Mueller report cover up

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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby burrrton » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:15 am

Be honest...are you not one of the people watching Hannity’s rants, and even if you’re not, you know what he’s saying and agree with him?


I've literally never watched Hannity, and the only impression I have of him is he's a dick- I have zero idea "what he's saying", so can't tell you if I agree with him.

And your friend's quote strikes me as pretty accurate, too- I don't think he realizes how damning it is of Trump's detractors, though. If it's spot-on, they could rob him of his 'power' by simply acting like adults and picking their battles more wisely, not crying wolf, and not wetting themselves every time the idiot tweets something.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby RiverDog » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:27 am

burrrton wrote:RD, I get what you're saying, but the simple fact remains that ABC News (and the rest) get many, many times the number of viewers FNC gets. That's the *news* shows. The fact that they also broadcast sitcoms (etc) is irrelevant.


No, it's not. As I said, network news is more traditional and does not offer political commentary and opinion. Granted, networks can influence voters simply by the stories they decide to cover or not cover, but there's a huge difference between how the news is presented on "NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt" and "Hardball" with Chris Mathews. That's why the networks decided to get some skin in the game with cable stations like MSNBC. Network news programs have been on a steady decline for decades due in large part to 24/7 news and commentary provided by cable.

burrrton wrote:Whatever Hannity is ranting about on any given night will be a complete mystery to all but the half million viewers watching him. Whatever is said on ABC News will be known to 10-20x that many, and the same goes for CBS and NBC.

Added together, that's many orders of magnitude more viewers. This isn't a debatable topic.


You're not taking into account the type of audience that Hannity is ranting to vs. the type of audience that wants just the basic news without the rants and arguments. What's the voter turnout in this country, 55-60% of eligible voters or something? Although I don't have any evidence to validate my assumption, I would argue that network news attract a higher percentage of the non voting public while cable caters to those more likely to vote.

Besides, my point isn't the numbers of viewers or listeners as much as it is the variety of opinion and editorials that people are exposed to. If the MSM is as dominant and persuasive as you say it is, then how in the hell have conservatives/R's had the success that they've had over the past 30-35 years since cable, talk radio, et al came into being?
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby burrrton » Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:47 am

If the MSM is as dominant and persuasive as you say it is, then how in the hell have conservatives/R's had the success that they've had over the past 30-35 years since cable, talk radio, et al came into being?


Valid counter-point, but I'd clarify my point isn't that the MSM never presents an issue fairly, nor that they have complete mind control powers over the electorate. The facts are, though, that they reach many orders of magnitude more people, and they have an unmistakable left-leaning bias.

This is what gets us to a majority of our country believing something so nonsensical as Trump's tax cuts only going to "the wealthy".

I have no idea why you're arguing with me about this. This shouldn't be new information to you.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:02 pm

The more I think about this, the more corrupt it looks. Basically, Democrats manufacture a Russian Collusion investigation that finds no collusion. President is pissed off and wants to kill the investigation because he knows it's bogus. Now out of that bogus investigation Democrats are looking to manufacture an obstruction of justice charge because the president wanted to kill their bogus investigation. I would say the Democrats look as criminal as Trump to any reasonable person. Total abuse of power by the Democrats. We are literally watching the manufacture of an investigation and the use of a bogus investigation against a sitting president. If this had happened to any of us, it would be considered abuse of power in a huge way.

The Dems and their supporters applied a guilty until proven innocent standard to Trump. Then he fought back and pushed for this fake investigation to end, they use his anger at a bogus investigation to manufacture obstruction. The corrupt left wing media is completely on board. This has reached a point where our government is completely corrupt, both major parties. They are no longer governing for the people. They are governing for power for their interests. This is the worst I've seen it.

We have so much corruption by both these parties during this period that I can't think of another period of such incredible and brazen abuse of power and sycophantic media coverage. We have a laundry list of scumbag, corrupt behavior by both the Democrats and Republicans. Trump's general insulting, narcissistic, womanizing, inciting racial/ethnic feuding, lying and the Democrats torpedoing one of their own during the primaries, constantly inciting racial/ethnic feuding themselves by making every single issue involving people of differing backgrounds assome kind of historical oppression issue, their supporters did as much scumbag behavior against women, and other lying, petty scumbag behaviors. Then there is both parties general bad policies that will lead to the bankruptcy of this nation.

Both these parties have us on the road to hell. We have to find some third option that isn't some extreme group. These parties need to be pushed out of power for a while. They are rotten, the both of them. I really wish the Party of Lincoln hadn't become so corrupt. It's sad to see the party of our finest President taken down such a rotten path with the other party of another fine president there as well. American people so led around by the media married to each party that I don't know how we get out of this. I'm going to looking for a third party. I can't in good conscience vote for these scum any longer.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby RiverDog » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:55 pm

RiverDog wrote: If the MSM is as dominant and persuasive as you say it is, then how in the hell have conservatives/R's had the success that they've had over the past 30-35 years since cable, talk radio, et al came into being?


I'm not sure how old you are, but I've seen a true media bias in the 60's and 70 and have seen in person how news reporting has changed over the past 50 years. Had the present day media been covering Nixon, things might have turned out quite differently. That's why I bristle when people start talking about the MSM. Turn the clock back 50 years if you want to see a real media bias.[/quote]

The Democrats controlled the House from 1955-1995. That's 40 years in a row, spanning 20 elections. They controlled both houses of Congress simultaneously from 1955-1981, or 26 consecutive years. Since 1995, the Republicans have had much better success than they had earlier in the century, controlling the Senate for 20 out of the past 26 years and the Senate for 16 out of 26 while winning 3 of the 6 POTUS elections during that time frame. When did Limbaugh first hit the airwaves with a nationally syndicated program? 1988. When did Fox News start up? 1996. When did Al Gore invent the internet? 1992.

