Trump's Re-Election

[Aseahawkfan]

Next election should be real interesting. I have no idea who has enough of a following and charisma to take out Trump. We won't know for sure until it all starts and we see how the game gets played. We'll see how effective the attacks on Trump have been come election time. I still think attacking Trump in the fashion the Dems are attacking him is riling up his base and making the Dems look as though they are the corrupt ones using governmental power to continually attack a sitting president because they have no other way to take office. Just makes the Dems look weak, corrupt, petty, and pathetic. All I know for certain is it will likely be another election I mostly ignore. These two parties are at a point where I can't vote for them. This left seems more concerned with getting high, taking our guns away, having a high tax system with "free" services, and scumbag behavior accepted as long as it's not by rich, famous people where everyone can pile on acting offended. The right seems caught up in hating immigrants, not giving a rat's ass about the environment, and promoting big business. Both parties seem ok with our scumbag foreign policy. Nowhere to go if you want a truly better America that cleaves closer to its Constitutional values.

[Hawktawk]

I've seen lots of polls in here on how Trump can't win because he is consistently low in approval rating. I saw a poll the other day on tv that showed him now at 53%. What's even more interesting is that wall street (Goldman Sachs) is predicting he'll be reelected. Its like Ground hog day and the shadow was seen so 6 more years of Trump... Yay!!!

Also saw where last quarter that White unemployment improved .88%, hispanic unemployment improved 1.42% and black unemployment improved almost 2.5%. All the dems are saying that this economy has left those groups behind and they are not benefitting though. At some point, people see through the lies and recognize what is actually happening. Just like the "There's no caravans", er, eh, "well there's no crisis", er, eh, "Well it is a humanitarian crisis only", er, eh, "Well Trump caused the crisis" stance they've taken on the immigration issue. They'll be singing another tun on the economy in just a few months.

No inflation, no recession and strong growing economic numbers as far as the eye can see. Get ready for another 4 years.

You realize Trumps cabinet is still full of Goldman Sachs executives including Steve Mnunchin Might disregard that poll OK? Sorry, he doesn't get to run against Hillary again and the 55% normal rational people some of whom voted for him have had over 2 years to see him in action.Another 2 ought to more than do it as far as convincing them anyone else would be better than another 4 years of chaos.

Ill credit Trump with some good hires. If you want the ponzi scheme known as wall street to prop you up hire a bunch of wall street insiders.Especially if they are also going to commission a poll saying you're going to win, the only such poll that currently exists.

[idhawkman]

You realize Trumps cabinet is still full of Goldman Sachs executives including Steve Mnunchin Might disregard that poll OK? Sorry, he doesn't get to run against Hillary again and the 55% normal rational people some of whom voted for him have had over 2 years to see him in action.Another 2 ought to more than do it as far as convincing them anyone else would be better than another 4 years of chaos.

Ill credit Trump with some good hires. If you want the ponzi scheme known as wall street to prop you up hire a bunch of wall street insiders.Especially if they are also going to commission a poll saying you're going to win, the only such poll that currently exists.

Good try but the Goldman Sachs stating that they think Trump will win is not a poll. That is a company responsible for making money for other people. Just like Vegas when it comes to betting on games, people may hate the Patriots but they put their money on the team they truly think will win. Or are you suggesting that Goldman Sachs is telling their investors that they think Trump will win so that their investors will put money in those stocks that favor a second term for Trump just to have it all crumble down and they lose their money. That's not going to happen but good try trying to spin this into a "home boy" play.

[RiverDog]

This left seems more concerned with getting high, taking our guns away, having a high tax system with "free" services, and scumbag behavior accepted as long as it's not by rich, famous people where everyone can pile on acting offended. The right seems caught up in hating immigrants, not giving a rat's ass about the environment, and promoting big business.

Yea, I always laugh at the left and all their free chit ideas like Medicare for all or the Green New Deal. Anytime you ask them how they're going to pay for it they'll just say "tax the rich" as if we have a nation full of billionaires like Gates and Bezos whose bank accounts we can simply tap into.

As far as the environment goes, I get disturbed when they talk about green energy but don't include nuclear or hydro in their solutions. They talk about breaching the dams on the lower Snake not realizing that salmon runs on the dam less Fraser River in BC are also experiencing lower runs, nor do they account for the thousands of the smoke belching diesel trucks that would be required to move grain down to Portland. I'm all for improving the environment, but the left keeps tossing in ad-ons, like the plastic grocery bag ban proposal that I was all for until I learned that they were going to tax paper sacks.

The right is so scared and preoccupied with immigrants it's borderline silly. We now have more job openings than we have unemployed, and it's not even close, like by a million jobs, so there is no economic argument that supports a tight immigration policy. And with our lower birth rate, schools are having to lay off teachers and close schools, so there isn't an infrastructure problem, yet Trump has the right convinced that "we're full" and that they're nothing but a bunch of drug running thugs even though immigrants have a lower crime rate than native born. The right is disguising the fact that they simply don't want people that don't look or talk like themselves coming into the country. It has nothing to do with the economy or crime.

[idhawkman]

Yea, I always laugh at the left and all their free chit ideas like Medicare for all or the Green New Deal. Anytime you ask them how they're going to pay for it they'll just say "tax the rich" as if we have a nation full of billionaires like Gates and Bezos whose bank accounts we can simply tap into.

Great points. I also enjoy how they say that Bezos has xxxx Billion dollars. What's rich about that is most of it is in stocks of the company he created. "IF" he ever started selling big chunks of that stock, he'd see his stock price drop like a rock. So they really don't "HAVE" that much money and especially none that can be "TAKEN" through a tax. Its just the ignorance of the left to think there's actual money (e.g. Billions of Dollars) sitting in those Billionaire's bank accounts just waiting to be liberated.

As far as the environment goes, I get disturbed when they talk about green energy but don't include nuclear or hydro in their solutions. They talk about breaching the dams on the lower Snake not realizing that salmon runs on the dam less Fraser River in BC are also experiencing lower runs, nor do they account for the thousands of the smoke belching diesel trucks that would be required to move grain down to Portland. I'm all for improving the environment, but the left keeps tossing in ad-ons, like the plastic grocery bag ban proposal that I was all for until I learned that they were going to tax paper sacks.

Everytime I see one of their hair brained ideas I have to ask myself how it fits into their "you got it, I want it" goal.

The right is so scared and preoccupied with immigrants it's borderline silly. We now have more job openings than we have unemployed, and it's not even close, like by a million jobs, so there is no economic argument that supports a tight immigration policy.

The problem is, that the illegals we have coming are not capable of most of the jobs that are available. Sure, they can do your lawn work or serve you food at the drive through but most are not educated to take on the other jobs we need. Now I know people will argue that some of them could be doctors or other educated people but the problem with being illegal is that we don't know it, they don't get certified because of it and therefore they are relegated to doing the lawn work and fast food services. It is critical we do proper "legal" immigration so we can set quotas to properly address the needs of the country. We don't need 20 million low wage illegal immigrants and no high educated immigrants. We need a mix and without going through the proper procedures, we won't get what we need and will thus be burdened by the "extra" of any one group or class.

Now with that said, we need to seriously overhaul the immigration policy of the U.S. Its ridiculous how long it takes and how much money it costs to properly immigrate to the U.S. This MUST come from congress though. We NEED congress to start fixing the issue and quit using it as an election issue.

And with our lower birth rate, schools are having to lay off teachers and close schools, so there isn't an infrastructure problem, yet Trump has the right convinced that "we're full" and that they're nothing but a bunch of drug running thugs even though immigrants have a lower crime rate than native born. The right is disguising the fact that they simply don't want people that don't look or talk like themselves coming into the country. It has nothing to do with the economy or crime.

I'd agree in some areas the schools are down because of lower birth rates but not all areas. Those areas that attract the illegal aliens are over flowing. Teachers don't want to go to those schools though for a number of reason to include culture differences, language barriers, violence and commute.

