The Impeachment Vote: The House has impeached

[c_hawkbob]

America runs like a machine at this point. You can have a narcissistic idiot as president who never reads a book while tweeting like a teenage girl and the nation will still run well and things will get taken care of. That's about all this period will prove. At this point we could elect The Invisible Man as president and we'd be ok.

And Nero fiddled as Rome burned.

Not saying you are Nero, but we as the American people in a system that is supposed to be by and for. Unbelievable the amount sh!tshow some people are willing to accept as "no big deal" ...

The DNC is as crooked as the repubs, we are in a truly sad political state right now. Worst in my lifetime by far.

[RiverDog]

The DNC is as crooked as the repubs, we are in a truly sad political state right now. Worst in my lifetime by far.

I'm more worried about the populace than I am the state of the two parties. Both sides not only want to win, but they want to completely destroy the other, hence the "Lock Her Up!" and Lock Him Up!" chants. There are more people than I realized from both sides of the political spectrum that you can't reason with and have a decent exchange of ideas with. I've had to unfollow a whole chit load of FB friends, some of them lifelong friends, due to their propensity to post political garbage.

That's been one of my differences with my friend Hawktalk: As much as I dislike Trump, I don't want to throw the sorry SOB in jail, I just want him out of office. Same with Hillary. She's nothing but a vindictive b**** that refuses to accept responsibility for her own failures but rather than pursuing her, I just want her to get out of my sight, make like Snagglepuss and exit, Stage Left.

[Aseahawkfan]

And Nero fiddled as Rome burned.

Not saying you are Nero, but we as the American people in a system that is supposed to be by and for. Unbelievable the amount sh!tshow some people are willing to accept as "no big deal" ...

The DNC is as crooked as the repubs, we are in a truly sad political state right now. Worst in my lifetime by far.

I don't accept it as "no big deal." Had a lot of people look at me funny for not being more up in arms about things. But after getting wound up when younger and watching over the years, I've come to the conclusion I'm a small fry in a very big world. I'm not one of the power players. I don't move the world. I watch it and study it so I have some idea of why something is occurring and am not falling for the media driven narrative that is often false. I cast my vote if I find a decent candidate or issue. If America seems to be running well enough for a majority to succeed and get at least some semblance of what they want out of life, then we're doing better than most of the world. This world is very imperfect and rough.

This is most assuredly not the way I would run the world. The nation the way it runs is not what I believe in, at least not a great deal of it. I know I'll never be the one deciding how things should run. Politics is an arena I never much want to enter as a candidate. You literally have to be the type of person in politics like we're seeing now: willing to back and interact in government and party actions you don't agree with or believe in and back very scummy people who have votes. You have to pander to wide and diverse groups of people wanting different things you have to satisfy to get votes, some of these people odious. There's a lot of money floating around driving politics as we've seen. Basically, all the crap about the noble ideas of our Constitution become lost in the muck of real world politics.

I don't see much point in pretending because I don't like the way someone is doing something the world is going to crumble, when I know for a fact we've dealt with far worse. There's no use making an already annoying person like Trump seem like a worse person comparable to Hitler or similar leaders. I see Trump for what he is: a rude, narcissistic rich salesman who somehow was able to retire to president by pandering to some of America's worst impulses and the right-left divide over things like immigration and leftist extremism.

I don't see America as burning or heading for a Civil War as some do. I see a fat, electronically addicted population that likes to see themselves as the lean, revolutionary farmers of The Revolutionary War, but they are nowhere close to that hardened group on either side. The leftists of today aren't as battle-hardened as the Communists of the past. They are a bunch of rowdy kids causing minor trouble and acting tough, yet once the rubber hits the road and their phones get shut off they would probably give up.

We live in an extremely comfortable world in America. I doubt anyone wants to seriously throw this nation into a state of extreme discomfort like a Civil War or serious economic downturn would do.

What am I supposed to do when you have a big, wealthy nation on cruise control? Engage in the culture of outrage for the "fun" of it? Not my cup of tea. I've come to accept that I'm a little guy having discussions with other people with little power over the state of the nation from the comfort of an American life. Just as worst things have passed, this Trump driven divisive period in our history will pass. Then the next culture war fueled by the likes of Fox News and CNBC will start up and we'll do it for more years with whoever happens to be in office, mostly on the Internet or TV from the comfort of our homes.

That's how it is at this point. Why should I try to make it seem worse by buying into nation ending disasters or Hitler-like conspiracy theories? I don't see the point of it.

[Hawktawk]

I don't accept it as "no big deal." Had a lot of people look at me funny for not being more up in arms about things. But after getting wound up when younger and watching over the years, I've come to the conclusion I'm a small fry in a very big world. I'm not one of the power players. I don't move the world. I watch it and study it so I have some idea of why something is occurring and am not falling for the media driven narrative that is often false. I cast my vote if I find a decent candidate or issue. If America seems to be running well enough for a majority to succeed and get at least some semblance of what they want out of life, then we're doing better than most of the world. This world is very imperfect and rough.

This is most assuredly not the way I would run the world. The nation the way it runs is not what I believe in, at least not a great deal of it. I know I'll never be the one deciding how things should run. Politics is an arena I never much want to enter as a candidate. You literally have to be the type of person in politics like we're seeing now: willing to back and interact in government and party actions you don't agree with or believe in and back very scummy people who have votes. You have to pander to wide and diverse groups of people wanting different things you have to satisfy to get votes, some of these people odious. There's a lot of money floating around driving politics as we've seen. Basically, all the crap about the noble ideas of our Constitution become lost in the muck of real world politics.

I don't see much point in pretending because I don't like the way someone is doing something the world is going to crumble, when I know for a fact we've dealt with far worse. There's no use making an already annoying person like Trump seem like a worse person comparable to Hitler or similar leaders. I see Trump for what he is: a rude, narcissistic rich salesman who somehow was able to retire to president by pandering to some of America's worst impulses and the right-left divide over things like immigration and leftist extremism.



I don't see America as burning or heading for a Civil War as some do. I see a fat, electronically addicted population that likes to see themselves as the lean, revolutionary farmers of The Revolutionary War, but they are nowhere close to that hardened group on either side. The leftists of today aren't as battle-hardened as the Communists of the past. They are a bunch of rowdy kids causing minor trouble and acting tough, yet once the rubber hits the road and their phones get shut off they would probably give up.

