Iran: What next?

[Aseahawkfan]

And ballistic missiles are raining down on US troops in Iraq. Casualties and damage is being reported . In response the US has dispatched nuclear armed b 52s to Diego Garcia, just outside Iranian estimated missile range. Just last week Trump said if they retaliated for this killing there would be a “disproportionate response “

But hey that HT is just psychotic, paranoid. Guy isn’t starting a war, he’s not crazy HT, it’s you. You’re just a loon blinded by hate . Besides look at my 401 K! Trumps not so bad.

I’ve been bashed for my passionate resistance to trump , my contention he’s not well mentally, unfit for office , hopelessly corrupt .

I rest my case .

I’m owed crow I’ll never get because forums are like a microcosm of life and especially politics these days , nobody will ever admit the other guy might be right . I don’t care . I’ve never put anyone on this forum on ignore or whatever never even looked into it. Not the worst troll , not the most arrogant abusive posters . I’m sad to see so many who have gone over the years for whatever reason . Hated to see roach bail, really smart guy. His fights with Anthony didn’t bother me but it’s not my call. I don’t know what happened to Burrt. I hope he’s ok cause I don’t see him on either side anymore unless I’m blocked. In spite of our harsh fights which did go over the top both directions I’m really impressed by his intellect in both forums .I see ID On the Hawks side but I don’t blame him for staying out of the octagon. Pretty hard to defend Trumps actions any more. Anyway if you think I’m hard to take imagine George and Kellyanne Conway sitting at the dinner table . If you haven’t read George Conways editorials google it if you think I’ve TDS. I’d say it takes balls to be willing to anger your wife for your moral beliefs .

They been firing missiles and killing Americans for ages. I guess you didn't care because Trump wasn't involved.

You won't get credit because your dishonest and think this is somehow the first time Iran has killed Americans. It isn't. They have been funding attacks against us, undermining us in Iraq and Afghanistan, and firing missiles, funding attacks against us, and the like for years, before Trump even took office.

Yet here you were pretending Trump is the reason for this. That is the trash that makes you look like a biased hypocrite.

[Aseahawkfan]

The point is that attacking cultural sites is a very clear violation of international law and subordinates obeying such an order could be put on trial for a war crime because they know better. Withholding funds from Ukraine isn't even in the same league and it's unclear to me why you're trying to link the two.

True. The military can refuse to follow an unlawful order even if the presidents rages like a maniac for them to do it. It is unlawful to fire on those types of sites. The big mouth can't back it up and the military can refuse to follow his order.

[RiverDog]

True. The military can refuse to follow an unlawful order even if the presidents rages like a maniac for them to do it. It is unlawful to fire on those types of sites. The big mouth can't back it up and the military can refuse to follow his order.

And it doesn't apply to just the military. No one has to obey an order or directive if it is clearly illegal, and in some cases, as in this one, could be held liable if they did. Had Trump any experience in the real world, he wouldn't have had to be told that, so Hawktalk's comment about a manager at McDonald's is spot on.

Next to the dishonesty, that's the worst attribute of Trump's management style, that he does seemingly everything without consultation, ignores the advice he does get, or just plain wings it. Very few decisions are well thought out and end up half baked.

[Aseahawkfan]

Yes, but what's the point if none of those people are decision-makers? Pompeo, Bolton, and Sec of Defense Esper tried talk Trump out of witholding funds from Ukraine....

People still have to follow the law. Distribution of military aid is likely a grey area under the law. Which is why they are investigating.

It's time to deal with Iran. All that we've been doing is to cage Iran. Why do you think the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars occurred? Look at the map. It was never oil directly. We have been playing chess with Iran taking pieces from them.We been moving to conflict with Iran since they removed the Shah from power and stood against us. If you had been paying attention, we have been setting up conflict with Iran for decades. This isn't some sudden move by Trump like the press and uneducated posters think.

We've been waiting for these types of opportunities. If anything people around Trump are pushing this agenda. They been looking for a reason to take out Iranian leadership for a while.

The Afghan guys I work with despise Iran> They are tired of Iran funding Shia militias to attack the government and cause more problems. The Sunni Iraqi I talked to said the want Iraq out of the affairs of Iraq. Then there are the anti-government Iranians in Iran, former Shah supporters and those that want Democracy in Iran and a power change. There are a lot of people that want us to take our Iran. You don't hear those stories in the anti-Trump rhetoric do you?

This has been building. We've been putting in place the means to take Iran out for a while. But because you haven't been watching the map and reading on the region apparently, you don' see how long we been setting up for conflict with Iran.

[Aseahawkfan]

And it doesn't apply to just the military. No one has to obey an order or directive if it is clearly illegal, and in some cases, as in this one, could be held liable if they did. Had Trump any experience in the real world, he wouldn't have had to be told that, so Hawktalk's comment about a manager at McDonald's is spot on.

Next to the dishonesty, that's the worst attribute of Trump's management style, that he does seemingly everything without consultation, ignores the advice he does get, or just plain wings it. Very few decisions are well thought out and end up half baked.

In my opinion, this was one of the options offered. I think Trump is getting riled up to do this myself. I think the people around him are manipulating this. War with Iran has been a long time coming. It was being pushed during Obama. It is getting pushed now. It has been getting pushed since way back when the Shah was first removed. When I watched Iraq 2 and Afghanistan Wars, I knew they were setting up for war with Iran or a serious conflict.

Fact is that Saudi Arabia, Israel, a major part of Iraq, a major part of Afghanistan, most of the Sunni oil producing nations, and a large percentage of Iranians want the Shia Iranian military apparatus dismantled. Publically, they'll act outraged or claim to not want war, but privately they want this. They've been building to this for a while. If not Trump. some other president, likely Republican, would do it.

