Should Biden Debate Trump?

[I-5]

Yep. Train wreck.

[Aseahawkfan]

Big fish? Yes. Lots of money? Doubtful. When Trump said today that he's very underleveraged, it's a sure sign that it's exactly the opposite, which is consistent with his released tax returns.

He always did call himself the King of Debt. I would love to know the terms that DB set for his most recent loans that are coming up, since they are the only lender left in the world willing to bankroll him (not including private loans from who knows).

What do you mean doubtful? Who are you comparing him to? Bill Gates? Does Trump now not count as having lots of money? Are we we rating our billionaires at this point? Trump's a poor billionaire or hundred millionaire or whatever you want to look at him as.

Trump most assuredly is filthy rich and has lots of money. You don't live the lifestyle he does and not have a lot of money.

[Aseahawkfan]

Holy cow! I'm watching the debate, trying to listen with an objective mind, but it's nothing but a big chit show. No way I can watch this for 90 minutes.

I thought Biden held his own, which is all he needed to do to win.

[RiverDog]

Holy cow! I'm watching the debate, trying to listen with an objective mind, but it's nothing but a big chit show. No way I can watch this for 90 minutes.

I thought Biden held his own, which is all he needed to do to win.

I handled 30 minutes of it and couldn't take anymore, retreating to my deck to nurse my two glasses of Chardonnay, listen to some music, light up my outdoor fireplace, and bbq a chicken breast on a nice indian summer evening. I'm not wasting my time left on this planet watching garbage like that.

The analysts are saying pretty much the same thing, that if there was a winner, that it was Biden. Early polling indicates that a slight majority thought Biden the winner, about the same margin as Biden has in the election polls going into the debate, so it doesn't appear to have changed anyone's mind, so since all Biden has to do is hold onto his lead, he wins. Trump himself, with his aggressive, no holds barred personal attacks, is responsible for setting the bar low for Sleepy Joe. All he had to do was show that he couldn't be bullied.

I did record it and will go back and watch what I didn't see so that I won't be dependent on the analysts opinions. There are a few things that I want to check out for myself, such as Wallace giving Trump an opportunity to denounce white supremacy groups and Trump responded 'Sure', but didn't go beyond that, even gave the groups legitimacy by saying “Proud Boys? Stand back and stand by … Somebody’s got to do something about antifa and the left.” I want to make sure that statement wasn't taken out of context, but it sounds like some pretty good attack ad material for the Biden campaign.

We still have two more live debates, but if they aren't any different than this one I doubt that it will change any election math. There's also the SCOTUS hearings that might be a factor in the Senate race but so far it doesn't appear to have changed anyone's mind as far as the POTUS goes. It's all going to come down to whether or not Biden can get his voters to the polls and not screw up their mail in ballots and nullify their vote.

[RiverDog]

Big fish? Yes. Lots of money? Doubtful. When Trump said today that he's very underleveraged, it's a sure sign that it's exactly the opposite, which is consistent with his released tax returns.

He always did call himself the King of Debt. I would love to know the terms that DB set for his most recent loans that are coming up, since they are the only lender left in the world willing to bankroll him (not including private loans from who knows).

What do you mean doubtful? Who are you comparing him to? Bill Gates? Does Trump now not count as having lots of money? Are we we rating our billionaires at this point? Trump's a poor billionaire or hundred millionaire or whatever you want to look at him as.

Trump most assuredly is filthy rich and has lots of money. You don't live the lifestyle he does and not have a lot of money.

The accusation is that Trump has grossly overstated his net worth, that he's extremely over leveraged, that various banks could foreclose on him, and that he's afraid of a 6 figure IRS income tax bill. I don't know how much of it is true, but he could be in for some very serious financial problems if he doesn't win re-election this fall.

[NorthHawk]

We know he's at least $300 million in debt and some reporters who have been digging for years suspect
it's closer to $1 Billion. Even if it's somewhere in between, he's not as rich as he's promoted himself to be.
The comments have been such that he would be far wealthier if he'd just sat on his daddy's money and
collected interest instead of trying to build business that for the most part failed miserably.

The problem with his debt is he can't get loans in the US and has had to go offshore to get refinancing.
So who does he owe the money to? Could it be he's dangling selling F35 planes to the UAE to get their
backing of his upcoming loan renewals? Maybe Putin is the benefactor and thus the private meetings with
nobody outside of an interpreter in the room.

[c_hawkbob]

“Proud Boys? Stand back and stand by … Somebody’s got to do something about antifa and the left.”