We live in an extremely comfortable world in America. I doubt anyone wants to seriously throw this nation into a state of extreme discomfort like a Civil War or serious economic downturn would do.

What am I supposed to do when you have a big, wealthy nation on cruise control? Engage in the culture of outrage for the "fun" of it? Not my cup of tea. I've come to accept that I'm a little guy having discussions with other people with little power over the state of the nation from the comfort of an American life. Just as worst things have passed, this Trump driven divisive period in our history will pass. Then the next culture war fueled by the likes of Fox News and CNBC will start up and we'll do it for more years with whoever happens to be in office, mostly on the Internet or TV from the comfort of our homes.

That's how it is at this point. Why should I try to make it seem worse by buying into nation ending disasters or Hitler-like conspiracy theories? I don't see the point of it.

I dont 100% agree with this^ but its pretty close. Well written asea

[Aseahawkfan]

Romney voting to convict. Interesting.

Romney wrote a very good explanation of his line of reasoning. Gotta give the man some props. He may position himself to run again if the Party doesn't hate him by the time this is over.

[RiverDog]

Romney voting to convict. Interesting.

Romney wrote a very good explanation of his line of reasoning. Gotta give the man some props. He may position himself to run again if the Party doesn't hate him by the time this is over.

Not a huge surprise. Romney as been a vocal critic of Trump since before he was nominated. He was also one of just two Republicans to vote to allow witnesses.

I agree with you about his line of reasoning, but I will add this: Whether an elected official should follow their conscious as Romney did or the will of their constituents like he apparently rejected is a choice that every elected official has to make, and it can vary from issue to issue. It's probably not wise to never give a rip what your constituents say yet it's not leadership if you always allow yourself to be spun like a weather vane in the direction of the political winds.

On this particular issue, I agree with Romney, and I admire his courage.

[c_hawkbob]

Romney is setting himself up to lead a "moral resurgence" of the Republican party post Trump.

[RiverDog]

Romney is setting himself up to lead a "moral resurgence" of the Republican party post Trump.

We'll see. Romney is getting a huge amount of blowback from nearly all Republicans, even within his own family as his niece, the chairwoman of the RNC, has come out against him and insists that Trump did nothing wrong. He's on an island right now.

The Republicans need a make over, someone very articulate and under 50 that can invigorate Gen X and millennial conservatives. Although he doesn't look it, Romney is 72 years old. The R's are considered by younger generations as being the "dumb" party, something that Trump has almost singlehandedly created and will take some time to erase. If Trump loses this November, I think Republicans are going to have to spend some time in the penalty box.

[RiverDog]

Did you guys see how Marco Rubio, R-Florida, explained his vote?

"Just because actions meet a standard of impeachment does not mean it is in the best interest of the country to remove a President from office."

That makes absolutely no sense. If that statement is true, then the corollary also has to be true: It is in the best interest of the country to allow a POTUS that has committed a "high crime" to remain in office. In other words, it's in the best interest for us to have a Constitutionally defined criminal occupy the highest office in the land.

Rubio is, or at least was, a viable candidate for POTUS in 2024. If he runs, that remark will come back to haunt him. Like I said, the Republicans are going to have to spend some time in the penalty box. The 2020's are shaping up to be the decade of the angry, wild eyed, frizzy haired liberal moonbats.

[I-5]

That makes absolutely no sense. If that statement is true, then the corollary also has to be true: It is in the best interest of the country to allow a POTUS that has committed a "high crime" to remain in office. In other words, it's in the best interest for us to have a Constitutionally defined criminal occupy the highest office in the land.

Unfortunately, it makes no less sense than Susan Collins explaining (on Fox News no less) that although what Trump did was improper, she predicted that Trump will 'learn' from this and not try do it again. So Fox host Martha MacCallum pressed her:

“So why do you have that feeling that he has changed, that he learned a lesson?” MacCallum asked. Collins smiled broadly as she replied, “Well, I may not be correct on that. It’s more aspirational on my part, it’s more that I hope that he’s listened to the many voices in the Senate who have pointed out that the call was very problematic.”

Unbelievable. As he's already shown, he'll use this as a springboard to much worse, since he thought the Ukraine call was 'perfect'.

[RiverDog]

Unfortunately, it makes no less sense than Susan Collins explaining (on Fox News no less) that although what Trump did was improper, she predicted that Trump will 'learn' from this and not try do it again. So Fox host Martha MacCallum pressed her:

“So why do you have that feeling that he has changed, that he learned a lesson?” MacCallum asked. Collins smiled broadly as she replied, “Well, I may not be correct on that. It’s more aspirational on my part, it’s more that I hope that he’s listened to the many voices in the Senate who have pointed out that the call was very problematic.”

Unbelievable. As he's already shown, he'll use this as a springboard to much worse, since he thought the Ukraine call was 'perfect'.

Nice to see you back, I-5. It's been getting pretty lonesome in here.

I can't understand what either one of them are doing. Collins gave a very eloquent and understandable explanation of her vote to confirm Justice Kavanaugh so this goofy reasoning seems really out of character for her. Both of them must have some really poor advisors on their staff if they're allowed to go in front of a microphone with those lame excuses. All they have to do is say something like that they believed what Trump did was wrong but that in their opinion it did not rise to the level of a "high crime" that required removal from office. Despite some of their blunders, like those given by Dershowitz, there was some very reasoned justifications given for acquittal by Trump's legal team. All they had to do is wrap their arms around one of them.

I guess Trump isn't the only one that goes before a microphone speaking from the seat of his pants.

[Aseahawkfan]

I can't believe anyone is attempting to apply reason to this entire situation from the beginning. Democrats and Republicans are both behaving like asses. The pretense of a civil, well-functioning government is not even being attempted. This is partisan warfare at it's worst. Come up with whatever excuses floats your boat at this point and it would be as good as any of these clowns could muster as to why all of this is happening.

Why does someone like Trump win in the first place? Because a bunch of pissed off voters sent him to give the Democrats a big old middle finger. So when Trump continues to give the Democrats and liberals the middle finger, why would they even attempt to reason it when they sent him to D.C. as to spit in the faces of Democrats and liberals. That's what he's doing. Mission accomplished.

