curmudgeon wrote:I haven’t gone out more than three times over the last month. Yesterday I went to a “local” grocery store close to my neighborhood. Unfortunately, only about 50% of people in the store (including employees) were wearing masks. As I left the store I asked the cart attendant what percentage of people were masked up. He indicated that is was a wide variance based on time of day and demographic of shoppers. To top it off, as I left the store I heard some hacking and coughing and observed from a distance a woman loading her groceries into car than hocking up junk and spitting in the parking lot. Darwin always wins......think I’ll stay home for the near future.....
MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I want to say leave it up to the governors, but some governors want to push for re-opening before it is safe to do so, in my opinion.
All I can speak for is Louisiana, and the governor is maintaining the stay-at-home order through April 30 and will reassess Phase I of re-opening then. It is contingent on case curve breaking the plateau in the downward direction. Even with that, he's already stated that wearing masks is the new normal right now, so I don't expect him to want to relax PPE and social distancing measures even with a limited re-opening. The state has also been doing as much as they can to ramp up testing capacity which along with building the contacting tracing infrastructure will be key to re-opening.
You last statement is the answer. Have ample testing capacity and the resources to trace contact. I don't think you can consider reopening with out those two measures in place.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I read a quote I found interesting that I'd like to see too. The poster said, "All the people wanting to continue the lock down were people that still had a job or a retirement check." I would like to see a poll of people who are at risk of losing everything during shutdown.
26 million unemployment claims filed in 5 weeks of the approximate workforce of 156 million. That is a 16.7% unemployment rate in only five weeks of lock down from a roughly 3 to 4% prior to the lock down. The highest the unemployment rate went during The Great Recession was 10%. This is the highest number of unemployment claims filed within this time frame in recorded history. The highest unemployment got during The Great Depression was 24.9%. If this lock down continues, we will beat that.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/23/coronavirus-unemployment-claims-numbers-203455
Aseahawkfan wrote:I'm not trying pump the administration. I don't care if Trump loses or wins in November. Guys mostly a moron staying moronic things. He doesn't even seem able to help himself at this point as he gave the left wing media another incredibly stupid quote to hammer him with with the disinfectants. I wish the various levels of governments would get their heads out of their behinds from the top down president included and get a Federal, State, and Local plan to get this economy going again. Not because I want my money as I know what to by when this collapse hits. I'm already positioned in some of these companies.
Aseahawkfan wrote:So yeah, I could be selfish because I have a job and a lot of money encouraging the lock down to continue, but I don't want to live in a third world America where I'm part of the money class while I'm watching working people standing in food lines and forced out of their homes as I already watched that during the 2008 Recession and this is going to make 2008 look like a light rain compared to the economic storm that is coming. I can't emphasize enough that this is going to happen, to what degree depends on how soon we get this thing going again.
c_hawkbob wrote:What a far right viewpoint ... what I see are a bunch of people that are already millionaires and billionaires asking us paycheck to paycheck hourly folk to risk our lives so they don't lose everything (or to stay in the administration's favor).
Obviously there is some truth to both viewpoints, as always, but I only see one side being represented on this particular topic.
RiverDog wrote:You don't care if Trump wins or loses in November? I thought that you had a preference for Biden and wanted Trump off stage.
I'm not hurting, either, but I do have to admit to a personal bias in that I have a daughter that works as a provider that could very well end up being infected if we restart things prematurely and don't get our act together regarding PPE's and testing
If it's going to require that we wait another 2-6 weeks in order to get our act together regarding testing, contact tracing, and PPE's, then that's what we need to do. It's hard for me to believe that waiting another few weeks is going to do that much more damage to the economy that hasn't been done already. Certainly the folks on Wall Street aren't all that concerned.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I would prefer Trump gone even if it were Sanders as Sanders would have at least been interesting, but I don't care enough to freak out either way if that's a better way to put it. If Trump wins, I won't be ripping my hair and crying like the world is going to end like say a Hawktawk. If Biden wins,I won't be ripping my hair out waiting for our guns to be taken and us to change to socialists like say an Idhawkman. It's hard to nuance that statement each time you state it. Suffice it to say whoever is president isn't going send me into a tizzy one way or the other. Yeah. I'm tired of the environment Trump creates with his combative pettiness and the reactions to it.
