Trump Impeachment Predictions

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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:07 pm

RiverDog wrote:The polls are everything. Republicans aren't going to vote to remove Trump from office unless enough of their constituents favor it, and without at least some Republicans, specifically 20 R Senators, Trump ain't going anywhere. Even Trump realizes it, which is why he's embarked on a huge advertising campaign even though we're a year away from the election.

Impeachment isn't a legal process, it's a political one. Evidence doesn't matter. If it did, then Clinton would have been doomed because there was irrefutable evidence that he had lied under oath. The kicker with Clinton was that the root cause of his perjury was sex and therefore judged by the members of his party not to be a "high crime." It's a very subjective process and unlike a legal trial, highly dependent on public opinion.

Heck, even most Republicans think what Trump did was wrong, and many if not most feel that he might have broken the law. But where they differ from the Democrats is whether or not the offense fits the "high crimes" language in the Constitution.

I'm keeping a close eye on the polls. Unless they start showing some movement, of which IMO to this point they have not, there won't be enough political cover for 20 R Senators to vote for conviction on an impeachment charge.


Are you telling me evidence doesn't matter? Trump could shoot someone and remain president? That seems pretty ridiculous.

I'm going to have to read on the impeachment clause. I normally don't care about this ridiculous BS. But if you're saying Trump can murder someone and hang out in office like nothing that seems like it needs some changing.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:49 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Are you telling me evidence doesn't matter? Trump could shoot someone and remain president? That seems pretty ridiculous.


Except as it relates to changes in public opinion, that's exactly what I'm telling you. An impeachable crime is what ever 218 Representatives and 67 Senators says it is. They could remove him for spitting on the sidewalk or let him stay in office if he mowed down 50 people with an AK-47. Like any other person, he's subject to the criminal justice system and be thrown in jail if convicted of a crime, but unless Congress votes him out, he stays in office.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I'm going to have to read on the impeachment clause. I normally don't care about this ridiculous BS. But if you're saying Trump can murder someone and hang out in office like nothing that seems like it needs some changing.


Article 1, Sec. 2, Clause 5: The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

Article 1, Sec. 3: The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.


Article 2, Section 4: The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

That's pretty much all it says. I couldn't find the part where it takes a simply majority of the House to forward an impeachment to the Senate for trial. It could be that it's handled just like any other proposition put before them, 50%+1 and it passes. There are some rules of order that were adapted, but as far as what's in the Constitution, that's about it.

Impeachment is a purely Constitutional exercise that's the exclusive responsibility of the Legislative Branch to prosecute. The Judicial Branch has no say whatsoever. Even the Chief Justice, who is mandated by the Constitution to preside over an impeachment trial, does not have any Constitutionally prescribed powers like a judge has in a criminal trial. That's why I characterized it as a political process and that evidence, testimony, etc, is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the opinions of the Representatives and Senators.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:52 pm

Here's the numbers we should be watching:

According to the Real Clear Politics average of recent polls, just 12% of Republicans support the impeachment inquiry, while 83.2% oppose it. Among independents, 46.8% support an impeachment inquiry, while 38% oppose it. So, a plurality of independents support it, but not a “majority,” as Clyburn said. Among Democrats, 84.8% support an impeachment inquiry, and 8.8% oppose it.

Keep in mind that the poll question was whether or not to support an impeachment inquiry. That 12%/83.2% is obviously lower/higher if the question were revised to indicate support for removal from office.

This week, the House passed a resolution to approve rules for impeachment and didn't get a single Republican vote. At this point, impeachment is an entirely partisan proposition.

If those numbers start moving south, then there could be some significant erosion of Trump's political base that might give a few R's some cover that would allow them to support removal from office. But I don't see it happening. There's been some pretty shocking revelations in the past few weeks and it hasn't affected Trump's base at all.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:11 am

RiverDog wrote:Here's the numbers we should be watching:

According to the Real Clear Politics average of recent polls, just 12% of Republicans support the impeachment inquiry, while 83.2% oppose it. Among independents, 46.8% support an impeachment inquiry, while 38% oppose it. So, a plurality of independents support it, but not a “majority,” as Clyburn said. Among Democrats, 84.8% support an impeachment inquiry, and 8.8% oppose it.

Keep in mind that the poll question was whether or not to support an impeachment inquiry. That 12%/83.2% is obviously lower/higher if the question were revised to indicate support for removal from office.

This week, the House passed a resolution to approve rules for impeachment and didn't get a single Republican vote. At this point, impeachment is an entirely partisan proposition.

If those numbers start moving south, then there could be some significant erosion of Trump's political base that might give a few R's some cover that would allow them to support removal from office. But I don't see it happening. There's been some pretty shocking revelations in the past few weeks and it hasn't affected Trump's base at all.


Just based on your RCP Republican support for removal from office has doubled as well as the total of 16.8% who don't outright oppose it. I saw a poll last weekend that had his overall job approval among republicans at around 75%, still good but a precipitous 20 point drop in a couple of months. It all about the impeachment inquiry which objection to it is way underwater as opposed to in favor, at least 5 to 6 points on average. Among the surprisingly high # of undecideds as this thing comes to open hearings I dont see undecideds gravitating to Trump and his attack dogs like Jim Jordan who will be leading the republican circus . I doubt suburban and other women will appreciate last night at a Trumptard rally seeing Sen John Kennedy stand embracing Trump and shout at the top of his voice "Nancy Pelosi wants to impeach him". I dont mean any disrespect but it must suck to be that stupid"!!!!!!!!!!

In the last week Lindsey Graham went from being asked if he felt the same as in the clinton impeachment about a white house defying congressional subpoenas and saying "nothing has changed' as well as saying if there was a true quid pro quo that could be proven he would "be very concerned" to saying he wont even read the sworn transcripts, the policy was "incoherent" and the administration had no ability to establish a Quid pro quo.Its clear just from opening statements the opinion at state was near unanimous that there was a this for that going on for months. And Graham wont even read sworn evidence.This is the chairman of the judiciary committee!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about a rigged process. Now Bolton is gonna testify and they will brand him a left wing deep state tool. The argument, we didn't do anything because were too stupid to know what we were doing, if we did it's not illegal or impeachable, the witnesses against us are never trumpers. Same old song and dance. Far less americans are confused about this as russia. They aren't buying it.