The Democrats will do anything to fight back against him because they don't like having their faces spit in. So will the liberal media.

It's pretty easy to see. Applying logic to an act of anger is pointless.

Fact is the conservatives hate the liberals and probably vice versa at this point. Any use of reason is a pointless attempt to justify what is basically a bunch of angry people fighting each other in D.C.

[RiverDog]

I can't believe anyone is attempting to apply reason to this entire situation from the beginning. Democrats and Republicans are both behaving like asses. The pretense of a civil, well-functioning government is not even being attempted. This is partisan warfare at it's worst. Come up with whatever excuses floats your boat at this point and it would be as good as any of these clowns could muster as to why all of this is happening.

Why does someone like Trump win in the first place? Because a bunch of pissed off voters sent him to give the Democrats a big old middle finger. So when Trump continues to give the Democrats and liberals the middle finger, why would they even attempt to reason it when they sent him to D.C. as to spit in the faces of Democrats and liberals. That's what he's doing. Mission accomplished.

The Democrats will do anything to fight back against him because they don't like having their faces spit in. So will the liberal media.

It's pretty easy to see. Applying logic to an act of anger is pointless.

Fact is the conservatives hate the liberals and probably vice versa at this point. Any use of reason is a pointless attempt to justify what is basically a bunch of angry people fighting each other in D.C.

10-4. It's embarrassing how bad things have gotten. Although I didn't watch it live because I knew it was going to be a rambling, self aggrandizing speech filled with inaccuracies and half truths, the State of the Union address was a mockery. Trump refuses to shake hands with Pelosi and she responds by tearing up his speech. Is that what we want to teach our children and grandchildren? We criticize Tom Brady because he didn't seek out Nick Foles to shake his hand or complain about players for not being respectful of our flag.

People used to hate the "good ole boy" system of politics because it was almost exclusively comprised of rich white males with next to nothing in common with their constituents. But they were a lot more civil with each other, would argue during the day but have a drink with each other in the evening. Nowadays it's nothing but a food fight, and one side is just as bad as the other. I wouldn't go into politics for all the tea in China.

[Aseahawkfan]

If Trump wins the next election. holy crap he is going to be insufferably annoying in his attacks on the Democrats and liberals. At the start of this people were saying the Republican Party is the one that might be destroyed, if Trump wins re-election I think it is the Democratic Party that will need to re-invent themselves. A good percentage of people seem real tired of extremist liberalism as put forth by the left and places like Hollyweird.

[I-5]

Just curious ASF, what will be your conclusion if he loses convincingly?

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Just curious ASF, what will be your conclusion if he loses convincingly?

I know you asked ASF, I-5, but do you mean if Trump loses convincingly to an extreme left Democrat/liberal candidate or just loses convincingly period?

I only ask because Trump losing convincingly to an extreme left Democrat/liberal candidate scares me a heck of a lot more than Trump winning. Now him losing to a Democratic candidate that is closer to the center? I can get behind that.

I think the further to the left the Democratic party goes, the harder time they are going to have beating Trump.

[I-5]

I know you asked ASF, I-5, but do you mean if Trump loses convincingly to an extreme left Democrat/liberal candidate or just loses convincingly period?

I only ask because Trump losing convincingly to an extreme left Democrat/liberal candidate scares me a heck of a lot more than Trump winning. Now him losing to a Democratic candidate that is closer to the center? I can get behind that.

I think the further to the left the Democratic party goes, the harder time they are going to have beating Trump.

Hey Mack! Thanks for asking. I wasn't thinking of someone 'far left' like Sanders. For me personally, it would be someone more moderate like Klobuchar.

But I did mean more generally: what does it mean if Trump is acquitted by the Senate and convincingly defeated at the ballot box, regardless of the opponent?

[Aseahawkfan]

Just curious ASF, what will be your conclusion if he loses convincingly?

That enough American voters regained their senses and maybe want to see a government that isn't constantly fighting over stupid crap, at least publically. Right now the U.S. government is like a dysfunctional home where the parents are arguing, crazy grandma escaped the house and is sitting on the lawn in her underwear, and the children are running wild fighting each other and the place is loud and annoying eyesore for the neighborhood.

Unless Bernie wins, then I'll think extremist Liberals have gained a majority and plan to destroy the economy. I'll watch as the economy likely tanks with Bernie's attempts at socialism further pushing the government towards the bankruptcy it is already heading for. I personally feel Bernie or Warren would be terrible for this country and Americans voting for them won't find out until the mistake is made. Things gotta be paid for and you can't do it by taxing all your wealthy folk. That hasn't worked anywhere it has been tried, so they will pay more in taxes and pay more for everything as they bear the brunt of the tax needs for such ideas.

That's why this next election will be interesting. Do voters want to continue to spit on extremist Liberalism or keep things as they are by re-electing Trump? Did the Liberals finally do enough Trump bashing to galvanize their base into voting in a socialist like Bernie? Do voters want to hope to keep the economy on track, yet have a quieter, less combative government with someone like Biden? Or do they want to do something completely new like vote in Butgieg: the wildcard?

This is why I'm keeping my money on the sideline at the moment. I can't call any of this precisely. It's interesting to watch and see what people might be thinking. I know anecdotally speaking all the folks I know that like Trump like him because he spits on Democrats and Liberals and they hate those groups. I hear all the time how extremist Liberalism is ruining the country and Liberals want to sell us out, sell America out, and don't care about this country. They are supporting Trump for no other reason than to fight Liberalism. Some of them even admit Trump is not a good guy, but they say he's better than letting Liberalism take over.

We'll see if they still got enough venom in their fangs to keep Trump in office to fight the Liberals.

[Hawktawk]

If Trump wins the next election. holy crap he is going to be insufferably annoying in his attacks on the Democrats and liberals. At the start of this people were saying the Republican Party is the one that might be destroyed, if Trump wins re-election I think it is the Democratic Party that will need to re-invent themselves. A good percentage of people seem real tired of extremist liberalism as put forth by the left and places like Hollyweird.