The argument about people not looking or talking like the right is ridiculous on its face. The right has all races, creeds and colors so what is NOT like the right?

[RiverDog]

The problem is, that the illegals we have coming are not capable of most of the jobs that are available.

I'm not talking about illegals. My issue has never been with preventing illegals from entering the country. Trump wants to cut ALL immigration, and he quite simply has not made his case.

There are lots of jobs available, entry level and skilled, more than employers can fill:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... b64974316b

Additionally, with the age demographics shifting, the work force and the country is getting older, meaning there aren't enough healthy young people that don't tax the health care system. We should be encouraging young, able bodied, law abiding, and educated people (or at least with the capacity to learn) to come to the country. Otherwise, SS, Medicare, and other forms of health insurance are going to continue to have an increasingly worse contributor/beneficiary ratio.

And with our lower birth rate, schools are having to lay off teachers and close schools, so there isn't an infrastructure problem, yet Trump has the right convinced that "we're full" and that they're nothing but a bunch of drug running thugs even though immigrants have a lower crime rate than native born. The right is disguising the fact that they simply don't want people that don't look or talk like themselves coming into the country. It has nothing to do with the economy or crime.

I'd agree in some areas the schools are down because of lower birth rates but not all areas. Those areas that attract the illegal aliens are over flowing. Teachers don't want to go to those schools though for a number of reason to include culture differences, language barriers, violence and commute.

Again, the discussion isn't about illegal immigration. It's Trump's claim that the country is "full", and we clearly are not. I can accept, indeed, would advocate emphasizing certain age groups, 18-35, while restricting the numbers of others, 45+, so as not to tax our health care/insurance system.

The argument about people not looking or talking like the right is ridiculous on its face. The right has all races, creeds and colors so what is NOT like the right?

Then your side needs to start presenting some FACTUAL information about LEGAL immigration instead of repeating over and over this constant drone of illegal immigration destroying the country via, crime, drugs, etc. Trump has not made his case for reducing LEGAL immigration. If there is no case to be made, then there must be some other underlying reason for wanting to reduce it, which quite naturally increases a person's suspicions.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yea, I always laugh at the left and all their free chit ideas like Medicare for all or the Green New Deal. Anytime you ask them how they're going to pay for it they'll just say "tax the rich" as if we have a nation full of billionaires like Gates and Bezos whose bank accounts we can simply tap into.

Left has convinced America that wealth is a zero sum game where there's this certain amount of wealth that somehow the rich have taken for themselves from everyone else. You can see how the left discusses wealth they believe it. They never stop and go but "What is wealth and where does it come from?" They don't get that the 99% of wealth with certain Americans is created wealth that did not exist before and mostly tied up in the value of owned assets like multinational corporations which there is no way to share equally with the masses unlesses we become truly socialist. And true socialism would lead to the destruction of all that wealth as it has done in every single nation it has ever been tried in, which caused those nations to go back to capitalist incentives to boost their economic growth. Because our nation lacks a solid economic education, simplified scare tactic economics like "wealth inequality" or "government trying to take your money" talk wins out in the simple argument rather than a discussion of wealth, taxes, and how it all works.

As far as the environment goes, I get disturbed when they talk about green energy but don't include nuclear or hydro in their solutions. They talk about breaching the dams on the lower Snake not realizing that salmon runs on the dam less Fraser River in BC are also experiencing lower runs, nor do they account for the thousands of the smoke belching diesel trucks that would be required to move grain down to Portland. I'm all for improving the environment, but the left keeps tossing in ad-ons, like the plastic grocery bag ban proposal that I was all for until I learned that they were going to tax paper sacks.

Left making a lot of money off alternative energy. Nuclear has dangers that turn off voters. Nuclear can be good, but when nuclear has problems it's very serious and the waste material from nuclear is dangerous for a long, long time. Though we are finding a higher level of waste in solar and wind as well with the materials we have to use to construct energy capture devices.

The right is so scared and preoccupied with immigrants it's borderline silly. We now have more job openings than we have unemployed, and it's not even close, like by a million jobs, so there is no economic argument that supports a tight immigration policy. And with our lower birth rate, schools are having to lay off teachers and close schools, so there isn't an infrastructure problem, yet Trump has the right convinced that "we're full" and that they're nothing but a bunch of drug running thugs even though immigrants have a lower crime rate than native born. The right is disguising the fact that they simply don't want people that don't look or talk like themselves coming into the country. It has nothing to do with the economy or crime.

Trump did not start it. It's been bubbling for a while. He used it to gain the White House, but the anti-immigrant build up been there for a while for a variety of reasons. I mostly heard it from right leaning libertarians. I used to talk to one guy that saw immigrants as invaders who could be shot as part of a just war to protect the nation. Then there were the concerns by folks with the H1B visa program which is being used by big tech to globalize the labor pool. The most egregious example of this when the H1B visa program continued unchecked during Obama while big tech claimed there was no one to hire when our unemployment rate hit insane levels. It was total horsecrap and you knew the tech execs meant no one to hire for the price they were looking to pay. And then you have the border states which were truly experiencing increases in crime, overload of social services, and lots of messed up changes. My mother fell into this category as she worked in a state hospital in El Paso, TX and saw lots of system abuse by Latin immigrants coming over the border. It really soured her on easy immigration. And my mother is American of Mexican descent, 3rd generation that did not use to believe the way she did until she saw the town she grew up in start to become rampant with crime and problems from immigration. She used to get her hair done in Juarez and go there to eat and buy some cheap clothes or something. Now she can't go to Juarez because it's so dangerous due to immigration and drug cartels flooding the place with people that create a very dangerous, desperate environment. Very big changes from when she was a little girl. And there are the folks that are just racist trash, but they always been there.

Trump convinced the right of nothing, but is tapping into existing anger and frustration with the government's mishandling of real immigration problems that have grown over time to a level that has pushed Americans to anger. I'm not sure where you get your crime statistics, but crime is a huge a problem in areas of high immigration. And they may be pockets that aren't reflected in national statistics given immigrants still make up a tiny percentage of our population. Not sure how they are manipulating statistics to make it seem like it isn't a problem, but in areas with high concentrations of Latin immigrants in recent years crime is a big change that the people in those areas feel very strongly. It's happened not over a few years, but over decades that the government has not bothered to check. It is highly felt by the people growing up in those areas including Latin immigrants that have grown up in these areas over multiple generations.

I have heard from Alaskans that experience similar issues with Russian/Eastern European immigrants in Alaska, where communities with high immigrant populations feel less safe due to criminals moving in with the regular family-oriented immigrants. Make no mistakes, I know the vast majority of immigrants are generally regular folk looking for work and a better life. When you have so many immigrants coming over, even a tiny less than 1% of the folks being criminals is a lot of criminals coming over. Government needs to handle this better as they cause a lot of problems.

Government seems more interested in decriminalizing crime to make themselves look better than taking real action against crime, much like how Seattle and Washington State in general is dealing with the homeless problems. You have a ton of anecdotal evidence from police officers who have arrested the same homeless vagrants for property crimes like shoplifting, begging, and the like multiple times. How do you track this effect if the government is cooking the books to make it look like it wasn't a crime? I trust crime statistics about as much as I trust the government's economic statistics which they constantly manipulate to fit whatever narrative they want to sell.

[RiverDog]

The right is so scared and preoccupied with immigrants it's borderline silly. We now have more job openings than we have unemployed, and it's not even close, like by a million jobs, so there is no economic argument that supports a tight immigration policy. And with our lower birth rate, schools are having to lay off teachers and close schools, so there isn't an infrastructure problem, yet Trump has the right convinced that "we're full" and that they're nothing but a bunch of drug running thugs even though immigrants have a lower crime rate than native born. The right is disguising the fact that they simply don't want people that don't look or talk like themselves coming into the country. It has nothing to do with the economy or crime.

