off the hate of the left. If the left weren't attacking the clown in office, even the Trump-bots would start to notice the emperor has no clothes. Right now Trump takes all that pent up anger at the the stupidity of the left and riles up the right wing. Just goes to show how little these politicians have paid attention to issues like immigration, economics, political correctness, and the pervasive nature of the left along with corporate America creating this fight. As much as I don't like Trump, I hate the left equally. I hate what they want to turn this nation into. I hate all their news stories on all their garbage on celebrites, transgender BS, open borders, and the way they want to turn us into a charity for drug addicts and the weak. I sense absolutely no conviction, no sternness, no sense of responsibility, and no work ethic from the left. Just policies to vilify the wealthy while making the poor seem like better and more noble people than they are with their vice-ridden, irresponsible, and pathetic lives with misery the majority bring upon themselves.

What do you do when you're stuck between these two? The absolute lying, corrupt, immoral Trump and Hilary supporters willing to drain this country and turn it into a real crap place to live.


Answer: Gridlock.

That's one of the reasons why I voted for a Dem as my House Rep. Deny Trump and the R's a ruling majority. If the shoe had been on the other foot and a Dem were in the White House, I would have voted for the R.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:53 pm

RiverDog wrote:Answer: Gridlock.

That's one of the reasons why I voted for a Dem as my House Rep. Deny Trump and the R's a ruling majority. If the shoe had been on the other foot and a Dem were in the White House, I would have voted for the R.


Sorry, gridlock doesn't do it. Corporate America has too much control. Their only desire is the widest possible consumer base, yet they support anyone that offends the least number of people. Corporate America pays for our politicians to be in office. What do they do if you take a strong stand on anything? Fire you and ostracize you. They catch anything they don't agree with on social media or anything public, they fire you and ostracize you. This is the society in which we live and gridlock will not change it.

The leftists have an agenda. The right has no one that is capable of pushing back other than the wealthy fake douchebag in office. The legal system is making it costly to speak out on anything by anyone. These young folks have no desire to upset the cart. Even if they did, I doubt they would have the attention span to do it. Too busy on their phones and computers. The young have no interest in The Constitution. I doubt it will improve as they age. I think you are seeing the last kick of the generation of Americans that believed strongly in this nation. I think the future is globalism. We're seeing the first generation completely indoctrinated into the globalist agenda in all aspects of their life. It was bound to happen. Too many people to manage and no one can handle it while maintaining a high level of liberty. The fear of death and suffering is a stronger driver than a love of liberty and those laws and values that protect it. People will give up as long as they are fed and entertained regardless of the quality of their life. They'll live in boxes if they can connect to the Internet and play computer games or chat on their phones.

America has been conquered by the lawyers and the bureaucracy in all aspects of institutions public and private.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:23 am

Hawktawk wrote:What the Mueller move rescinding the plea deal shows is the same thing his extremely detailed filing including names, buildings operated out of, specific keystrokes, date and time of hacks indicting the 12 russians that hacked the Emails in the summer shows. Mueller already knows EVERYTHING.


No, what he knows is that none of this goes back to any collusion or any illegal activity by Trump. These are all process crimes and all he's doing is throwing up mud to keep your tax dollars flowing into his pockets.

He knows about twenty times more than you or I know, he knows enough via independent investigations and other witnesses than Manafort thought he knew which is how he trapped him in his lies. Im well aware the cooperation between Manaforts attorneys and the presidents was not illegal. Just stupid if youre Manforts lawyer trying to get him a light deal.And Mueller asked for a delay in the hearing just to get the witches written take home test answers in his possession before witch and his idiot lawyer Giuliani knew the jig was up with his stool pigeon manafort.

Makes no sense. Manafort didn't know anything. They tried to float a lead balloon about him meeting with Assange in England and tried the same tricks about leaking it out to the news but when the Guardian printed it, they got slapped hard. Now the Guardian is going to get sued by Assange and the Mueller probe is being criminally recommended to be prosecuted for their strong arm tactics by Corsi.