Aseahawkfan wrote:A few weeks would probably be ok.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Like we all said before Trump was elected other than I guess Idhawkmen and other Trump supporters, this is the weakest leadership I can recall in my lifetime. Trump is a bully. And Pelosi and McConnell don't seem up to the task of putting the bully back in line. Our leadership from the top down seems pretty weak right now and need a lot better and quick. I wish I had a better person to vote for than BIden next election because I have definitely grown weary of Trump, but Biden seems equally weak.
RiverDog wrote:I can handle that. In other words, you do care, just that there's a limit to your passion.
Waiting until mid May vs. May 3rd could make a huge difference.
I see where Boeing is going back to work, but they'll be testing their employees and will hire their own contact chasers if one of them test positive. I like that option, put the responsibility of contact chasing on the company. It seems like a fair compromise. You want to re-open your business? Fine. You help us out by taking care of all this extra stuff like tests and contact chasing.
Aseahawkfan wrote:When Trump was first elected, the reactions to it were just ridiculous. A virus has done more to change our lives than Trump. I have never understood freaking out over who is president. The president is limited and controlled by design. The leader of a powerful nation, but not a king or dictator able to do what he wants.
I can't react to politicians like my life is going to end or the world. It seems out of line with their power.
I see where Boeing is going back to work, but they'll be testing their employees and will hire their own contact chasers if one of them test positive. I like that option, put the responsibility of contact chasing on the company. It seems like a fair compromise. You want to re-open your business? Fine. You help us out by taking care of all this extra stuff like tests and contact chasing.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Companies need to share the cost with clear guidelines. If they are not willing to share the cost, they'll end up sharing it with higher taxes, which are likely already coming to pay for all the lost tax revenue the various levels of government will require to recover.
RiverDog wrote:For the most part, I'm in agreement. Nearly all the damage that Trump has done, at least to this point, can be repaired.
And they will, at least the big ones with 50+ employees, providing that they are given the opportunity. It is in their best interest to keep their employees healthy. Most are self insured, so a test and a contact tracer is cheaper than paying for a hospitalization. Plus they'll be getting a very tangible PR benefit for their efforts. They can also help change the paradigm by insisting that their employees wear face coverings at all times while on company property, including office workers, management, vendors, visitors, etc. They can give away masks with their logo on them like they do tee shirts and baseball caps.
I don't think we'll be able to get completely back to normal for several years to come. I sincerely doubt that we'll see football games with packed stadiums this season. The travel industry is going to get slammed hard no matter what politicians do with regards to getting the economy restarted. Many restaurants will never re-open, choosing to go out of business instead. And to the chagrin of AOC, who obviously hasn't thought things out, the oil crash will make renewable energy less attractive as the cost differential will be much more dramatic. Mass transit will be a less popular form of commuting as the cost of gas is going to be incredibly cheap while the risk of contracting a communicable disease on a train will weigh on the minds of many.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't think it will take several years as I think they will have a vaccine by early next year. Once the vaccine is in place, the media will stop pushing the scare tactics. Americans are quick to forget and move on when the media isn't blaring it in their ear. I think we will recover fairly quickly, at least before several years. I'm figuring 2022 by the latest and likely in early 2021. If a Democrat is in office, the left wing media will blast the efficacy of a vaccine and the safeness far and wide to cement their control of the White House. If Trump is in office, they will continue the non-stop fear mongering and likely marginalize the effectiveness of a vaccine leading to a longer return to normalcy.
A vaccine is really the key to a quick return to normalcy. I expect that by September or October or perhaps early 2021 they will roll something out.
Aseahawkfan wrote: I don't expect Trump wins in November unless he magically gets the economy going and has a vaccine before November.