I'm not sure where you get your crime statistics, but crime is a huge a problem in areas of high immigration. And they may be pockets that aren't reflected in national statistics given immigrants still make up a tiny percentage of our population. Not sure how they are manipulating statistics to make it seem like it isn't a problem, but in areas with high concentrations of Latin immigrants in recent years crime is a big change that the people in those areas feel very strongly. It's happened not over a few years, but over decades that the government has not bothered to check. It is highly felt by the people growing up in those areas including Latin immigrants that have grown up in these areas over multiple generations.

It's pretty common knowledge that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born citizens. Here's one article:

Immigrants commit crimes and are incarcerated at a much lower rate than U.S. citizens, according to two separate studies released this week.

https://thehill.com/latino/324607-repor ... n-citizens

Crime rates might be able to be manipulated some, but you're talking about a very large difference shown in multiple studies, so it's pretty unlikely that the basic fact has been altered. Additionally, the incarceration rate is pretty reliable information, unless you want to argue that our justice system treats immigrants softer than native born. However, my understanding is that ILLEGAL immigrants do commit crimes at a higher rate, and that's where the focus should be, not on those that play by Hoyle. The far right is Demonizing all immigrants.

I'm not like those on the left that want to eliminate ICE or provide sanctuaries for those fleeing our justice system, and I am for a strong border enforcement, just not Trump's $25B wall. But Trump and his allies have distracted the discussion away from where it should be, which is how many immigrants can we reasonably take in that will actually help our economy. There is no justification for the types of large cuts of legal immigrants he is proposing. He is using the immigration issue much like the left uses gun violence, as a political weapon to strike fear in the hearts of weak minded individuals that are uncomfortable around anyone that doesn't look and/or talk like they do.

On a more personal note, I've been a line supervisor in food processing plants for 40 years, so I've come in contact with thousands of immigrants. In general, I would much rather have a crew full of immigrants than I would native born. They work harder, complain less, and learn faster than their native counterparts that are more likely to have an entitlement attitude about them. Language barriers, although sometimes a challenge, are for the most part easily overcome so long as both parties want to communicate. As a result, the majority of my friends here locally were not born in this country. But perhaps I'm just seeing the cream of the crop.

[Aseahawkfan]

It's pretty common knowledge that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born citizens. Here's one article:

Immigrants commit crimes and are incarcerated at a much lower rate than U.S. citizens, according to two separate studies released this week.

https://thehill.com/latino/324607-repor ... n-citizens

Crime rates might be able to be manipulated some, but you're talking about a very large difference shown in multiple studies, so it's pretty unlikely that the basic fact has been altered. Additionally, the incarceration rate is pretty reliable information, unless you want to argue that our justice system treats immigrants softer than native born. However, my understanding is that ILLEGAL immigrants do commit crimes at a higher rate, and that's where the focus should be, not on those that play by Hoyle. The far right is Demonizing all immigrants.

Incarceration rate is not reliable in my opinion. I believe they are kicking the criminals loose to avoid overcrowding and the like which is skewing statistics. They are not jailing a lot of homeless. Just kicking them back on the streets. I hope they are at least keeping the violent criminals in, but who knows. Washington State has gone so soft on crime that it makes me sick.

Also recall crime is concentrated. For example, middle America has crime rates as low as anywhere in the world. The majority of American crime is concentrated in cities and especially urban cesspools like Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York. Just like immigrant-related crime is concentrated in areas with high levels of immigration like border towns. It is those areas fueling some of the anti-immigrant stance that has boiled over.

Immigration is also hitting the construction industry harder than it used to. Those blue collar folks getting hit are not happy that someone took their jobs. With the bidding process as it is, union contractors can't outbid companies using non-union and immigrant labor. Saw this a lot watching construction work here and knew more than a few contractors that left California due to the problem. From what I recall, construction used to be a good paying job not highly impacted by immigrant labor.

Though I do agree that legal immigrants are more likely to steer clear of crime. The stories of how hard it is to get here are clear reasons why. You work that hard to get to a country, you don't want to do anything to mess it up. Some of the Afghan guys I work with tell horror stories of how long it took to get here and how much they risked. They do not want to mess anything up.

I see the immigration issue as another issue improperly addressed by the government and smarmy left that working Americans are experiencing the effects of on a daily basis that was building up Trump tapped into and used to build up his base. How immigration is handled is going to be very important in this next election. People are still experiencing problems associated with immigration.

[RiverDog]

Incarceration rate is not reliable in my opinion. I believe they are kicking the criminals loose to avoid overcrowding and the like which is skewing statistics.

So are they kicking out native born Americans at a higher rate than immigrants? How can the percentage get skewed? The argument isn't whether or not the total incarceration rate is accurate, it's what percentage of those that are incarcerated is comprised of immigrants.

Immigration is also hitting the construction industry harder than it used to. Those blue collar folks getting hit are not happy that someone took their jobs. With the bidding process as it is, union contractors can't outbid companies using non-union and immigrant labor. Saw this a lot watching construction work here and knew more than a few contractors that left California due to the problem. From what I recall, construction used to be a good paying job not highly impacted by immigrant labor.

Sure, there's going to be some people that lose their jobs, including some that may lose them to an immigrant. But the fact is that there is just one industry that has experienced a significant loss of jobs in the past several years: Retail, as stores shift from bricks and mortar to online sales, like Sears succumbing to Amazon, and as big box stores eliminate checkers by using automated "scan and go" check out devices. Manufacturing had a small dip, but my understanding is that there was one large plant (can't remember which one) that closed that contributed to that small bump:

Despite strength in jobs from manufacturing to medicine, retail is one of just two sectors that have lost jobs over the last few years.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/booming ... ehind.html

There is no economic argument that would support restricting immigration except as it relates to age. It's actually a good selling point for Trump as it means at a minimum that he hasn't upset the apple cart. We've never had a positive ratio of job openings to unemployed like we have now. If we were in a major recession and our unemployment was high, then I could understand reducing immigration quotas. But that's clearly not the case.

I see the immigration issue as another issue improperly addressed by the government and smarmy left that working Americans are experiencing the effects of on a daily basis that was building up Trump tapped into and used to build up his base. How immigration is handled is going to be very important in this next election. People are still experiencing problems associated with immigration.

It's a red herring. There are lots bigger problems for us to worry about than immigration....health care, the environment, gun control, etc. But I do agree that it's going to be an issue in the next election. Trump has seen to that.

[Aseahawkfan]

So are they kicking out native born Americans at a higher rate than immigrants? How can the percentage get skewed? The argument isn't whether or not the total incarceration rate is accurate, it's what percentage of those that are incarcerated is comprised of immigrants.

With the immigrants, generally illegal, it's more the organized and general crime that comes with it. A gang like MS 13 makes up less than 1% of Salvadorans coming over, but their criminal acts are so heinous they gain an outsized amount of coverage.

The crime statistics I mean are general in so far as they will manipulate them to suit their narrative. Right will exaggerate them. Left will make them look unimportant. People living in areas of high illegal immigration will feel the effects of unchecked illegal immigration and vote accordingly like my mother and aunt in El Paso. You watch the suburban town you grew up in turn into a cesspool, you don't want to listen to someone telling you statistics telling you crime hasn't increased when your first hand experience is that it has.

Sure, there's going to be some people that lose their jobs, including some that may lose them to an immigrant. But the fact is that there is just one industry that has experienced a significant loss of jobs in the past several years: Retail, as stores shift from bricks and mortar to online sales, like Sears succumbing to Amazon, and as big box stores eliminate checkers by using automated "scan and go" check out devices. Manufacturing had a small dip, but my understanding is that there was one large plant (can't remember which one) that closed that contributed to that small bump:

Despite strength in jobs from manufacturing to medicine, retail is one of just two sectors that have lost jobs over the last few years.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/booming ... ehind.html

There is no economic argument that would support restricting immigration except as it relates to age. It's actually a good selling point for Trump as it means at a minimum that he hasn't upset the apple cart. We've never had a positive ratio of job openings to unemployed like we have now. If we were in a major recession and our unemployment was high, then I could understand reducing immigration quotas. But that's clearly not the case.