Forget democrats and liberals. Start with Mitt Romney, a patriotic american who was willing to throw away his career rather than compromise his morals. There was no political upside and IMO his personal dislike of Trump which is nearly universal among legislators did not influence his decision . And the Trump result is predictable repeatedly hammering Romney at the national prayer breakfast for being a failed candidate, saying that "he hates when people use their religion as an excuse to do what's wrong". Donnie Jr went further calling for his expulsion from the party. Faux news was nearly universal in vilifying a man who has done more good in america by accident than trump ever will on purpose. Interestingly criticism of him from his republican colleagues has been very muted. They know he did what they would have had they had the stones.

Trump took a shot at nancy Pelosi Sitting 4 chairs away at the prayer breakfast saying he doesn't like people saying they pray for him when they dont even pray. He used vulgar language as all his bobbleheads and the Franklin grahams and Falwell's etc laughed. He whined about how he's been put through "hell' when he put america through this crime that even his own party said was wrong. A highly principled member of his party became the first man in history to break ranks. And yet he is totally belligerent and unapologetic.
The sheepish republicans saying hes "learned a lesson" are laughable.

He's a vile, vindictive despotic man, completely unburdened by any restraints whatever on his presidency however long it may last . Lt Colonel Vindman, american war hero, purple heart recipient was escorted off white house grounds by security along with his twin brother, also a decorated Iraq veteran whose crime was having the same last name as a guy who told the truth. This morning Trump is bashing "insubordinate" Vindman to the world on twitter.
Were Trump CEO of a major corporation he would have been suspended during this investigation , surely terminated and likely sued for this harassment and intimidation of a person testifying in a congressional inquiry.

Gordon Sondland was also recalled from his EU post as well. I'm sure he feels pretty good about the million dollars worth of chicken he dumped into Trump's inauguration now. .Comey, Bolton , McCabe Strozyk and Page etc better lawyer up because trump will try to put them in prison. Tell me what person employed in a future or current administration will ever step forward to report wrongdoing by the president,ever?

So get ready. NO pressure put on a foreign ally to influence the election will be challenged.MOF Bob Barr announced that any FBI investigation of a political campaign will go through him so get ready. No republican that crosses him will survive. No scheme to further enrich himself personally by bribing foreign nations will be off limits. And no future president will ever surrender these legal precedents that have been set here.
But hey MAGA

[RiverDog]

Forget democrats and liberals. Start with Mitt Romney, a patriotic american who was willing to throw away his career rather than compromise his morals.

Romney did not throw away his career. Utah is about as red as states get, Romney is a devout Mormon in a state comprised primarily of Mormons, is 68 years old, unlikely to run for the nomination post Trump, and isn't up for re-election until 2024. I, too, admire his actions, but let's not go overboard. It required very little political risk on his part, perhaps less than any other R Senator.

[Aseahawkfan]

Forget democrats and liberals. Start with Mitt Romney, a patriotic american who was willing to throw away his career rather than compromise his morals. There was no political upside and IMO his personal dislike of Trump which is nearly universal among legislators did not influence his decision . And the Trump result is predictable repeatedly hammering Romney at the national prayer breakfast for being a failed candidate, saying that "he hates when people use their religion as an excuse to do what's wrong". Donnie Jr went further calling for his expulsion from the party. Faux news was nearly universal in vilifying a man who has done more good in america by accident than trump ever will on purpose. Interestingly criticism of him from his republican colleagues has been very muted. They know he did what they would have had they had the stones.

Trump took a shot at nancy Pelosi Sitting 4 chairs away at the prayer breakfast saying he doesn't like people saying they pray for him when they dont even pray. He used vulgar language as all his bobbleheads and the Franklin grahams and Falwell's etc laughed. He whined about how he's been put through "hell' when he put america through this crime that even his own party said was wrong. A highly principled member of his party became the first man in history to break ranks. And yet he is totally belligerent and unapologetic.
The sheepish republicans saying hes "learned a lesson" are laughable.

He's a vile, vindictive despotic man, completely unburdened by any restraints whatever on his presidency however long it may last . Lt Colonel Vindman, american war hero, purple heart recipient was escorted off white house grounds by security along with his twin brother, also a decorated Iraq veteran whose crime was having the same last name as a guy who told the truth. This morning Trump is bashing "insubordinate" Vindman to the world on twitter.
Were Trump CEO of a major corporation he would have been suspended during this investigation , surely terminated and likely sued for this harassment and intimidation of a person testifying in a congressional inquiry.

Gordon Sondland was also recalled from his EU post as well. I'm sure he feels pretty good about the million dollars worth of chicken he dumped into Trump's inauguration now. .Comey, Bolton , McCabe Strozyk and Page etc better lawyer up because trump will try to put them in prison. Tell me what person employed in a future or current administration will ever step forward to report wrongdoing by the president,ever?

So get ready. NO pressure put on a foreign ally to influence the election will be challenged.MOF Bob Barr announced that any FBI investigation of a political campaign will go through him so get ready. No republican that crosses him will survive. No scheme to further enrich himself personally by bribing foreign nations will be off limits. And no future president will ever surrender these legal precedents that have been set here.
But hey MAGA

Romney is 68. He didn't throw anything away. He's fine. He's one of those old guys that set up where he doesn't need Trump and can do what his conscience feels is right. So he did what was right: voted to convict. I know what Trump did is not what we want our politicians doing. I'd vote to have him out too. If I was able, I'd vote to get rid of half the politicians or more in Washington D.C. in both parties. To me the Democrats aren't doing any of this Trump crap because they're moral or good, they're doing it because the Clintons and other powerful Democrats are pushing the Trump attacks. I have zero doubt if all of this were reversed, they would be defending the Democrat president just as the Republicans are defending the Republican President. Not because any of them think what they're doing is right, but because they're engaged in a power struggle.

And it's always been bad to cross a president or a powerful person. You ever read how many people associated with the Clinton's or Bushes are dead or gone? You don't cross powerful people unless you are powerful or you are willing to suffer the consequences of your attempt. At least it's not like North Korea or China where they end up dead and no questions asked. They might go to trial or lose a job, but fed to the dogs or shot and disappeared not even our president can usually carry out.

You been alive long enough to know how this world works and have read enough about corruption within your life and historically to know it will never go away.

And if Trump wins again, holy crap, the American people must really just not even be bothering to pretend they have any sense of morality. They just straight up are engaged in ideological warfare without any care as to who or how it gets accomplished.

