The Impeachment Vote: The House has impeached

[RiverDog]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-tied-ukraine-aid-to-inquiries-he-sought-bolton-book-says/ar-BBZlMfy
So much for the Trump legal teams assertion that there is absolutely no proof of linkage And based on the Bolton teams assertion that they did not leak this and only shared it with the WH for vetting of classified information it would mean someone on the president's legal or NSA team leaked it to hurt him.

It's clear this WH is comprising a strategy to deny any wrongdoing knowing full well this evidence of what Bolton would say for weeks and planned to lock down Bolton, likely claim executive privilege and tie him and the process up for months.
Should he testify they will launch a withering attack an an arch conservative with decades of fierce loyalty to the party, tremendous gravitas and credibility. They will say he's lying to sell a book.It will come down to who believes who.And polls show people dont trust trump on this, far more than support impeachment feel he's committed wrongdoing. Like I say Trump will win this round in the legal sense but the public won't forget, especially when slime from the dirty dealings with ukraine and wherever else will be oozing out all the way to november.

The Bolton revelation throws a monkey wrench into the process. It puts the pressure on the R's to at least allow Bolton to testify. It had appeared that the R's were not going to allow witnesses, but this could change things as failing to do so would lend credence to claims that the R Senators are participating in a cover-up, which could hurt those that are up for re-election in November.

[c_hawkbob]

Romney said today that it's likely at least 4 R's will break with the pack and ask for witnesses.

[RiverDog]

Romney said today that it's likely at least 4 R's will break with the pack and ask for witnesses.

That doesn't surprise me. What will be interesting is if they decide to call Hunter Biden as a witness as they've been threatening to do.

If the R's do call Hunter Biden, then it will be a great example of how impeachment is a political/Constitutional process vs. a legal one. No judge worth their weight would allow a witness like Biden to testify because he has no knowledge whatsoever of the alleged crimes committed by the defendant. The R's would be calling him for no other purpose but to give more air time to Joe Biden's dirty laundry. But in an impeachment, Chief Justice Roberts has no power other than to "preside". The Republican-controlled Senate can do as it pleases.

It really is a flaw of how the Constitution was written. If I had my way, the Supreme Court would have a lot more to say as to how this trial is being conducted. But it is what it is. At least we won't have to wait very long for the election.

[Hawktawk]

Secret ballots RD my friend.Thats the ticket, not the scotus. And frankly if enough senators agreed, I believe only 4 are needed they could propose exactly that right now. The Senate sets its rules.

They are not legislators. they are jurors. No other juror reveals their vote. The public and the Potus has a right to know how they vote on legislation but when they are a jury voting on the fitness of the president politics should have no place in it beyond a person's own political preferences. The fatal flaw in the process is that pressure from fanatical supporters of this president and to a degree Clinton causes them to vote based on that fear, that pressure, not the substance of the evidence.
Talk about your mob rule when 42% of america can stick us all with an unfit impeached president cause Senators dont want to get primaried.

Republicans hammered on the Bidens and Burisma today. With the Bolton stuff out making the case for a legitimate reason to investigate Burisma and the bidens is the only fig leaf left. Its a bad look with Hunter. It doesn't make what Trump did OK but its a definite chink in the armor.

[RiverDog]

Secret ballots RD my friend.Thats the ticket, not the scotus. And frankly if enough senators agreed, I believe only 4 are needed they could propose exactly that right now. The Senate sets its rules.

They are not legislators. they are jurors. No other juror reveals their vote. The public and the Potus has a right to know how they vote on legislation but when they are a jury voting on the fitness of the president politics should have no place in it beyond a person's own political preferences. The fatal flaw in the process is that pressure from fanatical supporters of this president and to a degree Clinton causes them to vote based on that fear, that pressure, not the substance of the evidence.
Talk about your mob rule when 42% of america can stick us all with an unfit impeached president cause Senators dont want to get primaried.

Republicans hammered on the Bidens and Burisma today. With the Bolton stuff out making the case for a legitimate reason to investigate Burisma and the bidens is the only fig leaf left. Its a bad look with Hunter. It doesn't make what Trump did OK but its a definite chink in the armor.

Comparing the Senators duties in an impeachment with a juror's duties in a civil or criminal trial is comparing apples with oranges. Senators in an impeachment trial are not sequestered, the prosecution and defense does not have an opportunity to interview and disqualify them from serving, they do not hear instructions from a judge, and so on. If this were a civil or criminal trial, not a single Senator would be permitted to serve as a juror because they've heard too much about the case beforehand.

The R's didn't advance their defense of Trump's actions today, but they were able to utilize the platform to rip into Joe Biden and highlight some of the inconsistencies in the Obama Administration's handling of Ukraine. That's exactly why it was so foolish for the Democrats to pursue this as an impeachment rather than simply use it as a campaign issue. All they're doing is hurting their chances of taking back the White House.

I'm not saying that the information in this poll is superior to that of any other randomly selected poll, but I thought it interesting as they've graphed results from 10/1 to 1/26 and it shows almost no movement during that period of time:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/impeachment-polls/

[Hawktawk]

The poll shows what most show , a bit over half the country favoring removal . But the situation is in flux as well over 70% of voters want witnesses .i don’t see how it hurts Democrats politically at all and regardless I felt impeachment was the right thing to do. Secret ballots would take politics out of it and the correct outcome would be realized .The Bolton bombshell makes it harder and harder on republican senators to toe the line and many are pissed about being blindsided with information the WH has known about since late Dec. The irony was rich watching Trump synchophant Pam Bondi tear up Hunter Biden for getting a job because of his daddy’s name. Contrast that with svetlana, jarred boy, Donnie Jr and Eric jet setting around squeezing money out of foreign countries to line their pockets . Then there’s Bondi herself taking a donation of 25 K from a trump in 2015 and killing an investigation into Trump university oh the crusaders fighting g corruption in Ukraine

but the hand painted raindrop was watching Ken Fn Starr bemoan and lament the “age of impeachment” “ impeachment is hell”. Really ? It was also sweet watching Epstein’s buddy Dershowitz spend the first part of his presentation explaining why his position had shifted since Clinton’s impeachment when he said commission of a crime was not necessary. He proceeded making a new assertion basically nothing is impeachable . Both these theories conflict with what he had said last weekend on the shows which was that “criminal type behavior “ Was needed whatever the hell that is.
On further inspection Monday was not good for Republicans or Trump

[RiverDog]

The poll shows what most show , a bit over half the country favoring removal. But the situation is in flux as well over 70% of voters want witnesses .i don’t see how it hurts Democrats politically at all and regardless I felt impeachment was the right thing to do. Secret ballots would take politics out of it and the correct outcome would be realized.