Its appalling to realize these senators will likely acquit him regardless.It's why I say it's the biggest scandal of all time, bigger if he's acquitted. It will demonstrate that an entire party has sold its soul for the sake of their political future. America is going down if it happens because we are all on trial. If 40% are ok with this lawless amoral chaotic administration for whatever reason he's going to survive at least till Nov 2020. Either way getcha popcorn. it should be interesting...
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:33 am

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ar-AAJXVdn

Even the Walrus found his breaking point apparently. He must have thought shrugging off the 3 criminal referrals regarding the phone call and subsequent scandal was enough and didn't want to be another chump for Trump. But still...pressuring the AG to make a public statement absolving you during an impeachment inquiry???The abuse of power is staggering.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:04 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Just based on your RCP Republican support for removal from office has doubled as well as the total of 16.8% who don't outright oppose it. I saw a poll last weekend that had his overall job approval among republicans at around 75%, still good but a precipitous 20 point drop in a couple of months. It all about the impeachment inquiry which objection to it is way underwater as opposed to in favor, at least 5 to 6 points on average. Among the surprisingly high # of undecideds as this thing comes to open hearings I dont see undecideds gravitating to Trump and his attack dogs like Jim Jordan who will be leading the republican circus . I doubt suburban and other women will appreciate last night at a Trumptard rally seeing Sen John Kennedy stand embracing Trump and shout at the top of his voice "Nancy Pelosi wants to impeach him". I dont mean any disrespect but it must suck to be that stupid"!!!!!!!!!!

In the last week Lindsey Graham went from being asked if he felt the same as in the clinton impeachment about a white house defying congressional subpoenas and saying "nothing has changed' as well as saying if there was a true quid pro quo that could be proven he would "be very concerned" to saying he wont even read the sworn transcripts, the policy was "incoherent" and the administration had no ability to establish a Quid pro quo.Its clear just from opening statements the opinion at state was near unanimous that there was a this for that going on for months. And Graham wont even read sworn evidence.This is the chairman of the judiciary committee!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about a rigged process. Now Bolton is gonna testify and they will brand him a left wing deep state tool. The argument, we didn't do anything because were too stupid to know what we were doing, if we did it's not illegal or impeachable, the witnesses against us are never trumpers. Same old song and dance. Far less americans are confused about this as russia. They aren't buying it.

Its appalling to realize these senators will likely acquit him regardless.It's why I say it's the biggest scandal of all time, bigger if he's acquitted. It will demonstrate that an entire party has sold its soul for the sake of their political future. America is going down if it happens because we are all on trial. If 40% are ok with this lawless amoral chaotic administration for whatever reason he's going to survive at least till Nov 2020. Either way getcha popcorn. it should be interesting...


I don't know where you're getting your information, but the latest RCP poll shows 11.4% of Republicans favor impeachment/removal from office and 85.0% say no:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epoll ... -6958.html

Of all the major polls, only one reported Republican opposition to removal from office below 80%, The Economist on 10/13-10/15. The vast majority have consistently reported numbers in the mid 80's to lower 90's for the past 6 weeks.

Despite all the juicy testimony coming out of the closed door hearings since the Pelosi announcement, none of it has moved the needle one little bit amongst Republicans. You're engaging in wishful thinking.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:26 pm

A couple of weeks ago 5% of republicans favored impeachment . As you have said it’s 11.2% now. It’s doubled in 2 weeks. And as I said his overall popularity in the party is slipping .

The needle is moving ever so slowly . I don’t see it moving very far and I don’t see the senate removing him regardless of how low he sinks.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:07 pm

https://abcnews.go.com/US/president-don ... d=66827235.

The prez is fined 2 million for systematically abusing his charity and it hardly makes a stir in the media or among the voters. That's how much this administration has dumbed down the expectations for the presidency.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p ... th-909445/
Then theres this... In any other presidency this would be radioactive but hardly a ripple here. I've said it before, Mueller went way too easy on trump. How could the investigation be over when the trial of a guy who directly links Trump to encouraging the hacking of E mails and having real time knowledge of their content and day of release is months from occurring?...
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:15 pm

Hawktawk wrote:A couple of weeks ago 5% of republicans favored impeachment . As you have said it’s 11.2% now. It’s doubled in 2 weeks. And as I said his overall popularity in the party is slipping .

The needle is moving ever so slowly . I don’t see it moving very far and I don’t see the senate removing him regardless of how low he sinks.


I don't see any poll reported by RCP showing 5% R support for impeachment/removal from office going back to the last week of September. There are some that are as low as 6%, but also others that are in double digits that offset those lower numbers and push the average close to 10%, or so close to the 11.4% that it's well within a 3-5% error these polls have, meaning essentially no movement. Plus you have to consider the results of the opposite question, how many don't want him impeached/removed, which has also remained flat in the mid 80's.

I honestly don't know where you are coming up with your 5%. Like I said, I think you're seeing what you want to see in these poll numbers.

My copy and paste is a little awkward to read, but it shows that none of the polls reported by RCP show R support for impeachment as low as 5%, let alone an average. I've highlighted in bold the percent of R support for impeachment/removal from office:

RCP Average
10/27 - 11/5
11.4
85.0
No +73.6

Economist
11/3 - 11/5
12
81
No +69

Politico
11/1 - 11/3
11
83
No +72

Monmouth
10/30 - 11/3
8
92
No +84

ABC/WP
10/27 - 10/30
18
82
No +64

FOX News
10/27 - 10/30
8
87
No +79

Economist
10/27 - 10/29
9
83
No +74

Politico
10/25 - 10/28
10
85
No +75

Gallup
10/14 - 10/31
7
92
No +85

Economist
10/20 - 10/22
8
85
No +77

Politico
10/18 - 10/21
9
85
No +76

Quinnipiac
10/17 - 10/21
6
91
No +85

CNN
10/17 - 10/20
6
90
No +84

Economist
10/13 - 10/15
16
75
No +59

Politico
10/11 - 10/13
11
83
No +72

Quinnipiac
10/11 - 10/13
6
93
No +87

Politico
10/7 - 10/8
12
83
No +71

FOX News
10/6 - 10/8
13
82
No +69

Economist
10/6 - 10/8
10
82
No +72

NPR/PBS/Marist
10/3 - 10/8
6
93
No +87

Quinnipiac
10/4 - 10/7
6
94
No +88

Quinnipiac
9/27 - 9/29
7
92
No +85

Monmouth
9/23 - 9/29
9
89
No +80
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:55 pm

RiverDog wrote:Except as it relates to changes in public opinion, that's exactly what I'm telling you. An impeachable crime is what ever 218 Representatives and 67 Senators says it is. They could remove him for spitting on the sidewalk or let him stay in office if he mowed down 50 people with an AK-47. Like any other person, he's subject to the criminal justice system and be thrown in jail if convicted of a crime, but unless Congress votes him out, he stays in office.


I read that. He can stay in office from jail. That would be funny.