I am not claiming that the variety of information sources was the sole cause of that dramatic turnaround, but it almost certainly was a factor in making the political landscape more competitive. So let's dispense with this veiled argument of the MSM brainwashing the public and controlling the outcome of elections.
Last edited by RiverDog on Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby burrrton » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:30 pm

But they do not have a monopoly on dishonest claims of being "fair and balanced", either.


Agreed (but that isn't something I claimed :)).
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby I-5 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:45 pm

How are tax cuts that add $1.9T (counting macroeconomic benefits) over 10 years and that benefit corporations ONLY past 2027 a good thing? I want to learn, and don’t post a link.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby burrrton » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:07 pm

I-5 wrote:How are tax cuts that add $1.9T (counting macroeconomic benefits) over 10 years and that benefit corporations ONLY past 2027 a good thing? I want to learn, and don’t post a link.


I don't like deficit spending, but if you're going to be cool with adding $10T to the debt over 8 years for legislative turds like "The Stimulus" and Obamacare, you don't get to lecture anyone about $1.9T over 10 so average Americans can keep a few thousand more of their hard-earned dollars every year.

If you don't like the deficit, I'm with you, but taxing the sh*t out of everyone isn't the answer- spending cuts are.

And I'll ask again: who are you mad at about the expiration date of the tax cuts?
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:59 am

I'm kind of with the media like I am with the political parties. Faux was all I watched from its inception, Rush was on the radio.My alternative internet sources were Breitbart and Drudge. That all changed in mid 2016 when I saw they were in the tank for an unacceptable loony disgusting criminal pig. Fast forward to 2019 I watch major news networks and for cable news MSNBC and CNN, holding my nose quite a bit of the time but also listening to and watching real adversarial coverage which any WH needs to be held accountable and NEVER MORE THAN THIS GUY. Faux, Rush and Breitbart are banned. Drudge is out on probation right now as even the in the tank for Trump Matt Drudge has smelled the tea leaves and began posting a few anti trump articles again (theres a lot more anti than pro and for good reason).

The Mueller report is a fascinating document which crushes the myth of Trumps innocence while not actually convicting him of guilt. It lays bare his arguments about "fake news" as most of the scoops by WAPO etc are absolutely vindicated and verified much the same as the Micheal Wolf and Bob Woodward Books, the anonymous letter to NYT about cabinet members being the adults in the room and contemplating the 25th amendment. I personally take pride in the fact that the Mueller report and all the reporting that came before it validates my gut instincts about this vile vermin lunatic from 2 weeks after he announced his candidacy. I feel vindicated, utterly exonerated :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D :D .

So now we wait to see whats next. Clearly he should be impeached and removed from office but will he be? Almost certainly not. He'd be impeached for sure but the senate would be the real interesting question. Polls show support for Impeachment rose slightly after Thursday but support for no impeachment dropped precipitously for a balance of 40 for, 42 against and 18 % undecided when the no was over 50% just a few weeks ago. Trumps personal approval has cratered again after the release of the report down 3 points in the last few days and down 6 since mid march. Republican Senators face the same gamut defending far more seats as Dems did last cycle so how do they play this with a president in the 37% range. Dems can overplay their hand as well but this isn't Bill Clinton getting impeached for lying about a blow job.Its really a hair splitting decision. Should be interesting.

Go Bill Weld!!!This has to help him if nobody else.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby RiverDog » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:03 am

burrrton wrote:I have no idea why you're arguing with me about this. This shouldn't be new information to you.


The Democrats controlled the House from 1955-1995. That's 40 years in a row, spanning 20 elections. They controlled both houses of Congress simultaneously from 1955-1981, or 26 consecutive years. Since 1995, the Republicans have had much better success than they had earlier in the century, controlling the House for 20 out of the past 26 years and the Senate for 16 out of 26 while winning 3 of the 6 POTUS elections during that time frame. When did Limbaugh first hit the airwaves with a nationally syndicated program? 1988. When did Fox News start up? 1996. When did Al Gore invent the internet? 1992.

I am not claiming that the demise of the influence wielded by the MSM and the corresponding rise of cable, talk radio, and the internet was the sole cause of that dramatic turnaround, but it almost certainly was a factor in making the political landscape more competitive. So let's dispense with this veiled argument of this evil MSM, the wizard behind the curtains pushing buttons and throwing levers, brainwashing the public and controlling the outcome of elections. It isn't nearly as influential as some (maybe not you) are making it out to be.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:24 am

I-5 wrote:Be honest...are you not one of the people watching Hannity’s rants, and even if you’re not, you know what he’s saying and agree with him?


Of course I watch him, how else would I know that he's one of them that has gotten it right from the beginning starting in March of 2017. I get tired of him repeating himself all the time but it is his guests that intrigue me most. Sara Carter and John Solomon have been all over this fake dossier, FISA abuse, FBI agents upset with their leaders, the texts between Strzok and Paige, the whole thing. You don't have to watch FNC, go to Sara Carter's page and John Solomon's page and read their reporting. They have nailed this from the very beginning. I don't know who their sources are, but they are very reliable and spot on.

