SDNY pounces

[Aseahawkfan]

I'm just curious but how much money do you think Trump inherited? Additionally, how much do you think he should have inherited from working with his dad in the complexes.

Trump built himself into a billionaire before he inherited his father's estate. There's a bunch of folks that hate him spreading a lot of misinformation about his wealth and where he achieved it. That's what happens when you hate someone. You spread fake information about them to sow the seeds against the man. Sort of like the Russians are accused of doing, but is ok to do if you agree with the person spreading the information. Typical hypocritical bias by those looking for validation of their beliefs. As much as Trump's sides spreads misinformation, those against him do exactly the same thing. It's pretty much a war of horsecrap getting tossed back and forth with both sides telling us the other sides is roses rather than horsecrap.

I think this is the most lying by two competing parties I've seen in my life.

[Aseahawkfan]

I got a kick out of De Blasio, laying the blame on Amazon by saying that "you have to be tough to make it in New York City." Perhaps he wants some bare knuckles longshoremen or West Virginia coal miners in his city instead of those nerdy techie types.

70% of NY residents approved of the deal, and higher percentages than that in the areas of Queens and the Bronx that would have been the most affected, and oddly enough, a higher percentage of blacks were in support of the deal than whites.

I don't get it.

I wonder if corrupt New York politicians will start screwing with Amazon using governmental power without consequence like they're doing to Trump over this. It wouldn't surprised me. It's amazing how many state tax dollars are being spent to punish anyone that doesn't agree with the Dems in various states and the federal government. For some reason this is all tolerated as "righteous use of the government" as long as it's getting the "rich guy."

[RiverDog]

Trump built himself into a billionaire before he inherited his father's estate.

That's true only to a certain degree. Trump did earn the largest percentage of his wealth on his own, but he would never had been able to do it without being able to utilize his father's fortune. He was a millionaire by age 8 and borrowed over $60M from the old man. He was a little different than the Kennedys whom inherited nearly all of their money from the old man, but to say that Trump "built himself into a billionaire", while technically true, ignores the central role his father played in DJT's financial success . Regardless of how much help he had from his father, Trump's acquisition of wealth wasn't nearly as impressive as someone like Bill Gates, who built his empire completely independent of his parents except for his use of their attached garage.

Besides, the fact that Trump is wealthy isn't what bothers me about him. It's how that wealth has caused him to behave. The founder of the American Football League, Lamar Hunt, a man I greatly admired, inherited his wealth, too, at least the wealth he used to start the league. But all accounts of him indicate that he didn't behave like a spoiled rich kid.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's true only to a certain degree. Trump did earn the largest percentage of his wealth on his own, but he would never had been able to do it without being able to utilize his father's fortune. He was a millionaire by age 8 and borrowed over $60M from the old man. He was a little different than the Kennedys whom inherited nearly all of their money from the old man, but to say that Trump "built himself into a billionaire", while technically true, ignores the central role his father played in DJT's financial success . Regardless of how much help he had from his father, Trump's acquisition of wealth wasn't nearly as impressive as someone like Bill Gates, who built his empire completely independent of his parents except for his use of their attached garage.

Besides, the fact that Trump is wealthy isn't what bothers me about him. It's how that wealth has caused him to behave. The founder of the American Football League, Lamar Hunt, a man I greatly admired, inherited his wealth, too, at least the wealth he used to start the league. But all accounts of him indicate that he didn't behave like a spoiled rich kid.

Have you not read up on Bill Gates? You're thinking of Jobs and Wozniak with the garage story. Gates comes from money. Went to a wealthy private school with Paul Allen. They definitely accessed wealthy family to get things started.

And Warren Buffet's father was rich.

And Jeff Bezos.

I've read up on all these billionaires. They all had some help from family with money or influence. Doesn't change the fact Trump built his name into what it is and become a billionaire before his inheritance. He also won the presidency without his dad's help. He took an already impressively rich background and made Trump a world renowned (now reviled I guess) name. Hate Trump all you want, but saying the man's ascent isn't impressive is a far cry from the truth.

[RiverDog]

Have you not read up on Bill Gates? You're thinking of Jobs and Wozniak with the garage story. Gates comes from money. Went to a wealthy private school with Paul Allen. They definitely accessed wealthy family to get things started.