That was no mistake. He said exactly what he wanted to say and they (Proud Boys, Aryan Cowboys, et al) absolutely took that as their marching orders. It's nothing less than treasonous.

[RiverDog]

We know he's at least $300 million in debt and some reporters who have been digging for years suspect
it's closer to $1 Billion. Even if it's somewhere in between, he's not as rich as he's promoted himself to be.
The comments have been such that he would be far wealthier if he'd just sat on his daddy's money and
collected interest instead of trying to build business that for the most part failed miserably.

The problem with his debt is he can't get loans in the US and has had to go offshore to get refinancing.
So who does he owe the money to? Could it be he's dangling selling F35 planes to the UAE to get their
backing of his upcoming loan renewals? Maybe Putin is the benefactor and thus the private meetings with
nobody outside of an interpreter in the room.

Over the past 20 years, Trump has borrowed over $2 billion from Deutsche Bank, a German bank and one of the world's largest. There's a rumor that Trump had a very friendly relationship with Justin Kennedy, son of recently retired SCOTUS justice Anthony Kennedy and head of the real estate capital markets division at the bank who was helping Trump get the loans.

It will prove to be an interesting time once Trump is defeated in November, both with regards to this peaceful transition concern and Trump's impending financial problems. There's a report that if all Trump did was take the money his daddy gave him and simply invested it rather than use it on his various business ventures that he'd be worth over $2 billion today. So much for Idahawkman and burrton's claims that Trump's fortune was self made.

[NorthHawk]

Yeah, it's a tough life starting out with only $400 million (in todays dollars) and then think he's so hard done by and
life is so unfair to him.

[I-5]

Yeah, it's a tough life starting out with only $400 million (in todays dollars) and then think he's so hard done by and
life is so unfair to him

Starting with $400M from his dad, to being potentially $300M or more in debt coming due soon.

It makes you understand his private meeting with Putin in Helsinki (no interpreter, no stenographer) with a little more context. Deutsch Bank has already been implicated in a $20B money laundering scheme with Russian oligarchs. Follow the money indeed. Of course, Putin knows better than to put his name on any deals, but he runs the entire country, so connect the dots.

[NorthHawk]

Putin also uses the Russian Mafia (or organized criminals if you will) to do his dirty work. That way there is
plausible deniability on his part, and since he's one of the richest people in the world, it's quite possible he
is the guy pulling the strings on the loans even if it's behind the scenes.

This is just one possible scenario, but with American and western European banks outside of Deutchbank not
risking making loans to him it does make one wonder.

[Aseahawkfan]

We'll see if the money leads back to Russians. It could. Trump does a lot of business around the world and has strong ties in Eastern Europe where he likes to get his wives.

That still doesn't counter that almost half the nation voted for him and a sufficient number of states to win his election. No amount of alleged Russian interference alters that substantially.

[Aseahawkfan]

That was no mistake. He said exactly what he wanted to say and they (Proud Boys, Aryan Cowboys, et al) absolutely took that as their marching orders. It's nothing less than treasonous.

I don't even know who all these organizations are. All I know is there are people in all of them willing to act up and be stupid. It's pretty tiresome.

[Aseahawkfan]

I like that Biden is going in on Trump making him look weak. That's pretty funny. Maybe Biden is the guy to get this done. He's beating Trump up some. Telling him to shut up and not taking his crap. Maybe Biden is that grumpy old man Democrat willing to punch Trump in the nose a little and send him packing.

[RiverDog]

“Proud Boys? Stand back and stand by … Somebody’s got to do something about antifa and the left.”

That was no mistake. He said exactly what he wanted to say and they (Proud Boys, Aryan Cowboys, et al) absolutely took that as their marching orders. It's nothing less than treasonous.

I just got to that point in my recording of last night's debate. It was a fast moving exchange, with all 3 trying to talk at the same time.
Trump definitely had an opportunity to separate himself from the white supremacy groups but he kept trying to peddle one of his many conspiracy theories, that there exists other organized leftist hate groups equal to those on the right.

I don't think that Trump "said exactly what he wanted to say", or at least that's not how I would phrase it. What I think happened is that the exchange was so heated and fast moving that he made a Freudian slip, revealing his deep seated racism not only by failing to denounce them and their activities, but indicating that they were a legitimate counter group to these left wing organizations that he's convinced himself exists and that the white supremist groups serve a purpose, thus his "stand by" remark. If he had said what he wanted to say, he probably would have said something similar to his "many sides" Charlottesville comment that would condemn both the white supremist as well as Antifa or what ever it is that he's convinced himself that represents violent left wing extremism.