There are some good arguments. Downward pressure on wages is one of the major, very good arguments. What happens to wage levels when you open up your market to immigrant labor willing to accept much lower wages for the same work? Answer that question. So yes, there is a very big argument. One that is very real and very much intended. Outsourcing put downward pressure on wages and took jobs. Immigration has a negative effect on wages due to expanding the labor pool which puts downward pressure on wages. Construction industry was hit hard by this effect.

Wave levels are not dropping for no reason. Labor responds to the same supply-demand lines as any other economic asset. If you increase the labor supply through outsourcing and immigration, wages will feel massive downward pressure. It very much is working as intended by business leadership. It's why so much money floods into Democrats as well as Republicans. Democrats would have no power if they didn't support part of the big business agenda.

It's a red herring. There are lots bigger problems for us to worry about than immigration....health care, the environment, gun control, etc. But I do agree that it's going to be an issue in the next election. Trump has seen to that.

It's not a red herring. As long as folks like you are dismissing the experience of many Americans, it will continue to be an issue. Keep on ignoring it, watch how the issue continues to grow, even after Trump is out. It's been mishandled by the government badly. As long as you keep ignoring issues like downward pressure on wages by flooding markets with immigrant labor, criminal cartels using unchecked and soft border policies to build criminal organizations within our borders, high expenditures with social services like border hospitals, and the like, it will continue to be an issue long after Trump is out of office.

You seem to think the sanctuary cities, the state hospitals under pressure, the immigration services that handle all of this, and the massive number of immigrants is no big deal. Yet Trump was elected on it. You seem to think he created the hysteria, when it was there long before. I been listening to immigration rhetoric ramping since Bush Jr. was in office almost 18 years ago. Trump is the culmination of that building rage at the government for unchecked immigration that has been a huge burden on many communities driving folks that lived there for ages out. Somehow you think it will all go away once Trump is out office? I'd bet against that. I'd bet quite a bit against that. Immigration is a huge issue to growing number of Americans.

To put it succinctly, downplay the immigration issues at your own peril. If Trump gets re-elected with immigration as a major issue again, go on thinking Americans are just "stupid" for being concerned. Me, I want some real acknowledgment of the issues like downward wage pressure, social services, and globalization of the labor pool with Americans competing against labor from third world nations. I'll hope that we don't elect someone worse than Trump in the future on the basis of ignoring immigration, outsourcing, and all the other means used to put downward pressure on our standard of living.

[RiverDog]

You seem to think the sanctuary cities, the state hospitals under pressure, the immigration services that handle all of this, and the massive number of immigrants is no big deal. Yet Trump was elected on it. You seem to think he created the hysteria, when it was there long before. I been listening to immigration rhetoric ramping since Bush Jr. was in office almost 18 years ago. Trump is the culmination of that building rage at the government for unchecked immigration that has been a huge burden on many communities driving folks that lived there for ages out. Somehow you think it will all go away once Trump is out office? I'd bet against that. I'd bet quite a bit against that. Immigration is a huge issue to growing number of Americans.

Are you reading everything I've written on this subject? I've specifically said that I don't agree with the sanctuary cities policies. I get a kick out of the left being appalled at county sheriffs in WA refusing to enforce I-1639, the idiotic gun control law that Seattle shoved down the rest of the state's throats, yet when it comes to enforcing the law of the land regarding illegal aliens, they vow to oppose federal law and approve of sanctuary cities.

And unchecked immigration? Not sure how you associated me with that idea. I've advocated stronger border enforcement all along, which means more thorough vetting and dedicating more resources to ports of entry. I oppose Trump's border wall because I don't think it makes economic sense, that there's much cheaper ways to secure the border w/o some huge monstrosity that will take decades to build and does nothing to address security at ports of entry where the vast majority of problems occur. Heck, the majority of illegal aliens come through ports of entry and entered the country legally. They went through the vetting process and are considered illegal because they overstayed their visas. A border wall ain't gonna fix that.

I'm well aware of our historical attitude towards immigration. We've had clearly racist, highly discriminatory laws that were on the books well into the middle of the 21st century, including the Chinese Exclusion Act. We've turned Jews away that were fleeing Hitler's death camps. Italians, Irish, Germans, et al, have all suffered to varying degrees of discrimination rooted in a general anti immigrant sentiment. I perfectly understand that it's nothing new or manufactured by Trump. It doesn't mean that it's acceptable or that we shouldn't call it for what it is.

The immigration process should be controlled and allowed to fluctuate as our economy and infrastructure will allow. Currently, there is an economic need for more younger people, ages 18-35. As that changes, as it inevitably will, so should our immigration quotas.

My statement that we have bigger problems to worry about than immigration is a personal view, not a refusal to recognize the opinions of many, of which many IMO are misguided. I'm more worried about the left taking this country down the path of socialism than I am about immigration.

[idhawkman]

The right is so scared and preoccupied with immigrants it's borderline silly. We now have more job openings than we have unemployed, and it's not even close, like by a million jobs, so there is no economic argument that supports a tight immigration policy. And with our lower birth rate, schools are having to lay off teachers and close schools, so there isn't an infrastructure problem, yet Trump has the right convinced that "we're full" and that they're nothing but a bunch of drug running thugs even though immigrants have a lower crime rate than native born. The right is disguising the fact that they simply don't want people that don't look or talk like themselves coming into the country. It has nothing to do with the economy or crime.

I'm not sure where you get your crime statistics, but crime is a huge a problem in areas of high immigration. And they may be pockets that aren't reflected in national statistics given immigrants still make up a tiny percentage of our population. Not sure how they are manipulating statistics to make it seem like it isn't a problem, but in areas with high concentrations of Latin immigrants in recent years crime is a big change that the people in those areas feel very strongly. It's happened not over a few years, but over decades that the government has not bothered to check. It is highly felt by the people growing up in those areas including Latin immigrants that have grown up in these areas over multiple generations.

It's pretty common knowledge that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born citizens. Here's one article:

Immigrants commit crimes and are incarcerated at a much lower rate than U.S. citizens, according to two separate studies released this week.

https://thehill.com/latino/324607-repor ... n-citizens

Crime rates might be able to be manipulated some, but you're talking about a very large difference shown in multiple studies, so it's pretty unlikely that the basic fact has been altered. Additionally, the incarceration rate is pretty reliable information, unless you want to argue that our justice system treats immigrants softer than native born. However, my understanding is that ILLEGAL immigrants do commit crimes at a higher rate, and that's where the focus should be, not on those that play by Hoyle. The far right is Demonizing all immigrants.

I'm not like those on the left that want to eliminate ICE or provide sanctuaries for those fleeing our justice system, and I am for a strong border enforcement, just not Trump's $25B wall. But Trump and his allies have distracted the discussion away from where it should be, which is how many immigrants can we reasonably take in that will actually help our economy. There is no justification for the types of large cuts of legal immigrants he is proposing. He is using the immigration issue much like the left uses gun violence, as a political weapon to strike fear in the hearts of weak minded individuals that are uncomfortable around anyone that doesn't look and/or talk like they do.

On a more personal note, I've been a line supervisor in food processing plants for 40 years, so I've come in contact with thousands of immigrants. In general, I would much rather have a crew full of immigrants than I would native born. They work harder, complain less, and learn faster than their native counterparts that are more likely to have an entitlement attitude about them. Language barriers, although sometimes a challenge, are for the most part easily overcome so long as both parties want to communicate. As a result, the majority of my friends here locally were not born in this country. But perhaps I'm just seeing the cream of the crop.