A friend posted this comment about how Trunp has changed the game (to his credit but to the nation’s further demise), and I have to say, it’s spot on imo;

“Trump's power lies in tribal divisiveness. The more tribal hatred, the more secure his position. So, if you're the administration, how do you turn the Mueller report to your advantage? This is child's play.

You intentionally, even obviously -- better if it's obvious -- misrepresent its contents. Your own tribe will believe anything at all so there is nothing to worry about there.

More importantly, the obvious lies and misinformation will trigger the other tribe. Once triggered their actions are entirely predictable. They will, as if on strings, direct an enormous amount of effort in a direction that reinforces their position. Tribal hatreds reinforce one another and the cascade just makes the bastard more powerful.

Trump is controlling not only his fringe followers but is just as effectively controlling his fringe detractors.”

Wow. This has been going on between the parties since Jimmy Carter, maybe even Nixon. The dems do it but the Republicans just sat back and took it for so long. Trump is fighting back. That's not being tribal, that's fighting back. The dems started the tribal BS a long time ago and the republicans who back Trump have had enough. Trump is just tapping into that and sticking up for those of us who have been pushed as far as we are going to be pushed.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:36 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:The more I think about this, the more corrupt it looks. Basically, Democrats manufacture a Russian Collusion investigation that finds no collusion. President is pissed off and wants to kill the investigation because he knows it's bogus. Now out of that bogus investigation Democrats are looking to manufacture an obstruction of justice charge because the president wanted to kill their bogus investigation. I would say the Democrats look as criminal as Trump to any reasonable person. Total abuse of power by the Democrats. We are literally watching the manufacture of an investigation and the use of a bogus investigation against a sitting president. If this had happened to any of us, it would be considered abuse of power in a huge way.


Those charges are coming in the next 2-3 months. If you have time, I would suggest reading Greg Jarrett's book The Russia Hoax: The Illicit Scheme to Clear Hillary Clinton and Frame Donald Trump
He lays out the exact charges in this book for every abuse of power charge, why Sessions was so remiss in his duties to the president and so much more. He sites the actual laws and then shows how each person at DOJ and FBI violated them.

The Dems and their supporters applied a guilty until proven innocent standard to Trump. Then he fought back and pushed for this fake investigation to end, they use his anger at a bogus investigation to manufacture obstruction. The corrupt left wing media is completely on board. This has reached a point where our government is completely corrupt, both major parties. They are no longer governing for the people. They are governing for power for their interests. This is the worst I've seen it.

We have so much corruption by both these parties during this period that I can't think of another period of such incredible and brazen abuse of power and sycophantic media coverage. We have a laundry list of scumbag, corrupt behavior by both the Democrats and Republicans. Trump's general insulting, narcissistic, womanizing, inciting racial/ethnic feuding, lying and the Democrats torpedoing one of their own during the primaries, constantly inciting racial/ethnic feuding themselves by making every single issue involving people of differing backgrounds assome kind of historical oppression issue, their supporters did as much scumbag behavior against women, and other lying, petty scumbag behaviors. Then there is both parties general bad policies that will lead to the bankruptcy of this nation.

Both these parties have us on the road to hell. We have to find some third option that isn't some extreme group. These parties need to be pushed out of power for a while. They are rotten, the both of them. I really wish the Party of Lincoln hadn't become so corrupt. It's sad to see the party of our finest President taken down such a rotten path with the other party of another fine president there as well. American people so led around by the media married to each party that I don't know how we get out of this. I'm going to looking for a third party. I can't in good conscience vote for these scum any longer.

I mostly agree with all of this but until that third option comes along and has a legitimate chance of winning, I'm voting for the lesser of two evils. I suspect that is where the rub lies though. Some people would rather their president lie to them and hide what he's doing in the dark of night while treating them as mushrooms feeding them crap and keeping them in the dark and others, don't mind the harsh brashness of a president who doesn't mind letting you see the sunshine every now and then.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:05 am

I-5 wrote:How are tax cuts that add $1.9T (counting macroeconomic benefits) over 10 years and that benefit corporations ONLY past 2027 a good thing? I want to learn, and don’t post a link.

Since you said you wanted to learn, the corporations are liable to their stock holders only. Used to be that corporations would be loyal to their employees and take care of them. Those days are long gone. The bottom line is the only thing that drives decisions. If you have the highest taxes in the world for corporations to do business what do you think they will do? They move their operations to countries where manufacturing is cheaper. Its just simple economics. Pay less for your product/service to be brought to market and charge the same or more for it. Let's add to the top of that, any monies made overseas would be taxed at 40% or more when brought back into the US. So money made overseas, stays overseas in other country's banks. Investments of that cash are made "OVERSEAS" because again, the company owes its stock holders a return on that money. So it can't just sit around, it can't be brought back to the US because you lose too much of it. So invest it over there, grow that economy, enrich that government with the taxes it collects, hire those people for your goods and service production.