As Idahawkman would point out, none of us know DJT well enough to determine if he's a racist or not. But that exchange is awfully compelling evidence. If Trump weren't a racist, he would have no problem just coming out and making an unqualified statement denouncing white supremacy in a situation like that, but he just can't bring himself to do it. He always has to add some type of a kicker. And yes, I found it to be equally as outrageous as Cbob has.

[Aseahawkfan]

I just got to that point in my recording of last night's debate. It was a fast moving exchange, with all 3 trying to talk at the same time.
Trump definitely had an opportunity to separate himself from the white supremacy groups but he kept trying to peddle one of his many conspiracy theories, that there exists other organized leftist hate groups equal to those on the right.

I don't think that Trump "said exactly what he wanted to say", or at least that's not how I would phrase it. What I think happened is that the exchange was so heated and fast moving that he made a Freudian slip, revealing his deep seated racism not only by failing to denounce them and their activities, but indicating that they were a legitimate counter group to these left wing organizations that he's convinced himself exists and that the white supremist groups serve a purpose, thus his "stand by" remark. If he had said what he wanted to say, he probably would have said something similar to his "many sides" Charlottesville comment that would condemn both the white supremist as well as Antifa or what ever it is that he's convinced himself that represents violent left wing extremism.

As Idahawkman would point out, none of us know DJT well enough to determine if he's a racist or not. But that exchange is awfully compelling evidence. If Trump weren't a racist, he would have no problem just coming out and making an unqualified statement denouncing white supremacy in a situation like that, but he just can't bring himself to do it. He always has to add some type of a kicker. And yes, I found it to be equally as outrageous as Cbob has.

I thought about that. I'm still not sure why the moderator grouped right wing militia groups and white supremacist together. I would have made it clear I reject all white supremacist organizations, but would also have made it clear that I don't view all militias and similar organizations on the left and right in the same way. But I imagine Trump isn't that capable a speaker to make that shrewd type of commentary. And hindsight is 20/20, easier to think up a good comeback when not in the heat of the moment.

[I-5]

As Idahawkman would point out, none of us know DJT well enough to determine if he's a racist or not. But that exchange is awfully compelling evidence. If Trump weren't a racist, he would have no problem just coming out and making an unqualified statement denouncing white supremacy in a situation like that, but he just can't bring himself to do it. He always has to add some type of a kicker. And yes, I found it to be equally as outrageous as Cbob has.

Trump has all day every day to come out against white supremacists if he wants to. Just like he has all day every day to give details about his health plan. Don't hold your breath for either to happen.

[RiverDog]

Trump has all day every day to come out against white supremacists if he wants to. Just like he has all day every day to give details about his health plan. Don't hold your breath for either to happen.

This morning, in defense of his remarks, Trump said this:

“I don’t know who the Proud Boys are,” the president declared, in what constituted an admission that he was unaware of a group that the FBI has classified as an “extremist” org. “I mean. You’ll have to give me a definition because I really don’t know who they are. I can only say they have to stand down, let law enforcement do their work. Law enforcement will do the work more and more.”

He simply cannot plead ignorance as to who the Proud Boys are. The group is well known to the FBI and have been active in the riots this summer so he has obviously received briefings on the group and their activities. If he truly doesn't know who they are, then he's a bigger ignoramus than I've been saying he is.

Secondly, his ego is not permitting him to admit to making a mistake. He's still trying to spin his way out of those remarks rather than just coming out and denouncing the group like he was asked:

Asked just now if he welcomes the support of white supremacists who "love" him, Trump responded: "I want law and order to be a very important part. It's a very important part of my campaign...what I'm talking about is law enforcement...they should stop defunding the police."

Here's what they're saying on Fox News:

Even Brian Kilmeade, a Trump-friendly host on “Fox & Friends,” the president’s favorite television show, expressed sharp disappointment.

“Donald Trump ruined the biggest layup in the history of debates by not condemning white supremacists,” he said. “I don’t know if he didn’t hear it, but he’s gotta clarify that right away. That’s like, are you against evil? Why the president didn’t just knock it out of the park, I’m not sure.”

That "right away" was this morning, and he still didn't do it. Trump might have lost any chance he might have had to turn things around and win the election. Even if he eventually does come out and denounce white supremacy, it's going to be too little, too late. His hesitation is telling.