FYI - your article is old. They just released the numbers yesterday which shows that 38% of people in custody by the Sheriff's departments are illegals. I don't recall the exact number in federal prison but it was in the 20%+ area. So yeah, the numbers who are committing the crimes in the old data is just that, old.

[idhawkman]

In case anyone is wondering just how bad the situation is, here's the video (which most won't watch) announcing the numbers that were released just yesterday.
I've forwarded it to the spot where it starts the discussion about the new DOJ numbers so that if anyone does click through, they don't have to watch the first couple of segments.
https://youtu.be/-RljPnt2qUI?t=1667

The percentages and estimated costs every year can be found here:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/04/new_doj_report_60000_criminal_illegal_aliens_are_in_federal_custody_at_a_staggering_cost.html

[Aseahawkfan]

Are you reading everything I've written on this subject? I've specifically said that I don't agree with the sanctuary cities policies. I get a kick out of the left being appalled at county sheriffs in WA refusing to enforce I-1639, the idiotic gun control law that Seattle shoved down the rest of the state's throats, yet when it comes to enforcing the law of the land regarding illegal aliens, they vow to oppose federal law and approve of sanctuary cities.

And unchecked immigration? Not sure how you associated me with that idea. I've advocated stronger border enforcement all along, which means more thorough vetting and dedicating more resources to ports of entry. I oppose Trump's border wall because I don't think it makes economic sense, that there's much cheaper ways to secure the border w/o some huge monstrosity that will take decades to build and does nothing to address security at ports of entry where the vast majority of problems occur. Heck, the majority of illegal aliens come through ports of entry and entered the country legally. They went through the vetting process and are considered illegal because they overstayed their visas. A border wall ain't gonna fix that.

I'm well aware of our historical attitude towards immigration. We've had clearly racist, highly discriminatory laws that were on the books well into the middle of the 21st century, including the Chinese Exclusion Act. We've turned Jews away that were fleeing Hitler's death camps. Italians, Irish, Germans, et al, have all suffered to varying degrees of discrimination rooted in a general anti immigrant sentiment. I perfectly understand that it's nothing new or manufactured by Trump. It doesn't mean that it's acceptable or that we shouldn't call it for what it is.

The immigration process should be controlled and allowed to fluctuate as our economy and infrastructure will allow. Currently, there is an economic need for more younger people, ages 18-35. As that changes, as it inevitably will, so should our immigration quotas.

My statement that we have bigger problems to worry about than immigration is a personal view, not a refusal to recognize the opinions of many, of which many IMO are misguided. I'm more worried about the left taking this country down the path of socialism than I am about immigration.

I don't feel like arguing over this subject too much. You called it a red herring and attributed it to Trump. Trump in no way started the immigration backlash that helped him get elected. He tapped into it. It's been simmering for over a decade or two. You're being dismissive of it like so many presidents, politicians, and smarmy commentators in the past.

There are very real problems with the current level of immigration. We've literally absorbed a small country or state worth of illegal immigrants. What is the estimate? 12 million, some say higher. That doesn't include all the legal immigrants. You can't keep doing that and expect everything to be hunky dory.

One of the things I hate the most about this is the attack on Mexicans. My grandfather and grandmother on my mother's side are Mexican ancestry, 2nd generation Americans. My grandfather fought in WW 2. He watched his friends die. He worked hard all his life, multiple jobs to raise a family here. My grandmother also worked hard. They were good folks. Their families came over legally, learned English, and adapted to the culture. They chose to raise a family in El Paso TX. Now the place is overrun with illegals coming to obtain social benefits because of how our social system is structured. They don't like it. It's shameful. Folks like you seem to be saying, "It's not a problem. It's not really happening. You're imagining it." Whereas Trump is saying I believe you. I see what is happening. I want to fix it. You wonder why he is getting votes based on immigration?

I don't enjoy the attacks. I hope future candidates take into account immigration issues in a healthier manner than Trump and the press. They seem to be using each other to incite the issue. Trump for making off the cuff remarks. The press for taking his remarks out of contest and magnifying them into this negative narrative that anyone who wants some immigration enforcement is a racist.

Immigration issues are very real. One of those issues economically is high levels of immigration are part of the multi-pronged approach by big business to put downward pressure on American wages and standard of living. It's not the only one, but it is part of it by expanding the labor pool providing them more workers to compete for wages. Immigration also comes with a lot of problems when it is just folks crossing the border with weak enforcement. You don't end up with 12 million unauthorized immigrants if your nation is doing any kind of quality job enforcing immigration. This anger has been building up for years, not just because Trump took office. I hope politicians are not as dismissive as you seem to be with immigration issues.

And I'm done with this subject. Just another tiresome subject not being addressed properly as the left and right play their pathetic games.

[RiverDog]

I don't feel like arguing over this subject too much. You called it a red herring and attributed it to Trump. Trump in no way started the immigration backlash that helped him get elected. He tapped into it. It's been simmering for over a decade or two. You're being dismissive of it like so many presidents, politicians, and smarmy commentators in the past.

I never attributed the entire issue to Trump. He's intentionally elevated the issue because he sees it as a political weapon. Depending on the situation or where a person lives/works, immigration might be an issue to some segments of our population. But our government turning to socialism will effect everybody, and just about everybody will have an opinion. That's why I claim that the immigration issue ranks down the ladder a few pegs.

There are very real problems with the current level of immigration. We've literally absorbed a small country or state worth of illegal immigrants. What is the estimate? 12 million, some say higher. That doesn't include all the legal immigrants. You can't keep doing that and expect everything to be hunky dory.

Once again, you are overlooking or ignoring my comments. With the exception of the wall, I am very firmly in the conservative camp when it comes to ILLEGAL immigration. And keep in mind that most of the illegals are a result of people overstaying visas, which if our vetting procedures are good, should not pose a significant criminal threat as it's proven that legal immigrants are less likely to commit a crime than native born.

Now the place is overrun with illegals coming to obtain social benefits because of how our social system is structured. They don't like it. It's shameful. Folks like you seem to be saying, "It's not a problem. It's not really happening. You're imagining it." Whereas Trump is saying I believe you. I see what is happening. I want to fix it. You wonder why he is getting votes based on immigration?

If illegals can obtain SSI or other benefits, then we have a huge problem as it means the entire system is flawed. If an illegal can obtain benefits, what's stopping someone else that's not eligible from getting them? Fix the root cause. Besides, it doesn't really make sense for them to attempt to get benefits as doing so could alert authorities to their being here illegally. If I'm here illegally, I'd lay as low as I could to avoid detection.

I don't enjoy the attacks. I hope future candidates take into account immigration issues in a healthier manner than Trump and the press. They seem to be using each other to incite the issue. Trump for making off the cuff remarks. The press for taking his remarks out of contest and magnifying them into this negative narrative that anyone who wants some immigration enforcement is a racist.

Trump does not know how to make a rational argument. He doesn't do his homework or base his comments on facts. He's made so many misstatements of fact that he's not believable on the subject. He does stuff like invite the victim of a crime committed by an illegal to the White House to inflame emotions. It's no different than the left manipulating victims of gun violence to make it sound like its a huge epidemic. If someone is to sway my opinion, they need to use reason and logic backed up by evidence. He has not made his case on LEGAL immigration, at least not in my eyes.

Immigration issues are very real. One of those issues economically is high levels of immigration are part of the multi-pronged approach by big business to put downward pressure on American wages and standard of living.

Do you have any facts to support that opinion?

And I'm done with this subject. Just another tiresome subject not being addressed properly as the left and right play their pathetic games.

Fine by me. I've cut back on my interactions in this forum and only engaged you with the thought that you might have some comments/information worth my consideration.