Impeachment is a purely Constitutional exercise that's the exclusive responsibility of the Legislative Branch to prosecute. The Judicial Branch has no say whatsoever. Even the Chief Justice, who is mandated by the Constitution to preside over an impeachment trial, does not have any Constitutionally prescribed powers like a judge has in a criminal trial. That's why I characterized it as a political process and that evidence, testimony, etc, is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the opinions of the Representatives and Senators.


I imagine they watch the polls and see the general sentiment of the people as well as listen to key political power players due to people voting them out if they are not happy with the impeachment. Otherwise, they don't have to check with their constituents, though it is wise to do so given there is job is to represent their constituents.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:19 pm

Hawktawk wrote:A couple of weeks ago 5% of republicans favored impeachment . As you have said it’s 11.2% now. It’s doubled in 2 weeks. And as I said his overall popularity in the party is slipping .

The needle is moving ever so slowly . I don’t see it moving very far and I don’t see the senate removing him regardless of how low he sinks.


Not hard to believe. I usually vote Republican. I didn't and won't vote for Trump. I don't care about him. I've tuned out from this tiresome crap. I'll never reach the point like you where I vote for the Dems given they seem just as bad ato me as Trump. There ideas are mostly terrible. But Trump is tiresome,talks too much, and generally acts like an ass. I don't even mind his policies for the most part. I'm tired of the tweeting, the doing stupid things that are obviously questionable, and acting like he can do whatever he wants because he's president he thinks he's untouchable. Just a tiresome individual that needs to go do something else. Presidents shouldn't make themselves bigger than the people and country they represent. And Trump seems to think this is all about him.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:39 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I imagine they watch the polls and see the general sentiment of the people as well as listen to key political power players due to people voting them out if they are not happy with the impeachment. Otherwise, they don't have to check with their constituents, though it is wise to do so given there is job is to represent their constituents.


The politicians watch the polls A LOT. They are a bunch of ego driven personalities that want to stay in office. Nothing else matters. Evidence, the rule of law, voting their conscience, doing the right thing, none of that matters to them. The only thing that matters is their re-election. They are weather vanes that will twist according to the direction of the political winds.

That's why I'm saying to keep our eyes on the polls. I firmly believe that there are a lot of R's out there that are appalled by what Trump has done but are afraid of going up against his base. If that base were to crack, like it did with Nixon but didn't with Clinton, then they would have the political cover to give up Trump. But I don't see it happening. There's been some remarkable events occur over the past 6 weeks, but the needle of public opinion, at least amongst Republicans, hasn't moved at all. Trump's propaganda machine is too well oiled.

I recently read an article about the differences Trump faces vs. what Richard Nixon was up against in 1974. There was no Fox News, no Twitter, nothing for Nixon to get his message out. People got their news in their local papers and/or the evening broadcasts on ABC, CBS, and NBC, all decidedly liberal. And his base cracked. The main reason Nixon resigned is that Republican Senator Barry Goldwater told him that he could expect 88-90 Senators vote for conviction on an obstruction of justice charge. It was the bipartisan nature of the scandal that would have gotten Nixon impeached/removed from office had he not resigned.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:24 am

The near certainty that the most corrupt president in history will survive is what makes this possibly the greatest constitutional damage ever. It’s chilling. The overt demands for the unmasking of the whistleblower are frightening, a potential gutting of the protections afforded those who dare report misdeeds in government. And the whistleblower is irrelevant at this point. His report has proven true in much greater detail than the WB reported. Why blame the guy who pulled the fire alarm on a 3 alarm dumpster fire?

If Trump can get away with all this America’s system of checks and balances is gone.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:22 am

Hawktawk wrote:The near certainty that the most corrupt president in history will survive is what makes this possibly the greatest constitutional damage ever. It’s chilling. The overt demands for the unmasking of the whistleblower are frightening, a potential gutting of the protections afforded those who dare report misdeeds in government. And the whistleblower is irrelevant at this point. His report has proven true in much greater detail than the WB reported. Why blame the guy who pulled the fire alarm on a 3 alarm dumpster fire?

If Trump can get away with all this America’s system of checks and balances is gone.


I heard the same complaints about Nixon when he fired Archibald Cox, the special prosecutor, along with his attorney general, that we were in the midst of the "gravest Constitutional crisis ever. (John Chancellor of NBC)" even though Nixon was fully within his rights to do so. Both the country and the Constitution survived.

But I do agree with you regarding the whistleblower, although they were completely irrelevant from the get go. He/she was not an eyewitness, they simply pointed out who investigators should be talking to. Trump's behavior regarding the whistleblower is completely uncalled for and IMO in itself illegal, indeed, he may be placing their safety in jeopardy by noting "how spies used to be taken care of".

And BTW, I'm still curious as to where you came up with your 5% of Republicans that wanted Trump impeached/removed from office.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:06 pm

RiverDog wrote:
I heard the same complaints about Nixon when he fired Archibald Cox, the special prosecutor, along with his attorney general, that we were in the midst of the "gravest Constitutional crisis ever. (John Chancellor of NBC)" even though Nixon was fully within his rights to do so. Both the country and the Constitution survived.

But I do agree with you regarding the whistleblower, although they were completely irrelevant from the get go. He/she was not an eyewitness, they simply pointed out who investigators should be talking to. Trump's behavior regarding the whistleblower is completely uncalled for and IMO in itself illegal, indeed, he may be placing their safety in jeopardy by noting "how spies used to be taken care of".

And BTW, I'm still curious as to where you came up with your 5% of Republicans that wanted Trump impeached/removed from office.


I saw a poll a while back that had the presidents overall approval # at 95% among republicans. Can't say exactly when as this scandal is fast moving. Be it as it may if 11.4% of republicans now favor impeaching him his numbers are sliding.

As for Nixon and a constitutional crisis one was only averted when enough republicans did the right thing and agreed to remove him from office which led to his resignation.And the meat and potatoes of that case was covering up a third rate burglary in an act of domestic political espionage that there was no evidence Nixon had directed it or was aware of it until it became public.

Now there's a guy who clearly has sought foreign help to win not one but 2 presidential elections. In the case of Nixon it was the tapes that were the smoking gun that finally convinced republicans to do the right thing. In this case there's a 400 page smoking gun regarding Russia that should have triggered impeachment IMO and a smoldering cannon regarding Ukraine of which the illegal phone call transcript which has been altered BTW is only a small part as a string of high level officials testifies basically in lockstep about a clear quid pro quo directed by this President. His defiance of Congressional subpoenas is a clear article of impeachment in and of itself, much like Nixon in the day.