[I-5]

Riv, he's simply unable physically, psychologically, spiritually, mentally and in every other way to ever admit when he's wrong.

I myself had never heard of the Proud Boys until the president brought it up last night. Thanks Trump.

The town hall format is going to be interesting, because he will have to face most likely a hostile crowd, so based on his last non-rally outings, it's going to be another debacle.

I'm very curious what kind of 'additional tools' the center for presidential debates has in mind for the next stage debate...all my friends want either a mute button when they interrupt, or the sound proofed booth like they used to have for the Miss USA/Miss Universe pageants. His interruptions were a huge turnoff to anyone who watched, liberal or conservative.

[I-5]

I can only say they have to stand down, let law enforcement do their work. Law enforcement will do the work more and more.”

Bullshit. That's now what he said, and not what he meant. To make it even clearer, he literally asked them to 'monitor' the polling stations...it's clear he's not really trying to win or expecting to win, he's setting a flamethrower to the entire process, and literally told Chris Wallace he hopes the courts will somehow rescue him. At this point, I don't think the election will be anywhere even close to what the polls say. He pissed off a lot of my conservative friends last night.

[RiverDog]

I can only say they have to stand down, let law enforcement do their work. Law enforcement will do the work more and more.”

Bullshit. That's now what he said, and not what he meant. To make it even clearer, he literally asked them to 'monitor' the polling stations...it's clear he's not really trying to win or expecting to win, he's setting a flamethrower to the entire process, and literally told Chris Wallace he hopes the courts will somehow rescue him. At this point, I don't think the election will be anywhere even close to what the polls say. He pissed off a lot of my conservative friends last night.

Trump is extremely reluctant to openly denounce any person or group that supports him. Wallace knew that, so he gave Trump a clear opportunity to denounce them, but Trump tried to duck it and turn the question into a statement on law enforcement. He got frustrated by Wallace and Biden pushing him to give a direct answer to Wallace's question and hence the Freudian slip. As far as his reaction Wednesday morning, Trump's ego won't let him admit to a mistake and instead tries to spin his way out of it by tweaking his comments here and there to make them sound more reasonable. But in this case, the question was unambiguous and impossible to make more palatable. He was asked to denounce white supremacy and declined to do so.

I agree about this affecting his election chances. He might have been able to have mitigated the damage done Tuesday night by giving a clear and unsolicited response Wednesday morning, but that ship has sailed. Even if he does eventually end up denouncing them, it will look as if all he's doing is reacting to the outrage, that it doesn't come from his heart. And yes, I think it's safe to say that conservatives are upset. My Facebook news feed consisting of my 'deplorable' friends is usually packed with comments, but it's been pretty quiet the past 24 hours. There's not the usual attempt to spin Trump's comments following his saying something stupid like ingesting disinfectants.

[RiverDog]

Riv, he's simply unable physically, psychologically, spiritually, mentally and in every other way to ever admit when he's wrong.

Agreed. It's hard for anyone to admit that they're wrong, and next to impossible for a narcissist like DJT.

I myself had never heard of the Proud Boys until the president brought it up last night. Thanks Trump.

The town hall format is going to be interesting, because he will have to face most likely a hostile crowd, so based on his last non-rally outings, it's going to be another debacle.

I'm a little surprised by your admission, but I appreciate your candor. If it wasn't for the fact that they've been a subject of a recent FBI investigation and suspected in numerous violent protests this summer, I might be able to give Trump a break, too.

The audience in the town all debate may not be as hostile as you think. The Trump team complained loudly that the last time Trump appeared in a town hall meeting that the media stacked the deck against him so I think there's going to be an effort made to make sure it's either a neutral crowd or composed 50/50 of Trump and Biden supporters. In his last town hall meeting, Trump was a lot more placid and polite than he was with Biden and Wallace. Even if they don't change anything about the rules, I don't think you'll see him being nearly as combative as he won't want to insult members of the audience.

I'm very curious what kind of 'additional tools' the center for presidential debates has in mind for the next stage debate...all my friends want either a mute button when they interrupt, or the sound proofed booth like they used to have for the Miss USA/Miss Universe pageants. His interruptions were a huge turnoff to anyone who watched, liberal or conservative.

Actually Biden should be pressing for no changes at all. He was the clear winner in Tuesday's debate, not so much his own performance but because it exposed Trump, so why not continue to give him rope and let him hang himself?