[Hawktawk]

I heard Bill Weld speaking the other day. Weird to hear what a principled classy fiscal conservative republican sounds like. Its been a while. Hopefully he will get some traction. The Mueller report should help

While 89 % of the republican party support Trump almost 30% are somewhat open to a primary challenge. And as a self described Libertarian running on the republican ticket as a matter of political expediency and someone who won the governorship twice in a blue/purple state Welds sensible approach might well appeal to never trump former republicans as well as moderate to conservative social democrats who cant stand the left fringe of that party as well. Its along time to 2020 but I don't see the ass clown picking up any steam in the meantime.

[RiverDog]

I heard Bill Weld speaking the other day. Weird to hear what a principled classy fiscal conservative republican sounds like. Its been a while. Hopefully he will get some traction. The Mueller report should help

While 89 % of the republican party support Trump almost 30% are somewhat open to a primary challenge. And as a self described Libertarian running on the republican ticket as a matter of political expediency and someone who won the governorship twice in a blue/purple state Welds sensible approach might well appeal to never trump former republicans as well as moderate to conservative social democrats who cant stand the left fringe of that party as well. Its along time to 2020 but I don't see the ass clown picking up any steam in the meantime.

I'd vote for Weld in a heartbeat, but I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of knocking off Trump for the nomination. But I've been wrong before.

[Hawktawk]

I'd vote for Weld in a heartbeat, but I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of knocking off Trump for the nomination. But I've been wrong before.

You're probably right about Weld but then again there has never been a time like this in presidential politics. The fact so many republicans *support* Trump but are open for a primary challenge in a pretty decent if slowing economy, many campaign promises kept or at least attempted is highly unusual.Matter of fact Trump is the first president in forever not to crack 50% in any average of polls in his entire first 2+ years.

And of course this morning hes tweeting madly from Mara Lago blasting the report that supposedly cleared him and calling sworn testimony by his own inner circle "bullshit".

I think the American people are by and large smart enough to understand this report doesn't clear this president and if nothing else it is very damaging politically as it comes from a respected public figure, not the "fake news".They are smart enough to see Barr is another formerly respected man who has become a clown, a partisan hack.

Add to that the dissatisfaction among lots of democrats with the radical liberal positions taken by the left of their party and there is room to move and possible pick up dissafected democrats who switched from Obama to Trump last cycle.

Lets see how the chips fall. If Trump allows Weld on a debate stage he will mop the floor with him and that might change minds further. If he doesn't Weld needs to just make the rounds on the Television channels including Fox.

One can hope cause its time to drain the real swamp and i don't want it filled back up with Bernie sanders or something of the sort.

[idhawkman]

I'd vote for Weld in a heartbeat, but I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of knocking off Trump for the nomination. But I've been wrong before.

You're probably right about Weld but then again there has never been a time like this in presidential politics. The fact so many republicans *support* Trump but are open for a primary challenge in a pretty decent if slowing economy, many campaign promises kept or at least attempted is highly unusual.Matter of fact Trump is the first president in forever not to crack 50% in any average of polls in his entire first 2+ years.

And of course this morning hes tweeting madly from Mara Lago blasting the report that supposedly cleared him and calling sworn testimony by his own inner circle "bullshit".

I think the American people are by and large smart enough to understand this report doesn't clear this president and if nothing else it is very damaging politically as it comes from a respected public figure, not the "fake news".They are smart enough to see Barr is another formerly respected man who has become a clown, a partisan hack.

Add to that the dissatisfaction among lots of democrats with the radical liberal positions taken by the left of their party and there is room to move and possible pick up dissafected democrats who switched from Obama to Trump last cycle.

Lets see how the chips fall. If Trump allows Weld on a debate stage he will mop the floor with him and that might change minds further. If he doesn't Weld needs to just make the rounds on the Television channels including Fox.

One can hope cause its time to drain the real swamp and i don't want it filled back up with Bernie sanders or something of the sort.

All wishful thinking. There's not a snowball's chance in .... that the RNC will allow a primary challenger to Trump. He can run as an independent though. Maybe him and Schultz will get together.

[Hawktawk]

All wishful thinking. There's not a snowball's chance in .... that the RNC will allow a primary challenger to Trump. He can run as an independent though. Maybe him and Schultz will get together.

UMMMM Hes already running. Hes declared his candidacy as a republican. As he said in the very polished professional logical rational interview hes technically in second in the republican party, something he pointed out that about 16 democrats would take in a heartbeat right now.

Besides if Trump is such hot stuff why are you trumpies so worried about little old Bill Weld that you would try to bernie sanders him?

Ill tell you why. Even totally in the bag Rasmussen only has Trump in the mid 40% range and has his "strong approval" at only 38% despite the fact he inherited 4.7% unemployment and a slowly but steadily growing economy and 7 year bull market which has continued to improve the last 2 years but shows signs of slowing . If that doesn't extend 2 years more hes got no shot whatsoever against anyone. And lifelong republicans like me are dying to have a real sane classy republican with some common sense and sense of decorum to support, probably more than the polls indicate. Time will tell.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnbcA1

Only the delusional can see this report as good for Trump

[Aseahawkfan]

I was at my parents on vacation. I watched some of the trash show known as American politics on T.V. via Fox News. I don't usually watch TV as I don't buy cable or like to watch these dumb news shows. But damn if Trump doesn't look very strong against the contenders the Democrats have rolled out. Dems whole message seems to be "I hate Trump. Vote for me." Sanders is saying some real crazy crap about letting felons including terrorist and child rapists vote. You can't really hide it as he definitely said he believes they should be allowed. Lots of points to attack with this group of Democratic contenders.

Trump already started on Biden naming him "Sleepy Joe" and basically calling him dumb. Joe has so many holes in his background, most caused by his party with the Metoo# movement that Trump will have a field day going toe to toe with Biden.

Sheesh. Looks like a pretty dismal group of political options for voters in 2020 as well. I might have to put up with four more year of this embarrassing BS by Trump versus the left. Man, he really winds them up. He's playing them for total idiots, making fun of them, and generally making the Dems look like such idiots that I don't know where to begin. After the release of the Mueller report with no actionable material, Dems look like impotent fools continuing to reach for any trash to get Trump on. It's like they're all so dumb that they think Trump does his taxes himself or has some team of absolutely loyal mafia tax lawyers that do his bidding. Trump is right when he says Mueller has seen his tax returns. He's been audited multiple times. He doesn't do his taxes himself and probably pays an accounting company or a group of accountants to take care of his books that he barely sees. Probably lets his managers take care of them. Yet the Dems are trying to sell another dumb narrative like Trump is some Mafia Don personally overseeing the laundering of his cash or some other such dumb thing. Do the Dems really think those of that have worked for corporations for years don't know that guys like Trump, Bezos, Gates, Buffett, and the like pay extremely professional accountants and lawyers to handle their accounting and finances. Trump don't sit in some backroom directing some Mafia accountant to "cook the books." He has too much to lose doing something like that even before he became president. It's just dumb.

Dems better find a stronger message and some real issues to sell if they want to beat The Narcissist.

[RiverDog]

...But damn if Trump doesn't look very strong against the contenders the Democrats have rolled out. Dems whole message seems to be "I hate Trump. Vote for me." Sanders is saying some real crazy crap about letting felons including terrorist and child rapists vote. You can't really hide it as he definitely said he believes they should be allowed. Lots of points to attack with this group of Democratic contenders.

Yea, and the Dems oppose things like showing a picture ID at polling places. The only reason they want to expand the voting base like that is that they know those types of people are more likely to vote Democratic.

Trump already started on Biden naming him "Sleepy Joe" and basically calling him dumb. Joe has so many holes in his background, most caused by his party with the Metoo# movement that Trump will have a field day going toe to toe with Biden.

I think you mean "Creepy Joe".