If the situation is in flux, it hasn't showed up in the polls for the past 4 months. You'd see more movement if you polled NFL fans and asked them who their favorite team was. The process isn't helping Biden and it's keeping Warren, Sanders, and Klobaucher from campaigning during the critical early primaries, so about the only Dem that stands to gain is Buttigieg. The biggest beneficiary of this impeachment process is Donald Trump.

Your proposal for secret balloting is not only never going to happen, it's against every principle of representative government that I've ever heard of. It sounds like the Star Chamber. And by the way, we know how jurors vote in all criminal trials that result in a conviction as it requires a unanimous decision, so please dispense with your argument that impeachment is the only trial where the jurors votes are public knowledge.

[RiverDog]

The Bolton revelations has produced some cracks in the Republican Senator's strategy to conclude the trial ASAP. Although Romney is so far the only R Senator to advocate calling witnesses, there's been comments made even by staunch supporters like Lindsey Graham that indicate a willingness to hear from Bolton. IMO it's going to happen, and we should hear them announce a decision shortly, perhaps later today.

From a purely historical perspective, it's important to get Bolton on the stand and have him swear under oath about his allegations. If, as expected, his book, set to be released in March, describes the events as a quid pro quo, then there will be legitimate criticism that he's saying that just to sell books. Getting him on a witness stand and under the penalty of perjury raises the credibility of his accusations.

If the Republicans refuse to hear Bolton's testimony, then when his book comes out in March it's going to hurt a number of Senators that are up for re-election in November as they'd be subjected to accusations of knowingly participating in a cover up. That's why the R's are so pissed with the White House as they've kept them in the dark regarding Bolton's allegations which they've known about for some time. They're placed between a rock and a hard spot as they want to conclude the trial ASAP because of the damage it could do to them in November but the prospect of calling Bolton, and likely Hunter Biden in an attempt to counter the effect Bolton's testimony would have, it's going to stretch it out some more.

[Hawktawk]

The Bolton revelations has produced some cracks in the Republican Senator's strategy to conclude the trial ASAP. Although Romney is so far the only R Senator to advocate calling witnesses, there's been comments made even by staunch supporters like Lindsey Graham that indicate a willingness to hear from Bolton. IMO it's going to happen, and we should hear them announce a decision shortly, perhaps later today.

From a purely historical perspective, it's important to get Bolton on the stand and have him swear under oath about his allegations. If, as expected, his book, set to be released in March, describes the events as a quid pro quo, then there will be legitimate criticism that he's saying that just to sell books. Getting him on a witness stand and under the penalty of perjury raises the credibility of his accusations.

If the Republicans refuse to hear Bolton's testimony, then when his book comes out in March it's going to hurt a number of Senators that are up for re-election in November as they'd be subjected to accusations of knowingly participating in a cover up. That's why the R's are so pissed with the White House as they've kept them in the dark regarding Bolton's allegations which they've known about for some time. They're placed between a rock and a hard spot as they want to conclude the trial ASAP because of the damage it could do to them in November but the prospect of calling Bolton, and likely Hunter Biden in an attempt to counter the effect Bolton's testimony would have, it's going to stretch it out some more.

A poll released yesterday claims 75%!!!! of the public favors witnesses. As of last night Moscow Mitch said he doesn't currently have the votes to block witnesses. Lots of pundits think hes playing Okey Doke and feels he can get them. Down ballot republicans are already getting crushed in fundraising. Vulnerable Senators like Ernst, Gardner, McSally, Thillis, Collins, are all underwater. Honestly some of them are dead men/women walking whatever they do. I would have thought that at least in that instance they would have wanted to be on the right side of history. Ron Johnson has said he'd like to hear from Bolton setting off a sh1tst@rm in the party, then hurriedly clarified his remarks to mean in a televised interview, not in the trial.

Graham is even more cryptic and repulsive, calling it a sham process, warning that if the Dems get Bolton he's going to call an unlimited stream of witnesses. He also suggested a TV interview for Bolton, the new talking points.You dont have to go back 20 years to make Graham look like the Fing sleazebag he is. Go back 2 years, hell 2 months when he said "if a quid pro quo was proven it would be a real problem" It's so transparent, if Boltons not under oath but on TV the withering assault on his character including Rand Paul flat out saying he's lying to sell a book will be able to continue without rebuttal. I liked John Kelley yesterday saying" if John wrote that in his book I believe John. He's an honest guy who always told the President the unvarnished truth".
Release the notes and have Bolton testify is the fair process. Then if these senators want to either say Bolton is a liar or the crime doesn't warrant removal they can but they really look bad to most of the country right now. I think if they try to make it a circus calling Hunter biden I dont think the public will be amused nor will centrist republic senators.

As for whether this help or hurts Biden we will know soon enough.

As for impeachment Its just my theory, my solution to make impeachment a deterrent to a despotic president. Gotta go secret ballot. No juror in a trial has the accused in the room during deliberations. None is allowed to be intimidated. None is threatened with loss of employment for doing their civic duty.
This process of impeachment is stupid, period. It doesn't work in a 50-50 society. Several things need to change and secret ballots are one of them. With the need for 67 senators its still unlikely a president would be removed. Its just a wish, I'm not willing to say a president can do whatever the hell he wants and every 4 years we can replace or maybe not replace him depending on some racist people or someone who loves their 401 K or whatever. wants to KAGA
Politics needs taken out of the law enforcement process regarding the POTUS. This doesn't work anymore Its not OK.


I know it won't change, no president will ever sign off on a power reduction and quite the opposite, when Trump survives this impeachment all fetters are off presidential misconduct permanently.