There's a possibility that there won't be any changes, or that the last two debates get canceled. The Trump campaign is already complaining about the commission "moving the goal posts" and changing the rules that both sides agreed to. It's hard for me to see that happening as Trump needs the debates now more than ever if he is to turn around his fortunes.

[I-5]

Yeah, it’s not Biden pressing for changes, since he appeared actually presidential. The call for changes is more from both my progressive and conservative friends who would like to see and hear an actual debate. It would be fairly simple to fix, but the hard part is getting both parties esp Trump to agree, which is unlikely if it involves any kind of muzzle.

You’re right that Trump needs the debates and Biden does not. But is Trump really trying to win at this point? If he was, his non denunciation of white supremacists is suicidal, or he’s just too dumb to see it or he’s worried he’ll lose their votes. Who would have ever thought that was a voting bloc worthy of nurturing...

[RiverDog]

Yeah, it’s not Biden pressing for changes, since he appeared actually presidential. The call for changes is more from both my progressive and conservative friends who would like to see and hear an actual debate. It would be fairly simple to fix, but the hard part is getting both parties esp Trump to agree, which is unlikely if it involves any kind of muzzle.

I'm not sure if it's in Biden and the Democrats best interest to agree to a mute rule or not. Biden needs to have the ability to talk over Trump when he throws out an obvious lie. If Biden doesn't interrupt, then he's going to have to remember to correct Trump's misstatement when it's his turn to talk.

You’re right that Trump needs the debates and Biden does not. But is Trump really trying to win at this point? If he was, his non denunciation of white supremacists is suicidal, or he’s just too dumb to see it or he’s worried he’ll lose their votes. Who would have ever thought that was a voting bloc worthy of nurturing...

First of all, the right is spinning the controversial exchange to indicate that Trump did denounce white supremist when he answered Wallace's question with a "Sure". They are blaming Wallace for teaming up with Biden and going after Trump and setting him up.

There's about 40% of the electorate that will either rationalize Trump's racism or not care enough about it to cause them to give him up. I can guarantee you that if Idahawkman were still around that he'd find some way to rationalize Trump's comments. It's going to take several more days to see if the debate had any negative impact on voter preference, but I'm willing to bet that it doesn't move the needle more than one or two percent. People are that entrenched in their positions, one of the symptoms of this horrible divide we have as a nation.

Secondly, since the day he was elected, Trump has made no attempt whatsoever to expand his base. He apparently doesn't see the need to. That's why he's been so unsympathetic to the BLM movement. I can't believe that he wants to lose. We have to remember that Trump is not a career politician and isn't used to responding to public opinion or be politically correct. IMO he's a spoiled rich kid that has always been able to get anything he wanted without having to compromise. Couple that with his pig headedness and his narcissism and it might explain his behavior.

[c_hawkbob]

Well one result here in Kentucky is a surge in the demand for campaign yard signs. The morning news didn't say whether it was more for one party than the other but I did see on their FB page that the Paducah Democratic party office is all out of Biden Harris yard signs and they're trying to rush some up from Tennessee by Monday morning.

So perhaps that sh!tshow was enough to energize some previously disinterested left leaning voters at the grass roots level ... maybe enough to turn some of these red states purple.

[I-5]

First of all, the right is spinning the controversial exchange to indicate that Trump did denounce white supremist when he answered Wallace's question with a "Sure". They are blaming Wallace for teaming up with Biden and going after Trump and setting him up.There's about 40% of the electorate that will either rationalize Trump's racism or not care enough about it to cause them to give him up. I can guarantee you that if Idahawkman were still around that he'd find some way to rationalize Trump's comments.

Correct, but those are people that are already in his camp. He couldn't have been more clear, either during the debate, or his spin after. Saying he doesn't know who the Proud Boys while calling them out by name...okkkayyyyy.

Side note: why is there an alternative version of the word 'supremacist' being used? I've seen 'supremist' used now on multiple broadcasts, and here above. The word does exist, but are people aware of it?

Secondly, since the day he was elected, Trump has made no attempt whatsoever to expand his base. He apparently doesn't see the need to. That's why he's been so unsympathetic to the BLM movement. I can't believe that he wants to lose. We have to remember that Trump is not a career politician and isn't used to responding to public opinion or be politically correct. IMO he's a spoiled rich kid that has always been able to get anything he wanted without having to compromise. Couple that with his pig headedness and his narcissism and it might explain his behavior.