Are you OK with Trump pardoning this sleazeball strictly to get himself off the hook?Even if some state charges remain its a pittance compared to what hes facing on the federal charges he pled out to. Why else would he have done this? He was convicted by a jury of 8 charges and 11 more were hung 11-1 by a MAGA hat wearing Trumptard lady holding out. Those could be retried.[/quote]
First it depends on what the charge is against him. If it is a process charge that has nothing to do with collusion after the whole thing comes to an end, yes, I'm okay with it. If it is something else, I'll have to see what it is before making a judgement. second, he's pled to NO federal charges and that's the rub. Mueller wants him to make stuff up so that he can create a narrative. Third, they won't retry the state charges because the other 8 non-Russia related charges, will put him away for the rest of his life anyways.

How about Cohen pleading out to lying to congress about Trump's quid pro quo with Putin to get his hotel built in Moscow, negotiations that continues for over a month after he was the republican nominee for the presidency including dangling an offer of a 50 million dollar condo to Vlad Putin himself?


So explain to me what is Trump's crime in what Cohen says? Cohen is stupid and lied to Mueller that it ended 6 months before it did. That was 2016 which was before he was the nominee. But again, everyone knows he is a real estate developer and everyone knew about the hotel deal in Russia. Its very important to note that the deal never happened. Now explain to me how that could be if Putin has Trump in his pocket and if the sweetheart deal was so good for Trump. What this actually points out is how weak the case is for Mueller since nothing points to Russian collusion on the Trump part and nothing that Cohen pleaded to was illegal for Trump to do. He wasn't president yet and was still running an international R.E. development company you know.

This criminal enterprise needs reigned in, not american hero and G man of impeccable integrity and character Bob Mueller.

This treasonous man , this crazy orange witch should face prison.

So you have accused him of being a criminal but again, what crime has he committed? You accuse him of Treason a charge that carries with it the death penalty and yet you off NO evidence of treason in any way. You may need to rethink your TDS before posting such things.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby RiverDog » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:22 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Sorry, gridlock doesn't do it. Corporate America has too much control. Their only desire is the widest possible consumer base, yet they support anyone that offends the least number of people. Corporate America pays for our politicians to be in office. What do they do if you take a strong stand on anything? Fire you and ostracize you. They catch anything they don't agree with on social media or anything public, they fire you and ostracize you. This is the society in which we live and gridlock will not change it.

The leftists have an agenda. The right has no one that is capable of pushing back other than the wealthy fake douchebag in office. The legal system is making it costly to speak out on anything by anyone. These young folks have no desire to upset the cart. Even if they did, I doubt they would have the attention span to do it. Too busy on their phones and computers. The young have no interest in The Constitution. I doubt it will improve as they age. I think you are seeing the last kick of the generation of Americans that believed strongly in this nation. I think the future is globalism. We're seeing the first generation completely indoctrinated into the globalist agenda in all aspects of their life. It was bound to happen. Too many people to manage and no one can handle it while maintaining a high level of liberty. The fear of death and suffering is a stronger driver than a love of liberty and those laws and values that protect it. People will give up as long as they are fed and entertained regardless of the quality of their life. They'll live in boxes if they can connect to the Internet and play computer games or chat on their phones.

America has been conquered by the lawyers and the bureaucracy in all aspects of institutions public and private.


For the situation you have described, gridlock is the only viable answer short of revolution. Granted, it doesn't solve the problem, but it doesn't make it any worse, either.

I'm not nearly as paranoid with corporate America as you and Cbob are. This isn't like the late 19th century when true robber barrons like Harriman, Rockefeller, and Carnegie ruled the country. I take Winston Churchill's view of capitalism...that it's the world's worst economic system...except for everything else.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby burrrton » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:57 am

You may need to rethink your TDS before posting such things.