So I think we can all agree that the above that I pointed out is what happened since Clinton's administration (I could go into many points on how this was done but I doubt you'd read it all). Outsourcing overseas, companies going overseas, etc. The problem with that is eventually the wealth of the US drops. Wages quit rising because there are fewer jobs and less competition from a company's point of view to gain good competent employees. You don't have to pay them as much, you don't have to provide as many benefits, etc. When I first went to work at AT&T in 2001, they paid 100% of my medical insurance. Those costs for health care, inflation such as heat bills, electric, sewer, water, education, etc, etc. keep going up but again, wages are flat. You are losing ground every year on your real spending power. Less money for extra stuff means less national wealth. Eventually, you run out of money and dip into your savings, investments, etc. You refinance your home (leading to a housing crisis), take out a line of credit whatever it takes to keep going. Debt goes up, you may even have to file for some kind of assistance and that's where they got you! You keep losing ground year after year, and more assistance, etc, etc. Now you NEED to vote for more free stuff in order to make it. Now the govt needs to double their debt in just 8 short years (like Obummer did from $9T to $18+T) God forbid you lose your job and can't find another one since all the jobs are now overseas. This isn't the scenario for everyone but for a vast majority it is what happened to them.

So how do you reverse that trend? As Obummer said, you don't have a magic wand. What can you possibly do to get people working again? Remember the lowest participation rate in our history was under Obummer. How do you put them to work? Ahhh, I got it, incentivize companies to come back to the US so they can hire these GOOD people who want to work. You almost can't do that because you are broke, in debt to the tune of $18T though. You better have a good plan to get people working quick if you invest any money in attracting those businesses back (yes the tax cut was an investment). The tax cut also gave those who were working a little extra spending money to buy stuff and put back into the economy.

Now there is one last thing I need to adress here without going way over this explanation. Tarrifs. Remember when those companies left the US and took their jobs and money with them overseas? YOu'd think that we would tax their products that they tried to sell here in the US but NOOOOOO... we didn't do that. We let other countries tax the hell out of our products but didn't tax them at all. So you must address this and allow the companies that move back to the US to sell their goods and services into other countries without a penalty and if they are going to penalize US companies from playing in their market, you must penalize their countries equally from selling their goods and services into our market. Otherwise, you lose real wealth through a leaky bucket to overseas markets.

I hope that helps. I didn't go into too much detail but as you can see, even at the 100,000 foot view it is very intricate and complex.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:27 am

There's one more point I have to address on I-5's question.

If you raise taxes on a company who pays them? The quick answer would be the company, right? WRONG! REmember, the company OWES its stock holders a return. The company can't just take the higher taxes out of its profits and pay them, their stock would crash, litterally CRASH! So you have to move those taxes into higher prices for your product. If you buy raw materials to make your product they also had to charge you higher prices for your goods to make up for their new higher taxes, too. Now, you can't just add the new tax "cost" to the "price" of what you charge for your product or service. You must also take into account your gross profit margin and net profit margin. Again, if that slips, your stock holders will unload your stock and crash it.

So let's say you have a product that you can't raise the prices on because cheap knock offs from overseas that are not taxed/tarriff'd to come into the US and compete with you, what do you do? There are very few levers that corporations can pull. When you miss your revenue growth, you better hold your gross margins and if you can't hold your gross profit, you better hold your net profit. So what does that mean from a very, very high level view?

1. I can't raise my prices to pay for taxes so I'm going to lose my top line revenue goals the next time we report to wall street.
2. I can't increase my market share (how many widgets I sell) to increase my top line revenue goals because fewer people have spending money (see previous post)
3. I can't hold my gross profit margin because I'm dealing with cheap knockoffs from overseas.
4. I can try and hold my net profits by shutting down lower performing plants, PEOPLE, or cut other fixed costs if possible but eventually that will effect the quality of my product or quality of the work place for my employees.


The only viable option is to take door number 4 above. Cut people, move operations overseas and lower my cost of production. Become another cheap knockoff from overseas.

The better solution is to bring back the jobs by luring the corporations back to the US, give people jobs and if you create 1,000 jobs, how much more tax revenue do you get from those employees taxes? How much more do they spend in their local market getting hair cuts, buying stuff to repair their homes, food, etc, etc. How much more taxes do you get from that hair dresser, grocery store, hardware store, etc? No ONE individual needs to bear a larger burden than another. Fewer people on govt assistance, higher tax flows into govt coffers, to pay down debt, etc.

Here's where it comes off the rails though. Govts don't ever cut programs no matter if they are still being used or not. Instead of cutting them out or reducing their budgets they just find something else to spend it on. That's problem #1. Problem #2 is the corporations are still beholding to their stockholders and with more money they will try and maximize their profits which can lead to inflation. Problem #2 is a much trickier thing to solve though without killing capitalism which has led to the best socioeconomic govt in the history of the world.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby RiverDog » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:47 am

I-5 wrote:How are tax cuts that add $1.9T (counting macroeconomic benefits) over 10 years and that benefit corporations ONLY past 2027 a good thing? I want to learn, and don’t post a link.


burrrton wrote:I don't like deficit spending, but if you're going to be cool with adding $10T to the debt over 8 years for legislative turds like "The Stimulus" and Obamacare, you don't get to lecture anyone about $1.9T over 10 so average Americans can keep a few thousand more of their hard-earned dollars every year.

If you don't like the deficit, I'm with you, but taxing the sh*t out of everyone isn't the answer- spending cuts are.

And I'll ask again: who are you mad at about the expiration date of the tax cuts?


I'm pretty much with burrton on this one. I was luke warm about the tax cuts because I didn't think there was a need for it. Tax cuts help the economy the most when we're in a recession as the infusion of cash helps kick start it. But the economy has been anything but slow, so the tax cut didn't provide as much of an economic boost as it would have under different conditions. Secondly, they wre not balanced with spending cuts, and as such, it expands the national debt.