[RiverDog]

To me the Democrats aren't doing any of this Trump crap because they're moral or good, they're doing it because the Clintons and other powerful Democrats are pushing the Trump attacks. I have zero doubt if all of this were reversed, they would be defending the Democrat president just as the Republicans are defending the Republican President. Not because any of them think what they're doing is right, but because they're engaged in a power struggle.

Agreed. It's hugely political. If the roles were reversed, it would be the Democrats that would be using idiotic arguments to justify keeping a POTUS in office just like they did with Clinton.

And if Trump wins again, holy crap, the American people must really just not even be bothering to pretend they have any sense of morality. They just straight up are engaged in ideological warfare without any care as to who or how it gets accomplished.

That's the most discouraging part of these past 3 years. I can halfway understand Americans voting for Trump because they didn't really know exactly who he was, but my God, if they can't see by now....

[Aseahawkfan]

That's the most discouraging part of these past 3 years. I can halfway understand Americans voting for Trump because they didn't really know exactly who he was, but my God, if they can't see by now....

You must know a few Trump voters. What do they tell you?

I know the people I know that support Trump do so because he is against the Democrats and Liberals. Most of them feel Democrats and Liberals aren't good for America, don't love this country, and they view them as awful people and enemies. They really despise people like Cortez and Omar, for all the reasons presented on Fox News. They view this as a battle against the Democratic left. They voted for Trump specifically to fight the Democratic Left. They like all his name calling and willingness to fight them. Very few I know have changed their opinion. They still view the Democratic Left as the biggest problem in this nation.

[I-5]

I find myself agreeing with ASF on what unites Trump’s supporters; their hate for the ‘far’ left, especially the more vocal ones like AOC and Pelosi (even if those two in particular aren’t even fully aligned, that nuance doesn’t matter to his supporters at all). That’s why I think when they hear more centralist moderate voices like Klobuchar and Buttigieg, and especially Yang, I think it lessens the hate somewhat.

[Hawktawk]

Romney is 68. He didn't throw anything away. He's fine. He's one of those old guys that set up where he doesn't need Trump and can do what his conscience feels is right. So he did what was right: voted to convict. I know what Trump did is not what we want our politicians doing. I'd vote to have him out too. If I was able, I'd vote to get rid of half the politicians or more in Washington D.C. in both parties. To me the Democrats aren't doing any of this Trump crap because they're moral or good, they're doing it because the Clintons and other powerful Democrats are pushing the Trump attacks. I have zero doubt if all of this were reversed, they would be defending the Democrat president just as the Republicans are defending the Republican President. Not because any of them think what they're doing is right, but because they're engaged in a power struggle.

And it's always been bad to cross a president or a powerful person. You ever read how many people associated with the Clinton's or Bushes are dead or gone? You don't cross powerful people unless you are powerful or you are willing to suffer the consequences of your attempt. At least it's not like North Korea or China where they end up dead and no questions asked. They might go to trial or lose a job, but fed to the dogs or shot and disappeared not even our president can usually carry out.

You been alive long enough to know how this world works and have read enough about corruption within your life and historically to know it will never go away.

And if Trump wins again, holy crap, the American people must really just not even be bothering to pretend they have any sense of morality. They just straight up are engaged in ideological warfare without any care as to who or how it gets accomplished.

No Romney did not throw anything away that was worth keeping. I said he was willing to throw it away.He was clearly choked up and bothered ,well aware of the significance of his actions as leader in the party over decades. I completely agree with you about democrats generally using Trumps stupid actions as an excuse to justify impeachment. There were some like the idiot Al Green calling for Impeachment the day Trump was elected.

But really asea what choice did trump leave Pelosi in the end ? Making that call to Ukraine the day after mueller's testimony knowing full well numerous other people are on that call????One day after? Total obstruction of the congressional oversight of the mueller report continued into this obviously legitimate investigation deemed"urgent" by the IG who ordered the release of the whistleblower report to the congress. I know its all politics but still one side is right and one is wrong. I thought political grandstanding aside he should have been impeached under the law after the Mueller testimony. Lost in the halting delivery was statements muller made calling Trump's dealings with Russia "unamerican" "clearly laying out multiple acts of obstruction"If we were confident the president did not commit a crime we would have said so". But regardless I completely supported the opening of the investigation and the articles of impeachment regardless of the ramifications. Its like he was daring Pelosi to do it.

I dont agree with democrats on much except their hatred of trump and they need look no further than the mirror when whining about how this has gone down. Behavior that back then was clearly disqualifying, a POTUS doing a 23 year old on the Presidential seal was shouted down,normalized. The investigation and the press was attacked, cries of partisan politics.The vast right wing conspiracy, investigate the investigators.
But there were some differences, I never saw Clinton act like a complete jackass in public. He still did the people's business whatever one thought of his policies. Democrats and Republicans agreed 100-0 on the rules for the trial. And a chastened Bill Clinton apologized to the american people.
It's quite different now. It still didn't whitewash the fact the US Senate voted for POTUS to have the right to commit perjury.I didn't agree with it at the time. Political or no that president was deserving of removal from office. This Senate has voted to make it possible for a president who definitely should have been removed from office to do pretty much whatever he wants and fasten your seat belt. I dont think we've seen unhinged like we will now. We've never had a first term impeachment before with potentially 5 years left with a supine lapdog Senate at your beck and call.

And yes a Trump re-election means America cares about its bottom line more than decency, dignity, legality. It would prove beyond a doubt that the Dem party is so pathetically weak, so willing to lose an election to win an ideological argument that it deserves another term out of office.

[RiverDog]

You must know a few Trump voters. What do they tell you?

I know the people I know that support Trump do so because he is against the Democrats and Liberals. Most of them feel Democrats and Liberals aren't good for America, don't love this country, and they view them as awful people and enemies. They really despise people like Cortez and Omar, for all the reasons presented on Fox News. They view this as a battle against the Democratic left. They voted for Trump specifically to fight the Democratic Left. They like all his name calling and willingness to fight them. Very few I know have changed their opinion. They still view the Democratic Left as the biggest problem in this nation.