It's like watching a real-time, slow motion descent into insanity. "Orange witch"?? LOL.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby RiverDog » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:25 am

Hawktawk wrote:This treasonous man , this crazy orange witch should face prison.


We've covered this ground before. Trump might be guilty of a lot of things, but treason isn't one of them. We would have to be at war in order for that crime to apply. Now if you want to change the term "treason" and replace it with "conflict of interest", I'd be right there with you if there are specific laws he may have violated that prohibits the type of business he's accused of doing with them. But not treason.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:05 pm

burrrton wrote:
It's like watching a real-time, slow motion descent into insanity. "Orange witch"?? LOL.

Kissin' cuzzin to the Wicked Witch of the West. No good witch in sight.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:08 pm

RiverDog wrote:
We've covered this ground before. Trump might be guilty of a lot of things, but treason isn't one of them. We would have to be at war in order for that crime to apply. Now if you want to change the term "treason" and replace it with "conflict of interest", I'd be right there with you if there are specific laws he may have violated that prohibits the type of business he's accused of doing with them. But not treason.


Just to be clear, you are not saying "Conflict of Interest" is a crime are you? Even then, I'm not sure where the conflict would be.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby c_hawkbob » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:49 pm

RiverDog wrote:
We've covered this ground before. Trump might be guilty of a lot of things, but treason isn't one of them. We would have to be at war in order for that crime to apply. Now if you want to change the term "treason" and replace it with "conflict of interest", I'd be right there with you if there are specific laws he may have violated that prohibits the type of business he's accused of doing with them. But not treason.


Just because you've been over it before doesn't mean the matter is settled. I think the term treason is still in play, history will tell. I fully understand that you don't agree, but IMO the final word on it is yet to come.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:20 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Just because you've been over it before doesn't mean the matter is settled. I think the term treason is still in play, history will tell. I fully understand that you don't agree, but IMO the final word on it is yet to come.

Really? What war is declared? Treason can only occur when we are at war. NOTE: Afghanistan and Iraq are not declared wars so please don't bring that into it.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby c_hawkbob » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:06 pm

As I see it there are two possible explanations for my not accepting your determination concerning the term treason;

1- I don't accept your narrow definition of treason (and I don't care about president, it's my opinion that this is a president setting situation) or

2- I don't believe the situation is all on the table yet. I think there may well be a lot of information to which we are simply not yet privy.

(I'll give you a hint, both are true)

As I said, history will tell.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby burrrton » Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:51 am

I think it's hilarious that some of you still think a conviction for treason is a possibility. I say "conviction" rather than "charged" or "accused" because I think some of you demonstrate there is literally nothing too ridiculous to say about political opponents in 2018, and with Dems controlling the House, I'm not sure where the "charge" would have to originate.

I guess keep your fingers crossed? I wouldn't be holding my breath, though.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby RiverDog » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:02 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:

We've covered this ground before. Trump might be guilty of a lot of things, but treason isn't one of them. We would have to be at war in order for that crime to apply. Now if you want to change the term [i]"treason"
and replace it with "conflict of interest", I'd be right there with you if there are specific laws he may have violated that prohibits the type of business he's accused of doing with them. But not treason.[/i]

Just because you've been over it before doesn't mean the matter is settled. I think the term treason is still in play, history will tell. I fully understand that you don't agree, but IMO the final word on it is yet to come.


I don't have the Constitution handy, but doesn't it say that treason is defined as giving aid and comfort to an enemy? How are we going to have an enemy if we are not at war?
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:25 am

RiverDog wrote:
I don't have the Constitution handy, but doesn't it say that treason is defined as giving aid and comfort to an enemy? How are we going to have an enemy if we are not at war?

I think he meant precedent and not president in his last post but I know how he hates people changing his words so he'll have to clarify that if he wants to. That said, if he did mean precedent then its an invalid argument since Treason is the only crime mentioned in the constitution and is not open for interpretation through Precedence. There has to be a declared war for an enemy to be defined as you state River.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:23 pm

Yes, precedent, thank you.