You are correct, the garage Gates started Microsoft from wasn't his parents, it was a small garage (room for just 2 people) in Albuquerque, NM, and yes, I knew that Bill Gates Sr was a wealthy lawyer, and they were supportive of him. But the point is that Gates, along with Paul Allen, started Microsoft from scratch without any significant assistance from either of their parents. They were self made billionaires.

And Warren Buffet's father was rich.

And Jeff Bezos.

I've read up on all these billionaires. They all had some help from family with money or influence. Doesn't change the fact Trump built his name into what it is and become a billionaire before his inheritance. He also won the presidency without his dad's help. He took an already impressively rich background and made Trump a world renowned (now reviled I guess) name. Hate Trump all you want, but saying the man's ascent isn't impressive is a far cry from the truth.

Read up on Howard Schultz and (the now deceased) Truett Cathy, Not all of them had help from their families. As a matter of fact, this article claims that 62% of all billionaires in the US are self made:

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/269593


My point is that I have a heightened respect people like Gates and Schultz that earn their wealth more so than those that simply build on the family fortune, like Bush 43. That doesn't mean I dislike them or paint them with the same brush stroke as I would someone like Trump who is IMO arrogant due to his social status.

[burrrton]

My point is that I have a heightened respect people like Gates and Schultz that earn their wealth more so than those that simply build on the family fortune, like Bush 43.

And the bigger question is: what business is it of anyone's if someone is rich because their parents took care of them or whether they "made it on their own"?

What gives some people the impression they're due that money in the former vs the latter?

[RiverDog]

And the bigger question is: what business is it of anyone's if someone is rich because their parents took care of them or whether they "made it on their own"?

No one's business, but it doesn't mean we can't talk about their assentation to power and wealth.

What gives some people the impression they're due that money in the former vs the latter?

I wasn't speaking in financial terms. IMO each individual should be treated the same with regard to taxation policy, except perhaps when the estate tax comes into play.

What I was referring to is that there seems to me to be a difference in how well a person understands their own business, how they treat their employees, customers, vendors, et al between those that inherited it vs. those that built it from the ground up, and I say that from my own personal experiences. The former has more of an entitlement aura about them, the latter more down to earth.

It's a generalization as there's exceptions to both (the Kennedys are my favorite examples), but even when I was in grade school, there would be rich kids that bragged that they didn't have to study hard in school because they were going to inherit their dad's farm. Heck, even the football coach gave them preferential treatment knowing that their old man was of heightened importance.

[burrrton]

It wasn't my intention to disagree with you, RD, but merely to add to the point.

I wasn't speaking in financial terms. IMO each individual should be treated the same with regard to taxation policy, except perhaps when the estate tax comes into play.

Death is the event that triggers it, so it's a death tax, and it should be eliminated. It's appalling it was ever voted into law.

even when I was in grade school, there would be rich kids that bragged that they didn't have to study hard in school because they were going to inherit their dad's farm.

Yeah, my most egregious example was a kid I knew in college. His dad had a big Ford dealership on the west side, and he'd been there 7 years (never did graduate), drove a brand new SUV every year, and had his own apartment furnished as nicely as any professor's in town. And he was a complete douche (bragged about the gold card he used for everything, etc).

I will add, however, that I count many rich kids that inherited their family farm (literally) among the kindest, most generous people I know.

That isn't Trump AFAIK, but I'd be careful about assigning behaviors to individuals based on such things.

[RiverDog]

Death is the event that triggers it (estate tax), so it's a death tax, and it should be eliminated. It's appalling it was ever voted into law.

I've gone back and forth on the issue. When it involves a farm or small business, I absolutely agree with you. But if it's just a bank account?

even when I was in grade school, there would be rich kids that bragged that they didn't have to study hard in school because they were going to inherit their dad's farm.

Yeah, my most egregious example was a kid I knew in college. His dad had a big Ford dealership on the west side, and he'd been there 7 years (never did graduate), drove a brand new SUV every year, and had his own apartment furnished as nicely as any professor's in town. And he was a complete douche (bragged about the gold card he used for everything, etc).

I will add, however, that I count many rich kids that inherited their family farm (literally) among the kindest, most generous people I know.

I do believe that I said I was generalizing. I agree, I've met millionaires that you wouldn't have guessed were raised in privilege. And the entitlement phenomena isn't limited to money. We've all seen the "BMOC", or big man on campus, athletes and the stuck up b*tch prom queen and her Barbie doll looks.