So, what is the objective of the debate for Trump...to mobilize his far right base? I'm not saying he wants to lose, but I'm saying he's not really trying to win. My take on it is that he already thinks he's going to lose, and is doing everything possible to sabotage either the process and/or the result, as well as do his best to stack the courts for him should it get that far. His words during the debate, and his actions outside of the debate point in that direction.

[c_hawkbob]

My take on it is that he already thinks he's going to lose, and is doing everything possible to sabotage either the process and/or the result, as well as do his best to stack the courts

This.

[Aseahawkfan]

Riv, he's simply unable physically, psychologically, spiritually, mentally and in every other way to ever admit when he's wrong.

I myself had never heard of the Proud Boys until the president brought it up last night. Thanks Trump.

The town hall format is going to be interesting, because he will have to face most likely a hostile crowd, so based on his last non-rally outings, it's going to be another debacle.

I'm very curious what kind of 'additional tools' the center for presidential debates has in mind for the next stage debate...all my friends want either a mute button when they interrupt, or the sound proofed booth like they used to have for the Miss USA/Miss Universe pageants. His interruptions were a huge turnoff to anyone who watched, liberal or conservative.

I don't know who all these organizations are either. I don't care to know or keep track of them. You don't need to be part of an organizations to support right or wrong. You need to know what that is and see when something is supportive of right and against wrong. Pretty easy idea that people vastly overcomplicate.

[RiverDog]

Side note: why is there an alternative version of the word 'supremacist' being used? I've seen 'supremist' used now on multiple broadcasts, and here above. The word does exist, but are people aware of it?

I guess I'm the guilty party. I've been using spell check a little too often. I've meant to say "supremacist' with an 'a'. I've never heard the term "supremist" used, and according to the 'urban dictionary', the two words are synonymous.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... =supremist

Secondly, since the day he was elected, Trump has made no attempt whatsoever to expand his base. He apparently doesn't see the need to. That's why he's been so unsympathetic to the BLM movement. I can't believe that he wants to lose. We have to remember that Trump is not a career politician and isn't used to responding to public opinion or be politically correct. IMO he's a spoiled rich kid that has always been able to get anything he wanted without having to compromise. Couple that with his pig headedness and his narcissism and it might explain his behavior.

So, what is the objective of the debate for Trump...to mobilize his far right base? I'm not saying he wants to lose, but I'm saying he's not really trying to win. My take on it is that he already thinks he's going to lose, and is doing everything possible to sabotage either the process and/or the result, as well as do his best to stack the courts for him should it get that far. His words during the debate, and his actions outside of the debate point in that direction.

Trump won a close election 4 years ago when he was way behind in the polls by using the same tactics he's using in this election, so it's very possible that he thinks it will work for him again this time. I honestly don't think he knows any other way. He's a bull in a China shop.

In some respects, you have to admire Trump because he refuses to change. One of my biggest complaints about a lot of politicians is that they are like a weather vane, pointing in what ever direction the political winds happen to be blowing. They have no political compass, no backbone. Not so with Trump. Love him or loathe him, what you see is what you get.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't hate Trump. I have no idea what he really thinks in his head or what he believes. I find his persona not in line with how I think a nation should be run. Some of my friends think I'm worrying too much about appearances versus what they call substance. I disagree. Part of the job of president is to keep the peace and act in a civil and polite manner when representing a nation and all the people within it. If you don't grasp that as Trump doesn't seem to grasp that, then you shouldn't be president. Most presidents don't foster division and acrimony like Trump. You don't attack your own press even if they are partisan idiots. You keep the peace and represent the nation. That's a major part of your job. If you're pitting Americans against each other, then you're not doing your job.

Many of his polices I'm fine with. Some are stupid like the immigration wall or pretending coal is coming back. Some are good for us like reducing the corporate tax rates and getting rid of unnecessary or overly cumbersome regulations.

Trump's handling of COVID19 along with almost every state is atrocious. The public fights, the lack of contact tracing and a national plan, and the general lack of direction by the Federal Government is terrible. State rights I respect. State rights during a global pandemic can go f**k themselves. If I were president, I would already have let the states know that we are closing the entire country in a coordinated fashion, contact tracing will be implemented, and science is going to prevail and be respected. Viruses don't care about partisan politics or what you think. They keep spreading if you allow them to. Idiots who think otherwise are tiresome.

And this fighting on stimulus is ridiculous. The people need help. The idiot states forced businesses into closure or bankruptcy with no plan in place to pay the people who can't work or lost their job. Get your heads out of your behinds and make sure people have the money to survive. What is wrong with Congress? You fricking idiots.