There has to be a declared war for an enemy to be defined as you state River


Where is that written?

Article VI requires Officials to take an oath “to support this Constitution.” 5 U.S.C. 3331 specifies that officials must “solemnly swear" that they “will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic

SECTION 3. Clause 1. specifies that: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open court.

It is saying that a person has to be levying war against the US or giving aid and comfort to the enemy, but it doesn't state that there has to be a declaration of war to define enemy.

And as the constitution is only open for interpretation by the SCOTUS precedent is always in play, including the establishment of new precedent.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby burrrton » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:51 pm

I think it's fairly well-established that a declaration of war is required to establish "enemies" because "enemy" can't simply be left up to the whims of politicians for countries they decide they don't like this week (like they're trying to do with Russia, in fact).

I also may have missed it (honestly), but has anyone even accused Trump of an actual crime yet, or are we still in the fantasy stage for that, too?
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby MackStrongIsMyHero » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:53 pm

Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but it seems the Trump for Treason camp is identifying Russia as an enemy because they covertly meddled (and probably still do) in our affairs, and Trump has business dealings with Russia, so that's treason. So, I guess the United States is everybody's enemy; pretty sure we've got our hand, to some degree, in just about everybody's business. I am open to being corrected/enlightened on this one.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:08 pm

burrrton wrote:I think it's fairly well-established that a declaration of war is required to establish "enemies" because "enemy" can't simply be left up to the whims of politicians for countries they decide they don't like this week (like they're trying to do with Russia, in fact).

I also may have missed it (honestly), but has anyone even accused Trump of an actual crime yet, or are we still in the fantasy stage for that, too?

You are correct, still a fantasy. It will always be a fantasy, too.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:11 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Article VI requires Officials to take an oath “to support this Constitution.” 5 U.S.C. 3331 specifies that officials must “solemnly swear" that they “will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic


You do realize the deal for the hotel in Russia was wayyyy before he took the oath of office, right? Doing business in Russia is not giving aide and comfort anyways. "IF" Russia is an enemy then there would be laws preventing business with Russia but even today, Americans are free to do business in Russia. Not the same as if they wanted to do business in North Korea or Iran though.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:21 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:
Article VI requires Officials to take an oath “to support this Constitution.” 5 U.S.C. 3331 specifies that officials must “solemnly swear" that they “will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic

SECTION 3. Clause 1. specifies that: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open court.

It is saying that a person has to be levying war against the US or giving aid and comfort to the enemy, but it doesn't state that there has to be a declaration of war to define enemy.

And as the constitution is only open for interpretation by the SCOTUS precedent is always in play, including the establishment of new precedent.


As I think about this more, we should use your standard to run Obama up on Treason charges based on the fact that he and his administration knew what the Russian's were doing and did nothing about it.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:33 pm

Neither of your last two posts have a thing to do with what I said. You're arguing against that which you would rather I'd said.

Back on point, you said that there couldn't be an enemy unless we were at war, I'm saying that's not true (or at least that such a determination has not been made). Beyond that all I've said is that we'll see how history judges the matter.

You argue your minutia and deflections and false equivalencies among yourselves.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:38 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Neither of your last two posts have a thing to do with what I said. You're arguing against that which you would rather I'd said.

Back on point, you said that there couldn't be an enemy unless we were at war, I'm saying that's not true (or at least that such a determination has not been made). Beyond that all I've said is that we'll see how history judges the matter.

You argue your minutia and deflections and false equivalencies among yourselves.

So you said that you thought the term Treason was still in play for the POTUS. Please explain for what then.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:37 am

I'm really not going around in that circle again either, but to sum up; I believe there was collusion, you don't. I believe collusion to be potentially treasonous, you don't. I believe there has been a lot of lying and cover up to have gone on since Mueller started his investigation, you don't. I believe there are a whole lot of shady business dealings hiding behind Trumps refusal to reveal his tax records, you don't. I could go on but it really does get dreary and accomplishes nothing.