That isn't Trump AFAIK, but I'd be careful about assigning behaviors to individuals based on such things.

IMO Trump is the prototypical spoiled rich kid. He's used to having things his way, whether it be with women or his financial dealings. I can tell by his temperment that he's not used to having to deal with an aggressive media or by the way he throws those that disagree with him under the bus. He's never been confronted with a situation this his money couldn't deal with, and it's a frustration for him. It's one of the reasons why I think he's such a poor leader.

And yes, I am careful of such assignments.

[burrrton]

I've gone back and forth on the issue. When it involves a farm or small business, I absolutely agree with you. But if it's just a bank account?

Yes. Even if we ignore the bizarre incentives created, the only difference is the ease with which the money can be confiscated.

[RiverDog]

I've gone back and forth on the issue. When it involves a farm or small business, I absolutely agree with you. But if it's just a bank account?

Yes. Even if we ignore the bizarre incentives created, the only difference is the ease with which the money can be confiscated.

IMO an estate or death tax should not in any way alter the character of the inheritance by forcing a beneficiary to take some course of action that they otherwise wouldn't have had to , but I do think it is a legitimate source of revenue no different than a tax on earned income, at least to a certain point.

I agree with you on philosophical grounds. It's not my first choice to enhance revenue...personally I prefer a national retail sales tax...but with budget deficits growing ever larger and with the alternative being large increases in personal income taxes or Draconian cuts in entitlement programs like SS and Medicare, a relatively modest estate tax seems like a less painful way to fund the government.

[burrrton]

I do think it is a legitimate source of revenue no different than a tax on earned income, at least to a certain point.

It was already taxed.

...but with budget deficits growing ever larger and with the alternative being large increases in personal income taxes or Draconian cuts in entitlement programs like SS and Medicare, a relatively modest estate tax seems like a less painful way to fund the government.

A. That's a strong argument for cutting spending, not confiscating wealth.

B. The revenue generated from the death tax is a rounding error- it's an burden on those who have to pay it, but it doesn't do jack to fund anything.

C. Who has proposed draconian cuts in SS or Medicare (honest Q- the only serious proposal that comes to mind is Ryan's, and it wasn't anything any rational person could call "draconian")?

[Aseahawkfan]

IMO an estate or death tax should not in any way alter the character of the inheritance by forcing a beneficiary to take some course of action that they otherwise wouldn't have had to , but I do think it is a legitimate source of revenue no different than a tax on earned income, at least to a certain point.

I agree with you on philosophical grounds. It's not my first choice to enhance revenue...personally I prefer a national retail sales tax...but with budget deficits growing ever larger and with the alternative being large increases in personal income taxes or Draconian cuts in entitlement programs like SS and Medicare, a relatively modest estate tax seems like a less painful way to fund the government.

Where does stop, RD? Where does it stop? You, me, and everyone else posting has been listening to these politicians asking for more and more and more money and why? Why do they never have enough when they're using a percentage based system? Why do they always find new ways to spend even more money? What are they spending it on? Why do they keep having deficits? Where does it all go? It doesn't make much sense other than purely irresponsible use of government funds by these two parties.

[Aseahawkfan]

You are correct, the garage Gates started Microsoft from wasn't his parents, it was a small garage (room for just 2 people) in Albuquerque, NM, and yes, I knew that Bill Gates Sr was a wealthy lawyer, and they were supportive of him. But the point is that Gates, along with Paul Allen, started Microsoft from scratch without any significant assistance from either of their parents. They were self made billionaires.

I asked you if you read up on Bill Gates. Gates and Allan did not start from a garage. Not sure why you think that is the case. Gates definitely had help from mom and dad. Maybe not as much, but I have no idea how much, only that it was substantial.

Read up on Howard Schultz and (the now deceased) Truett Cathy, Not all of them had help from their families. As a matter of fact, this article claims that 62% of all billionaires in the US are self made.

More like you have a particular hatred of Trump and don't want to give him credit for much.

I know plenty of billionaires are self-made. Point is plenty are also from wealth. It's a mix. Trump definitely enhanced his family's wealth substantially in a very hard business in a very hard market.

[burrrton]

I know plenty of billionaires are self-made.

Most are, in fact, and the percentage is going up every year last I read.

[Aseahawkfan]

Most are, in fact, and the percentage is going up every year last I read.