Then finding out our drug and PPE production is based outside the nation so we couldn't even use the Defense Production Act to get these going is insane. Our government should be held criminally liable for creating such a huge security issue as not having national PPE and drug production. We literally can't go to war with China right now because we would be cutting off our own supply chains. To have that level of a security issue against a powerful foreign competitor is ridiculous. I have no idea what administration allowed this to get to this level, but they should be seen as far more treasonous than Trump with his supposed Russian connections. These administrations truly selling us out to China for cheap manufacturing to the point of being unable to produce essential PPE and drugs and rare metals to China is a truly treasonous action that has compromised our national security worse than any of this Russian election crap. Russia can do very little to use. But apparently China can screw us heavily by cutting our PPE, access to rare metals, and access to essential life saving drugs off. But supposedly Russia is the bigger worry. This is exactly the type of American willful and partisan ignorance I cannot stand. China is a much, much, much bigger threat than Russia by leaps and bounds, yet the Democrats and Republicans are trying to sell us on Cold War crap from a Russia that is a shadow of what it was.

[I-5]

Trump won a close election 4 years ago when he was way behind in the polls by using the same tactics he's using in this election, so it's very possible that he thinks it will work for him again this time. I honestly don't think he knows any other way. He's a bull in a China shop.

Personally, I think one of the biggest if not the biggest factors in Trump's win in 2016 was just how unlikable Hillary is. Whether the credit goes to the GOP for vilifying her for years and years or not, it's hard to say for sure. She does have a secretive side as shown by her emails, which didn't yield much except harmful headlines, and I don't perceive her to be nefarious or criminal (and none has been proven despite hours and hours of testimony in congress (which I give her points for, something Trump would NEVER conceive of agreeing to), BUT I can totally see why people would hold that against her. She also has a certain smugness in how she runs her campaign that I didn't care for.

I can respect someone who sticks to their guns if that's Trump's MO, but his problem is that Joe is no Hillary. Joe is actually likeable, or as likeable as a politician could expect to be. Even the attacks on Biden by the right don't really sound that vilifying. 'Sleepy', 'old', 'puppet for the far left' aren't really that terrifying, and the desperate threats by Trump that Biden will take away your guns and religion...I don't think any but his most diehard cultists fall for it. Also, I think Biden knows he can push back harder than Hillary could in 2016, like when he said 'shut up, man' and called him a clown. If Hillary had done that, there would be no getting over it, but Trump didn't even complain this time.

[RiverDog]

Personally, I think one of the biggest if not the biggest factors in Trump's win in 2016 was just how unlikable Hillary is.

It's the main reason that I voted for the Libertarian, Gary Johnson, than the Dem candidate. I don't want to speak for Hawktalk as to his reasons only to say as much as he dislikes Trump, he, too, voted for Johnson rather than for Trump's primary opponent. Hillary was a horrible candidate. Outside of Trump, she had BY FAR the worst negative rating of any major party POTUS candidate since they started taking the survey.

I can respect someone who sticks to their guns if that's Trump's MO, but his problem is that Joe is no Hillary. Joe is actually likeable, or as likeable as a politician could expect to be. Even the attacks on Biden by the right don't really sound that vilifying. 'Sleepy', 'old', 'puppet for the far left' aren't really that terrifying, and the desperate threats by Trump that Biden will take away your guns and religion...I don't think any but his most diehard cultists fall for it. Also, I think Biden knows he can push back harder than Hillary could in 2016, like when he said 'shut up, man' and called him a clown. If Hillary had done that, there would be no getting over it, but Trump didn't even complain this time.[/quote]

Biden is palatable for me mainly due to his personality. I agree that he's a likeable person and is the type of person we need in both a pandemic and the social strife we're going through today. I don't think any one politician can heal this divide, but at least he won't pour fuel on it like Trump's doing. And I trust his management style a lot more than I do Trump's. So long as the Republicans hold one house in Congress, I'm good with a Biden presidency and will be voting for him as soon as my ballot arrives.

[NorthHawk]

A foreshadowing of the next debate if there is one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epX2SR_XlzI

[RiverDog]

A foreshadowing of the next debate if there is one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epX2SR_XlzI

Yea, that was a classic. But honestly, there were times during the debate that had I been in Biden's spot, Trump would have gotten a mouth full of knuckles.

[Aseahawkfan]

A foreshadowing of the next debate if there is one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epX2SR_XlzI

This would be awesome. Just straight up start swinging on each other. Trump would probably run. He's a big mouth, not a fighter.