Trump is going to have to tread very lightly to avoid war because a bunch of very powerful Republicans and Democrats want this war, though none of them will say much publically. They been waiting to take this shot at Iran for a while. It may be finally time to settle things.

For all the pretense of Bolton right now, he wants this war as well. People don't get who the people around Trump are and the only time the Democrats pull these people out is when they want to impeach or attack Trump. Otherwise, crusty warhawks like Bolton are ignored by the Democrats.

[RiverDog]

I’m owed crow I’ll never get because forums are like a microcosm of life and especially politics these days , nobody will ever admit the other guy might be right . I don’t care . I’ve never put anyone on this forum on ignore or whatever never even looked into it. Not the worst troll , not the most arrogant abusive posters . I’m sad to see so many who have gone over the years for whatever reason . Hated to see roach bail, really smart guy. His fights with Anthony didn’t bother me but it’s not my call. I don’t know what happened to Burrt. I hope he’s ok cause I don’t see him on either side anymore unless I’m blocked. In spite of our harsh fights which did go over the top both directions I’m really impressed by his intellect in both forums .I see ID On the Hawks side but I don’t blame him for staying out of the octagon. Pretty hard to defend Trumps actions any more. Anyway if you think I’m hard to take imagine George and Kellyanne Conway sitting at the dinner table . If you haven’t read George Conways editorials google it if you think I’ve TDS. I’d say it takes balls to be willing to anger your wife for your moral beliefs .

Roach left because the administrator warned both him and Anthony to quit with their childish exchanges. Neither could stand to let the other have the last word. One was as bad as the other, but it upset Roach so he left. Burrton left after a spat with ASF, doesn't even post in the Hawks forum. Not sure if that set him off or not but I haven't seen him since. I miss him as with the exception of his luke warm support of Trump, was ideologically closer to me than anyone else on the forum. Idahawkman used to frustrate me with his blind and unqualified support of Trump. No person deserves that much support, not Russell Wilson, not the hand slapping Pope, not even your parents. But he did represent the sole opinion from the far right side of the political spectrum and he was an easy target, like shooting fish in a barrel, so I loved fencing with him. He did poke his head in here once and said he'd be back after football season but he seldom posts in the Hawks forum, either. Sure hope he comes back.

So what we have left in the OT forum is you, me, ASF, I-5, and C-bob. It would be nice if we got some more participants as I enjoy debating those we still have left even though we don't always agree. Sorry if I seem to get on your case every once in awhile. I actually enjoy some of your rants.

[RiverDog]

In my opinion, this (targeting cultural sites?) was one of the options offered. I think Trump is getting riled up to do this myself. I think the people around him are manipulating this.

It may be true, perhaps even probable, that some of the people around Trump are trying to manipulate him. But I would be stunned if the targeting of cultural sites was anything besides Trump on his cell phone. It fits his MO to a 'T'.

The good news is that we're approaching T minus one year and counting. The end of this nightmare is in sight.

[Aseahawkfan]

Just to clear the air a little bit myself, as far as this political debate stuff goes I don't hold any grudges against hawktawk, chawkbob or I5. I enjoy the political debate and have a head filled with a lot of material I've read and accumulated over the years that isn't particularly applicable save in open debate on American political topics. I mostly rib Hawktawk because he can't seem do anything halfway. I do still remember his hardcore conservative rants against the liberal left, now here he is doing the same with Trump. Though one thing I agree with Hawktawk on is that Trump isn't a Republican. Trump is about Trump. It's mainly what he cares about. If you support Trump, you're a Trump follower. He's not a real Republican.

[Aseahawkfan]

It may be true, perhaps even probable, that some of the people around Trump are trying to manipulate him. But I would be stunned if the targeting of cultural sites was anything besides Trump on his cell phone. It fits his MO to a 'T'.

The good news is that we're approaching T minus one year and counting. The end of this nightmare is in sight.

I did not mean targeting cultural sites, though just as likely since Trump is not the one planning bombings. I'm talking killing the Iranian General was one of the offered options that he took. He didn't think that up on his own.

What he has to be careful of is getting pushed into war. There are a lot people in our government that want war with Iran.

Personally, I'd be ok with war with Iran. As I see it is is inevitable. Iran will never respond to diplomacy. They are merely waiting, building up cash. and waiting to assert more power in the region. They fund operations that destabilizing in several nations like Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, and Syria to fight against us indirectly. We cannot have peace in that region of the world until we neutralize at least the second most powerful instigator of instability in the region: Iran. I would prefer getting rid of Saudi Arabia myself, but if we won't for alliance reasons neutralize Saudi Arabia, we can at least take out the opposing faction in Iran.

[Hawktawk]

They been firing missiles and killing Americans for ages. I guess you didn't care because Trump wasn't involved.

You won't get credit because your dishonest and think this is somehow the first time Iran has killed Americans. It isn't. They have been funding attacks against us, undermining us in Iraq and Afghanistan, and firing missiles, funding attacks against us, and the like for years, before Trump even took office

Yet here you were pretending Trump is the reason for this. That is the trash that makes you look like a biased hypocrite.

I hate Iranian backed terror , always have and as a lifelong republican conservative I believed in standing up to them . Not sure WTF you’re talking about. I wasn’t a huge fan of Obamas nuke treaty at the time either . But it was signed , agreed upon and according to guys like Jim Mattis and John Kelley as well as every ally felt they were basically adhering to it and opposed Trump ripping it up.