We had this discussion a year or so ago. What counts as self-made? Starting from zero or starting from what level of wealth? Trump did not inherit billions. He built himself into a billionaire with some help from his parents.

Then there is someone like Cuban who started from a large middle class family and worked his way up. Very much self-made from the middle class.

There are the obvious inherited billionaires like the Walmart heirs.

Then there is someone like Bezos who came from a very wealthy family and received an excellent education and contacts, but built Amazon from the ground up for the most part. He'd still be considered to come from wealth.

Then there is Buffett. Also from a very well off family with a politically active father with connections.

Is coming up from a millionaire family to a billionaire self-made? How do they count it?

We all know no other nation in the world other than maybe China produces more wealth and billionaires. What constitutes self-made differs depending on who is asking. Right now RD is taking shots at Trump because he hates him, but the fact is Donald built up the Trump name into what it is. If not for Donald, the Trumps are some rich family in New York no one would know much of. Whether they would have become billionaires who can say. All we know for certain is Trump made himself a billionaire and a household name. He, not his father, is who is known for the Trump name.

[RiverDog]

We're veering off on a bit of a tangent here. The manner in which DJT acquired his wealth wasn't my point. My point was that his behavior is that of a spoiled rich kid.

As far as the estate tax goes, I don't like it. The problem is replacing lost revenue from it. Once you take entitlements like SS and Medicare out of the equation, there isn't enough potential savings in other areas to balance the budget and reduce the deficit. Hell, even Ronald Reagan with all of his spending cuts never even submitted a balanced budget.

I am a proponent of a consumption tax like the "Fair Tax", ie the National Retail Sales Tax. It's either that or be dragged down the road to socialism.

[burrrton]

Is coming up from a millionaire family to a billionaire self-made? How do they count it?

That can be debated, but I think it's generally considered "didn't inherit their wealth".

Trump inherited hundreds of millions, so I don't think he counts as "self-made" (but rather simply "successful"?), but someone who merely came from a well-off family or got a good education does.

[burrrton]

The problem is replacing lost revenue from it.

Again, the revenue produced from it is a rounding error- it's literally insignificant when considering how SS/Medicare/Medicaid have to be funded.

Proponents of it are only proponents because they either (1) think successful people are an abomination, or (2) don't realize how little it generates, or both.

[idhawkman]

We're veering off on a bit of a tangent here. The manner in which DJT acquired his wealth wasn't my point. My point was that his behavior is that of a spoiled rich kid.

What a ridiculous statement. HE acts like a guy who sells outrageously flamboyant office and living spaces based on prestige and status but he talks to and empowers the people who actually build it. You don't like his marketing is all it is Riv but it is what is needed to sell ideas that have truly been bogged down in the mire of Washington DC. Like the Chinese proverb says, when the student is ready the teacher will emerge. When we as a nation were ready the leader emerged just like it has everytime in our past. Just like Lincoln, Roosevelt et al have in the past, Trump is the guy to step into the light and is trying to bring us back from the darkness even with 90%+ negative press, an opposition party and more. We get it, some of you are on the other side of him but if you stop and put that aside for a moment and look at what he's actually done then you may understand that his method of accomplishing the goal was not your norm but it is effective. Just like the tough talk in the beginning with N. Korea, people said it would lead to a war with N. Korea but in the end it is what was needed to de-escalate the war Obama was about to declare with them. There's many more examples I could go into on trade, climate change, economy and more but you wouldn't read it, I'm sure.

As far as the estate tax goes, I don't like it. The problem is replacing lost revenue from it. Once you take entitlements like SS and Medicare out of the equation, there isn't enough potential savings in other areas to balance the budget and reduce the deficit. Hell, even Ronald Reagan with all of his spending cuts never even submitted a balanced budget.

Typical. Don't mind that he was winning the cold war against Russia and had a plan on how to do it and it actually worked. Nope, forget all of that. Forget that when the dividend was suppose to be realized, Clinton killed it with regulation and other policies.

I am a proponent of a consumption tax like the "Fair Tax", ie the National Retail Sales Tax. It's either that or be dragged down the road to socialism.

I don't agree with any MORE tax. We don't have a revenue problem in the US, we have a spending problem. Address that first and then if it is not enough, then we can readdress the tax issue.

[idhawkman]

That can be debated, but I think it's generally considered "didn't inherit their wealth".