Oh, I know a bunch of them. A lot of them are staunch 2nd Amendment supporters and see every Democrat as a threat to take away their guns. The passage of WA I-1639 has them frothing at the mouth. Others feel threatened and have bought into the illegal alien hysteria. If they hear a person talking in Spanish, it gets them riled up immediately. Most if not all of the ones I know are over 50, white males that do not have a college degree. And having grown up in a rural community, a lot of my classmates are for him due to typical rural vs. urban issues, in this area liberals from the Puget Sound area wanting to breach the lower Snake River Dams. As the saying goes, all politics are local, and IMO a lot of my friends link all Democrats with the initiatives the western WA liberals are foisting on eastern WA conservatives. To tell you the truth, I support the conservative side on many of those issues, including the I-1639 and dam breaching issues, but I don't link it to supporting Trump, but I'm pretty sure that many of my friends do.

I do see a lot of Trump signs in my neighborhood in front of some very nice homes, so his support can't be coming from just the stereotypical toothless hillbilly sitting on the tailgate of a '72 Ford swigging a jug of corn liquor. Those are the ones that are surprising, but I don't know very many of them personally.

[RiverDog]

I find myself agreeing with ASF on what unites Trump’s supporters; their hate for the ‘far’ left, especially the more vocal ones like AOC and Pelosi (even if those two in particular aren’t even fully aligned, that nuance doesn’t matter to his supporters at all). That’s why I think when they hear more centralist moderate voices like Klobuchar and Buttigieg, and especially Yang, I think it lessens the hate somewhat.

The hate won't get lessened until Trump is out of office. Trump will define any and every opponent in such a manner that he will inspire his supporters to hate them like the Devil. I've never seen a politician that can do that to the degree that Trump can. Heck, Trump could talk his supporters into believing that Yang is spreading the coronavirus or that Buttigieg will officiate gay weddings on the White House lawn. There is no limit to the depths which he will sink.

I wasn't around for McCarthyism, but judging from my reading of history, it's the period of time that has the most in common with what we are going through today, and like back then, once Trump is gone, it will go into remission just like it did in the 50's with McCarthy.

[Hawktawk]

The hate won't get lessened until Trump is out of office. Trump will define any and every opponent in such a manner that he will inspire his supporters to hate them like the Devil. I've never seen a politician that can do that to the degree that Trump can. Heck, Trump could talk his supporters into believing that Yang is spreading the coronavirus or that Buttigieg will officiate gay weddings on the White House lawn. There is no limit to the depths which he will sink.

I wasn't around for McCarthyism, but judging from my reading of history, it's the period of time that has the most in common with what we are going through today, and like back then, once Trump is gone, it will go into remission just like it did in the 50's with McCarthy.

Look at the people who have been soiled by associating with Trump. Americas mayor, Mike Pence, Mike pompeo, west point grad now attack dog for corruption.

But no RD I don't think its ever going to quite go into "remission". Look how far we've gone off the rails since Nixon. A guy caught with a smoking gun uncovering a cover up of a domestic burglary to influence an election got booted. Now a guy twice caught interfering with a foreign country to influence his own election is just fine and dandy. His rude unbecoming demeanor, his hateful spiteful vindictive pettiness is the least of my problems with him. Although I believe those personality traits influence many of his policy decisions. I can't imagine another president as psychologically unfit so in that sense it will likely go into remission as you say but the precedent for this type of behavior being acceptable has been set.

[RiverDog]

But no RD I don't think its ever going to quite go into "remission". Look how far we've gone off the rails since Nixon. A guy caught with a smoking gun uncovering a cover up of a domestic burglary to influence an election got booted. Now a guy twice caught interfering with a foreign country to influence his own election is just fine and dandy. His rude unbecoming demeanor, his hateful spiteful vindictive pettiness is the least of my problems with him. Although I believe those personality traits influence many of his policy decisions. I can't imagine another president as psychologically unfit so in that sense it will likely go into remission as you say but the precedent for this type of behavior being acceptable has been set.

Actually I think Trump's hateful racist pettiness is the worst part of his presidency. He's made racism and vulgarity more acceptable, gives comfort to insecure people that have always felt threatened by immigrants and people that don't look or talk like them, and have harbored those underlying, primitive emotions laying dormant and nearly extinct until he awakened them and gave them credibility and emboldened them.

Trump has Demonized immigrants, given people the impression that we have this huge surge of illegals coming across unguarded sections of the border, that they're nothing but a pack of drug running murderers and rapists, mocked those with non Anglo names, made all Muslims into terrorists looking to do us harm. I've associated with hundreds of immigrants/minorities, and the most difficult thing I have had to do since Trump is convince them that the majority of the country doesn't hate them.

Scandals aren't usually repeated, so I'm not too worried about Trump setting a precedent. If anything, his abuses have brought them to light and that future pols will be less likely to commit Trumpian abuses now than before.

[Aseahawkfan]

Look at the people who have been soiled by associating with Trump. Americas mayor, Mike Pence, Mike pompeo, west point grad now attack dog for corruption.

But no RD I don't think its ever going to quite go into "remission". Look how far we've gone off the rails since Nixon. A guy caught with a smoking gun uncovering a cover up of a domestic burglary to influence an election got booted. Now a guy twice caught interfering with a foreign country to influence his own election is just fine and dandy. His rude unbecoming demeanor, his hateful spiteful vindictive pettiness is the least of my problems with him. Although I believe those personality traits influence many of his policy decisions. I can't imagine another president as psychologically unfit so in that sense it will likely go into remission as you say but the precedent for this type of behavior being acceptable has been set.

You used to be a pretty hardcore Republican. You must know quite a few. Do they support Trump? Do you ever ask them why they do it? Why dot they support this obvious charlatan? Same reason RD and my friends do? To fight the left and because they fear the left's attack on their rights and way of life? What is it like being a former Republican with probably a lot of Republican friends and hating Trump?

[I-5]

I think it's an interesting question why some traditional republicans (like HT) outrightly reject Trump, and others embrace him. I think it takes a lot more thinking and reflection to reject your party's top 'official' spokesperson (POTUS) than to accept him. I would say for democrats when there is an unsavory president in the WH.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I remember on Facebook back during the 2016 election, there were 3 or 4 women I went to high school were arguing about Trump. One of them firmly against him, the others for him. Keep in mind, these were women. The lone detractor finally had to ask them how they could support a man like Trump. They said they don't like him as a person and don't agree with a lot of things he had said and how he acts, but they were upset with health care costs and what they perceived as the coming attacks against the middle class economy (one was a small business owner and the other a veterinarian; both lived in Florida). Given the choices, Trump was the only one they saw as a means to address these issues. These women on both sides of the argument are college educated, hard-working people who, as far as I know, aren't racist or xenophobic. They simply see things differently from an economic stand point.