RiverDog wrote:I wouldn't hold my breath on a vaccine being available by this fall, and even if they do, it's going to take months to manufacture and distribute it. And there's always the chance that it won't be as effective as the clinical trials. Only about 6% of all vaccines ever make it to market. And despite what the POTUS says, the virus is highly likely to return this fall, before a vaccine is available. I agree with those that point out that we'll be more prepared this time around, but if it's coupled with a bad outbreak of the flu, the combination could easily overwhelm hospitals this fall like it did a few weeks ago. That's why I think it would be unwise to allow football games to be played in front of 50,000-100,000 fans this fall. That change alone would have a significant effect on the economy. Mass transit systems may be closed or severely limited, forcing businesses to curtail operations.
There are going to be certain industries that will take several years to recover. I doubt that the cruise ship industry recovers very fast.
They've projected that 20% of all restaurants will close permanently.
With the oil crash, there's a lot of domestic producers that have gone or will go out of business.
Many companies, like my former employer, are going to have to come up with a better response plan to a pandemic, re-orientate their work spaces to permit social distancing. Places that serve food will be forced to re-evaluate how they serve it. You can kiss goodbye the free samples at Costco, the continental breakfast at the Holiday Inn, and the salad bar at Pizza Hut. Buffets will be required to have a server rather than help yourself, like at a cafeteria, rather than everyone putting their meat hooks on something then changing their minds and returning it to the counter. Those changes aren't going to be cheap, and costs will be passed onto the consumer. I fully expect Congress to make such changes mandatory as part of their own response.
I'm not trying to match your Debbie Downerism, but I don't think the economy is going to quickly return to the levels it was just prior to the crisis. It's going to be similar to the end of a war where the economy goes into recession for several years, like it did after Vietnam, the Gulf War, and 9/11.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Needed vaccines make it to market. Vaccines that were pipe dreams like against cancer or for outbreaks that are not widespread and suddenly disappear like MERS or the original SARS lose momentum. This will not lose momentum. We will have a vaccine unless this one magically disappears and does not return. Which as you stated is unlikely.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Full stadiums won't be back until we have a vaccine or this thing disappears (that would be lucky). Mass transit will likely not shut down. It hasn't yet. People have to be able to travel and not everyone has cars or money for Uber.
Aseahawkfan wrote:With a vaccine cruise ships will recover.
They've projected that 20% of all restaurants will close permanently.
Aseahawkfan wrote:And new restaurants will take their place quickly. Restaurant business is remarkably fluid. They key is getting people employed again.
Aseahawkfan wrote:The depth of our recession will depend on how long we remain shutdown.
Aseahawkfan wrote:We're almost always late to the party throughout our history. Maybe price of being a free nation. It seems to take extreme events to get people at least somewhat unified. I think all our wars had an event that galvanized us to war. Pandemics made people adjust. Economic recessions and depressions. When things are going well Americans tend to be the "leave me alone" type of people. Freedom and an individualistic, open society can be costly in these situations. Unfortunate you can't change your culture when needed like say a Singapore or South Korea. They are far more organized with strong cultural underpinnings encouraging people to trust and obey their government and work in an orderly, unified manner. Americans aren't like that at all. We're an unruly bunch of cusses that seem to walk to the beat of our own drum as the saying goes.
I hope for the sake of our nation we don't have a serious resurgence or we're going to have a real bad few years at least. I do believe that we'll have a vaccine by late this year or early next year and will likely fast track the solution for vulnerable groups if it shows a six month or so efficacy.
Hawktawk wrote:https://finance.yahoo.com/news/mnuchin-says-no-bailout-states-131400583.html
Talk about bad budgeting Steve. A 1.7 trillion giveaway to the rich leading to trillion dollar deficits every year of this administration. Bullying Powell into keeping interest rates in the basement in a good economy. Now we are where exactly? Major crisis with no hay in the barn. Where all these Trillions are coming from to bail out big business I have no idea. Nor do I understand why tens of trillions are flowing into purchase of securities by the FED to prop up the markets. Arent they supposed to be high risk? when did they become too big to fail?