Trump inherited hundreds of millions, so I don't think he counts as "self-made" (but rather simply "successful"?), but someone who merely came from a well-off family or got a good education does.

Here's where the rub is, what he inherited and what he got to start his empire are two different things. He got $1M from his father to start his business downtown Manhattan. That's it! Well, and he got his college education just like so many other well to do kids get.

After he built his empire downtown his parents died and he inherited even more money (the hundreds of millions you talk about even though he has siblings he had to share it with). So often people lump that inherited amount in to what it took him to build his empire but the truth is, he started it himself against his father's wishes (His father never wanted him to move out of the projects of Queens) and he did it with just $1M that he leveraged into his empire.

Have any of you listened to or read "The Art of the Deal"?

[RiverDog]

Is coming up from a millionaire family to a billionaire self-made? How do they count it?

Yes. It doesn't take much to be considered a millionaire. You can make as little as $80K a year with no inheritance and have well over $1M in net worth. But I get your point, ie that Bill Gates Sr., although not a billionaire, is probably in the top 10% of income earners and provided a superior environment for his son to develop the skills he used to build his business. But it's comparing apples and oranges to say that Gates acquired his wealth in anywhere near the same manner that Trump did.

Trump inherited hundreds of millions, so I don't think he counts as "self-made" (but rather simply "successful"?), but someone who merely came from a well-off family or got a good education does.

Precisely.

[burrrton]

Have any of you listened to or read "The Art of the Deal"?

No, nor will I, but I accept your explanation.

Don't you find it a little uncomfortable, though, calling someone 'self-made' when they start their adult life as a millionaire (as you describe)? Sure, he turned it into much more as a successful businessman, but that sounds an awful like he inherited some wealth.

And regardless, I don't engage in the politics of envy and grievance so I don't fault him either way.

[RiverDog]

And regardless, I don't engage in the politics of envy and grievance so I don't fault him either way.

Neither do I, and I apologise for leading the thread off on this tangent. My point was about Trump's behavior as a spoiled rich kid, not how he aquired his wealth.

[Aseahawkfan]

No, nor will I, but I accept your explanation.

Don't you find it a little uncomfortable, though, calling someone 'self-made' when they start their adult life as a millionaire (as you describe)? Sure, he turned it into much more as a successful businessman, but that sounds an awful like he inherited some wealth.

And regardless, I don't engage in the politics of envy and grievance so I don't fault him either way.

Doesn't that mean Gates and Allan started off as millionaires? They stood to inherit millions if their parents died. Where you do draw the line?

It's like saying Keifer Sutherland or Charlie Sheen are self-made. Sure, they earned their own roles and Hollywood standing, but they had a great start and opportunities given their background.

For me self-made is generally someone like the Dominos guy or Mark Cuban. Middle Class or lower and earned billionaire status.

[Aseahawkfan]

Precisely.

He earned his billions before he inherited his father's estate. Where does that count?

[burrrton]

He earned his billions before he inherited his father's estate. Where does that count?

He started off as a millionaire. I'm not sure where the cutoff is, but I don't think that comes in under the line.

[RiverDog]

He earned his billions before he inherited his father's estate. Where does that count?

I suppose there's a spectrum with JFK at one end that did nothing to earn his fortune and guys like Howard Schultz and Steve Jobs at the other end that started out dirt poor.

I don't want to feed the discussion on this aspect of DJT's fortune as it's not the central point I was trying to make, and as such, this will be the last time I comment on it.

[idhawkman]

Yes. It doesn't take much to be considered a millionaire. You can make as little as $80K a year with no inheritance and have well over $1M in net worth. But I get your point, ie that Bill Gates Sr., although not a billionaire, is probably in the top 10% of income earners and provided a superior environment for his son to develop the skills he used to build his business. But it's comparing apples and oranges to say that Gates acquired his wealth in anywhere near the same manner that Trump did.

Another ignorant statement. Do you not know the story of Gates? He dropped out of college but he leveraged a college kid's code for DOS at a picnic/bar-b-que with rich IBM folks. Gates became a Billionaire while the kid he paid for the DOS program didn't. He got paid a few hundred bucks. And you think that is so much better than what Trump has done? Give me a break!

[idhawkman]

And regardless, I don't engage in the politics of envy and grievance so I don't fault him either way.

Neither do I, and I apologise for leading the thread off on this tangent. My point was about Trump's behavior as a spoiled rich kid, not how he aquired his wealth.