He’s crushed them , broke America’s word and crippled them with sanctions . It’s not shocking that violence has spiked. As for missiles Iran’s proxy group has fired a zillion rockets over the years. It’s a bit insulting how you talk to most people on OT side like you’re the only guy who knows anything . These were medium range ballistic missiles fired from Iran by Iranian troops into US military bases. That has never happened. They immediately took responsibility , said they had acted legally
and proportionally to an Illegal attack from these bases on their personnel and citizens . They have said if the United States does not respond there will be no more missile attacks but named a list of targets including Dubui, Haifa Israel being 2 of the notable ones including pretty much every US base in the Middle East which are all In their range . Maybe we will avoid a catastrophe . We will see how the handlers at the adult day care do with the baboon overnight .

But yeah asea this current escalation is Trumps dumpster fire . It’s ridiculous to say it isn’t. But I know you have that secret crush so I understand . You’re the hypocrite . You defend Trump a lot more than you think .

[RiverDog]

Just to clear the air a little bit myself, as far as this political debate stuff goes I don't hold any grudges against hawktawk, chawkbob or I5. I enjoy the political debate and have a head filled with a lot of material I've read and accumulated over the years that isn't particularly applicable save in open debate on American political topics. I mostly rib Hawktawk because he can't seem do anything halfway. I do still remember his hardcore conservative rants against the liberal left, now here he is doing the same with Trump. Though one thing I agree with Hawktawk on is that Trump isn't a Republican. Trump is about Trump. It's mainly what he cares about. If you support Trump, you're a Trump follower. He's not a real Republican.

That I agree with. Trump has the Republican Party by the balls. I suspect that once he's gone that the pendulum will swing back more towards the center where it used to be, the problem being that they'll be firmly in the minority as I expect the Senate to flip along with a President Biden taking the oath. I don't like a united government. My motto is "Give Me Gridlock or Give Me Death!"

[Aseahawkfan]

I hate Iranian backed terror , always have and as a lifelong republican conservative I believed in standing up to them . Not sure WTF you’re talking about. I wasn’t a huge fan of Obamas nuke treaty at the time either . But it was signed , agreed upon and according to guys like Jim Mattis and John Kelley as well as every ally felt they were basically adhering to it and opposed Trump ripping it up.

He’s crushed them , broke America’s word and crippled them with sanctions . It’s not shocking that violence has spiked. As for missiles Iran’s proxy group has fired a zillion rockets over the years. It’s a bit insulting how you talk to most people on OT side like you’re the only guy who knows anything . These were medium range ballistic missiles fired from Iran by Iranian troops into US military bases. That has never happened. They immediately took responsibility , said they had acted legally
and proportionally to an Illegal attack from these bases on their personnel and citizens . They have said if the United States does not respond there will be no more missile attacks but named a list of targets including Dubui, Haifa Israel being 2 of the notable ones including pretty much every US base in the Middle East which are all In their range . Maybe we will avoid a catastrophe . We will see how the handlers at the adult day care do with the baboon overnight .

But yeah asea this current escalation is Trumps dumpster fire . It’s ridiculous to say it isn’t. But I know you have that secret crush so I understand . You’re the hypocrite . You defend Trump a lot more than you think .

Only against you and I5 because your viewpoints are so biased. You just listed that the Iranian Dumpster Fire is definitely not Trump's. He added to it, but it's not his. It's been there for a long time. Maybe you know and I know chawkbob knows it, it is I5 I am not sure about as he seems clueless. But there will be no forgiveness between Iran and Iraq. We fueled a war between them that killed over a million people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War Diplomacy was never an option while their current regime is in office. They will never forgive or forget all that we've done against them.

I don't see you saying much to me when I'm arguing with burrton or Idhawkman, do I? Fact is we interact on these forums. You have an irrational and extreme hate of Trump the Narcissist along with slightly lower extreme viewpoints by I5/b] and [b]Chawkbob. I don't like to let the falsehoods pass any more than I do with conservatives buying into Trump immigrant BS and other falsehoods he spouts like interest rates need to be lower or his general attacks on the media. Certain parts of our government are bigger than the man in office and the Middle East is one of those areas. Trump didn't start any dumpster fire there. That Dumpster fire has been there for years. If Reagan, Bush Sr, or even Bush Jr were president, you would be praising the president for standing up big to an enemy like Iran and you know it. You also know Iran deserves a punch in the face for all they've done against us regardless of who is president.

I hope Trump leaves office soon, not as much as you, but probably as much as Riverdog. I can't stand listening to so much extremist BS from all sides while he's in office. Even those against him can't engage in honest discourse when resisting him. That's just tiresome as all get up. At least with a president that isn't busy twitter fighting and saying and doing stupid things because he's used being the rich old guy that does what he wants, then at least we can get back to the illusion of civil discourse on the issues rather than the man in office.

[I-5]

I also agree that Trump is no republican. Trump is for Trump and Trump only.

ASF, just because you are Switzerland when it comes to Trump doesn’t make anyone who finds reason to despise him an extremist. We don’t have to agree.

[Hawktawk]

The Iranians have fired "at least a dozen" ballistic missiles at two American bases in Iraq. No casualties have been reported, at least not yet. I have heard reports that some missiles were intercepted while several missed their targets. They are still assessing the attack. Trump and VP Pence have notified Congressional leaders of the attack...by phone, not Twitter.

It seems that Trump has walked back on his threat to attack cultural sites in Iran but only after multiple people within his own administration told him that doing so would be a war crime.

Once again, it's proof how Trump does not prepare for anything he says or does, that he just wings it, and makes decisions by the seat of his pants. Fortunately we have others both within the Administration and in the military that have better judgment than does the POTUS.