[RiverDog]

There's also a story that came out that Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein is thinking of voting for acquittal.

I wouldn't be hanging my hat on the numbers that favor witnesses. They are simply expressing their desire to have a fair trial. It doesn't necessarily mean that they support removal from office, at least not at this point.

The R Senators have been put in a box, and they have the White House to thank for it. With the kinds of numbers that you cited, if they don't at least call Bolton to testify, it would be a slam dunk that a number of them in purple states that are up for re-election, like Collins from Maine, Gardner from Colorado, etc, are going to lose and that the R's will be completely out of power in the Legislative Branch, and if that moonbat Bernie Sanders gets elected to the White House, there could be a huge shift in the political landscape.

[I-5]

Dershowitz is a real piece of work. The sheer audacity to claim that anything in the name of politics is within bounds of the office of the president:

(Dershowitz) argued on the Senate floor Wednesday that a politician trying to win reelection is acting in the national interest, and therefore a quid pro quo aimed at boosting reelection chances cannot be impeachable....he argued that Trump cannot be impeached for pressuring Ukraine for investigations into former Vice President Joe Biden because doing so would be aimed at helping his reelection chances. Dershowitz said Trump's motivations would ultimately be fueled by the public interest because he believes his reelection is what's best for the country."Every public official that I know believes that his election is in the public interest," Dershowitz said. "And mostly you're right. Your election is in the public interest."

Are we that dumb to buy this logic?

[RiverDog]

Dershowitz is a real piece of work. The sheer audacity to claim that anything in the name of politics is within bounds of the office of the president:

(Dershowitz) argued on the Senate floor Wednesday that a politician trying to win reelection is acting in the national interest, and therefore a quid pro quo aimed at boosting reelection chances cannot be impeachable....he argued that Trump cannot be impeached for pressuring Ukraine for investigations into former Vice President Joe Biden because doing so would be aimed at helping his reelection chances. Dershowitz said Trump's motivations would ultimately be fueled by the public interest because he believes his reelection is what's best for the country."Every public official that I know believes that his election is in the public interest," Dershowitz said. "And mostly you're right. Your election is in the public interest."

Are we that dumb to buy this logic?

That was almost the exact same logic Richard Nixon used when he dismissed Attorney General Elliot Richardson for refusing to fire Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox. Nixon told Richardson that it was unfortunate that Richardson placed his own interests above that of the nation's, the implication being that Nixon's personal defense was in the national interest, to which Richardson replied "Mr. President, we seem to have a difference of opinion as to what the national interests are".

History repeating itself.

[I-5]

That was almost the exact same logic Richard Nixon used when he dismissed Attorney General Elliot Richardson for refusing to fire Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox. Nixon told Richardson that it was unfortunate that Richardson placed his own interests above that of the nation's, the implication being that Nixon's personal defense was in the national interest, to which Richardson replied "Mr. President, we seem to have a difference of opinion as to what the national interests are".

Exactly right. Maybe Dershowitz is trying to say that Trump's political fortunes are 'really interesting'....however, that doesn't mean they're in 'the national interest'. What a joke.

[Hawktawk]

Naw it’s a bit beyond history repeating itself . Epstein’s pedophile defender said he was speaking in a “non partisan” capacity. He made arguments such as abuse of power not being grounds for removal , a contradiction from over the weekend on the tv shows when he said “criminal type conduct “ was required .

Now this . Nowhere in the Nixon saga do I recall anyone suggest that roughing up and trying to bribe a foreign ally to get them to investigate the other party was ok. Dershowitz has destroyed any fig leaf of credibility he’s ever had: he will go to his grave a laughingstock along with Ken Starr who looked even more phony, dishonesties , ridiculous. I mean Starr bemoaning the age of impeachment , impeachment is war , it’s hell, so hard on the country . “Some of you were here then and lived through it as did I”. These scumbags . I hear how hard this is on the American people , not in the countries interest. This nation wound not lose a beat if they tased his fat ass and drug him out of the white House. 55% would be happy.

Trump in jail is in America’s best interests . Winning in Nov is in Trumps best interest as he might well be the first president arrested after he leaves office if he loses .

[RiverDog]

That was almost the exact same logic Richard Nixon used when he dismissed Attorney General Elliot Richardson for refusing to fire Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox. Nixon told Richardson that it was unfortunate that Richardson placed his own interests above that of the nation's, the implication being that Nixon's personal defense was in the national interest, to which Richardson replied "Mr. President, we seem to have a difference of opinion as to what the national interests are".

Exactly right. Maybe Dershowitz is trying to say that Trump's political fortunes are 'really interesting'....however, that doesn't mean they're in 'the national interest'. What a joke.

I was just watching Idahawk's favorite Fox News. Even Dershowitz's own team is backing away from those comments. Up until then, he had a pretty decent argument, saying that the founders intended "high crimes" to be equal to treason and bribery. If he would have qualified it by saying this particular abuse of power doesn't equal treason or bribery he wouldn't have sounded so foolish. The old man doesn't know when to stop talking.

[RiverDog]

Trump in jail is in America’s best interests . Winning in Nov is in Trumps best interest as he might well be the first president arrested after he leaves office if he loses .

Now that I disagree with, completely. The first thing a President Biden or President Sanders should do would be to pardon Trump of any and all crimes he may have committed while in office and use it as a peace offering to start healing the country. Prosecuting Trump would be like waving a red flag in front of the bull and inspire his supporters to revolt, perhaps violently. Jailing him would serve no practical purpose and would be a huge black eye on our history, make us look like a banana republic.

The left wants blood. I simply want him out of office. Call off the jackals and let him go spend his remaining years on the golf course.

[Hawktawk]

Trump in jail is in America’s best interests . Winning in Nov is in Trumps best interest as he might well be the first president arrested after he leaves office if he loses .

Now that I disagree with, completely. The first thing a President Biden or President Sanders should do would be to pardon Trump of any and all crimes he may have committed while in office and use it as a peace offering to start healing the country. Prosecuting Trump would be like waving a red flag in front of the bull and inspire his supporters to revolt, perhaps violently. Jailing him would serve no practical purpose and would be a huge black eye on our history, make us look like a banana republic.