Where we sit now, at least to my mind, is a waiting game for things to play out and truth to reveal itself. History will tell.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:55 am

The fact is that very few people have been convicted of treason due mainly to the wording in the Constitution. Here's an excerpt from an article about the trial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, tried, convicted, and executed for espionage back in the 50's:

The trial of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg begins in New York Southern District federal court. Judge Irving R. Kaufman presides over the espionage prosecution of the couple accused of selling nuclear secrets to the Russians (treason could not be charged because the United States was not at war with the Soviet Union).

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... ial-begins

For all intents and purposes, treason is off the table.

Besides, a treason charge is not required for impeachment/removal from office, nor is bribery, the other impeachable crime called out in the Constitution. They are simply examples of impeachable crimes. All that is required is for 218 Congressmen and 67 Senators to agree on a charge they think is a "high crime" (the term "misdemeanor" was defined differently back then than it is today) in order for a POTUS to be removed from office.

Good Luck getting 20 Republican Senators to agree with an impeachment charge, one that the Dems probably won't even pursue unless they have confidence that they can successfully prosecute their case in the Senate. They saw what happened to the R's that attempted to remove Clinton.

It's going to take one heck of a bombshell to remove this POS.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:30 am

Agree with both the last two posts.

Yes, we strongly disagree on almost everything POTUS Bob.

Yes, its almost impossible to remove a POTUS after being elected and this one won't be removed either. I still say he gets re-elected, too.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:43 am

idhawkman wrote:Agree with both the last two posts.


Excellent! I'm glad that you finally woke up and smelled the coffee and agree with me that Trump is a POS. Perhaps there's hope for you after all! :lol:
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:46 am

idhawkman wrote:Agree with both the last two posts.

RiverDog wrote:Excellent! I'm glad that you finally woke up and smelled the coffee and agree with me that Trump is a POS. Perhaps there's hope for you after all! :lol:

Of course he's a Person Of Substance!!! Otherwise, why would he have been elected and created such a yuge business?
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby burrrton » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:36 pm

I believe collusion to be potentially treasonous, you don't.


So... a non-crime ("collusion" isn't a crime), with a country that is not our "enemy" (anybody can do business with Russia), is "potentially treasonous".

Makes sense.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby idhawkman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:14 pm

burrrton wrote:
So... a non-crime ("collusion" isn't a crime), with a country that is not our "enemy" (anybody can do business with Russia), is "potentially treasonous".

Makes sense.


You forgot one little bit to the end of your statement Burrton.
So... a non-crime ("collusion" isn't a crime), with a country that is not our "enemy" (anybody can do business with Russia), is "potentially treasonous" PUNISHABLE BY DEATH! Yep, Death for a non-crime is what is being argued here. I wonder if the left is "OKAY" with capital punishment in this case...
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:45 pm

Jeezus, and you wonder why I can't stand to participate in these discussions. That's pure crap and you know it. I've never come close to saying anything like that.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:24 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Jeezus, and you wonder why I can't stand to participate in these discussions. That's pure crap and you know it. I've never come close to saying anything like that.


Although I don't always agree with you, I do wish you would stick around.

"Collusion" is not a crime. But I think the point Cbob was trying to make is that it doesn't really take 'any' crime as we understand the term in order to remove a sitting POTUS from office. What it takes to charge a POTUS with an impeachable crime is 218 Representatives to approve a resolution and 67 Senators to find him guilty of it in order to remove him from office. They could approve an impeachment resolution of spitting on the sidewalk and remove him from office for it so long as they get the required number of Congressmen and Senators to agree. The Constitution is intentionally vague when they said "high crimes".