And yet the Senate republicans WILL NOT REMOVE THE GUY NO MATTER WHAT. Our constitution , our system of government , our co equal system of checks and balances is done for ...Its not watergate, it's far worse and yet the man will not be removed from office. Its uncharted territory in our history, the worst most grave threat to the constitution ever.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:56 pm

RiverDog wrote:I heard the same complaints about Nixon when he fired Archibald Cox, the special prosecutor, along with his attorney general, that we were in the midst of the "gravest Constitutional crisis ever. (John Chancellor of NBC)" even though Nixon was fully within his rights to do so. Both the country and the Constitution survived.

But I do agree with you regarding the whistleblower, although they were completely irrelevant from the get go. He/she was not an eyewitness, they simply pointed out who investigators should be talking to. Trump's behavior regarding the whistleblower is completely uncalled for and IMO in itself illegal, indeed, he may be placing their safety in jeopardy by noting "how spies used to be taken care of".

And BTW, I'm still curious as to where you came up with your 5% of Republicans that wanted Trump impeached/removed from office.


You ever wonder why people overdramatize things? I always wonder. It is empirically untrue what they state, but their emotional nature makes them make these exaggerations. I never understood why they act that way. Nations have been around far longer than us with far more dangerous things happening.

Drama can be great in a film or TV show, but it's tiresome in real life. We've dealt with way worse corruption than Trump. And it's not even close. We've survived a Revolutionary War, Civil War, Slavery, Famine, a Great Depression, two World Wars, the Vietnam War, Indian, Wars, Korea, Golf of Tonkin, four assassinated presidents including our greatest president Lincoln, and numerous other events and some people think this clown is our greatest Constitution Crisis or most corrupt leader or time in our nation? How about you show some awareness of history and stop with the exaggerations.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:37 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:You ever wonder why people overdramatize things? I always wonder. It is empirically untrue what they state, but their emotional nature makes them make these exaggerations. I never understood why they act that way. Nations have been around far longer than us with far more dangerous things happening.

Drama can be great in a film or TV show, but it's tiresome in real life. We've dealt with way worse corruption than Trump. And it's not even close. We've survived a Revolutionary War, Civil War, Slavery, Famine, a Great Depression, two World Wars, the Vietnam War, Indian, Wars, Korea, Golf of Tonkin, four assassinated presidents including our greatest president Lincoln, and numerous other events and some people think this clown is our greatest Constitution Crisis or most corrupt leader or time in our nation? How about you show some awareness of history and stop with the exaggerations.


We could throw in Pearl Harbor, 9/11, the Cold War, race riots and political assassinations of the 60's, and Watergate. The country has been through a lot in its 243 years, I suspect it'll still be around in 2021 or whenever that POS leaves office.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:53 pm

RiverDog wrote:We could throw in Pearl Harbor, 9/11, the Cold War, race riots and political assassinations of the 60's, and Watergate. The country has been through a lot in its 243 years, I suspect it'll still be around in 2021 or whenever that POS leaves office.


Exactly. Trump barely rates in what we've dealt with. He's nothing more than the Republican version of Bill Clinton. That's where I rate him.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:28 pm

RiverDog wrote:We could throw in Pearl Harbor, 9/11, the Cold War, race riots and political assassinations of the 60's, and Watergate. The country has been through a lot in its 243 years, I suspect it'll still be around in 2021 or whenever that POS leaves office.


Aseahawkfan wrote:Exactly. Trump barely rates in what we've dealt with. He's nothing more than the Republican version of Bill Clinton. That's where I rate him.


I despised Clinton when he was in office, and not j/b of Monicagate. He promised us the "most ethical administration ever" yet he was embroiled in scandal after scandal. He had no political backbone and would point in which ever direction the political winds were blowing. He violated the law by enabling his old lady to direct what as potentially one of the most far reaching domestic programs since the Big Deal.

Oddly enough, even though he was more liberal than Clinton, Obama didn't bother me at all. I never voted for him, but I respected him.

But Trump takes the cake. I have never disliked a POTUS to anywhere close to the degree that I dislike Trump. I guess it's due to my having grown up with a spoiled rich kid in my class.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:11 am

Far be it from me to defend Clinton but other than the amoral behavior with women there’s no comparison between the men.

Clinton was glib and funny, able to reach across the aisle and get stuff like welfare to work and balanced budgets done. That’s not a lack of a backbone , that’s bipartisanship. He was a popular president as well with ratings in the mid 60s to mid 70% while being impeached.

And he was passing legislation at the same time he was being impeached, going to work with the people trying to remove him from office . I’ll grant that the Democrats blind defense of Clinton perjuring himself set the blueprint for the trump defense now but there are few comparisons between the men themselves in terms of fitness for the office , temperament , ability to govern and even personal corruption .
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:52 am

Hawktawk wrote:Far be it from me to defend Clinton but other than the amoral behavior with women there’s no comparison between the men.

Clinton was glib and funny, able to reach across the aisle and get stuff like welfare to work and balanced budgets done. That’s not a lack of a backbone , that’s bipartisanship. He was a popular president as well with ratings in the mid 60s to mid 70% while being impeached.

And he was passing legislation at the same time he was being impeached, going to work with the people trying to remove him from office . I’ll grant that the Democrats blind defense of Clinton perjuring himself set the blueprint for the trump defense now but there are few comparisons between the men themselves in terms of fitness for the office , temperament , ability to govern and even personal corruption .


In 1993-94, Clinton was pushing universal health care on us, which would have amounted to the largest government take over of a private industry in the history of the nation, yet by January of 1995 following the "Republican Revolution", he was giving a State of the Union address in which he said "The era of big government is over". I commend him for recognizing the reality that his idea was rejected, but that is not an example of a strong willed person. All he did was to tell people what they wanted to hear. Clinton had a weather vane, not a compass, that guided his opinions. All he cared about was his ratings.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:26 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Far be it from me to defend Clinton but other than the amoral behavior with women there’s no comparison between the men.

Clinton was glib and funny, able to reach across the aisle and get stuff like welfare to work and balanced budgets done. That’s not a lack of a backbone , that’s bipartisanship. He was a popular president as well with ratings in the mid 60s to mid 70% while being impeached.

And he was passing legislation at the same time he was being impeached, going to work with the people trying to remove him from office . I’ll grant that the Democrats blind defense of Clinton perjuring himself set the blueprint for the trump defense now but there are few comparisons between the men themselves in terms of fitness for the office , temperament , ability to govern and even personal corruption .


Trump is still nowhere near the most corrupt administration or the worst president we've had unless completely ignore real corrupt behavior like Iran-Contra, the whole slavery thing, lying to start wars, and tons of other corrupt crap done during various presidencies. We're where we are right now not because of Trump, but because of terrible behavior and corruption over long periods of time within our government from the top down. Trump didn't suddenly create the problems we're dealing with with like the deficit, our military situation world wide, the problems at the VA or border, or the various other crap build up. So stop pretending he did.