The left wants blood. I simply want him out of office. Call off the jackals and let him go spend his remaining years on the golf course.

I'm not the left and I want blood. As this Ukrainian scandal was still gaining steam with bombshells from Bolton and Lev Parnas on Friday the senate voted against witnesses making this the first impeachment in the history of the united states Senate of any public official not to feature witnesses and documents. Bolton had written of a MAY!!! meeting with Pompeii and Mulvaney among 9 attendees where Trump asked Bolton to call Zelenski and tell him to meet personal attorney Rudy Giuliani to discuss investigations of democrats. Parnas released a letter to the Senate offering that he has testimony backed up with recordings, relevant electronic communications and contemporaneous notes that is relevant to the investigation .
But oh hell no, nothing to see here. Murkowski was despicable, posing as a likely yes vote on witnesses for a week and suddenly flopping not only to a no vote but slamming the democrats calling the process rushed and flawed. Lamar Alexander took a different tack, saying there was no reason for witnesses because the Democrats had made their case beyond a doubt. He said the president had "acted inappropriately but it wasn't enough to warrant his removal "quite a distance there" .

So Ill interpret what Alexander said" he did it and what he did was try to extort a public statement from a foreign ally to help himself politically using tax dollars and a presidential visit but that isn't grounds for removal!!!! soliciting foreign interference in our election for the second time in 4 years isn't impeachable!!!Not even close" let the voters(and Vlad Putin I guess ) decide. The disconnect of people who say let the people decide about an election involving a 2 time election cheater is staggering.

Then there's littler Marco who said "assuming all the charges are true and it's an impeachable conduct its still not worth removing him as president." in explaining his vote against additional testimony and his vote to acquit a guy he believes committed impeachable offenses. These legal arguments will be used until the end of time to justify any president doing whatever he pleases.

As I see it there will never be another president impeached, never one removed, the power of the executive branch is at despotic levels. And would someone explain where the guardrails are going forward in the short term? What will stop this president from doing whatever illegal thing he pleases to benefit him politically between now and november? what fetters will be on him in a potential second term as he concentrates on lining his pockets with money from foreigners eager to find favor with him? What impediment lies in front of future presidents who commit misconduct?
The constitutional checks and balances on an out of control chief executive are completely gone in the age of Trump...It is he and the complicit bobbleheads in the senate that are on the wrong side of history till the end of time.

[RiverDog]

So once Trump leaves office whether it be next January or in January 20205, what good can possibly be gained, other than satisfying your lust for revenge, by putting Donald Trump in jail? Is your ego so fragile that you require some sort of personal vindication that you were right about him?

All prosecuting Trump would achieve would be to keep him in in the center stage of a never ending debate as any attempt to prosecute him would sure to take years and would provide his followers with a martyr. We need to get over this current situation where we have two sides that are frothing at the mouth at the mere sight of each other and move on.

One of the best things any President did was Gerald Ford's sacrificing his chances of being elected by pardoning Richard Nixon. I was furious at the time, thinking we were creating a double standard for justice as a number of his subordinates spent significant time behind bars for doing his bidding, but later came to realize that it was absolutely the right thing to do. Had Ford not pardoned Nixon, it would have been nothing but a continuous circus.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="RiverDog"]So once Trump leaves office whether it be next January or in January 20205, what good can possibly be gained, other than satisfying your lust for revenge, by putting Donald Trump in jail? Is your ego so fragile that you require some sort of personal vindication that you were right about him?

Trump has committed crimes in and out of office. His lockdown strategy on all witnesses and documents is as much to shield himself from incriminating evidence of business fraud such as manipulating balance sheets for tax and insurance purposes as well as to obtain loans. Also it is alleged he's been involved with laundering money, another investigation being blocked by the WH. Whatever you think SDNY has several ongoing investigations as does NY state AG who Barr cannot touch. The guy ought to be in jail already for his obstruction and perjury during the Russian investigation.
Will it happen? NO
How it makes my ego fragile to demand a president be treated to the same type of law enforcement punishment as everyone else is a mystery.

My ego is fine. I was absolutely right about Trump who I rejected long before he became president, more right than I ever thought I would be or hoped to be.

I just dont know what would cause any president to be jailed? where do we draw the line? Nowhere apparently

[RiverDog]

I just dont know what would cause any president to be jailed? where do we draw the line? Nowhere apparently

We draw the line with this President and any non violent crimes he may have committed while in office. The same argument you are using now was used by many when Ford pardoned Nixon. President Biden or President Sanders would not be breaking any new ground if they were to issue a pardon to Trump.

I not only want Trump not only out of office, but I want him out of sight and out of the news. I don't want him to remain as a martyr for the far right. The quicker we can forget about the POS the quicker we can start narrowing the divide that he helped create.

[Aseahawkfan]

Now that the farce trial and impeachment is almost over, we can get back to the election. After all of this If Trump is re-elected, that will be unreal. If Trump wins re-election, it means the right and left really hate and distrust each other on a level I'm not sure I've seen in my lifetime. What Republican at this point can't see Trump's a stupid prick who treats The White House like his personal business. Now I hope we don't get some extremist loon as president like Bernie Sanders or Warren that derails the economy. A nice safe Biden presidency is the best I can hope for at this point. That guy says so many dumb things and has so many chinks in the armor, not sure if he can beat Trump if he's allowed to talk.

[Aseahawkfan]

Dershowitz is a real piece of work. The sheer audacity to claim that anything in the name of politics is within bounds of the office of the president:

(Dershowitz) argued on the Senate floor Wednesday that a politician trying to win reelection is acting in the national interest, and therefore a quid pro quo aimed at boosting reelection chances cannot be impeachable....he argued that Trump cannot be impeached for pressuring Ukraine for investigations into former Vice President Joe Biden because doing so would be aimed at helping his reelection chances. Dershowitz said Trump's motivations would ultimately be fueled by the public interest because he believes his reelection is what's best for the country."Every public official that I know believes that his election is in the public interest," Dershowitz said. "And mostly you're right. Your election is in the public interest."

Are we that dumb to buy this logic?

We've bought dumber, so yes, you are expected to buy that logic.