IMO if Trump knowingly conspired with foreign agents, particularly agents of an unfriendly, adversarial nation like Russia, in such a way that it altered the outcome of the election, I don't really care if there's been a law broken or not, I want him out of office.

Having said that, altering the results of the election IMO would have to be something blatant, like changing Clinton votes to Trump votes, destroying or falsifying ballots, not just some campaign finance law.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:34 pm

RiverDog wrote:For the situation you have described, gridlock is the only viable answer short of revolution. Granted, it doesn't solve the problem, but it doesn't make it any worse, either.

I'm not nearly as paranoid with corporate America as you and Cbob are. This isn't like the late 19th century when true robber barrons like Harriman, Rockefeller, and Carnegie ruled the country. I take Winston Churchill's view of capitalism...that it's the world's worst economic system...except for everything else.


Paranoid? I just stated fact.

Do you believe corporate leadership cares more about The United States Constitution or the well being of their business? Who funds politicians? What do they fund them to do?

This is not paranoia. This is all very open and very much tied to the self-interest of human beings. It would be no different if humans with less wealth had the same power as corporations. The only thing that allows corporate leaders to influence politics is the large effect they have on all aspects of our society naturally. People needing to survive will support what makes their life easier. Corporations are making everyone's life much easier and more entertaining with their toys. There is no motivation to upset this apple cart. Why care that much if the cocoon is comfortable?

I could write a book on this subject. I will shorten it. There are no conspiracies. Everything is happening very much in the open and naturally. There is no fight by the public against it because they do not care about concepts like liberty, honor, decency, or the like. Those ideas are far from their minds. It will continue to be far from their minds. The sheer number of people has increased the scale of everything and there is no going back unless we have some extreme depopulation. Managing 7 billion people and growing worldwide has created a situation where we have no choice but to create efficient, powerful, effective institutions that manage people on a mass scale. Management of people is naturally corrosive to liberty, but helpful for food distribution, housing, and all the needs and wants of humans. If the human goal is survival, it is a natural progression for nations to grow into each other and give up parts of their culture on all sides to form a global culture. It was inevitable as the wandering human group becoming tribes and villages and cities and city states and counties to nations to larger nations to an entire world. When this progression occurs due to large populations of humans growing into each other, we have no choice to blend a global culture for survival. Differences cause conflict, conflict causes resource problems, and the way to eliminate conflict is to homogenize as naturally as possible into a global culture. It is inevitable absent a huge depopulation.

All the ways to accomplish globalization are occurring naturally without conspiracies, from growth in the size of corporations, larger governments, and organizations like The United Nations, G-20 trade meetings, and the like. You can read all the ways America is changing due to the influence of globalism out in the open. No paranoia or conspiracy required. It's more a matter of whether you like it or not and I don't like it. Then again I'm heading to the dinosaur graveyard as the young take over the world until they grow old and see their world change.

Just think of how different this world is from the era of your grandparents or when we were young. I still remember a time without personal computers, cell phones, and the Internet. The generations born now won't know the lack of such things at all. They are just beginning to push even further into a genetic modification meaning human control of all aspects of the genome. This tech will only continue to advance.

I'm just a curmudgeon seeing the future and not liking many aspects of it while at the same time acknowledging that there is no choice in the matter. 7 billion humans need to survive, be entertained, and that many people produces a lot of very smart, ambitious people willing to go where no man has gone before when it comes to science doing whatever is necessary including casting aside old values to progress.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:45 pm

And I'm still betting Trump gets hit harder for tax and finance charges than any kind of collusion or treason, just like his flunkies. There has been no crimes by any of his flunkies in any way involving treason. They have all been tax or finance charges. I see no reason to believe it will be any different for the Scumbag in Charge.