It did provide a nice little personal benefit for me as being retired, the lowering of the 2nd lowest tax bracket from 15% to 12% and expanding the standard deduction allows me to transfer more money from my traditional IRA into my Roth and pay just 12% vs. 15%. There's a huge jump from the 2nd lowest to the 3rd, to 22%, so if I don't get it transferred now before I hit 70.5 years, I'll have a helluva tax bill in 6 years via the RMD if I don't take action now. Plus we're currently taking just my wife's SS benefit and deferring mine until I hit age 70, meaning that our income will go up and put us into that 22% bracket when we start drawing on my SS.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:00 pm

She tells it like it is and doesn't hold back.

https://www.facebook.com/ken.heffner2/videos/2161325443913039/
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:31 pm

The silence in here is representative of what I posted earlier last week, after the Mueller report came out, this thing is dead and going no farther.


****crickets****
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:14 am

So you get off your soap box and because nobody else gets up on it you claim victory.

Good for the old self image ain't it?
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby I-5 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:26 pm

Sorry for the late response. My response to idhawkman is, who said anything about raising taxes on corporations? At least 60 companies reported that their 2018 federal tax rates amounted to effectively ZERO, or even less than zero, on income earned on U.S. operations, according to an analysis by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. The number is more than twice as many as ITEP found roughly, per year, on average in an earlier, multi-year analysis before the new tax law went into effect. Who is on that list? Companies like Amazon, Netflix, Chevron, Pharma Eli Lilly and Co, and John Deere to name a few. The identified companies were "able to zero out their federal income taxes on $79 billion in U.S. pretax income," according to the ITEP report, "so that instead of paying $16.4 billion in taxes, as the new 21 percent corporate tax rate requires, these companies enjoyed a net corporate tax rebate of $4.3 billion, blowing a $20.7 billion hole in the federal budget last year." The list was compiled from 2018 financial filings of the country's largest 560 publicly-held companies. No one needs to feel sorry for corporations, they were doing great before the tax cuts. Yes, outsourcing is a problem, but it's not simply a tax issue, obviously (labour cost, land cost, etc).
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby RiverDog » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:24 pm

I-5 wrote:No one needs to feel sorry for corporations, they were doing great before the tax cuts. Yes, outsourcing is a problem, but it's not simply a tax issue, obviously (labour cost, land cost, etc).


Yes, companies, by and large, were doing great before the tax cuts, which is one of the reasons why I was luke warm about them. I thought that they were unnecessary, and would rather save that ace for when we really needed it. However, I do want to point out two things: First, you cannot have a healthy economy like we do now without healthy businesses, and the quickest way to undermine an economy is to start taxing them and give foreign companies, who in many cases are subsidized by their governments, a competitive advantage. Secondly, publicly traded corporations like Amazon have many millions of shareholders through mutual funds, 401K's, IRA's, and so on. Many of those stockholders are middle class and lower middle class folks, including myself and I suspect you as well. It's not like the entire wad of profit goes into Jeff Bezos' pocket.

Outsourcing is not a problem. Our unemployment rate is at historic lows and we have more job openings than we have people looking for jobs. That's why I was against the way Trump went about his trade war, targeting imported steel and aluminum. China can have those jobs, we don't need them. It's also one of the reasons why I don't like his immigration policy. We're not "full", to the contrary, we need younger men and women to supplement our work force as we have a labor shortage and a work force whose average age is getting older.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby I-5 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:16 pm

idhawkman, hope you’re feeling better
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby Hawktawk » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:34 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Yes, companies, by and large, were doing great before the tax cuts, which is one of the reasons why I was luke warm about them. I thought that they were unnecessary, and would rather save that ace for when we really needed it. However, I do want to point out two things: First, you cannot have a healthy economy like we do now without healthy businesses, and the quickest way to undermine an economy is to start taxing them and give foreign companies, who in many cases are subsidized by their governments, a competitive advantage. Secondly, publicly traded corporations like Amazon have many millions of shareholders through mutual funds, 401K's, IRA's, and so on. Many of those stockholders are middle class and lower middle class folks, including myself and I suspect you as well. It's not like the entire wad of profit goes into Jeff Bezos' pocket.

Outsourcing is not a problem. Our unemployment rate is at historic lows and we have more job openings than we have people looking for jobs. That's why I was against the way Trump went about his trade war, targeting imported steel and aluminum. China can have those jobs, we don't need them. It's also one of the reasons why I don't like his immigration policy. We're not "full", to the contrary, we need younger men and women to supplement our work force as we have a labor shortage and a work force whose average age is getting older.


Lets don't forget the impact the steel tariffs have had on major auto manufactures and companies that make large industrial machines. Ford and GM report having lost at least a couple billion apiece in revenues and ford actually cancelled a new product line aimed at foreign markets. I work for a company that makes genie lifts and we have seen a dramatic downturn in sales to the point our workforce in Moses lake has shrunk by 1/4 from about 1 K to 750. I feel fortunate to still be employed as a guy only there a year but it might not be over as far as shedding jobs at this plant as inventory is stacking up daily.

As for there being a labor shortage in other industries my best friend is the minority owner and COO of 7 MCD franchises. Even though their starting pay is well above minimum they need 500 employees and have 400.These jobs are largely filled by Hispanic workers and would be a perfect fit for immigrants granted asylum and its a problem in agriculture etc all over the country.