Trump by nature is a big talker, internet tough guy but in reality he's been nearly as risk averse as Obama.I had shifted my fear of him starting a war to him losing a war. Reports are than Pompeo, a noted Iran hawk has been pushing Trump for WEEKS to order this drone attack along with Mike Pence of all people. The same reports are than the military brass was generally opposed and tried to talk the president out of it unsuccessfully. So much for the "imminent threat defense".
Pompeio as much as admitted it in his presser yesterday saying Solemeinei had been killed for "past bad behavior". Now there's a jet on the ground in Iran that exploded in the air in the middle of this rocket exchange with no survivors. No proof there was linkage but an explosion of a modern air line is pretty rare and the timing is extremely suspicious. It appears Iran deliberately targeted near the base with care not to inflict mass casualties. That is a good thing obviously and smart by Iran. They are not suicidal but sent a message no place in the middle east is safe from their missiles and some have a much higher payload than what was fired intentionally slightly off target. But anyone that thinks assassinations and proxy war is going to be less now is delusional.

So what was this imminent rush then right on the heels of cooling tensions as the protesters had left the embassy days before? Wag the dog plain and simple , self preservation and consequence be damned. At least Clinton had the common sense to bomb an aspirin factory in Sudan to distract from his scandals instead of assassinating some high ranking Military official of a sovereign state and middle eastern icon.

[RiverDog]

Trump by nature is a big talker, internet tough guy but in reality he's been nearly as risk averse as Obama.I had shifted my fear of him starting a war to him losing a war. Reports are than Pompeo, a noted Iran hawk has been pushing Trump for WEEKS to order this drone attack along with Mike Pence of all people. The same reports are than the military brass was generally opposed and tried to talk the president out of it unsuccessfully. So much for the "imminent threat defense".

Good on you for admitting that you fears of Trump pushing the button were unjustified. I agree wholeheartedly, that Trump is nothing but a bag of hot air, not unlike North Korea's Kim. All bark and no bite.

It's beginning to appear that Iran's so-called retaliation was just a paper lion designed to show its people that they weren't going to get pushed around by the "Great Satin". Reports are that they almost immediately after the attack sent signals that this was it, that they would not attack again unless the US retaliated, and it doesn't appear as if we've suffered any casualties or lost any valuable assets. The fact is that their leadership doesn't want a war anymore than we do, perhaps even less.

Pompeio as much as admitted it in his presser yesterday saying Solemeinei had been killed for "past bad behavior". Now there's a jet on the ground in Iran that exploded in the air in the middle of this rocket exchange with no survivors. No proof there was linkage but an explosion of a modern air line is pretty rare and the timing is extremely suspicious.

The airliner crash looks very suspicious. My initial gut reaction is that it was an incompetent, nervous Iranian military commander that perceived them to be a threat and fired on it.

For now, it looks like this crisis has passed so long as Trump doesn't do anything stupid.

[c_hawkbob]

On the MSN home page:

BREAKING NEWS: Two rockets hit Iraqi capital's Green Zone: security sources. Details to come.

It's a banner on top that's not clickable so that's all the info for now, but I'd sure like to know if those were US missiles ...

[c_hawkbob]

And here's the update:

Two rockets crashed late Wednesday into the Iraqi capital's Green Zone, the high-security enclave where foreign embassies including the US mission are based

So it wasn't us, it was likely Iraq targeting us again ... so I guess Iraq isn't "standing down" after all.

[RiverDog]

So far, reports are that there were no casualties. Hope they're right.

There's also information that the lack of casualties has more to do with our defensive measures and less to do with a lack of Iranian intentions, and we still have that airliner that mysteriously crashed. But the Iranians send multiple messages through other countries like Switzerland indicating that they're done, so who knows what's going on. IMO it's entirely possible that Iran does not have a lot of control over their military and/or their proxies and what we're seeing is rouge elements carrying out this aggression.

[Aseahawkfan]

So far, reports are that there were no casualties. Hope they're right.

There's also information that the lack of casualties has more to do with our defensive measures and less to do with a lack of Iranian intentions, and we still have that airliner that mysteriously crashed. But the Iranians send multiple messages through other countries like Switzerland indicating that they're done, so who knows what's going on. IMO it's entirely possible that Iran does not have a lot of control over their military and/or their proxies and what we're seeing is rouge elements carrying out this aggression.

After following news from those nations, I trust almost nothing coming from that area of the world for information, not even from American or European sources. The Iraqi Information minister was the worst of the worst. I remember watching him talking while watching CNN news shocked by the absolute lies and absurdity. That guy made Trump look like some kind of icon of honesty. He was terrible. When I talk to folks from that area of the world that aren't highly educated, I'm shocked at what they learn. Educated Iraqis aren't bad, though they are as conspiratorial as many Americans, especially when it comes to Israel and the government in general. But folks from Afghanistan, damn, what they learn as common history was frightening. I had to point out the Wright Brothers were some of the inventors of flight technology. Apparently he had been taught that passages in the Quran lead to the creation of planes. Even the educated Iraqis slanted everything they learned to the Quran as much as possible.

It's very hard to trust news coming from an area of the world so heavily invested in their religious ideology. I imagine that is what Europe was like during the days of Galileo and the power of churches hadn't been attenuated. They are heavily Theocratic at the moment in that area of the world. And as history as shown us, you can't trust Theocracies lead by priests and religious figures that will do whatever they must to hold power and push their version of the dominant religion above all else. Theocracies are something we fought to avoid and now we have Americans calling Theocracy a cultural difference because they no longer know what the word means or that they once strongly opposed Theocratic rule.

[I-5]

So far, reports are that there were no casualties. Hope they're right.