You might as well become a liberal democrat River, you've got their play book down pat. Refute that you don't engage in envy politics and then you immediately do exactly that.

[idhawkman]

Doesn't that mean Gates and Allan started off as millionaires? They stood to inherit millions if their parents died. Where you do draw the line?

It's like saying Keifer Sutherland or Charlie Sheen are self-made. Sure, they earned their own roles and Hollywood standing, but they had a great start and opportunities given their background.

For me self-made is generally someone like the Dominos guy or Mark Cuban. Middle Class or lower and earned billionaire status.

in a capitalist society, self made is where you add value your product or service that people want to buy on a massive scale. I don't think anyone can argue that Trump didn't add massive value to build his Billions. Its not like he robbed a bank or sold Drugs like El Chapo (although you might argue that El Chapo added value by selling his drugs on the street cheaper or higher quality than anyone else. I'll then argue that he killed his way to a monopoly in the markets he dominated.)

[Hawktawk]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... trump.html

Did I read ID hawkman saying read art of the deal Art of the steal is more like it. Do you realize the author of the book is mortified , totally regrets writing the book and feels its partially his fault Trump is president????

Trump the self made billionaire LMAO. Well I guess its true, just the lengths some people will go to in order to get richer. Im sure hes not the only one but he's the only one who is the POTUS. The fact of the matter is that following his 4 substantial business bankruptcies he is so radioactive the only bank that will lend him lots of money is Deutsche Bank who has been popped hard with billions in fines for laundering Russian money and is currently so far upside down with debt to asset ratio the nation of origin is considering absorbing it as a state run bank to protect the investors.To swerve into the NFL briefly it was Trump's sketchy financial background that has caused the NFL to rebuff his efforts to buy an NFL franchise at least twice which is likely why he has such a chubby for the league.

Trump went from a guy billions of dollars in debt following his multiple casino failures, airline co etc to paying cash for most of his deals nowadays including dumping hundreds of millions into his numerous golf properties which many are hemorrhaging cash by the millions.As a guy who spent 33 years in golf and lived through 2 bankruptcies and continual financial struggles at all 4 facilities I managed the turf on I can attest to the state of the industry. Where is all that cash coming from? Don Jr was asked by a writer from a golf course publication in 2012 how the Trump organization could keep pushing ahead with building, buying and remodeling so many top end courses in a down economy for high end golf.

Don Jr said "we have a lot of money coming in from Russia". Of course now he flatly denies he ever said that,
as though a golf writer in 2012 was the one who started the whole take down this great man with "fake news" trend


DJT said of the Mueller investigation that investigating his families finances was a "red line" and despite media reports to the contrary Deutsche Bank has denied they have received subpoenas from Mueller for his banking records etc. Head of the congressional intelligence and judiciary committee Adam Schiff has echoed that same concern regarding the mueller investigations reluctance to look at the finances and has called for money laundering investigations in the house.

Michael Cohen will testify in open congressional hearings next week to the criminal aspects of the Trump organization including tax fraud, insurance fraud etc. according to reports, also fill in the blanks of the campaign finance violations he pled out to that named ""individual one" as a co conspirator, actually as the man who "directed" the crimes. Trump supporter Chris Christie said the other day that while the mueller investigation bears watching its the SDNY prosecutors who are the greatest threat to the trump organization and presidency. Getcha popcorn.

And as an aside regarding the estate tax I agree with the position that it is a criminal double taxation of someone's life work and legacy to redistribute it to the government and I'm totally opposed, just like I am to people who break multiple laws to amass their wealth.

[idhawkman]

I stopped reading after your first paragraph since you don't even know that Trump himself wrote "Art of the Deal". Wow, I can't believe you actually wrote that the author was embarrassed and responsible for Trump being president. I guess the second part of that is true but I highly doubt Trump is sorry he wrote it.

[Aseahawkfan]

in a capitalist society, self made is where you add value your product or service that people want to buy on a massive scale. I don't think anyone can argue that Trump didn't add massive value to build his Billions. Its not like he robbed a bank or sold Drugs like El Chapo (although you might argue that El Chapo added value by selling his drugs on the street cheaper or higher quality than anyone else. I'll then argue that he killed his way to a monopoly in the markets he dominated.)

I generally look at self-made as coming from the middle class or lower. It's mostly irrelevant. All these folks did incredible jobs building up their businesses.