He's a huge jerk. I and quite a few others can see it. He does a lot of dirty things he claimed he was going to stop. He's nowhere near the top of the corrupt behavior scale for presidencies unless you completely ignore the factual evidence of far worse corruption throughout history.

You and the polls. Give me a break. If the polls say 70% of America thinks murder is ok, you going to agree with it? I don't get why you can't analyze actual behavior and evidence, then see corruption regardless if the man being accused is a jerk like Trump or a slick talking politician like Bill Clinton. It shouldn't matter how well they speak. All that should matter is that you as an American can tell corrupt behavior when you see it and want it gone.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:42 pm

RiverDog wrote:I despised Clinton when he was in office, and not j/b of Monicagate. He promised us the "most ethical administration ever" yet he was embroiled in scandal after scandal. He had no political backbone and would point in which ever direction the political winds were blowing. He violated the law by enabling his old lady to direct what as potentially one of the most far reaching domestic programs since the Big Deal.

Oddly enough, even though he was more liberal than Clinton, Obama didn't bother me at all. I never voted for him, but I respected him.

But Trump takes the cake. I have never disliked a POTUS to anywhere close to the degree that I dislike Trump. I guess it's due to my having grown up with a spoiled rich kid in my class.


I didn't despise Clinton. He was a career politician with charisma. The Republicans impeaching him for womanizing and such was dumb. I didn't care that he lied on the stand about it. I don't believe most of what comes out of politicians mouths. Mainly because I know they're lying and it's the fault of the American people for not knowing it because they're uneducated and uninterested in learning the truth. So they get what they get as far as presidents and the rulership of this nation.

I was happy to see Obama win mainly because of our history. It was nice to see a man that for all visual purposes was a man of African descent win the presidency proving that if a man works hard and does what is needed he can attain the votes of the American people regardless of skin color. It was a watershed moment in this nation's history. Watching history like that brought a few tears to my eyes if I'm honest. I didn't much agree with his policies, but he did what a president is generally supposed to do: didn't do much wrong and carried the office during a high pressure situation like The Great Recession with some dignity, respect, and cool.

I don't care much about Trump except for all his annoying talk and the constant battles he's looking to fight. The man don't know when to shut up. Bush Jr. was a despised president by the left, but he knew how to carry the office. He wasn't twittering and fighting with every critic like some teenage girl or fake tough guy. The press went after Bush Jr. and the left wing as bad as Trump. I remember C-bob on here insulting him all the time calling him The Shrub and a liar. The left wing used the same insults, but Bush took it all in stride. He finished the job he started. He even embraced some socialist policies he didn't want like the business bailouts. He wanted to let the businesses fail, but his advisers told him to give the aid.

And Cheney was far more evil, dangerous, and intelligent than Trump, by a good measure. That guy didn't give a damn. He didn't need to break the law because he rewrote the law the fit what he wanted to do. The Cheney Doctrine justified almost unlimited use of military power without the consent of Congress. And Hawktawk is talking about Trump's corruption? Small potatoes compared to Cheney. Trump couldn't hold Cheney's jock as far as being a man you should fear when you cross him or as a major cog running the nation. Trump's the clown of corruption, Cheney is The Dark Lord.

I don't blame presidents for level of corruption and world interference. Much of this infrastructure was set up before they took office. It will takes years to dismantle. Which hopefully someone gets started and continues on. Our government is bigger than the president. Always has been, always will be. Trump doesn't seem to realize that, but he'll find out. He should learn to shut his mouth more. He would save himself billions of dollars in campaign dollars and win re-election far easier with this economy. But he can't seem to do it. So now he might go down because of his big mouth and unwillingness to do the job he was hired to do. He's not the owner of America, he's a hired man that needs to learn he can be fired too.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:09 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:I didn't despise Clinton. He was a career politician with charisma. The Republicans impeaching him for womanizing and such was dumb. I didn't care that he lied on the stand about it. I don't believe most of what comes out of politicians mouths. Mainly because I know they're lying and it's the fault of the American people for not knowing it because they're uneducated and uninterested in learning the truth. So they get what they get as far as presidents and the rulership of this nation.


A couple things about Clinton: There were people in jail for doing what he did, ie lie under oath. Additionally, there were officers in the military that were dismissed because their infidelity subjected them to possible blackmail. And on a personal level, I know for a fact that had I had an affair with a subordinate, on company time and on company property, then lied about it in a company investigation, I wouldn't have been able to get out of the doorway quick enough to keep it from slapping me in the arse. I've seen co-workers dismissed for lesser violations of our code of conduct. We can argue whether or not those actions are fair or not, but it is without question that the POTUS was held to a lower standard than what people in other organizations, both inside and outside of government, have been held to.

But in retrospect, I do feel that my position on Clinton's impeachment was wrong, and the reason is because if he didn't receive anything more serious than a slap on the wrists when he left office it probably didn't rise to the level of a "high crime". But I still strongly disagree with those that excuse his behavior by saying it was just about sex.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I was happy to see Obama win mainly because of our history. It was nice to see a man that for all visual purposes was a man of African descent win the presidency proving that if a man works hard and does what is needed he can attain the votes of the American people regardless of skin color. It was a watershed moment in this nation's history. Watching history like that brought a few tears to my eyes if I'm honest. I didn't much agree with his policies, but he did what a president is generally supposed to do: didn't do much wrong and carried the office during a high pressure situation like The Great Recession with some dignity, respect, and cool.


Although I agree that the historical aspect of Obama's election was a nice feel-good story, I wasn't quite as emotional about it. It was on the level of JFK cracking the religious barrier. I do agree that he held the office similar to the way Reagan did, ie with grace and respect, especially when contrasted to his successor. And for the most part, like most of those before him, he's kept a low profile as a former POTUS.

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't blame presidents for level of corruption and world interference. Much of this infrastructure was set up before they took office. It will takes years to dismantle. Which hopefully someone gets started and continues on. Our government is bigger than the president. Always has been, always will be. Trump doesn't seem to realize that, but he'll find out. He should learn to shut his mouth more. He would save himself billions of dollars in campaign dollars and win re-election far easier with this economy. But he can't seem to do it. So now he might go down because of his big mouth and unwillingness to do the job he was hired to do. He's not the owner of America, he's a hired man that needs to learn he can be fired too.


Tump's personal characteristics are what bothers me most. They are completely contrary to the way I was raised, the way I've tried to hold myself, and the way I've taught those I've been charged with as well as my kids to be. He's a racist, a spoiled rich kid, a narcissist, a megalomaniac, a womanizer, thin skinned, lazy, and he's just plain stupid.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:42 am

I’ll respond to your comment about people being “ok” with Clinton’s misdeeds because it was about sex by saying I only point out that’s what it was primarily about. I get what you’re saying.