Would the 170 souls on the Ukrainian plane that all evidence points to being shot down count as casualties of the US-Iran crisis? Or only American citizens count?

[RiverDog]

So far, reports are that there were no casualties. Hope they're right.

Would the 170 souls on the Ukrainian plane that all evidence points to being shot down count as casualties of the US-Iran crisis? Or only American citizens count?

I was speaking specifically to C-bob's dual posts, directly above mine, that indicated that there was an attack in progress in the green sector of Baghdad and not of the crisis in general. There were no casualties of any kind, American or otherwise, that were reported at that time.

Why would you assume that the only casualties that I thought "counted" were those of American citizens?

[I-5]

I didn’t assume anything. I’m mentioning casualties in reference to this current situation since Soleimani’s assassination

[RiverDog]

I didn’t assume anything. I’m mentioning casualties in reference to this current situation since Soleimani’s assassination

You may have been mentioning casualties since Soleimani’s assassination, but I wasn't. My post wasn't specific (although if you had read the thread progressively, it should have been apparent that I was speaking of the attack in Baghdad) and you made the assumption that I was speaking in generalities. I can assure you that I was not. I was simply commenting specifically on the information C-bob had presented.

Do I give you the impression that I'm some sort of jingoistic nationalist that doesn't give a rip about the fate of any other human being unless they happen to be an American?

[I-5]

You can relax, Riv. I don’t consider you a nationalist, jingoist, or any kind of ist. I don’t necessarily follow the entire thread. I just wanted to mention the downed airliner since I didn’t notice it in the thread earlier. But maybe it was, I don’t know. Lots of people die under every presidency, but it’s rare to be able to pinpoint an exact incident caused by a presidential decision that directly leads to a chain reaction resulting in so many civilian deaths. That’s not saying the US is at fault for Iran shooting down a commercial airliner. Just that it’s all directly connected. These are not normal times, and this is not a normal presidency.

[Aseahawkfan]

You can relax, Riv. I don’t consider you a nationalist, jingoist, or any kind of ist. I don’t necessarily follow the entire thread. I just wanted to mention the downed airliner since I didn’t notice it in the thread earlier. But maybe it was, I don’t know. Lots of people die under every presidency, but it’s rare to be able to pinpoint an exact incident caused by a presidential decision that directly leads to a chain reaction resulting in so many civilian deaths. That’s not saying the US is at fault for Iran shooting down a commercial airliner. Just that it’s all directly connected. These are not normal times, and this is not a normal presidency.

Are you a millennial? Late 20s or early 30s? I'm wondering because the idea that this is some kind of landmark case of a president making a decision like this leading to civilian deaths is huge falsehood. Bush Jr. makes Trump look like a saint comparatively. Obama was involved in civilian killings with drone bombings all the time.

I know you hate Trump, but get real. He's very anti-war. Most other presidents would have ramped up far worse by now, especially a typical Republican.

This is the type of falsehood is annoying to see spread. I imagine you're buying into anything the left wing press is selling as far as anti-Trump rhetoric goes rather than analyzing record history with plenty of fact contradicting your assertion.

How any of you anti-Trump people can call out Trump on his lies while lying himself is beyond me. Then again the one thing Trump has definitely drawn out of everyone is hypocrisy and dishonesty.

Hell, I'm more war-like than Trump. If it were me, I'd use this opportunity to rip Iran's military apart and support an uprising of moderates. Iran is a tiresome nation that continues to destabilize the area. Neutring Iran would help a lot of countries in the region have greater stability.

[RiverDog]

You can relax, Riv. I don’t consider you a nationalist, jingoist, or any kind of ist. I don’t necessarily follow the entire thread. I just wanted to mention the downed airliner since I didn’t notice it in the thread earlier. But maybe it was, I don’t know. Lots of people die under every presidency, but it’s rare to be able to pinpoint an exact incident caused by a presidential decision that directly leads to a chain reaction resulting in so many civilian deaths. That’s not saying the US is at fault for Iran shooting down a commercial airliner. Just that it’s all directly connected. These are not normal times, and this is not a normal presidency.

OK, that's fine, but knowing me like you do, that kind of comment would have to have seemed out of character and cause a reasonable, usually perceptive person like yourself to question themselves before making such an asinine assumption. If it was an honest mistake, then fine, just say 'my bad' and we'll move on. And BTW, the airliner crash was mentioned earlier in the thread, in three separate posts, once by Hawktalk and twice by myself, including the one you copied and pasted out of a 5 line post of mine where you quoted me as saying there were no casualties. That's a pretty lame excuse.

It's not "rare" that we can pinpoint an exact incident that led to a incident that led to civilian deaths that was directly or indirectly caused by a decision of the POTUS. Do I need to bring up Benghazi? How about when Clinton bombed an aspirin factory during his impeachment hearing? Do you think there were any civilian deaths caused by those decisions? It would make more sense to blame Trump for the Iranians that were killed during the funeral procession than it would the airliner crash.

The only thing abnormal about these times is that we have a hugely divided nation mainly as a result of having the stupidest, laziest, and totally incompetent POTUS leading a bunch of mindless followers that think he can do no wrong vs. those anxious to pin anything they can think of on him to make him look even worse. The events themselves aren't that abnormal. Are you old enough to remember when our own Navy shot down an Iranian airliner it wrongly perceived as a threat? How about the "Black Hawk Down" incident in Mogadishu? That area of the world has been in constant turmoil as far back as I can remember.