Trump worshipers forget he inherited 4.7 % unemployment and 2% growth and a 7 year economic expansion as well as equally long market run. Id argue the previous expansion was in spite of many of Obama's policies and the strength of Americas economy right now is a testament to its resiliency in the face of a batty unstable unpredictable nut case directing policy. One thing is certain, it cant go on forever and when it goes down there is absolutely no hay in the barn, Trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see and china isn't likely to want to fork over another 3 Trillion dollar check to bail it out either.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby RiverDog » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:55 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Lets don't forget the impact the steel tariffs have had on major auto manufactures and companies that make large industrial machines. Ford and GM report having lost at least a couple billion apiece in revenues and ford actually cancelled a new product line aimed at foreign markets. I work for a company that makes genie lifts and we have seen a dramatic downturn in sales to the point our workforce in Moses lake has shrunk by 1/4 from about 1 K to 750. I feel fortunate to still be employed as a guy only there a year but it might not be over as far as shedding jobs at this plant as inventory is stacking up daily.

As for there being a labor shortage in other industries my best friend is the minority owner and COO of 7 MCD franchises. Even though their starting pay is well above minimum they need 500 employees and have 400.These jobs are largely filled by Hispanic workers and would be a perfect fit for immigrants granted asylum and its a problem in agriculture etc all over the country.

Trump worshipers forget he inherited 4.7 % unemployment and 2% growth and a 7 year economic expansion as well as equally long market run. Id argue the previous expansion was in spite of many of Obama's policies and the strength of Americas economy right now is a testament to its resiliency in the face of a batty unstable unpredictable nut case directing policy. One thing is certain, it cant go on forever and when it goes down there is absolutely no hay in the barn, Trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see and china isn't likely to want to fork over another 3 Trillion dollar check to bail it out either.


My former employer is having similar labor struggles. They're expanding, building a new line every 3-4 years, but they are having difficulty filling positions. They don't have enough applicants and the ones they do get can't pass a drug test or background check. It's entry level stuff, mostly unskilled and semi skilled jobs, but they have to work odd shifts and weekends, and that scares a lot of people off. They pay a lot of overtime, which reduces efficiency, and in some cases, have to force people to work OT, which tends to piss them off and increase turnover. We do have skilled positions that are somewhat easier to fill, but still challenging.

We need younger workers that are healthy and will contribute to our socialized systems like SS and Medicare without drawing benefits from them for 20 years or so. The domestic birth rate has been on a steady decline for decades and those chickens are now coming home to roost as we have a work force whose average age is increasing and experiencing medical issues of their own. The only thing that can offset those skewed demographics is to find or generate more young, healthy bodies that won't be a burden to our health care system and have the ability to assimilate into our work force. But no, according to DJT, we're "full."

We need a sensible immigration policy that will flex with our needs. Give preference to those with an education, that can speak English well enough to communicate, that are healthy and law abiding, and that are between the ages of 18 and 40. If our economy turns south and unemployment rises, I have no problem reducing immigration quotas to a point where it will match what the job market and infrastructure will accommodate.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:37 am

I-5 wrote:Sorry for the late response. My response to idhawkman is, who said anything about raising taxes on corporations? At least 60 companies reported that their 2018 federal tax rates amounted to effectively ZERO, or even less than zero, on income earned on U.S. operations, according to an analysis by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy. The number is more than twice as many as ITEP found roughly, per year, on average in an earlier, multi-year analysis before the new tax law went into effect. Who is on that list? Companies like Amazon, Netflix, Chevron, Pharma Eli Lilly and Co, and John Deere to name a few. The identified companies were "able to zero out their federal income taxes on $79 billion in U.S. pretax income," according to the ITEP report, "so that instead of paying $16.4 billion in taxes, as the new 21 percent corporate tax rate requires, these companies enjoyed a net corporate tax rebate of $4.3 billion, blowing a $20.7 billion hole in the federal budget last year." The list was compiled from 2018 financial filings of the country's largest 560 publicly-held companies. No one needs to feel sorry for corporations, they were doing great before the tax cuts. Yes, outsourcing is a problem, but it's not simply a tax issue, obviously (labour cost, land cost, etc).

Now that the sanctity of the draft is over, I'll respond here again.

You asked this question.
How are tax cuts that add $1.9T (counting macroeconomic benefits) over 10 years and that benefit corporations ONLY past 2027 a good thing? I want to learn, and don’t post a link.


I explained why it is a good thing and how it would be a bad thing to reverse it or change it. Unfortunately, you didn't understand who actually pays the tax when corporations get taxed. Do you really think the corporations take those taxes out of their profits or print the money? Answer me one question, where does the money come from to pay for the taxes corporations pay?

Let me go even further here though. Do you really think we have a tax revenue problem in the US when we collect over $3T in taxes every year - and that doesn't include licenses and fees which are effectively another form of tax? REally? I encourage you to at least consider for a moment that we instead have a spending problem, not a revenue problem. When was the last time you ever saw a tax go away? Do you really think that the Feds would have paid down $20.7B of our debt had they collected that tax?

Now let me challenge you even more. Who created the tax code to allow those corporations to take those loop holes? Ask yourself, "why do those loopholes exist". Congress creates the tax laws and they make those laws and loopholes for very few reasons. 1. They want to drive behavior such as hiring the right class/race of person such as affirmative action or drive the "RIGHT" behavior such as economic zone spending in plighted communities. 2. PORK! They are creating cut outs for their friends who will then contribute to their reelection. I really can't think of anything else as to why they create these loopholes.