Remember, we're the nation that went to war in Iraq because of WMDs they didn't have against a nation of 20 to 30 million people with no substantial navy or ability to attack or invade us. So yeah, he expects you, at least if you're a Trump supporter, to buy that logic. Providing a good argument for Trump haters is irrelevant, providing a good argument for Trump supporters is all they need to do.

[RiverDog]

Now that the farce trial and impeachment is almost over, we can get back to the election. After all of this If Trump is re-elected, that will be unreal. If Trump wins re-election, it means the right and left really hate and distrust each other on a level I'm not sure I've seen in my lifetime. What Republican at this point can't see Trump's a stupid prick who treats The White House like his personal business. Now I hope we don't get some extremist loon as president like Bernie Sanders or Warren that derails the economy. A nice safe Biden presidency is the best I can hope for at this point. That guy says so many dumb things and has so many chinks in the armor, not sure if he can beat Trump if he's allowed to talk.

Agreed. Unless Bloomberg can make some noise on Super Tuesday, I'm afraid all the Dems are going to give us is a Sanders/Warren extremist or an idiot in Joe Biden that is almost as much of a bumbling Goober as Trump is minus the racist, narcissistic behavior. It's really sad as to the choices we're being given nowadays. I wish the parties would go back to selecting candidates via smoke filled rooms rather than the primary process.

On a side note, did you see how that vindictive b**** Hillary Clinton ripped into Bernie Sanders? WTF has gotten into that woman? Does she want another 4 years of Trump? No wonder the Dems lost the 2016 election.

[RiverDog]

We've bought dumber, so yes, you are expected to buy that logic.

Remember, we're the nation that went to war in Iraq because of WMDs they didn't have against a nation of 20 to 30 million people with no substantial navy or ability to attack or invade us. So yeah, he expects you, at least if you're a Trump supporter, to buy that logic. Providing a good argument for Trump haters is irrelevant, providing a good argument for Trump supporters is all they need to do.

Although I supported the Iraq war in 2003, I admit that it was a mistake.

But I do not agree that the only time we should ever go to war is if a country has the capability to attack or invade us. There are a lot of things that a hostile nation can do to us without invading or attacking us directly or militarily that would justify going to war with them.

[Aseahawkfan]

Although I supported the Iraq war in 2003, I admit that it was a mistake.

But I do not agree that the only time we should ever go to war is if a country has the capability to attack or invade us. There are a lot of things that a hostile nation can do to us without invading or attacking us directly or militarily that would justify going to war with them.

We no longer have the will of the people to sell America through war as we did before. Too many leftists sell our brand of Americanism as bad, even though the results in the nations we interfere in is generally worse when we do not run them. If we can't govern the nation as we have done in places like Japan and Germany, then there is little point in going to war in foreign nations unless they are a real threat to us. All it does is destabilize these nations and put them in a place where we're sending scum financial aid for the illusion of Democracy that is in reality a dictatorship.

And what can they do? A terrorist attack? Terrorist attacks are done by non-state actors to create plausible deniability. You can see this in the fact that 9/11 was more influenced by Saudi Arabia than Afghanistan, and Iraq had zero to do with 9/11. Yet we went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq for agendas other than terrorist attacks.

It doesn't matter what you support or don't support at this point. Iraq is not a matter of what side you're on, it is more proof that we get manipulated by the government and have little choice in the actions our government takes. The Democrats and Republicans behind the scenes do more work together than apart. They both wanted that war or at least powerful people within those circles.

I don't think you could be faulted for supporting that war. I certainly did not support it for the reasons stated at the time like WMDs and they were a threat to our freedom. I looked at the map and the history and knew we were going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan because a lot of agendas were being served:

1. Prison beating to let other nations know that terrorist attacks hit our nation, we will not sit idle. Sent a clear message to Middle Eastern leadership to control their radicals better.

2. Iran Containment: Now Iran is surrounded by nations with ties to the United States. If we need to do something, then we can funnel money to the right people for place to launch a war from. This idea that we need some vote or the confidence of the people in either nation shows how little Americans understand these places and how they run. You need to back and know the right people, not have some kind vote.

3. Oil Control: No more oil problems from Iraq. It's easier to isolate Iran for sanctions with Iraq oil flowing freely.

4. Remove a leader that is no longer valuable to the United States and sore in our side.

So if you look at it from the perspective of foreign policy in D.C., the Iraq War was a success. Leftist anti-war rubes don't realize the agenda or what was being done, so they make it seem like it wasn't a good idea. Smart students of foreign policy see the powerful moves made and the long-term play that has led to a further containment of Iran and the ongoing control and stabilization of the Middle East. You can bet money our people in D.C. knew that removing Saddam would create a power vacuum. They knew it wouldn't be fixed overnight. You can also bet money they don't play a short-term game like most Americans. They plan by decades or longer. Right now they are pleased with the outcome of The Iraq War. Many of their goals were accomplished and continue to be furthered as they rebuild stability in the Middle East. So don't feel bad about The Iraq War at all. It was a huge success. You will see that even more in the next 10 to 15 years if you're still kicking.

[RiverDog]

We no longer have the will of the people to sell America through war as we did before. Too many leftists sell our brand of Americanism as bad, even though the results in the nations we interfere in is generally worse when we do not run them. If we can't govern the nation as we have done in places like Japan and Germany, then there is little point in going to war in foreign nations unless they are a real threat to us. All it does is destabilize these nations and put them in a place where we're sending scum financial aid for the illusion of Democracy that is in reality a dictatorship.

You're talking about rebuilding after the war, or nation building. I'm talking about war, period. They are two separate things. Also, I'm not necessarily talking about unlimited, unconditional surrender war as it was with Germany and Japan where we blow them to smithereens. There's also the possibility of conducting a war with one very limited objective in mind, surrendering certain territory or giving in on one particular point, as it was in the first Gulf War. It doesn't even necessarily require boots on the ground or the occupation of territory.