ASF is right. You're not showing yourself as a student of history or even of current events if you think that it's "rare" to be able to pinpoint civilian deaths as a direct result of a presidential decision. And in this case, I'd argue that the shooting down of a commercial airliner was an indirect result. It wasn't collateral damage or some boo-boo on our part, to the contrary, there's no reports that we had any kind of response in that area at that time that the Iranians could have mistaken as an attack. No one could have anticipated incompetent or rouge elements taking those actions days following a drone assassination.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="Aseahawkfan"] You have an irrational and extreme hate of Trump the Narcissist along with slightly lower extreme viewpoints by I5/b] and [b]Chawkbob.

Trump is a man who was born with a golden spoon in his mouth and he spit it out a few times and daddy put it back in. Hes a six time bankruptcy acrobat who ruined dozens of subcontractors with his change orders and casino failures while flying away in a boeing 727. He took out full page ads calling for the execution of 5 black kids later found not guilty, discriminated against black tenants.He's now colluded with 2 foreign countries to get elected and re elected.
As president he's vilified Republican presidents like GW that had to deal with horror he's never had to and thank god because he couldn't handle it. He raided his foundation for personal gain. He spent his life sexually assaulting women and was caught on tape bragging about it. 26 women have confirmed his boasts were accurate and the confessed on tape perp calls them disgusting liars.Im convinced he was stupid and depraved enough to be filmed by Putin with hookers in the moscow ritz carlton, partially explaining his very odd behavior and acquiescence to him.. We know he screwed porn stars and playboy bunnies while his wife at home with his newborn son. Hes danced on the grave of John McCain 9 months after he was gone and recently suggested John Dingell was looking up from hell as his widow Debbie was preparing to spend the first Christmas in over 5 decades without him. Hes destroyed the integrity of our institutions, the public trust in law enforcement, the decorum and dignity of the office is utterly in tatters.Hes attacked the free and adversarial press which is the lifeblood of democracy, called it the enemy of the people, straight up Stalin talking points. He pardoned a war criminal whose team members called "freaking evil" "would shoot anything that's moving". Then he invites the guy to Mar A Lago for Christmas and plans to have him out on the campaign trail. He has utterly destroyed my party I've supported for 4 decades, reinforced every negative stereotype, racist , misogynist, anti woman, party of the rich. I could go on quite a while.
This is the president of the united states What part of this is OK?

What part of me hating this MF with an extreme passion is irrational? Break it down for me line by line.

This is much more than a narcissistic prick. You dont really defend him, you just aren't NEARLY concerned enough

[RiverDog]

Trump is a man who was born with a golden spoon in his mouth and he spit it out a few times and daddy put it back in. Hes a six time bankruptcy acrobat who ruined dozens of subcontractors with his change orders and casino failures while flying away in a boeing 727. He took out full page ads calling for the execution of 5 black kids later found not guilty, discriminated against black tenants.He's now colluded with 2 foreign countries to get elected and re elected.
As president he's vilified Republican presidents like GW that had to deal with horror he's never had to and thank god because he couldn't handle it. He raided his foundation for personal gain. He spent his life sexually assaulting women and was caught on tape bragging about it. 26 women have confirmed his boasts were accurate and the confessed on tape perp calls them disgusting liars.Im convinced he was stupid and depraved enough to be filmed by Putin with hookers in the moscow ritz carlton, partially explaining his very odd behavior and acquiescence to him.. We know he screwed porn stars and playboy bunnies while his wife at home with his newborn son. Hes danced on the grave of John McCain 9 months after he was gone and recently suggested John Dingell was looking up from hell as his widow Debbie was preparing to spend the first Christmas in over 5 decades without him. Hes destroyed the integrity of our institutions, the public trust in law enforcement, the decorum and dignity of the office is utterly in tatters.Hes attacked the free and adversarial press which is the lifeblood of democracy, called it the enemy of the people, straight up Stalin talking points. He pardoned a war criminal whose team members called "freaking evil" "would shoot anything that's moving". Then he invites the guy to Mar A Lago for Christmas and plans to have him out on the campaign trail. He has utterly destroyed my party I've supported for 4 decades, reinforced every negative stereotype, racist , misogynist, anti woman, party of the rich. I could go on quite a while.
This is the president of the united states What part of this is OK?

What part of me hating this MF with an extreme passion is irrational? Break it down for me line by line.

This is much more than a narcissistic prick. You dont really defend him, you just aren't NEARLY concerned enough

I loved the rant as most of it was accurate, but what did all of that have to do with the Iran crisis?

[I-5]

OK, that's fine, but knowing me like you do, that kind of comment would have to have seemed out of character and cause a reasonable, usually perceptive person like yourself to question themselves before making such an asinine assumption. If it was an honest mistake, then fine, just say 'my bad' and we'll move on. And BTW, the airliner crash was mentioned earlier in the thread, in three separate posts, once by Hawktalk and twice by myself, including the one you copied and pasted out of a 5 line post of mine where you quoted me as saying there were no casualties. That's a pretty lame excuse.

Fine. Last time I tried to apologize, you said 'no need'. So I'll say 'my bad' if it seemed like I was attacking you (I wasn't, though). We all say asanine things every day (I've called you out when you're inaccurate too, so no big deal. It's true though that I don't follow the thread all the way, so definitely my bad for that.

[RiverDog]

Fine. Last time I tried to apologize, you said 'no need'. So I'll say 'my bad' if it seemed like I was attacking you (I wasn't, though). We all say asanine things every day (I've called you out when you're inaccurate too, so no big deal. It's true though that I don't follow the thread all the way, so definitely my bad for that.

Well, you didn't really need to follow the entire thread to see that I mentioned the plane crash, just read the other 4 sentences in the very post you quoted me in. But no worries. I don't need apologies, but I do appreciate an acknowledgement accepting responsibility of one's mistakes, and that didn't seem as forthcoming then as you've done now.