Well done goldman sachs guy. Your priorities are well in order.
In other news this awesome administtration Trump tells you every day is doing a great job allowed this https://sports.yahoo.com/lakers-got-fed ... 15027.html
Testing capability is awful still, a fraction of what's needed per capita to open safely. https://news.yahoo.com/the-coronavirus- ... 22804.html
Still I've come to see it Aseas way. We have to open up even though it will cost more lives than waiting for sure. We have to rely on us.
Its becuase government of the united states of america has been worse than belarus in handling this . Utterly inept. No nation has done less with more. They cannot bail us out with these willy nilly rescue packages where the loan site crashes in an hour and publicly traded companies siphon up the money. People are desperate, starving waiting on aid.1 in 4 American families is on the brink. People are missing mortgage and car payments Wall street is getting the bail out again.People are waiting over a month for unemployment . Today i heard he is going to order meat packing plants to remain open even though they are cauldrons of infection due to a lack of PPE and testing . Infected food supply chains, aircraft carriers etc. Yes its an awesome job they are doing.
We have to go to work now or face total collapse and it didn't have to be this way. If we come out of the other side of this we the people better sure as hell do a better job of choosing our leaders and not just our president. This has been ridiculous. Made America great again alright. Greatest number of Coronavirus cases and deaths on earth by a mile and climbing and TRUMP WANTS SOME CREDIT FOR HIS GREAT JOB
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. He dared tweet the other day that the death toll is artificially elevated to make him look bad. He went there
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. A more despicable person does not exist .
Thankfully the majority of the country is beginning to see it now.Hes killing himself with independents and some republicans every time he gets up at one of these briefing/campaign appearances. Keep talking Trump. If you kill off a few of your idiot followers with your quack remedies so much the bette![]()
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r.
RiverDog wrote:I see now where Trump is using the DPA to force meat and poultry packers to remain open. We have a Tyson Foods meat processing facility in our area, and they just shut it down due to a large outbreak, over 110 positive tests and one death. Although I've never been inside the plant, I know a lot of people that have worked there. They work shoulder to shoulder. It's low paying work, meaning that most workers are immigrants and/or minorities. The plant is about 20 miles out of town, so most carpool, sometimes 4 or 5 per carload. Breaks are taken in a crowded cafeteria and hallways are jam packed, especially at shift changes. It's a perfect incubator for a virus.
We are no where near a situation where our food supply is being threatened. Yes, we may see some shortages this summer, but it's only 2 or 3 basic products, red meat and poultry. But now that Trump has suggested that the problem is this serious, it's sure to trigger more panic buying.
I'm not sure of the legality of this EO. Harry Truman tried to evoke the DPA to force the end of a strike in the steel industry during the Korean War and failed. It sounds to me that Trump is just giving employers like Tyson cover in the event that a lawsuit is filed, so they can say to a family that had a loved one die that the President ordered them to remain open. And of course, you can't sue the federal government.
Aseahawkfan wrote:You don't think the president can use the DPA legally to force private industry to create what we need to make this work? I thought you said earlier he did in regards to PPE.
RiverDog wrote:Several differences: There was an identifiable, urgent need for PPE's. There is no such need for meat and poultry products, at least not yet. Hell, we'd probably be better off health-wise if we had to eat vegetables and grains instead of meat.
Secondly, in the case of PPE production, there was no imminent threat to the health of the workers or their contacts. That is obviously not the case with the current EO and the meat and poultry workers.
I don't think that Trump would have a snowball's chance in hell of sustaining this order if it were to be taken to court, and I think that even he knows that. What it does do is gives employers like Tyson legal cover if they were to be sued over the decision to resume production.
Aseahawkfan wrote:Food is pretty essential. If meat was short, people would panic buy certain vegetables likely causing shortages there. I imagine there are agricultural shortages out there as well. One of my co-workers just told me Dick's Burgers stopped selling French Fries because fresh potatoes are hard to find right now. I'm surprised as I heard nothing about it, but a business wouldn't stop one of their key selling items unless there was supply problem. I know I've seen lots of empty potato sections. So a shortage of food in one area may cause panic buying in another area creating further shortages.