The Chief Pornstar Banger isn't going to sway a single voter to support him vs. Biden by bringing up the "Creepy Joe" stuff. Trump himself has been accused of sexual misconduct by at least 19 women since the 1980's, has been caught on audio bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, bragged to Howard Stern about being able to "get away with stuff like that" when he's walked into women's dressing rooms uninvited and unannounced. It would be best for both of them just to leave those sleeping dogs lay.

Sheesh. Looks like a pretty dismal group of political options for voters in 2020 as well....Dems better find a stronger message and some real issues to sell if they want to beat The Narcissist.

I couldn't agree more. I have yet to see a declared Dem candidate that has separated themselves from the socialist chant that they all seem to be saying. I heard Pocahontas say the other day that she would create a wealth tax, something that is clearly unconstitutional not to mention would be complicated as hell and easy to duck should it ever be implemented, to fund her "Medicare for All" proposal.

Although I'll carefully listen to what their nominee has to say, the only one I've heard speak that I could vote for is Biden, and that's factoring in my extreme dislike for that pile of pig chit that's currently in office. I was hoping that Michael Bloomberg or Howard Schultz would have run as Dems, but the liberal wing of the party controls all the buttons and levers. Unless I hear something different, it looks like I'll be casting another protest vote like I did in 2016.

[burrrton]

The Chief Pornstar Banger isn't going to sway a single voter to support him vs. Biden by bringing up the "Creepy Joe" stuff. Trump himself has been accused of sexual misconduct by at least 19 women since the 1980's, has been caught on audio bragging about grabbing women by the pussy, bragged to Howard Stern about being able to "get away with stuff like that" when he's walked into women's dressing rooms uninvited and unannounced. It would be best for both of them just to leave those sleeping dogs lay.

LOL. Yup- if there's one person in politics that shouldn't touch the "creepy" stuff it's Trump, but he's too stupid to know to lay off it.

I heard Pocahontas say the other day...

It's FAUXcahontas! Don't be Trump botching the dig like that.

...that she would create a wealth tax...

And reparations... and The Green New Deal... and... and...

Their platform is a complete sh*t-show, and it's going to get Trump another 4 years if they can't figure out how to dial it back to "sane".

[Aseahawkfan]

Trump doesn't have to touch "Creepy" himself. The Repub PACs will do it for him. It's just a big chink Biden's armor that will be relentlessly attacked by the Repub political machine. Trump's already been attacked in that way and survived. Can Biden survive in the party that is more concerned with that behavior? I don't know. We shall see.

I had to laugh when Trump called him "Sleepy Joe" and basically said he was stupid. I have never seen a candidate campaign like Trump. It's like he's in a prize fight and smack talking prior to the brawl. Who campaigns like that? It's nutso. Trump doesn't care at all. Never seen it in my life. It does make the campaign entertaining. I wonder if Trump is going to push healthcare this time around and lower drug prices. Seems to be part of his new "Keep America Great" platform. We'll see how that sells.

[I-5]

Trump said these words about abortion less than 24 hours ago. If you actually believe him, I’m worried:

“Your Democrat governor here in Wisconsin, shockingly, stated that he will veto legislation that protects Wisconsin babies born alive. Born alive. The baby is born, the mother meets with the doctor, they take care of the baby, they wrap the baby beautifully, and then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute them. You hear late term, but this is where the baby is born, it’s there, it’s wrapped, that’s it,”

That’s our president’s actual words.

[burrrton]

What's your issue with what he said?

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/4 ... l-advances

[RiverDog]

Trump doesn't have to touch "Creepy" himself. The Repub PACs will do it for him. It's just a big chink Biden's armor that will be relentlessly attacked by the Repub political machine. Trump's already been attacked in that way and survived. Can Biden survive in the party that is more concerned with that behavior? I don't know. We shall see.

The "Creepy Joe" stuff isn't going to change one person's mind that might have voted for Biden and cause them to change their vote to Trump. The only thing that it could do would be to stifle turnout for Biden, and that can happen in the primaries, but once he secures the nomination, the women's groups will come out in support of Biden and encourage their followers to overlook these relatively lame charges. No woman that's offended by Trump's many blatant sexual indiscretions and insensitive, chauvinistic remarks is going to pass up a chance to vote him out of office.

I had to laugh when Trump called him "Sleepy Joe" and basically said he was stupid. I have never seen a candidate campaign like Trump. It's like he's in a prize fight and smack talking prior to the brawl. Who campaigns like that? It's nutso. Trump doesn't care at all. Never seen it in my life. It does make the campaign entertaining. I wonder if Trump is going to push healthcare this time around and lower drug prices. Seems to be part of his new "Keep America Great" platform. We'll see how that sells.

I guess I hadn't heard Trump calling Biden "Sleepy Joe."

I agree with your assessment of Trump's campaign style. He's the shock jock of politics and a microcosm of what our country has become.

[c_hawkbob]

What's your issue with what he said?

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/4 ... l-advances

It's a lie is the problem, and implicit lie. The protections for live birth babies already exists, there is no way the scenario he presents could ever happen under current law, yet he makes it seem as that's exactly what is happening unless they pass this BS slab of excess legislation. it's pure talking points for his idiot army, nothing more. It's Russian Troll level vitriol, designed to further divide and foster hate.

[I-5]

Burrrton, because it’s clearly not true, but he’s obviously saying it to incite his followers. I don’t think even he believes it. Do you believe that actually happens or could happen? It’s completely a lie. If you believe what he’s saying, then I’m REALLY worried.

[burrrton]

I-5, Bob- have you guys heard about New Jersey et al's recent laws?

I honestly can't tell if you guys are being intentionally disingenuous or just haven't kept up on the 'late term abortion' developments of late.

Or maybe I'm missing something in the nuances of this development.

BS slab of excess legislation

Why is it "BS" if, as you imply, it merely reaffirms the protections you say already exist? If it only makes permanent the law already in place, why is it "bullsh*t"?

[I-5]

Burrton, I thought you were the one kidding us. What Trump is describing (‘executing’ a baby after it’s been delivered and wrapped in a blanket) isn’t even an abortion issue. It’s simply capital murder as described in every law of every state, which is why it’s ridiculous to discuss legislation around it. Does anyone think what the president is saying is legal and/or is happening in the US, let alone New Jersey? It’s mind-boggling to think that even one person might believe him. As I said, I don’t think even he actually believes his own words (he can’t possibly be that ignorant), but he obviously is thinking his followers might.

[RiverDog]

Burrton, I thought you were the one kidding us. What Trump is describing (‘executing’ a baby after it’s been delivered and wrapped in a blanket) isn’t even an abortion issue. It’s simply capital murder as described in every law of every state, which is why it’s ridiculous to discuss legislation around it. Does anyone think what the president is saying is legal and/or is happening in the US, let alone New Jersey? It’s mind-boggling to think that even one person might believe him. As I said, I don’t think even he actually believes his own words (he can’t possibly be that ignorant), but he obviously is thinking his followers might.

I'm pretty neutral on abortion/right to life and have avoided jumping in on this portion of the thread, but I do want to address what has been a repeated pattern of Trump's arguments since he became a candidate for POTUS, and that is that he intentionally misstates or exaggerates examples in order to highlight his position on a particular issue, and sometimes, such as in this instance, they are so outlandish or extreme that a grade schooler could tell that there's no truth to them.

My favorite example is when Trump claimed that one of the reasons CA was having so many wildfires was because "bad environmental laws" and liberal pols like Gov. Brown was causing them to divert large quantities of water into the Pacific Ocean and hindering fire fighting efforts even though there isn't a scintilla of evidence that suggests access to water for fighting fires is a problem. There is no defending Trump when he starts pulling crap like that out of his arse.