You've always been a decent, honest debater of whom I respect.

[Hawktawk]

I loved the rant as most of it was accurate, but what did all of that have to do with the Iran crisis?

In a rant about the topic asea made that comment about me being irrational in my hatred of trump. I’ve been told I’m “ blinded by hate”. That’s ass backwards . I hate because my eyes are so wide open they look like coffee saucers . Those who don’t hate this mans guts are blind . I’m tired of the charge . There’s something worth hating .

What part of rant isn’t accurate?

[RiverDog]

What part of rant isn’t accurate?

It's not so much the content and I'm not saying that you're categorically wrong. It's just the way you put things that tends to inflate your narrative, such as:

..born with a golden spoon in his mouth and he spit it out a few times and daddy put it back in...He spent his life sexually assaulting women..Hes danced on the grave of John McCain... he was stupid and depraved enough to be filmed by Putin with hookers in the moscow ritz carlton..

And just speaking for myself, IMO the term "hate" is the most misused words in our current modern day vocabulary. The only people I truly hate are those that are truly despicable, like Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer, people that if I had the means and opportunity, I would kill with my bare hands.

I don't have a lot of respect for Donald Trump as he's many of the things that you say he is, but I don't "hate" him or wish him harm.

[Hawktawk]

Well I believe despicable is an extremely appropriate description of DJT. Beyond that he is ridiculous in appearance so it’s a big well deserving target . He has no redeeming value.

I don’t root for physical violence, well Biden walking across the stage and kicking him in the nutz would be entertaining

seriously the metaphors I get ragged on for using in here draw belly laughs in real time . It’s how I speak to my wife and many friends and both generally find me quite humorous and good natured. It’s just who I’ve been for my entire life . I’m not gonna change now

[RiverDog]

Well I believe despicable is an extremely appropriate description of DJT. Beyond that he is ridiculous in appearance so it’s a big well deserving target . He has no redeeming value.

I don’t root for physical violence, well Biden walking across the stage and kicking him in the nutz would be entertaining

seriously the metaphors I get ragged on for using in here draw belly laughs in real time . It’s how I speak to my wife and many friends and both generally find me quite humorous and good natured. It’s just who I’ve been for my entire life . I’m not gonna change now

I'm not asking you to change, but you're obviously sensitive to accusations of being somewhat abnormal as you've clearly been defensive when attacked, and it's your metaphors that cause others to come to that conclusion. I've also found that if I want someone that doesn't always agree with me to consider my remarks that it helps to hold myself as an intelligent, rational poster. JHMO.

Back to the OP. Tensions are still high, but they have come down from what they were in the two days following the assassination. The Trump Administration has added some more sanctions (I didn't realize we had more that we could impose. I would expect some act of terrorism to occur by one of the rouge groups associated with Iran. It's unclear as to how the investigation of the crashed airliner will proceed. As a rule, the manufacturing country's agency responsible for investigating airline accidents, in this case, the United States' NTSB, participates in the investigation but it's doubtful that the Iranians will ask for our help, nor do I think it a good idea to put those people's lives in danger and risk yet another confrontation.

Trump could come out of this smelling like a rose. He's taken out a really bad guy yet he appears to have avoided a major military conflict. There's a familiar fight going on in Congress, with the party out of power wanting more information and the party in power unwilling to share everything.

[Hawktawk]

I'm not asking you to change, but you're obviously sensitive to accusations of being somewhat abnormal as you've clearly been defensive when attacked, and it's your metaphors that cause others to come to that conclusion. I've also found that if I want someone that doesn't always agree with me to consider my remarks that it helps to hold myself as an intelligent, rational poster. JHMO.

Back to the OP. Tensions are still high, but they have come down from what they were in the two days following the assassination. The Trump Administration has added some more sanctions (I didn't realize we had more that we could impose. I would expect some act of terrorism to occur by one of the rouge groups associated with Iran. It's unclear as to how the investigation of the crashed airliner will proceed. As a rule, the manufacturing country's agency responsible for investigating airline accidents, in this case, the United States' NTSB, participates in the investigation but it's doubtful that the Iranians will ask for our help, nor do I think it a good idea to put those people's lives in danger and risk yet another confrontation.

Trump could come out of this smelling like a rose. He's taken out a really bad guy yet he appears to have avoided a major military conflict. There's a familiar fight going on in Congress, with the party out of power wanting more information and the party in power unwilling to share everything.

It doesn't bother me if people say I'm "abnormal" WTF. Just gonna call out the hypocrisy of those who accept, put up with or defend Trump in any way calling me irrational , abnormal, a loon, whatever:D

https://apnews.com/786998edec97e3845b496bb29a15ec7d Now its learned they tried to take out another Iranian citizen in Yemen at the same time, a primarily FINANCIAL officer and high ranking military official. This squares with the "imminent threat' requiring a drone strike of the Iranian equivalent of Mike Pence rolled into Mark Esper leaving Baghdad international exactly how?

They cant keep their story straight. We want from imminent threat can't tell you what, president blurts out "multiple embassies!!!on the trail.Senators in the gang of 8 have said they heard none of that in a classified briefing Mike Pompeo has turned himself into a pretzel trying to defend these lies, basically calling 8 senators liars by saying they did receive a briefing on embassies. Even Trump bobblehead Laura Engram pressed Trump very hard yesterday about the threat to these embassies as he walked around trying to defend what he had said "why cant you show it to the american people"?Thats huge.

As for this being strictly republicans in favor of this and dems opposed that's not correct at all.
https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/477 ... aning-iran.