[Hawktawk]

Now that the farce trial and impeachment is almost over, we can get back to the election. After all of this If Trump is re-elected, that will be unreal. If Trump wins re-election, it means the right and left really hate and distrust each other on a level I'm not sure I've seen in my lifetime. What Republican at this point can't see Trump's a stupid prick who treats The White House like his personal business. Now I hope we don't get some extremist loon as president like Bernie Sanders or Warren that derails the economy. A nice safe Biden presidency is the best I can hope for at this point. That guy says so many dumb things and has so many chinks in the armor, not sure if he can beat Trump if he's allowed to talk.

For once I can agree with most of this other than the stuff about Bidens dumb comments. Trump inoculates Biden against the word salad accusations. He says more stupid stuff on camera than any politician in my memory, making campaign ads against this guy is going to be child's play. His disjointed largely untrue ramblings may fly on Fox news or his rallies but I think after 4 years of people seeing the daily Jerry Springer show antics his onstage debate personna is going to not play nearly as well this time around.

I'm completely in agreement about Sanders.He will be a disaster one way or another . Warren is toast. Sanders will likely give us another 4 years of an unfettered Trump but if he wins he's reportedly already got a laundry list of executive orders prepared to implement his socialist agenda day one. I wont like most of them Im sure but I will get a bit of satisfaction watching the Republicans moan and whine when Bernie acts like Trump has proven any president can get away with acting.And that is the bottom line in all of this, what R Senators have given away to the executive branch to stay employed.It will bite both parties in the arse forever when they are out of power.

[Hawktawk]

Agreed. Unless Bloomberg can make some noise on Super Tuesday, I'm afraid all the Dems are going to give us is a Sanders/Warren extremist or an idiot in Joe Biden that is almost as much of a bumbling Goober as Trump is minus the racist, narcissistic behavior. It's really sad as to the choices we're being given nowadays. I wish the parties would go back to selecting candidates via smoke filled rooms rather than the primary process.

On a side note, did you see how that vindictive b**** Hillary Clinton ripped into Bernie Sanders? WTF has gotten into that woman? Does she want another 4 years of Trump? No wonder the Dems lost the 2016 election.

Bloomberg pretty much understands its almost impossible for him to win the nomination outright. His long game is to make it impossible for anyone to be nominated and possibly be voted in at a brokered convention. He will be in the debates going forward.
As for Hillary she's right about Sanders. In decades in the senate hes sponsored almost no legislation that became law. He has no real following in the congress. He is an avowed socialist, far left of even the Dem mainstream. His primary support is people under 40,especially people 18-30 with all his giveaways but it will not fly in a general election. And the age group who supports him has the worst record of showing up to vote.

And if he should win I dont see it as good for America although Ill accept him over what's going on now.Everybody needs to take the kid gloves off and go at this guy and hope his base still shows up in november to vote for someone else. If the Bernie crowd pulls the same stuff they did on Hillary and dont show up then the party gets another 4 years in the minority. Assuming the world survives it losing in Nov this cycle might be the best thing that ever happened to the Democrats.

[RiverDog]

Bloomberg pretty much understands its almost impossible for him to win the nomination outright. His long game is to make it impossible for anyone to be nominated and possibly be voted in at a brokered convention. He will be in the debates going forward.

Agreed.

As for Hillary she's right about Sanders. In decades in the senate hes sponsored almost no legislation that became law. He has no real following in the congress. He is an avowed socialist, far left of even the Dem mainstream. His primary support is people under 40,especially people 18-30 with all his giveaways but it will not fly in a general election. And the age group who supports him has the worst record of showing up to vote.

And if he should win I dont see it as good for America although Ill accept him over what's going on now.Everybody needs to take the kid gloves off and go at this guy and hope his base still shows up in november to vote for someone else. If the Bernie crowd pulls the same stuff they did on Hillary and dont show up then the party gets another 4 years in the minority. Assuming the world survives it losing in Nov this cycle might be the best thing that ever happened to the Democrats.

Oh, I didn't say that she was wrong about him. But she doesn't need to be running her cake hole about it as all she's doing is giving Trump and his allies more ammunition for November. It was only a few months ago when she smeared Tulsi Gabbard as being a Russian asset. I honestly wonder what that woman's motivations are other than pure sour grapes for having lost what should have been an easy election.

[Hawktawk]

Oh, I didn't say that she was wrong about him. But she doesn't need to be running her cake hole about it as all she's doing is giving Trump and his allies more ammunition for November. It was only a few months ago when she smeared Tulsi Gabbard as being a Russian asset. I honestly wonder what that woman's motivations are other than pure sour grapes for having lost what should have been an easy election.

Hillary is just a generally unlikeable unpleasant person, much as she projects on Sanders.She will surely help him with the base and the Rs couldn't hate him worse. She was part of the perfect storm, a dreadfully unpopular, overconfident and lazy candidate coronated by a party that screwed Bernie Sanders alienating his base. Then throw in Vlad Putin and his henchmen along with wikileaks. The calculus of their effect on an election where he lost the popular vote by around 4 million and threaded the needle winning several rust belt states by a total of 70K votes is not knowable, particularly the collusion of releasing emails an Hr after access hollywood etc. 2 words James Comey.
Hence Trump, the blight that will not be erased from the Presidency.

Last cycle the American people in ealy states especially boosted Trump in a huge field of candidates and by the time cooler heads tried to prevail it was too late. The Democrat party is waking up to that reality right now with Bernie Sanders.Fortunately the first votes are cast until tonight as opposed to being several states in before the Rs sounded the alarm too late. There are whispers Kerry might jump in and he was caught saying Bernie is "taking down the party". Bernie's fanatics on the left are as radical and blinded by a cult of personality as trumps on the right. Those of us in the center right or left are screwed if this is the choice in november

[RiverDog]

Hillary is just a generally unlikeable unpleasant person, much as she projects on Sanders.She will surely help him with the base and the Rs couldn't hate him worse. She was part of the perfect storm, a dreadfully unpopular, overconfident and lazy candidate coronated by a party that screwed Bernie Sanders alienating his base.

Agreed. When it comes to Hillary, I have to admit to a bias that has nothing to do with politics. Her marriage with her husband was nothing but a business relationship between two people with common professional goals. Any self respecting woman would have thrown that pervert husband of hers out on his ear for his many repeated adulterous skirt chasing episodes, but she made a calculated political estimation that she could derive more benefit from playing the poor female victim of male abuse that decided to "stand by her man" than she could have had she divorced him. The woman is a snake, and was in the middle of nearly every one of Slick Willy's many scandals except the one she should have prevented, Monicagate.