I don't think that Trump would have a snowball's chance in hell of sustaining this order if it were to be taken to court, and I think that even he knows that. What it does do is gives employers like Tyson legal cover if they were to be sued over the decision to resume production.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I think it would depend if he could show a supply shock in other food areas afterwards and then other major suppliers followed suit shutting down agricultural production for the same reason as meat causing a cascading effect that hammered the food supply.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I don't know if you've done much reading on this, but they are killing thousands of chickens and pigs because of these plants shutting down. It's no joke how much pork and poultry they are destroying right now. Where do you think all those panic buyers will go if chicken and pork are gone from the shelves? Do you want to compete for beans, beef, and potatoes if the pork and chicken are gone in grocery stores?
Aseahawkfan wrote:So I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. I think any aspect of the food supply shutting down making it legally possible for food suppliers to shutdown due to coronavirus outbreaks could lead to a huge supply shock in the food supply chain causing a cascading effect which would be devastating to our nation and the world food supply. I think the White House could make this one stick.
Hawktawk wrote:We had it all. The most advance warning other than China itself due to our intelligence capabilities. We have the best medical system in the world, the best doctors, scientists, digital age geniuses and giants. The biggest economy, the most wealthy nation on the planet.
And we just look ridiculous. We truly have no clue how many are infected or dead 4 months after our first heads up due to the lack of antibody and virus tests.Opening the door now is the great unknown without testing or a single of the states opening having reached the WHs task force criteria of declines for 14 days. Some of the states are still seeing an increase as other countries who opened too early are locked back down now but I dont think it would happen here even if they are dropping like flies.I dont think this administration wants everyone tested and certainly not the huge number of spikes in death rates just before the first case reported.Im certain my 40 year old healthy ex son in law was one dying of a violent bout with pneumonia in western washington in mid Jan.
Aseahawkfan wrote:I gave the dork a break and I won't blame him for a global pandemic. But at this point how can I defend this idiotic response that isn't coming close to using the immense resources of America in an intelligent fashion when you have clear models from other nations for how to do this. I really get the feeling Old Man Trump doesn't understand all of this, so he's listening to his business crony economic people rather than the scientists trying to get this done. It's super tiresome.
Somebody needs to shake the idiot and say, "Use the Defense Production Act, moron. Force tech companies to build contact tracing cross platform into the phones. Force various labs to get out quick testing. Come up with a relief bill paying for quarantined people for a few weeks, then follow up testing to ensure they are clear of the virus. How hard is this to understand you fricking moron? And do it on a Federal level coordinating with the states as this is a threat to our entire nation, not individual states."
This is just stupid at this point. You don't need a blanket policy that shuts everyone down, but Federal guidelines for testing, travel, border control, and an overall Federally coordinated plan is intelligent on a national level.
c_hawkbob wrote:The level of culpability between Trump and the CDC is not even remotely comparable. The CDC started issuing warnings and taking actions (like having representative in airports to screen travelers from China) in January, while Trump was still in full denial mode. If he'd followed their lead, as would have been appropriate, we wouldn't near the crisis we're facing now. He is personally responsible for thousands of lives. Stop trying to minimize his impact with false equivalencies. The CDC isn't without some blame in this situation but they weren't the malignancy he is.
c_hawkbob wrote:Sure there were defective tests and much time was lost trying to get effective tests, but Trump can share in that as well as he refused to use the WHO testing protocol they had developed in favor of starting from scratch for ourselves. Even that though isn't what I'm talking about with Trump.
Mistakes are one thing, we're all human and we all make mistakes, and it's not unusual for the US to decline known procedures in favor of developing our own. It certainly didn't help,but it pales in comparison to Trump's willful actions against the advise of his own experts for 2 full months before finally admitting there was something to it and his constant twitter nonsense touting miracle cures and inciting resistance in, and refusing to help states or or cities based on the political parties by which they are lead.
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