I can't get into to more because I don't remember it all, and I can't speak for them, but that is a real issue I see coming. There are plenty of educated people now, as there were in the last election, that want a more centrist candidate but feel like all they are getting as an alternative to Trump is a far left candidate like Warren or Sanders. If I see one of them and Trump on the ballot and some third party hack like last time, I'll have a hard time not voting for Trump; that's the lesser of the evils. It is a sad state of affairs if he ends up being the best we can do. I see somebody like Bloomberg, then Trump doesn't get my vote. Still need to look at Buttgieg and Klobuchar, but the point is, a far left candidate will basically seal the deal for Trump, in my opinion.

[RiverDog]

I remember on Facebook back during the 2016 election, there were 3 or 4 women I went to high school were arguing about Trump. One of them firmly against him, the others for him. Keep in mind, these were women. The lone detractor finally had to ask them how they could support a man like Trump. They said they don't like him as a person and don't agree with a lot of things he had said and how he acts, but they were upset with health care costs and what they perceived as the coming attacks against the middle class economy (one was a small business owner and the other a veterinarian; both lived in Florida). Given the choices, Trump was the only one they saw as a means to address these issues. These women on both sides of the argument are college educated, hard-working people who, as far as I know, aren't racist or xenophobic. They simply see things differently from an economic stand point.

I can't get into to more because I don't remember it all, and I can't speak for them, but that is a real issue I see coming. There are plenty of educated people now, as there were in the last election, that want a more centrist candidate but feel like all they are getting as an alternative to Trump is a far left candidate like Warren or Sanders. If I see one of them and Trump on the ballot and some third party hack like last time, I'll have a hard time not voting for Trump; that's the lesser of the evils. It is a sad state of affairs if he ends up being the best we can do. I see somebody like Bloomberg, then Trump doesn't get my vote. Still need to look at Buttgieg and Klobuchar, but the point is, a far left candidate will basically seal the deal for Trump, in my opinion.

That's a lot like I feel, except I will never vote for Trump because I honestly think that he's a racist and voting for him would amount to a slap in the face to all those friends of mine that belong in the groups he's insulted and/or Demonized. I also feel that he's a poor manager with almost no work ethic, is a narcissist, abuses his power, isn't very smart, and is way is too thin skinned and revenge minded to be deemed worthy of the office.

Bottom line is that my objection to Trump is based almost exclusively on his personal flaws rather than his politics. About the only issue that I don't have a fatal objection to that is not based on his character is his stance on immigration.

I can see myself voting for Buttigieg, Klobuchar, or Bloomberg, but definitely not Warren or Sanders. If that's the best the Dems can do, I'll either vote for a 3rd party/independent candidate like I did in 2016 or I won't vote at all.

[Aseahawkfan]

That's a lot like I feel, except I will never vote for Trump because I honestly think that he's a racist and voting for him would amount to a slap in the face to all those friends of mine that belong in the groups he's insulted and/or Demonized. I also feel that he's a poor manager with almost no work ethic, is a narcissist, abuses his power, isn't very smart, and is way is too thin skinned and revenge minded to be deemed worthy of the office.

Bottom line is that my objection to Trump is based almost exclusively on his personal flaws rather than his politics. About the only issue that I don't have a fatal objection to that is not based on his character is his stance on immigration.

I can see myself voting for Buttigieg, Klobuchar, or Bloomberg, but definitely not Warren or Sanders. If that's the best the Dems can do, I'll either vote for a 3rd party/independent candidate like I did in 2016 or I won't vote at all.

I can't vote for Bloomberg. His ideas about the 2nd Amendment are tyrannical. He's basically in that Soros mold of no one should own weapons but the professional military/police class that the common citizen should not be a part of. I don't agree with that stance at all. It's the stance nearly every tyrant group has taken since the dawn of time. A people without military power has no power at all and completely relies on the goodwill of the government not to mistreat them and use force against them which no government has proven trustworthy to do. He has no respect for the 2nd Amendment. I know you don't care about the 2nd Amendment or consider it important for the population to maintain their right of violent revolution, but I will not vote for any candidate looking to disarm and disempower United States citizens even if some citizens want to use their voting rights to remove the right of violent revolution from the people. To me once the population is disarmed willingly or not, we are no better than China as far as the power the people of the nation hold.

I could stomach a Buttgiet or Klobuchar presidency.

[RiverDog]

I can't vote for Bloomberg. His ideas about the 2nd Amendment are tyrannical. He's basically in that Soros mold of no one should own weapons but the professional military/police class that the common citizen should not be a part of. I don't agree with that stance at all. It's the stance nearly every tyrant group has taken since the dawn of time. A people without military power has no power at all and completely relies on the goodwill of the government not to mistreat them and use force against them which no government has proven trustworthy to do. He has no respect for the 2nd Amendment. I know you don't care about the 2nd Amendment or consider it important for the population to maintain their right of violent revolution, but I will not vote for any candidate looking to disarm and disempower United States citizens even if some citizens want to use their voting rights to remove the right of violent revolution from the people. To me once the population is disarmed willingly or not, we are no better than China as far as the power the people of the nation hold.

I could stomach a Buttgiet or Klobuchar presidency.

I don't disagree with your objections with Bloomberg, but it's not a deal breaker for me like Medicare for All, the Green New Deal, or Free College/debt forgiveness would be.

[Hawktawk]

You used to be a pretty hardcore Republican. You must know quite a few. Do they support Trump? Do you ever ask them why they do it? Why dot they support this obvious charlatan? Same reason RD and my friends do? To fight the left and because they fear the left's attack on their rights and way of life? What is it like being a former Republican with probably a lot of Republican friends and hating Trump?