Last cycle the American people in ealy states especially boosted Trump in a huge field of candidates and by the time cooler heads tried to prevail it was too late. The Democrat party is waking up to that reality right now with Bernie Sanders.Fortunately the first votes are cast until tonight as opposed to being several states in before the Rs sounded the alarm too late. There are whispers Kerry might jump in and he was caught saying Bernie is "taking down the party". Bernie's fanatics on the left are as radical and blinded by a cult of personality as trumps on the right. Those of us in the center right or left are screwed if this is the choice in november

Trump's appeal is much deeper than anything I ever thought it was. My biggest political miscalculation of my life came in 2016 when I didn't give him a snowball's chance in hell of winning the nomination, let alone the presidency. But now, seeing all the stuff on social media and other venues, I've come to realize that the nation is a lot different than I imagined it being 4 years ago.

Bernie isn't a Democrat, he's an independent, and a lot of Dems won't support him because of that. He also doesn't do well with black voters, at least not as well as Biden does. One of Hillary's problems in 2016 is that black voters stayed home.

[Hawktawk]

As for Sham marriages Melania is worse than HRC. HRC stayed for political reasons , Melania reportedly sleeps on a different floor of the White House and stays for the money and celebrity . Without DT she would be another aging model .

I was screaming bloody murder about Trump almost immediately . I was stunned by his appeal. A simple check of his past revealed who he was, a nasty unpleasant dishonest grifter , a bankruptcy acrobat with shady finances .

It’s a sad commentary on America how much support he still has . Most of my family and friends are in the cult

[RiverDog]

As for Sham marriages Melania is worse than HRC. HRC stayed for political reasons , Melania reportedly sleeps on a different floor of the White House and stays for the money and celebrity . Without DT she would be another aging model .

I was screaming bloody murder about Trump almost immediately . I was stunned by his appeal. A simple check of his past revealed who he was, a nasty unpleasant dishonest grifter , a bankruptcy acrobat with shady finances .

It’s a sad commentary on America how much support he still has . Most of my family and friends are in the cult

I don't think it's worse than the Clinton's marriage due to the absence of any political ambitions on Melania's part, but I agree that Trump's marriage to her is a sham. As ASF calls it, she's Trump's trophy wife. But outside of her association with DJT, she's a very respectable and decent woman, quite unlike Hillary. And she sure as hell doesn't show her age. She's by far the most attractive First Lady since Jackie Kennedy.

Trump's appeal is hard for me to imagine, too. We humans have this subliminal tendency to think that the majority shares the same thoughts and emotions that we do, that we're the norm, not the exception.

[Aseahawkfan]

You're talking about rebuilding after the war, or nation building. I'm talking about war, period. They are two separate things. Also, I'm not necessarily talking about unlimited, unconditional surrender war as it was with Germany and Japan where we blow them to smithereens. There's also the possibility of conducting a war with one very limited objective in mind, surrendering certain territory or giving in on one particular point, as it was in the first Gulf War. It doesn't even necessarily require boots on the ground or the occupation of territory.

Then you got your wish. Iraq War 2 was done with an agenda in mind that is slowly coming to fruition. If they can topple the current regime in Iran, there are not a lot of obstacles to Middle Eastern stability as Iran is one of the primary sources of conflict in the MIddle East with their Shia vs. Sunni conflict and their stance on Israel. Iran, Syria, and a few of the smaller annoying places like Yemen are the last holdouts against an at least workable relationship with America.

So far it has been accomplished with very few boots on the ground following the war and one of the lowest casualty wars we've had in history given a decade or more in Iraq and Afghanistan. One thing no one much gives Cheney/Bush Jr./Rumsfeld much credit for is their ability to execute a war on two fronts with minimal casualties, strong effect, and putting the United States in a good long-term position to contain and defang Iran.

[Aseahawkfan]

For once I can agree with most of this other than the stuff about Bidens dumb comments. Trump inoculates Biden against the word salad accusations. He says more stupid stuff on camera than any politician in my memory, making campaign ads against this guy is going to be child's play. His disjointed largely untrue ramblings may fly on Fox news or his rallies but I think after 4 years of people seeing the daily Jerry Springer show antics his onstage debate personna is going to not play nearly as well this time around.

I'm completely in agreement about Sanders.He will be a disaster one way or another . Warren is toast. Sanders will likely give us another 4 years of an unfettered Trump but if he wins he's reportedly already got a laundry list of executive orders prepared to implement his socialist agenda day one. I wont like most of them Im sure but I will get a bit of satisfaction watching the Republicans moan and whine when Bernie acts like Trump has proven any president can get away with acting.And that is the bottom line in all of this, what R Senators have given away to the executive branch to stay employed.It will bite both parties in the arse forever when they are out of power.

It won't bite anyone in the ass. Presidents been doing it this way for ages. None of this is new. Obama had to use a ton of executive orders because the Republican Congress was blocking him like Dikembe Mutombo playing defense against an elementary school basketball team.

This is just the ever-changing world of politics. I don't count any of this as lasting forever or doing any permanent damage or a deep threat to the nation or any of that nonsense that people worry about without going, "Wait a minute. We've had way worse periods in American history. Like far and away worse like The Civil War, both World Wars, even the Vietnam Period, and so much else, and we're still here and kicking." This is all minor league crap. Just annoyances.

America runs like a machine at this point. You can have a narcissistic idiot as president who never reads a book while tweeting like a teenage girl and the nation will still run well and things will get taken care of. That's about all this period will prove. At this point we could elect The Invisible Man as president and we'd be ok.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't think it's worse than the Clinton's marriage due to the absence of any political ambitions on Melania's part, but I agree that Trump's marriage to her is a sham. As ASF calls it, she's Trump's trophy wife. But outside of her association with DJT, she's a very respectable and decent woman, quite unlike Hillary. And she sure as hell doesn't show her age. She's by far the most attractive First Lady since Jackie Kennedy.