Here's the problem though, once a loophole is created, you can't control who takes advantage of it. E.g. you can't say that amazon or Exxon are exempt from investing in economic zones to reduce their taxes even though you created it for AT&T to use it becasue they are in your pocket. Now ask yourself another question, what loopholes did they use to reduce their taxes to zero and who in congress was responsible for that clause? "IF" you answer that question you will find more answers to your quesitons than you ever imagined.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:38 am

c_hawkbob wrote:So you get off your soap box and because nobody else gets up on it you claim victory.

Good for the old self image ain't it?

Yep. Exactly. Enough people get up on that soap box when they can but when they can't, someone has to point it out. Funny though, I don't see these types of posts when they do climb up there.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:40 am

I-5 wrote:idhawkman, hope you’re feeling better

Thank you I-5. I am doing much better especially after the packing came out. Breathing freely again.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:47 am

Hawktawk wrote:
Trump worshipers forget he inherited 4.7 % unemployment and 2% growth and a 7 year economic expansion as well as equally long market run. Id argue the previous expansion was in spite of many of Obama's policies and the strength of Americas economy right now is a testament to its resiliency in the face of a batty unstable unpredictable nut case directing policy. One thing is certain, it cant go on forever and when it goes down there is absolutely no hay in the barn, Trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see and china isn't likely to want to fork over another 3 Trillion dollar check to bail it out either.

Convenient that you forgot to mention that the unemployment rate was that low because we had the lowest labor participation rate in history and over 46M people on food stamps. Since Obumer left, participation rate is rising, stagnant wages are rising and yes, even in the first Quarter of this year there was 3.2% growth in an economy Obumer said would take a magic wand to create and we needed to adjust to the "New normal" of under 2%. All this with no real inflation as reported this morning's economic numbers. Something you have to say "hmmmmmm" about, aint it?

These kinds of statements bring into question your "conservative" claims. No ONE, not even "never-Trumper" republicans "trumpet" Obumers economy.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:39 am

So Bob is coming to the hill to speak publicly . It’s a huge deal. Watching trump etc lose their sh1+ just verifies it. I’m guessing mueller has had enough of the misinformation and stonewalling / obstruction by this criminal enterprise. Getcha popcorn.....
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:13 pm

Hawktawk wrote:So Bob is coming to the hill to speak publicly . It’s a huge deal. Watching trump etc lose their sh1+ just verifies it. I’m guessing mueller has had enough of the misinformation and stonewalling / obstruction by this criminal enterprise. Getcha popcorn.....

Actually this can only go bad for the dems. Mueller can't change what he wrote in the report. It is already out there and settled. All that can happen is that he's going to be grilled over multiple areas that I don't think he really wants to answer such as When did you know there was no collusion and why didn't you stop the investigation then. When did you get informed that the dossier was a hoax and unverifiable? Remember, the author of the dossier testified over a year ago in Britain that he had no idea if any of it was true or not. Mueller's lead prosecutor was informed by Bruce Ohr in Jan 17 that Steele was compromised which was before Mueller was appointed. Now they have state dept. emails to Strzok telling them before the election that Steele was untrustworthy. So when did Mueller know there was no collusion and why did he continue the investigation?

This is going to end very badly for the dems.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:18 pm

Mueller testifying is going to be another meaningless waste of time that will not change Trump haters or Trump supporters. Just more political grandstanding by both parties playing their games and wasting our time and money. I'm not going to buy popcorn for a movie about as interesting as watching paint dry as the Dems try to turn anything Mueller says into more than it is and Trump and his supporters trying to turn the Dems cross examination into an act of treason. It's just all BS.

The only way the Dems have any chance of removing Trump from office is flipping the Senate. During the next group of Senate elections is when people should get their popcorn out as that will matter more than this sham testimony.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:08 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Mueller testifying is going to be another meaningless waste of time that will not change Trump haters or Trump supporters. Just more political grandstanding by both parties playing their games and wasting our time and money. I'm not going to buy popcorn for a movie about as interesting as watching paint dry as the Dems try to turn anything Mueller says into more than it is and Trump and his supporters trying to turn the Dems cross examination into an act of treason. It's just all BS.

The only way the Dems have any chance of removing Trump from office is flipping the Senate. During the next group of Senate elections is when people should get their popcorn out as that will matter more than this sham testimony.


It's not going to cost us any money, at least no more than any other hearings that they would be holding if they weren't interviewing Mueller. Besides, I'd rather Congress be spending time on this issue rather than working on something like the Green New Deal or Medicare for All. Plus it will provide us with some really good theatre that's bound to produce some asinine, mostly unintelligible rants from the Mad Tweeter. It will be more fun than watching a cat chase a laser.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:20 pm

RiverDog wrote:It's not going to cost us any money, at least no more than any other hearings that they would be holding if they weren't interviewing Mueller. Besides, I'd rather Congress be spending time on this issue rather than working on something like the Green New Deal or Medicare for All. Plus it will provide us with some really good theatre that's bound to produce some asinine, mostly unintelligible rants from the Mad Tweeter. It will be more fun than watching a cat chase a laser.


This is reality TV gone to Washington D.C.