Trump does very little work educating himself on an issue. He has an over confidence in his ability to grasp a subject and pass judgment on it without having read or listened to any background information or counsel from his advisors. There has been numerous complaints from his staff that he won't read briefing papers when given to him and as a consequence, he goes into these subjects that was never part of his experience as a businessman in the real estate industry completely unprepared so he just "wings it" and winds up making himself look foolish. It's a manifestation of his narcissistic personality that has become a trademark of his style since he took office. The issue that I-5 and Cbob are referring to is just one of many examples of this tendency of his.

[idhawkman]

I was at my parents on vacation. I watched some of the trash show known as American politics on T.V. via Fox News. I don't usually watch TV as I don't buy cable or like to watch these dumb news shows. But damn if Trump doesn't look very strong against the contenders the Democrats have rolled out. Dems whole message seems to be "I hate Trump. Vote for me." Sanders is saying some real crazy crap about letting felons including terrorist and child rapists vote. You can't really hide it as he definitely said he believes they should be allowed. Lots of points to attack with this group of Democratic contenders.

Trump already started on Biden naming him "Sleepy Joe" and basically calling him dumb. Joe has so many holes in his background, most caused by his party with the Metoo# movement that Trump will have a field day going toe to toe with Biden.

I still think that Schultz guy is going to run as he's the only real alternative to Trump. The border will continue to escalate and turn into a rallying cry for Trump's reelection and the dems fighting him for the past 2 years will be seen as them not understanding the issue. The AMERICAN people want to vote FOR something and not against someone. The problem is that the dems are trying to give ice cream to everyone without worrying about paying for it. That may work for 6th grade class president but it doesn't work with adults.

Like Harris saying that she would end "right to work" laws. HA! She's fishing for union dues money right there. Those laws are passed by states where she would have no voice or enforcement and she knows it. She's trying to dupe the union workers in various states but they won't fall for it. She's done, Berny is done with his criminals can vote issue, Bezo is done with his tearing down the wall issue, Pocohantas has been done for a while, Booker is done with his my running mate must be a woman - even women are offended by this, and finally Biden - sleepy Joe, who did nothing wrong to Anita Hill but apologized for it anyways and is shocked she doesn't accept his apology. Yep, Creepy, sleepy Joe is done, too.

Sheesh. Looks like a pretty dismal group of political options for voters in 2020 as well. I might have to put up with four more year of this embarrassing BS by Trump versus the left. Man, he really winds them up. He's playing them for total idiots, making fun of them, and generally making the Dems look like such idiots that I don't know where to begin. After the release of the Mueller report with no actionable material, Dems look like impotent fools continuing to reach for any trash to get Trump on. It's like they're all so dumb that they think Trump does his taxes himself or has some team of absolutely loyal mafia tax lawyers that do his bidding. Trump is right when he says Mueller has seen his tax returns. He's been audited multiple times. He doesn't do his taxes himself and probably pays an accounting company or a group of accountants to take care of his books that he barely sees. Probably lets his managers take care of them. Yet the Dems are trying to sell another dumb narrative like Trump is some Mafia Don personally overseeing the laundering of his cash or some other such dumb thing. Do the Dems really think those of that have worked for corporations for years don't know that guys like Trump, Bezos, Gates, Buffett, and the like pay extremely professional accountants and lawyers to handle their accounting and finances. Trump don't sit in some backroom directing some Mafia accountant to "cook the books." He has too much to lose doing something like that even before he became president. It's just dumb.

Dems better find a stronger message and some real issues to sell if they want to beat The Narcissist.

It is possible that Trump is baiting the dems with his taxes, too. I think Mueller and his team of angry lawyers have seen his taxes and have already told the dems who are seeking them where to look for exploitation. A savvy businessman would have a plan worked out to counter any of this though. E.g. who wrote the clause and submitted it to the tax code for his accountants to take advantage of the loopholes he's taken? They better hope that any deduction that Trump has taken hasn't been championed through by a democrat in the past or even worse, one that is still serving.

[idhawkman]

Although I'll carefully listen to what their nominee has to say, the only one I've heard speak that I could vote for is Biden, and that's factoring in my extreme dislike for that pile of pig chit that's currently in office. I was hoping that Michael Bloomberg or Howard Schultz would have run as Dems, but the liberal wing of the party controls all the buttons and levers. Unless I hear something different, it looks like I'll be casting another protest vote like I did in 2016.

I think there's stuff coming down that Biden won't be able to address when they get to his son's activities in the Ukraine. Biden has bragged that he got a Ukrainian prosecutor fired when they started an investigation into his son in Ukraine. Biden did it by threatening to cut off "USAID" funds from Ukraine. I think the dem opponents of Biden will be given wide birth to destroy him before revelations like this come to light though.

[idhawkman]

Trump said these words about abortion less than 24 hours ago. If you actually believe him, I’m worried:

“Your Democrat governor here in Wisconsin, shockingly, stated that he will veto legislation that protects Wisconsin babies born alive. Born alive. The baby is born, the mother meets with the doctor, they take care of the baby, they wrap the baby beautifully, and then the doctor and the mother determine whether or not they will execute them. You hear late term, but this is where the baby is born, it’s there, it’s wrapped, that’s it,”

That’s our president’s actual words.

You may want to re-read that and see where that statement is a bad thing for Trump. Those words, by the way, is exactly what the Governor of Virginia said on air. Trump was just quoting that Dem Governor and stating what the new dem democrat governor stated he will do. A baby born alive is no longer a "woman's right to choose". It is another Human being that has all the unalienable rights as you or I have.

[idhawkman]

It's a lie is the problem, and implicit lie. The protections for live birth babies already exists, there is no way the scenario he presents could ever happen under current law, yet he makes it seem as that's exactly what is happening unless they pass this BS slab of excess legislation. it's pure talking points for his idiot army, nothing more. It's Russian Troll level vitriol, designed to further divide and foster hate.

Sorry Cbob, this just isn't true. The dem governor of Virginia (a Pediatrician by trade) stated this is exactly what they do in Virginia. Don't see much coverage of this outrage in the papers or on the news though, do you? I wonder where they'd fit it in though when they have to dedicate so much time to Russian Collusion, Obstruction, investigations of financial records, etc.

[idhawkman]

Burrrton, because it’s clearly not true, but he’s obviously saying it to incite his followers. I don’t think even he believes it. Do you believe that actually happens or could happen? It’s completely a lie. If you believe what he’s saying, then I’m REALLY worried.

Wow, I can't believe you also believe this is false. Here's the complete question and answer by Virginia's Governor Ralph Northam where they are trying to model the bill that was passed into law in NY. NOTE SPECIFICALLY the part where he states, the fetus would be delivered, comforted, resuscitate and then a discussion between the mother and doctors would ensue as to whether to keep it. Now Trump was commenting on the same bill being put in front of the Wisconsin Governor and his stated support of such a gruesome act.

https://youtu.be/SkTopSKo1xs

[RiverDog]

Sorry Cbob, this just isn't true. The dem governor of Virginia (a Pediatrician by trade) stated this is exactly what they do in Virginia. Don't see much coverage of this outrage in the papers or on the news though, do you? I wonder where they'd fit it in though when they have to dedicate so much time to Russian Collusion, Obstruction, investigations of financial records, etc.

I had pledged not to respond to your ramblings because you were tempting me say things I might later regret, but I'm going to have to break my self imposed silence on your musings as this last one of yours is so utterly false and misleading that I couldn't resist responding.

That is NOT what they are currently doing in Virginia. What you are referring to is a bill currently in the Virginia Legislature that Governor Northam was commenting on in a radio interview last January. Here's a copy of what he said:

So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that's what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.

Republicans narrowly control the House of Delegates, so the bill is unlikely to pass anytime soon. A subcommittee voted to table the bill in a 5-3 vote Monday.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/virginia-a ... 019-01-30/

There is no comparison between this hypothetical situation that Northam was speculating on and the supposedly current practice that Trump claimed was going on in Wisconsin.

And furthermore, it would really help our online relationship if you would start referencing your claims rather than just winging it and expecting people to believe you.