Trump's appeal is hard for me to imagine, too. We humans have this subliminal tendency to think that the majority shares the same thoughts and emotions that we do, that we're the norm, not the exception.

I'm fairly certain they'll like divorce after Trump is out of office, then he'll get a new trophy wife and have another kid in his mid 70s to prove how much of a real man he is.

[RiverDog]

You're talking about rebuilding after the war, or nation building. I'm talking about war, period. They are two separate things. Also, I'm not necessarily talking about unlimited, unconditional surrender war as it was with Germany and Japan where we blow them to smithereens. There's also the possibility of conducting a war with one very limited objective in mind, surrendering certain territory or giving in on one particular point, as it was in the first Gulf War. It doesn't even necessarily require boots on the ground or the occupation of territory.

Then you got your wish. Iraq War 2 was done with an agenda in mind that is slowly coming to fruition. If they can topple the current regime in Iran, there are not a lot of obstacles to Middle Eastern stability as Iran is one of the primary sources of conflict in the MIddle East with their Shia vs. Sunni conflict and their stance on Israel. Iran, Syria, and a few of the smaller annoying places like Yemen are the last holdouts against an at least workable relationship with America.

So far it has been accomplished with very few boots on the ground following the war and one of the lowest casualty wars we've had in history given a decade or more in Iraq and Afghanistan. One thing no one much gives Cheney/Bush Jr./Rumsfeld much credit for is their ability to execute a war on two fronts with minimal casualties, strong effect, and putting the United States in a good long-term position to contain and defang Iran.

It wasn't necessarily my "wish", although I did support both wars, at least in the beginning. IMO based on 20/20 hindsight, I've concluded that the 2nd Gulf War was a mistake, and I blame our intelligence community as much as I do Bush 43.

I saw the other day where over the past decade, more veterans have committed suicide, 60,000, than all the combat deaths we suffered in Vietnam which lasted for roughly the same period of time, so if you were to take that fact into consideration, it would cause that casualty rate to increase somewhat. I'm not saying that all or even most of those deaths were war related, but it is a sobering fact.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/veteran-suicide

[Hawktawk]

Then you got your wish. Iraq War 2 was done with an agenda in mind that is slowly coming to fruition. If they can topple the current regime in Iran, there are not a lot of obstacles to Middle Eastern stability as Iran is one of the primary sources of conflict in the MIddle East with their Shia vs. Sunni conflict and their stance on Israel. Iran, Syria, and a few of the smaller annoying places like Yemen are the last holdouts against an at least workable relationship with America.

So far it has been accomplished with very few boots on the ground following the war and one of the lowest casualty wars we've had in history given a decade or more in Iraq and Afghanistan. One thing no one much gives Cheney/Bush Jr./Rumsfeld much credit for is their ability to execute a war on two fronts with minimal casualties, strong effect, and putting the United States in a good long-term position to contain and defang Iran.

[Hawktawk]

It won't bite anyone in the ass. Presidents been doing it this way for ages. None of this is new. Obama had to use a ton of executive orders because the Republican Congress was blocking him like Dikembe Mutombo playing defense against an elementary school basketball team.

This is just the ever-changing world of politics. I don't count any of this as lasting forever or doing any permanent damage or a deep threat to the nation or any of that nonsense that people worry about without going, "Wait a minute. We've had way worse periods in American history. Like far and away worse like The Civil War, both World Wars, even the Vietnam Period, and so much else, and we're still here and kicking." This is all minor league crap. Just annoyances.

America runs like a machine at this point. You can have a narcissistic idiot as president who never reads a book while tweeting like a teenage girl and the nation will still run well and things will get taken care of. That's about all this period will prove. At this point we could elect The Invisible Man as president and we'd be ok.

https://www.newsweek.com/gop-strategist ... te-1485558
I beg to differ....
This president is reportedly feeling totally unshackled to do whatever he wants. If any of this happens we are a banana republic with nukes. I would submit we will become one on Wednesday or whenever republican Senators acquit a man they know to be guilty of an impeachable, removal worthy offense. They will concede Dems made their case.They prove it with their own end game strategy of admitting he had committed "misconduct" to cover their ass in the eyes of history for gutting the system of checks and balances. They will just contend attempting to manipulate a foreign power to slime democrats a year out from an election is just a wrist slap offense. Never mind the call that generated the whistleblower complaint occurred one day after Muller testified to Trump's collusion and obstruction with Russia interfering in 2016. DINO Joe Manchin is suggesting a censure vote to give Senators with a guilty conscience or a purple base somewhere to bail to.

Even Joni Ernst, famous for calling for Obama to be impeached over executive orders said sunday it "was not something Id do, it should have gone through other channels" Marco Rubio Went much further calling the conduct impeachable but saying removing a president this close to an election would be too damaging to the country . IMO doing permanent damage to the constitution, basically greenlighting a despotic president to do whatever he or she wants for perhaps 5 more years is a way bigger problem.
They know it looks horrible which is why they are now trying to have it both ways. They know 75% of people wanted to hear from John Bolton but they also knew its dirtier than anyone really imagines and if they opened the pandora's box to Bolton etc and with a guy like Lev Parnas hanging around who knows where it ends so they pulled the ripcord.
Let the chips fall, Lets see how the voters feel in Nov.
as always I'd rather be wrong than right about such things but I fail to see how the age of Trump has done anything but damage and permanently change the office of the presidency.

And your 11 year economic expansion and equally long markey climb will not last forever asea, U know that better than I and with no hay in the barn in terms of stimulus it might get rough for a while. Then what have we surrendered forever for temporary financial gain although great? Will it have been worth it? Not to mention the market would likely jump 1000 points the day Pence was sworn in. It doesn't matter, the constitutional restraints on this president are going down the toilet tomorrow.

[RiverDog]

One option that's being proposed by moderate Dem Sen. Munchin (sp?) from West Virginia is to censure Trump. That option was talked about during the Clinton impeachment but was never seriously considered as it's relatively toothless. I'm not in favor of that idea, either, as all it would do would be to keep the issue on the front pages. IMO it would be better to let this impeachment thing die a silent death and get on with the campaign to defeat him in November.