I supported his removal from office at the time and I don’t feel it was wrong of me to feel that way. I correctly predicted at the time that the abhorrent behavior of democrats normalizing disorder and corruption would set the stage for far worse things , far greater damage to the office and the nation. And here we are and republicans are far worse than democrats during Clinton in terms of embarrassing and humiliating themselves to defend the indefensible.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:04 am

Hawktawk wrote:I’ll respond to your comment about people being “ok” with Clinton’s misdeeds because it was about sex by saying I only point out that’s what it was primarily about. I get what you’re saying.


There was nothing in the impeachment articles of Clinton that said anything at all about sex. The root cause could have been spitting on the sidewalk or lying about nuclear secrets. It was about an intentional, conscious mistruth told in a court of law while under oath. The only thing that makes it less of a crime is that it occurred in a civil trial vs. a criminal trial. And like I mentioned, it's not just about any laws that might have been broken, there's the subject of exposing himself to potential blackmail by an adversary that should be addressed.

In retrospect, a more fitting punishment would have been to censure him. The only problem is that it can be "expounged" by a subsequent Congress.

Hawktawk wrote:I supported his removal from office at the time and I don’t feel it was wrong of me to feel that way. I correctly predicted at the time that the abhorrent behavior of democrats normalizing disorder and corruption would set the stage for far worse things , far greater damage to the office and the nation. And here we are and republicans are far worse than democrats during Clinton in terms of embarrassing and humiliating themselves to defend the indefensible.


Part of the motivation behind the Republican resistance to the impeachment of Trump is payback for the Dem's resistance to the impeachment of Clinton. Like the Democrat's defense of Clinton, the Republican defense of Trump is yes, he did break the law and his actions are abhorrent, but they do not rise to the level of a "high crime."
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:56 pm

RiverDog wrote:There was nothing in the impeachment articles of Clinton that said anything at all about sex. The root cause could have been spitting on the sidewalk or lying about nuclear secrets. It was about an intentional, conscious mistruth told in a court of law while under oath. The only thing that makes it less of a crime is that it occurred in a civil trial vs. a criminal trial. And like I mentioned, it's not just about any laws that might have been broken, there's the subject of exposing himself to potential blackmail by an adversary that should be addressed.

In retrospect, a more fitting punishment would have been to censure him. The only problem is that it can be "expounged" by a subsequent Congress.


Don't they all seem to lie? I remember watching television when Clinton was getting called out for sleeping around, then a couple of politicians, one being Henry Hyde if I remember, both of them Republican suddenly had their mistresses named. That guy was spearheading impeachment and talking smack, then his extramarital affair comes out.

How many presidents do you really think were honest men in their personal lives that didn't cheat on their wives or abuse their power or make a lot of policy mistakes based on morally questionable policies or interests?

Part of the motivation behind the Republican resistance to the impeachment of Trump is payback for the Dem's resistance to the impeachment of Clinton. Like the Democrat's defense of Clinton, the Republican defense of Trump is yes, he did break the law and his actions are abhorrent, but they do not rise to the level of a "high crime."


That's why I call Trump the Republican version of Bill Clinton. It's an impeachment for something that is super hypocritical given how this all got started and requires the American people to be really dumb to believe the Democrats are really unhappy Trump asked a foreign leader to get dirt on a political opponent. The Democrats still haven't completely answered where they got the Steele Dossier to start the original collusion investigation that wasn't proven.

I keep hearing from Hawktawk that the Steele Dossier isn't the exact same type of thing as Trump trying to destroy a political opponent with foreign generated assistance, but I don't agree. Steele Dossier was developed by associates of Hilary Clinton. Action on the Steele Dossier was pursued by the political opponent Democrats. All the intel generated in it was by a foreign spy using foreign intelligence contacts, likely in Ukraine with connections to Biden.

You can accuse Trump of being worse at playing the game. But let's face facts here. The Democrats are trying Trump for doing exactly what they did to him except doing it much better and much more secret. If the Republicans were impeaching a Democratic president for this, the Democrats would be putting up just as much of a fight. Both groups would engage in the same hypocrisy.

The power players in our government are untrustworthy. And will be until we take some of their power away.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:01 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Far be it from me to defend Clinton but other than the amoral behavior with women there’s no comparison between the men.

Clinton was glib and funny, able to reach across the aisle and get stuff like welfare to work and balanced budgets done. That’s not a lack of a backbone , that’s bipartisanship. He was a popular president as well with ratings in the mid 60s to mid 70% while being impeached.

And he was passing legislation at the same time he was being impeached, going to work with the people trying to remove him from office . I’ll grant that the Democrats blind defense of Clinton perjuring himself set the blueprint for the trump defense now but there are few comparisons between the men themselves in terms of fitness for the office , temperament , ability to govern and even personal corruption .



Trump has passed a lot of legislation and gotten a lot done. Doesn't stop him from being a huge jerk and twittering. You just don't want to admit what he's gotten done or give him credit for anything. Even though he's been one of the presidents to stand up for your beliefs about religion that you've seen in the modern era. Something you used to care about. Probably drives you nuts to have a president you hate implementing policies you used to agree with. You have to change yourself completely to hate this president and give up all your values to stand against this one man you hate that Republicans chose to push through their agenda. He's doing a lot of it too, but you don't want to admit it because you hate him.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:51 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Don't they all seem to lie?


Not under oath in a court of law, they don't.

So much of our justice system is dependent on the honesty of the human beings involved that we cannot tolerate it when they intentionally and blatantly lie after they raise their hand and pledge to tell the truth and nothing but the truth. They need to come down on a perjurer like a ton of bricks to reinforce the concept that a court room is sacred ground.

Aseahawkfan wrote:How many presidents do you really think were honest men in their personal lives that didn't cheat on their wives or abuse their power or make a lot of policy mistakes based on morally questionable policies or interests?


It would almost be easier to count those that didn't cheat on their wives. Since 1932, FDR, Ike, JFK, LBJ, and Clinton all cheated on their wives at one point or another, but only JFK and Clinton are known to have been unfaithful while in office. Truman, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, the Bushes, and Obama didn't, at least as far as we know.

But again, none of them ever lied in a court room about it, or any other subject as far as that's concerned.