[RiverDog]

in a capitalist society, self made is where you add value your product or service that people want to buy on a massive scale. I don't think anyone can argue that Trump didn't add massive value to build his Billions. Its not like he robbed a bank or sold Drugs like El Chapo (although you might argue that El Chapo added value by selling his drugs on the street cheaper or higher quality than anyone else. I'll then argue that he killed his way to a monopoly in the markets he dominated.)

I generally look at self-made as coming from the middle class or lower. It's mostly irrelevant. All these folks did incredible jobs building up their businesses.

I agree with ASF. Self made is, in part, defined by a very low starting point, and it's impossible to be considered "self made" if you're a millionaire by the time you're 8 years old.

[Hawktawk]

I stopped reading after your first paragraph since you don't even know that Trump himself wrote "Art of the Deal". Wow, I can't believe you actually wrote that the author was embarrassed and responsible for Trump being president. I guess the second part of that is true but I highly doubt Trump is sorry he wrote it.

You are truly laughable making a statement like that. If you read trumps misspelled disjointed tweets it should be apparent he cant F#cking spell or write anything coherent even keeping it to a few characters, much less a book. It's called a GHOSTWRITER and there indeed was one. Google it if you know how DUDE
Never mind did it for you.https://www.salon.com/2017/08/18/tony-s ... -resign/he was wrong about Trump resigning but his attitude about the man he helped elect is pretty clear.

But why resign when you've got 30 something percent of the population that thinks like iD Hawkman and you can do any GD thing you want and they will still support you???

[RiverDog]

I stopped reading after your first paragraph since you don't even know that Trump himself wrote "Art of the Deal". Wow, I can't believe you actually wrote that the author was embarrassed and responsible for Trump being president. I guess the second part of that is true but I highly doubt Trump is sorry he wrote it.

You are truly laughable making a statement like that. If you read trumps misspelled disjointed tweets it should be apparent he cant F#cking spell or write anything coherent even keeping it to a few characters, much less a book. It's called a GHOSTWRITER and there indeed was one. Google it if you know how DUDE
Never mind did it for you.https://www.salon.com/2017/08/18/tony-s ... -resign/he was wrong about Trump resigning but his attitude about the man he helped elect is pretty clear.

But why resign when you've got 30 something percent of the population that thinks like iD Hawkman and you can do any GD thing you want and they will still support you???

Hawktalk, I love ya, man, but if my old man were alive and had read your post, he'd give you the following advice: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

"Trump" needs to be capitalized, you capitalized "f#cking" when you shouldn't have, you didn't put an apostrophe in "can't", and your link is broken because you incorporated the word "he" in it.

[Hawktawk]

Hawktalk, I love ya, man, but if my old man were alive and had read your post, he'd give you the following advice: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

"Trump" needs to be capitalized, you capitalized "f#cking" when you shouldn't have, you didn't put an apostrophe in "can't", and your link is broken because you incorporated the word "he" in it.

Well fair enough RD I disagree on one thing. The F did need to be capitalized. the word needed to be just spelled out in all caps but it's a family forum. I usually check the link too but its still hilarious ID was unaware that a ghostwriter was the one actually wrote art of the steal, is a democrat and can't stand the prick he helped make who he is today.

I did win numerous spelling bees as a young man in school so maybe I need to brush up a bit but I'd challenge Trump anyday.

[RiverDog]

Hawktalk, I love ya, man, but if my old man were alive and had read your post, he'd give you the following advice: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.

"Trump" needs to be capitalized, you capitalized "f#cking" when you shouldn't have, you didn't put an apostrophe in "can't", and your link is broken because you incorporated the word "he" in it.

Well fair enough RD I disagree on one thing. The F did need to be capitalized. the word needed to be just spelled out in all caps but it's a family forum. I usually check the link too but its still hilarious ID was unaware that a ghostwriter was the one actually wrote art of the steal, is a democrat and can't stand the prick he helped make who he is today.

I did win numerous spelling bees as a young man in school so maybe I need to brush up a bit but I'd challenge Trump anyday.

Glad you have a sense of humor. My spelling isn't all that great and I take full advantage of spell check so I wasn't about to compare yours to mine.

I'm not sure that Trump is stupid as you say he is. IMO it's more about him being lazy and doesn't feel like he should have to prepare for anything.