I read an article about the hosts of Morning Joe that all but admitted he doesn't believe the crap he says. He literally says it because it works meaning gets him votes and views. Not surprising, but at least it confirms what I knew. Trump's does most of this trash just to get votes, media ratings, and rile up his base. He doesn't believe half the trash coming out of his mouth. Pure salesmanship working with a coordinated team telling him what sells.

I guess you're starting to enjoy it.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby RiverDog » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:47 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:I read an article about the hosts of Morning Joe that all but admitted he doesn't believe the crap he says. He literally says it because it works meaning gets him votes and views. Not surprising, but at least it confirms what I knew. Trump's does most of this trash just to get votes, media ratings, and rile up his base. He doesn't believe half the trash coming out of his mouth. Pure salesmanship working with a coordinated team telling him what sells.

I guess you're starting to enjoy it.


Yup. I might as well derive a sense of entertainment from the dog-and-pony show of Washington, DC politics. Nothing that comes out of their mouths has any other kind of value to it. It's better than Jerry Springer or The People's Court. Can't wait for the Twitter feed to light up.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:04 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Mueller testifying is going to be another meaningless waste of time that will not change Trump haters or Trump supporters. Just more political grandstanding by both parties playing their games and wasting our time and money. I'm not going to buy popcorn for a movie about as interesting as watching paint dry as the Dems try to turn anything Mueller says into more than it is and Trump and his supporters trying to turn the Dems cross examination into an act of treason. It's just all BS.

The only way the Dems have any chance of removing Trump from office is flipping the Senate. During the next group of Senate elections is when people should get their popcorn out as that will matter more than this sham testimony.

I'm going to agree with your comment because it inherently implies that Trump will win reelection. I don't believe the dems can flip the senate though based on the senators that are up for election this round. They may be able to gain 1 net seat but that is a very iffy prospect for them.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:06 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Mueller testifying is going to be another meaningless waste of time that will not change Trump haters or Trump supporters. Just more political grandstanding by both parties playing their games and wasting our time and money. I'm not going to buy popcorn for a movie about as interesting as watching paint dry as the Dems try to turn anything Mueller says into more than it is and Trump and his supporters trying to turn the Dems cross examination into an act of treason. It's just all BS.

The only way the Dems have any chance of removing Trump from office is flipping the Senate. During the next group of Senate elections is when people should get their popcorn out as that will matter more than this sham testimony.
RiverDog wrote:
It's not going to cost us any money, at least no more than any other hearings that they would be holding if they weren't interviewing Mueller. Besides, I'd rather Congress be spending time on this issue rather than working on something like the Green New Deal or Medicare for All. Plus it will provide us with some really good theatre that's bound to produce some asinine, mostly unintelligible rants from the Mad Tweeter. It will be more fun than watching a cat chase a laser.

Or maybe they could be working on a fix that can keep father's and 23month old daughters from drowning face down in ankle deep water. That would be something worthy of their time.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:54 am

Uh - oh!!! FBI IG delayed his fisa court report because outside witnesses came forward with new information. Outside being outside of the FBI and DOJ. It is being reported today that the outside witness is Christopher Steele. Yep, the same guy who produced the Trump Dossier. The reporting today is that Steele came forward because he was afraid that he was going to be thrown under the bus on the fuller investigation being done now by Durham.

Heating up the popcorn popper for more fireworks to the show.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:25 am

In comes the justice department to warn mueller. not to testify to damn near anything not publicly known. It’s ridiculous how the administration is just locking down any oversight of this lawless president . Impeach him. Let the chips fall. Pelosi has blown this
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:07 am

Hawktawk wrote:In comes the justice department to warn mueller. not to testify to damn near anything not publicly known. It’s ridiculous how the administration is just locking down any oversight of this lawless president . Impeach him. Let the chips fall. Pelosi has blown this

You may not have been informed by your media outlets based on your comments but Mueller requested written guidance from the DOJ regarding this issue. So it is not the DOJ coming in, they were asked by the witness.

How nice would it have been "IF" Mueller's team had afforded any of their witnesses the same courtesy.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:00 am

Justice SAYS mueller requested guidance . I trust justice dept as far as I could throw the walrus Barr and even though I’m a big strong dude that’s not very far. Interesting mueller has invited his deputy who is far better informed on the nuts and bolts of this devastating report to counsel him during his testimony .looks like he may want to expose this report in detail Getcha popcorn. Watch the Jim Jordan’s in the Republican Party try to impugn this American hero to defend a corrupt disgusting pig. Good luck with that.
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Re: Mueller report cover up

Postby idhawkman » Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:08 am

Hawktawk wrote:Justice SAYS mueller requested guidance . I trust justice dept as far as I could throw the walrus Barr and even though I’m a big strong dude that’s not very far. Interesting mueller has invited his deputy who is far better informed on the nuts and bolts of this devastating report to counsel him during his testimony .looks like he may want to expose this report in detail Getcha popcorn. Watch the Jim Jordan’s in the Republican Party try to impugn this American hero to defend a corrupt disgusting pig. Good luck with that.

He won't be much of an impact at all. Just like Jim Jordan said yesterday, My questions are directed at Mueller, the guy who ran this special counsel not some underling. The problem is that by having this guy there, it will irreparably damage Mueller as the guy who knew what was going on. It will bolster the Repubs stance that he was not engaged at all and that this was really an Andrew Weisman investigation. Yep, the same guy who has been reprimanded multiple times for withholding exculpatory evidence and has been overturned by the supreme court on multiple occasions to include one time with a vote of 9-0 by the SCOTUS.
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