As for smelling like a rose this is a pretty good analogy for what happened I believe. Just because you get on the highway drunk and play chicken and the other guy swerves it didn't mean it was smart. Neither does playing russian roulette and missing the chambered round. We had Nukes in Diego Garcia. They fired ballistic missiles and satellite footage shows several buildings and runways damaged. Had there been no warning there would have been casualties. Then what will have happened?
I highly doubt this is over. As Trump gloats and beats his chest he will only enrage the Iranian people further. They are demanding the ouster of the Ayatollah over lying about the shoot down already. The Citizens know right from wrong. Iranian commanders are reportedly still intent on further revenge.If anything Soleimanie could control the surrogates in the field as demonstrated the the lack of attacks on US installations between 2015 and Trump making a liar out of the western world. Now all bets are off. They have appointed a new commander but will it be a headless monster or will they just turn them loose.(will Trump drone the new guy? ):lol: Anyone who thinks the millions of mourners in Iran, Iraq and throughout the middle east won't spawn some radical terror is fooling themself. I saw a couple of US service members were tragically killed by an IED today over there. I really hadn't heard much about those type of attacks lately so who knows.

Revenge is a dish best served cold. I'm afraid lots of people are going to die before this is over.

[RiverDog]

Just because you get on the highway drunk and play chicken and the other guy swerves it didn't mean it was smart. Neither does playing russian roulette and missing the chambered round. We had Nukes in Diego Garcia. They fired ballistic missiles and satellite footage shows several buildings and runways damaged. Had there been no warning there would have been casualties. Then what will have happened?

It's quite possible that Trump's lunatic-like talk and wild eyed threats against the Iranians is one of the factors that could have resulted in their rather tepid response. I keep thinking of Khrushchev remarks to others in the review of the Cuban Missile Crisis that it was his initial impression of JFK as being weak and passive that gave the Soviet leader the courage to start putting ballistic missiles in Cuba. Had there been a mad bomber like Barry Goldwater, widely perceived to have an itchy trigger figure, in the Oval Office, they may have not even dared to challenge us.

I highly doubt this is over. As Trump gloats and beats his chest he will only enrage the Iranian people further. They are demanding the ouster of the Ayatollah over lying about the shoot down already. The Citizens know right from wrong. Iranian commanders are reportedly still intent on further revenge.If anything Soleimanie could control the surrogates in the field as demonstrated the the lack of attacks on US installations between 2015 and Trump making a liar out of the western world. Now all bets are off. They have appointed a new commander but will it be a headless monster or will they just turn them loose.(will Trump drone the new guy? ):lol: Anyone who thinks the millions of mourners in Iran, Iraq and throughout the middle east won't spawn some radical terror is fooling themself. I saw a couple of US service members were tragically killed by an IED today over there. I really hadn't heard much about those type of attacks lately so who knows.

Revenge is a dish best served cold. I'm afraid lots of people are going to die before this is over.

We can't blame Trump for the behavior of citizens in Iran. They're going to hate us who ever our POTUS is.

[I-5]

Wow. We have this complete tool and Con Man in office, and HT is the abnormal one for raking him over the coals? I feel like we are in a twilight zone. The only sane news I see today is that a majority of Americans now feel less safe considering how the president is handling Iran.

On another note, has any other administration ever had a press secretary who has been in office a year and yet to give a single press briefing? Any?

[c_hawkbob]

I agree. Tawk is nowhere near as over the top as the Bozo he's calling out and he gets nothing but crap here for it. It's Bizzaro World.

[RiverDog]

On another note, has any other administration ever had a press secretary who has been in office a year and yet to give a single press briefing? Any?

None in my memory or understanding of history, at least not since Roosevelt. FDR is the POTUS that first started the practice of conferring with reporters.

There's several reasons for this. First of all, the White House press corps, although not as unbalanced as it used to be 40 or 50 years ago, is still a pretty liberally biased group as a whole. Just guessing, but it seems to me that Republican presidents in general have held fewer press conferences than their Democratic counterparts due mainly to this reason. It's the same reason why many Dems have openly refused to appear on Fox News.

Secondly, social media gives the WH the ability to get their message out without having to go through a media filter. This option has never existed before, and when combined with the former, causes this administration to feel that they don't need the media to get their views out. Plus the subject matter is no longer timely. By the time they get around to holding a press conference, the issues are old news and debates both pro and con have widely circulated.

Thirdly, this POTUS contradicts himself so much and puts out so much blatantly false information that no press secretary in their right mind would want to go out there and defend or explain his remarks/tweets. They do not want to field questions from people they view as the enemy. They've already spoken to the people they care about, ie their political base, so screw the press, or at least that's what they're thinking.

[Hawktawk]

https://apnews.com/5a168a5d8f560e928f3924f7af10f1d8 Esper admits he never heard of any embassy bombings

The hits just keep a comin. And so much for the lies about an imminent threat. Its unraveling like a Kmart sweater.I also saw in a televised report that Trump had approved the killing of Soleimani SEVEN MONTHS ago, on the heels of the "measured" response not responding to the shoot down in international airspace of a drone that cost as much as 10 F-16s. Many on this forum called it a measured response, I thought calling off a well deserved strike with planes in the air due to fear of Iranian casualties showed weakness. Now we learn that in the same breath as worrying about troops in a few AA batteries getting sluiced he agreed to assassinate one of the most powerful men in the middle east.
Meanwhile Rocket Man does as he pleases and gets love letters. It just demonstrates the utter chaos of the foreign policy of this administration. Fortunately the American people aren't buying it with 53% opposed to Trump's handling of Iran, only 25% think we are safer with 25% unsure. Even 53% of republicans feel we are less safe with Trump's handling of this.
I cant see this helping at the polls.