And as a side note, I do not agree that a sitting President should be forced to testify in a civil trial as Clinton had to do, and I also did not think that the question about his affair with Monica should have been allowed to have been asked in a civil trial.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:59 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:

Trump has passed a lot of legislation and gotten a lot done. Doesn't stop him from being a huge jerk and twittering. You just don't want to admit what he's gotten done or give him credit for anything. Even though he's been one of the presidents to stand up for your beliefs about religion that you've seen in the modern era. Something you used to care about. Probably drives you nuts to have a president you hate implementing policies you used to agree with. You have to change yourself completely to hate this president and give up all your values to stand against this one man you hate that Republicans chose to push through their agenda. He's doing a lot of it too, but you don't want to admit it because you hate him.


The evangelicals that hold up the support to keep this president in office have utterly lost me. They have made a deal with the devil for their godly agenda, excusing the behavior of the most amoral, depraved corrupt president in my lifetime.As I've always said policies should not ever be reason to leave an unfit man in power, nor should a good economy, stock market or anything else. Ill grant hes signed a lot of executive orders, more than Obama so far who Sen Joni Ernst suggested at the time should have been impeached for. And that is in spite of Trump holding both chambers his first 2 years. What has he actually passed, or you mean signed that the congress passed and the senate ratified assuming they actually voted on it? Health care? gutted for the most vulnerable. The wall? billions of taxpayer money procured through questionable abuse of power circumstances defying the congress and smugglers are cutting holes in it in a matter of minutes with battery powered reciprocating saws that cost 30$.

Budget deficit in a peacetime vibrant economy? 1.3 trillion dollars already this year!!!!!. Best economy every? better ask myself and a few hundred others in moses lake who lost our well paying manufacturing jobs due to these god d@mn tariffs, the least republican things ever.Then there was the 18 billion bailout of the soybean farmers, 3 times what he ripped off from the pentagon for the wall. Then a foreign policy with our relationship with nato strained, chaos in northern syria, played for a fool by Kim Jong UN who thumbs his nose at UN sanctions with his missile testing and work at launch sites. All after getting 2 coveted one on one meetings with the POTUS, US flags bracketed by NK flags for all the world to see. Trump's stare down with Iran with no backup plan flouting the entire world by withdrawing from the nuclear treaty has raised tensions in the region and oil prices domestically.

And of course old Vlad Putin who is his puppet master. Now he says he's going to possibly go the the 75th anniversary Russian May Day parade at Putin's invitation, basically a military parade through moscow. When Biden was asked about it the day the news broke he was visibly pissed, said angrily "are you kidding me"? See I think Biden and I get it. I can't imagine how so many MAGA zombies wrap themselves in the flag supporting a guy who cares more what Putin wants than what his constituents want. That's what I hate about the treasonous POS. There are some policy things I've got agreement with, that doesnt mean hes fit to be in the office for abuse of power, attempted bribery , contempt of congress et. If there's a president Pence you won't hear another peep out of me about policy. There's a reason he sucks in the polls asea, why his disapproval is consistently over 50% despite inheriting relative peace and a growing economy, bull market etc. It is all about the man. He's a corrupt dishonest liar and a chaotic unstable chief executive. People are seeing through that. I heard he tweeted 61 times the other day. It's not gonna get better when the trial goes public.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby I-5 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:52 pm

Regardless of any positives that can be spun about this president, does anyone here think he DIDN'T leverage US funds to gain personal benefit from the Ukrainian President? It's insane watching Nunes and Jordan twist themselves into pretzels to try to confuse the unmistakeable evidence. At this point, it's feeling like watching a full on cult in action trying to defend the indefensible.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:26 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I keep hearing from Hawktawk that the Steele Dossier isn't the exact same type of thing as Trump trying to destroy a political opponent with foreign generated assistance, but I don't agree. Steele Dossier was developed by associates of Hilary Clinton. Action on the Steele Dossier was pursued by the political opponent Democrats. All the intel generated in it was by a foreign spy using foreign intelligence contacts, likely in Ukraine with connections to Biden.

You can accuse Trump of being worse at playing the game. But let's face facts here. The Democrats are trying Trump for doing exactly what they did to him except doing it much better and much more secret. If the Republicans were impeaching a Democratic president for this, the Democrats would be putting up just as much of a fight. Both groups would engage in the same hypocrisy.

The power players in our government are untrustworthy. And will be until we take some of their power away.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2% ... ia_dossier

Can we stop with the Steele Dossier? It was originally begun by a conservative group. The British M1 spy Christopher Steele was highly regarded, not some eastern block spook patrol hacking the DNC server. Very little of this dossier has been disproven and key parts such as Cohen and Trump dealing with Putin and Oligarchs proved exactly true including the Trump Tower Moscow being on the table till basically election eve.

Even the reports of Trump being depraved and stupid enough to have been filmed with Russian Hookers at the Moscow Ritz Carlton in 2013 during the Jr Miss Universe pageant are more than likely true based on what's in the public domain.The information gleaned first by the conservative group, then the HRC campaign, and finally the FBI was not used against candidate Trump or by democrats against president Trump but rather shared with law enforcement so they could make their most informed decisions.. In the end its clear that the FBI was investigating Russian tampering in the election from long before the Dossier. At any rate it is nothing like colluding with a foreign power, especially Russia and Putin to win and then substantively doing his bidding ever since. The Steele dossier is nothing like trying to bribe a newbie foreign leader to announce political investigations on CNN using a half billion in lethal aid to fight Russian aggression as the carrot and stick.

The Steele dossier doesnt compare to the most corrupt vile administration in history.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:34 pm

I-5 wrote:Regardless of any positives that can be spun about this president, does anyone here think he DIDN'T leverage US funds to gain personal benefit from the Ukrainian President? It's insane watching Nunes and Jordan twist themselves into pretzels to try to confuse the unmistakeable evidence. At this point, it's feeling like watching a full on cult in action trying to defend the indefensible.


They are reprehensible unpatriotic scum. Watching therm attack people who have done more in service of this country by accident than these corrupt POS will ever do on purpose is nauseating.Im not sure Nunes isn't a russian asset himself :P :P It's especially rich seeing Jim Jordan up there yelling at heros with that stupid smirk on his face,, the former Ohio State Wrestling coach who covered up for years for a pedophile male doctor hitting on his wrestlers. And he's up there all sanctimonious :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The republican party is dead.....They just dont know it yet. It may take a few cycles but these people who are doing this to america will pay sooner or later.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:54 pm

I-5 wrote:Regardless of any positives that can be spun about this president, does anyone here think he DIDN'T leverage US funds to gain personal benefit from the Ukrainian President? It's insane watching Nunes and Jordan twist themselves into pretzels to try to confuse the unmistakeable evidence. At this point, it's feeling like watching a full on cult in action trying to defend the indefensible.