I mean this guy is telling us how great the Saudis are for buying his 40 and 50 million dollar apartments. He wouldn't piss off people with money to protect the country. Trump's style is more about kicking poor immigrants to appease his followers, while truly dangerous folk like Saudi Princes in a nation funding worldwide terrorism would hurt his business. His followers like Idhawkman starts to backpedal and make excuses when King Trump tells him to do so. I love how these supposed "patriotic" Americans are all about keeping them immigrants out and standing up to foreign nations, except when Trump tells them a murdered naturalized American is murdered by the leaders that buy his expensive apartments. Then Trump thinks the Saudis are great guys, so do his followers like Idhawkman who wants this scumbag traitor re-elected. Then he can continue to sell those expensive apartments to the Saudis and Russians, while Idhawkman pretends this scumbag cares about America other than playing his supporters for fools while he fattens his bank account with that Saudi and Russian money.

You keep on supporting this scumbag, Idhawkman. Keep pissing on the flag like Trump does with all his lies and manipulations. You keep buying his BS because you like seeing strongarm tactics used against poor immigrants, while the real foreign nations that are a threat to us get handshakes and "great guy" talk from Trump.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:04 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Paranoid? I just stated fact.

Do you believe corporate leadership cares more about The United States Constitution or the well being of their business? Who funds politicians? What do they fund them to do?


You are referring to corporate America as one separate entity when in fact they are as diverse as our population. Of course, corporations lobby politicians and fund their campaigns, but they are not anymore powerful...and I would argue that they are less powerful...than special interest groups like the NRA, AARP, unions, etc. Corporate America doesn't have loyal voters like unions and the NRA does. Politicians value blocks of voters much more than they do money. Look at our past election, and how HRC out spent DJT. Corporate America's money only goes so far. The place where they can flex their muscle is when it comes to jobs, the economy, and taxes, such as was this past circus with Amazon's 2nd headquarters, and as a rule, the pols they influence most are local, from a governor on down to a city council or county commissioners.

Just think of how different this world is from the era of your grandparents or when we were young. I still remember a time without personal computers, cell phones, and the Internet. The generations born now won't know the lack of such things at all. They are just beginning to push even further into a genetic modification meaning human control of all aspects of the genome. This tech will only continue to advance.

I'm just a curmudgeon seeing the future and not liking many aspects of it while at the same time acknowledging that there is no choice in the matter. 7 billion humans need to survive, be entertained, and that many people produces a lot of very smart, ambitious people willing to go where no man has gone before when it comes to science doing whatever is necessary including casting aside old values to progress.


You have to keep today's environment in perspective. I would much rather live in today's climate than back in the period between the end of the civil war and the Great Depression...sweat shops, child labor, racial discrimination, mob controled unions, police on the take, I could go on and on. Basically go take a look at a 3rd world country like Mexico and that's the type of environment that existed in this country 80-150 years ago.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:04 am

It's like watching a real-time, slow motion descent into insanity. "Orange witch"?? LOL.[/quote]

Yeah the crazy orange witch that keeps talking about a witch hunt. I think its pretty clever actually :D :D :D :D :D . But keep taking your second hand potshots internet tough guy.
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Re: Manafort Trial

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:14 am

idhawkman wrote:

You do realize the deal for the hotel in Russia was wayyyy before he took the oath of office, right? Doing business in Russia is not giving aide and comfort anyways. "IF" Russia is an enemy then there would be laws preventing business with Russia but even today, Americans are free to do business in Russia. Not the same as if they wanted to do business in North Korea or Iran though.[/quote]

Hers your problem Trump water carrier. We went from "nobody met with russians" to "everybody met with russians" to "nothing is wrong with meeting with russians". Now we've gone from "I have no deals with russia, i've never tried to make deals with russia" to "the hotel deal was killed before I ran for president" to "so what if I was having my long time fixer attorney I called a "good man" a few months ago lie to the congress about the fact that I was still negotiating on a hotel and dangling a 50 million condo to the president for life of our greatest geopolitical foe over a month after I was the party's nominee".

And you 39%ers just lap it up like a thirsty dog. Ill never get it as long as I live...
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