Honestly man it's pretty lonely.Im 60, from eastern washington,I was a lifelong staunch republican, fox watching rush listening true believer. 4 of my 5 siblings support Trump. 90% of my many friends, 75 to 80% of my 444 FB friends. I'm bombarded by trumptards who share their chest beating memes till I have to unfollow them.
My best friend on the planet Dale is a huge trump supporter and for one reason only, $. He's a fast food franchise multiple location owner and heavily invested in the markets. He's getting ready to retire in a year and a half at 62. Dale and I met at sun Lakes resort in 1975. We were fry cooks at the KFC restaurant that was there. We were 16 years old.We've stayed in touch over 4 decades.Dale buys us a game and a room at the edgewater every year for my birthday. In 40+years we've never disagreed about a damn thing until trump came along. We dont discuss it but there's a tension that's never existed and it p!@@es me off frankly. Its a divisive time.

I know Dale, my family would never make me choose them or my beliefs but if they did Id be willing to lose it rather than be a phony.Many relationships have ended over this presidency. Many political careers of Rs who dared cross Trump have been ruined. Its ironic 4 prosecutors from the stone case had more balls than any R Senator but one.Those R Senators that handed out a blank check to trump must be pretty happy watching him bulldozing the rule of law and persecuting people who dared tell the truth about him. Thats El Salvador type stuff, banana republic with nukes.Susan Collins, Lamar Alexander etc said they thought he would "learn a lesson". He's learned a lesson alright. He's learned there is no guardrails on his presidency anymore. Imagine maybe another 5 years of this .

I'm with Mitt. That's my kind of republican. Without integrity we are nothing.


No asea it has been very painful to see what's happened, how transactional we are in america, even people I will always love dearly.
I'll never regret taking a stand very early on Trump. I've been absolutely right about my worst instincts, more so than I ever believed possible.

[Hawktawk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGY2qihNX_Y

Pretty funny ol Donnie boy let his mouth overload his arse. Manchin surprised me with his vote nearly as much as Romney as did Doug Jones.

[Aseahawkfan]

Honestly man it's pretty lonely.Im 60, from eastern washington,I was a lifelong staunch republican, fox watching rush listening true believer. 4 of my 5 siblings support Trump. 90% of my many friends, 75 to 80% of my 444 FB friends. I'm bombarded by trumptards who share their chest beating memes till I have to unfollow them.
My best friend on the planet Dale is a huge trump supporter and for one reason only, $. He's a fast food franchise multiple location owner and heavily invested in the markets. He's getting ready to retire in a year and a half at 62. Dale and I met at sun Lakes resort in 1975. We were fry cooks at the KFC restaurant that was there. We were 16 years old.We've stayed in touch over 4 decades.Dale buys us a game and a room at the edgewater every year for my birthday. In 40+years we've never disagreed about a damn thing until trump came along. We dont discuss it but there's a tension that's never existed and it p!@@es me off frankly. Its a divisive time.

I know Dale, my family would never make me choose them or my beliefs but if they did Id be willing to lose it rather than be a phony.Many relationships have ended over this presidency. Many political careers of Rs who dared cross Trump have been ruined. Its ironic 4 prosecutors from the stone case had more balls than any R Senator but one.Those R Senators that handed out a blank check to trump must be pretty happy watching him bulldozing the rule of law and persecuting people who dared tell the truth about him. Thats El Salvador type stuff, banana republic with nukes.Susan Collins, Lamar Alexander etc said they thought he would "learn a lesson". He's learned a lesson alright. He's learned there is no guardrails on his presidency anymore. Imagine maybe another 5 years of this .

I'm with Mitt. That's my kind of republican. Without integrity we are nothing.


No asea it has been very painful to see what's happened, how transactional we are in america, even people I will always love dearly.
I'll never regret taking a stand very early on Trump. I've been absolutely right about my worst instincts, more so than I ever believed possible.

Look man, I have the same situation on occasion with my mother. She loves Trump, acts like he can do no wrong. I have to tell her he's a liar and charlatan and tell her the specific lies.

At the end of the day, she's my mother. Trump ain't worth losing friendships over or any of that. He will pass like all the other crap. You losing friends over this jackass isn't close to worth it. Make your arguments and ignore the noise. Do not let this jackass ruin or harm your life in anyway. Don't give him that kind of power or any man for that matter.

Tune him out and keep what is important in your life good like your friend Dale. Trump is not worth me losing a single friend or relative. He's not worth you doing that either.

[Hawktawk]

Look man, I have the same situation on occasion with my mother. She loves Trump, acts like he can do no wrong. I have to tell her he's a liar and charlatan and tell her the specific lies.

At the end of the day, she's my mother. Trump ain't worth losing friendships over or any of that. He will pass like all the other crap. You losing friends over this jackass isn't close to worth it. Make your arguments and ignore the noise. Do not let this jackass ruin or harm your life in anyway. Don't give him that kind of power or any man for that matter.

Tune him out and keep what is important in your life good like your friend Dale. Trump is not worth me losing a single friend or relative. He's not worth you doing that either.

We may disagree about how much Trump is destructive to America but I have no disagreement with what you've said here and I understand that as well as my friends and family . There are great and awful people who support and hate trump. Our political views do not define us. Thanks for the reminder and have a great day.

[RiverDog]

Look man, I have the same situation on occasion with my mother. She loves Trump, acts like he can do no wrong. I have to tell her he's a liar and charlatan and tell her the specific lies.

At the end of the day, she's my mother. Trump ain't worth losing friendships over or any of that. He will pass like all the other crap. You losing friends over this jackass isn't close to worth it. Make your arguments and ignore the noise. Do not let this jackass ruin or harm your life in anyway. Don't give him that kind of power or any man for that matter.

Tune him out and keep what is important in your life good like your friend Dale. Trump is not worth me losing a single friend or relative. He's not worth you doing that either.

Well said. People at work would get into political discussions and ask me who I voted for and I declined to tell them, I just reply by saying "I didn't vote for Trump" and exited the discussion. Prior to Trump, in the 40 previous years that I worked in a supervisory position (1978-2018), I wouldn't even say that much, but given how much of a racist and xenophobe Trump is and given how many immigrants and minorities I worked with and how threatened many of them feel as a result, I wanted to make sure that no one even remotely associated me with Trump. I never felt the need to make that distinction with any other POTUS or nominee.

That's one of the reasons why I like discussing politics here. I don't feel the same constraints Hawktalk referred to here as I do in other venues.