Of course, he was trying to shake down the Ukrainians for his own political gain. Even most Republicans admit that was the case. Personally, I think it's an impeachable act even if he didn't withhold funds previously approved by Congress, which only makes it worse.

Where Republicans differ is that they don't feel it rises to the level of an impeachable crime. Personally, I think that it's payback for the Dems not considering perjury an impeachable offense. IMO that's one of the reasons why you're starting to hear the Dems characterize the quid pro quo as bribery, as bribery is specifically called out in the Constitution as an impeachable offense.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby I-5 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:11 pm

Bribery and Quid Pro Quo are synonymous terms, an exchange of goods for a service. There is also Obstruction of Justice that they can make multiple arguments for, starting with firing Comey and admitting the reason.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:39 pm

Hawktawk wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier

Can we stop with the Steele Dossier? It was originally begun by a conservative group. The British M1 spy Christopher Steele was highly regarded, not some eastern block spook patrol hacking the DNC server. Very little of this dossier has been disproven and key parts such as Cohen and Trump dealing with Putin and Oligarchs proved exactly true including the Trump Tower Moscow being on the table till basically election eve.

Even the reports of Trump being depraved and stupid enough to have been filmed with Russian Hookers at the Moscow Ritz Carlton in 2013 during the Jr Miss Universe pageant are more than likely true based on what's in the public domain.The information gleaned first by the conservative group, then the HRC campaign, and finally the FBI was not used against candidate Trump or by democrats against president Trump but rather shared with law enforcement so they could make their most informed decisions.. In the end its clear that the FBI was investigating Russian tampering in the election from long before the Dossier. At any rate it is nothing like colluding with a foreign power, especially Russia and Putin to win and then substantively doing his bidding ever since. The Steele dossier is nothing like trying to bribe a newbie foreign leader to announce political investigations on CNN using a half billion in lethal aid to fight Russian aggression as the carrot and stick.

The Steele dossier doesnt compare to the most corrupt vile administration in history.


Can we stop with characterizing this as the most corrupt vile administration in history when it's not even close? That's when I'll stop with the Steele Dossier. And very little of the Dossier is proven. So what does that even mean? The only thing you're using as your facts is your hate of Trump. I've pointed out to you multiple examples of historically documented corruption far worse than Trump, you just ignore them because you don't care. You pretend to care and be outraged, but not really. Your stuck in your delusional hatred of Trump. You're as bad as the Trump lovers that think the man is great. You ignore the truth to believe in your provably false view of the United States and world in general because it suits your personal bias.

The Steele Dossier definitely compares as it is a foreign spy generating intelligence on a political opponent. How is that different than an "Eastern bloc spook" hacking the DNC servers? As far as I know the info was dropped by Wikileaks.

The whole Trump collusion theory wasn't proven at all, but here you are still claiming it was proven.
Last edited by Aseahawkfan on Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:44 pm

I-5 wrote:Bribery and Quid Pro Quo are synonymous terms, an exchange of goods for a service. There is also Obstruction of Justice that they can make multiple arguments for, starting with firing Comey and admitting the reason.


Never going to stick obstruction for a manufactured Russian collusion investigation. Not sure why you don't see the fact that this Russian collusion investigation was a trash investigation manufactured by the Dems using foreign intelligence. Not sure why you're ok with that and not OK with what Trump did.

Then again I doubt you care about the truth and are just another get rid of Trump at all costs so I can go back to not caring about all the real corruption that is practiced by both of these parties like Hawktawk who doesn't really care about about this country or truth, he just cares about hating Trump. You two seem cut from a similar cloth. Completely ignore corrupt behavior if the person giving you this behavior is from your preferred party and you don't hate him. Otherwise ignore all the vile crap they do.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby Aseahawkfan » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:49 pm

RiverDog wrote:Of course, he was trying to shake down the Ukrainians for his own political gain. Even most Republicans admit that was the case. Personally, I think it's an impeachable act even if he didn't withhold funds previously approved by Congress, which only makes it worse.

Where Republicans differ is that they don't feel it rises to the level of an impeachable crime. Personally, I think that it's payback for the Dems not considering perjury an impeachable offense. IMO that's one of the reasons why you're starting to hear the Dems characterize the quid pro quo as bribery, as bribery is specifically called out in the Constitution as an impeachable offense.


I don't think it's payback. It's a political power game. Fact is Trump is supported by a lot of people with a lot money that don't say much in public, but make a lot of calls behind the scenes we don't even hear about. Wealthy people do not relish a Democratic majority jacking their taxes up immensely and smashing the economy as will happen if the taxes are reversed, at least temporarily.

Dems manufactured a collusion charge, couldn't get Trump on that. Now they are going after a real Ukrainian bribe charge because Trump is an incredible idiot that couldn't help but do something so stupid that he can get taken out.

Then again we still have to see how this plays out. If the Republican Senate holds on to defend Trump and Biden gets torpedoed by the Ukrainian associations with his son, then Trump and the Republicans win big. It will be seen as one of the riskiest and shrewdest political moves in history. If Trump and the Republicans lose hard, then it will be one of the dumbest. It will be interesting to watch.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby RiverDog » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:22 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't think it's payback. It's a political power game. Fact is Trump is supported by a lot of people with a lot money that don't say much in public, but make a lot of calls behind the scenes we don't even hear about. Wealthy people do not relish a Democratic majority jacking their taxes up immensely and smashing the economy as will happen if the taxes are reversed, at least temporarily.

Dems manufactured a collusion charge, couldn't get Trump on that. Now they are going after a real Ukrainian bribe charge because Trump is an incredible idiot that couldn't help but do something so stupid that he can get taken out.

Then again we still have to see how this plays out. If the Republican Senate holds on to defend Trump and Biden gets torpedoed by the Ukrainian associations with his son, then Trump and the Republicans win big. It will be seen as one of the riskiest and shrewdest political moves in history. If Trump and the Republicans lose hard, then it will be one of the dumbest. It will be interesting to watch.


I'm not sure how much the Ukrainian scandal is hurting Biden's candidacy. He was easily the most recognizable and the only moderate in the field so his popularity might have been a little overstated. Mayor Pete seems to be moving his message closer to the center and has stolen some of Biden's support.

As far as Trump making a shrewd political move in this Ukrainian scandal, I think you're giving him too much credit. I don't think this was any kind of calculated action on his part. I truly think that he didn't realize what he was doing was wrong, and indeed, all of his statements and tweets say exactly that. If he survives, and I think he will, it will be due to pure luck that his base is as solid as it is.
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Re: Trump Impeachment Predictions

Postby I-5 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:49 pm

ASF, besides calling him a narcissist, you sound like an apologist for anything he does. You probably like Jordan and Nunes. We’re all stupid and you and ID are right about everything. Right?
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