[mykc14]

Personally, I think one of the biggest if not the biggest factors in Trump's win in 2016 was just how unlikable Hillary is..

I tend to agree with this. Especially how she started to look publically at the end of her campaign, but I think another deciding factor was the marginalization of the white voter by the Democratic party post Obama. Trump voiced what many white voters were feeling and it galvanized a certain base of Republicans. Trump still has that base, but I think his fringe voters 4 years ago, who couldn't stomach voting for Hilary, are more likely to vote for Biden and his 'moderate persona' that he has cultivated when juxtaposed with the more extreme liberals he was running against for Democratic nomination.

[RiverDog]

Personally, I think one of the biggest if not the biggest factors in Trump's win in 2016 was just how unlikable Hillary is..

I tend to agree with this. Especially how she started to look publically at the end of her campaign, but I think another deciding factor was the marginalization of the white voter by the Democratic party post Obama. Trump voiced what many white voters were feeling and it galvanized a certain base of Republicans. Trump still has that base, but I think his fringe voters 4 years ago, who couldn't stomach voting for Hilary, are more likely to vote for Biden and his 'moderate persona' that he has cultivated when juxtaposed with the more extreme liberals he was running against for Democratic nomination.

Agreed about Hillary. She had the highest negative rating BY FAR than any other major party candidate since they started doing the survey in the 50's.

Were it not for Trump, (Hillary) Clinton would reign as the least popular major-party presidential nominee in modern American history, the Washington Post noted. According to the poll, business mogul (Donald Trump) has a 63 percent unfavorable rating among Americans...Clinton’s negative image is essentially equal to Donald Trump’s. Thirty-eight percent of registered voters have a favorable impression of Clinton, while 59 percent do not. That’s on par with Trump’s 37/60 split.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-clint ... cord-high/

With her caustic rhetoric, Hillary motivated Trump's base and reinforced the perception that she was a vicious, divisive personality that did not play well with groups like white suburban women.

But there are other factors that were present in 2016 that are not in Trump's favor this time around. Hawktalk and myself both voted for Gary Johnson in 2016. Being that he was a former governor, he was relatively well known compared to the candidate the Libertarians are running this year. Johnson started out polling as high as 10%, eventually dwindling down to 3.5% by the time the election was held. That doesn't sound like much, but it could be the margin of victory in a close election like WI, MI, and PA in 2016 or FL in 2000.

Unlike 2016, both candidates are very well known to the public, and the result is that there are far fewer undecided voters than there was in 2016, and with Biden consistently polling at 50%, Trump is going to have to flip Biden voters to his column, a much more difficult prospect than swaying the opinion of an undecided voter. Some surveys following the 2016 election showed that as many as 13% of voters didn't make their decision until they stepped into the voting booth.

Although the analytical side of my brain tells me that Biden will win quite handily, my gut tells me to be cautious. I was dead wrong about Trump in 2016, and I don't want to make the same mistake twice.

[I-5]

“People who overcome stuttering have a harder time maintaining their train of thought when interrupted. Keep interrupting him and he’ll stumble when he tries to speak. This will enforce the ‘senile’ narrative.”

The quote above was Chris Christie's pre-debate advice for Trump. Not surprising in the least. That's hardball politics. Joe did fine - he really could be the role model for people trying to overcome speech impediments. The one time Trump tried to go after Hunter allowed Joe to show his support for his troubled son. I talked to some of my conservative dad friends about it, and and they were just as pissed at Trump for going after his son. I thought Joe turned that attack around to show what a decent and normal dad he is, but I doubt Trump could even identify with it.

[RiverDog]

“People who overcome stuttering have a harder time maintaining their train of thought when interrupted. Keep interrupting him and he’ll stumble when he tries to speak. This will enforce the ‘senile’ narrative.”

The quote above was Chris Christie's pre-debate advice for Trump. Not surprising in the least. That's hardball politics. Joe did fine - he really could be the role model for people trying to overcome speech impediments. The one time Trump tried to go after Hunter allowed Joe to show his support for his troubled son. I talked to some of my conservative dad friends about it, and and they were just as pissed at Trump for going after his son. I thought Joe turned that attack around to show what a decent and normal dad he is, but I doubt Trump could even identify with it.

I think that Biden did just fine, too. There were a few moments where he hesitated, but it wasn't all that noticeable.

More so than the stuttering, Biden's biggest problem is his gaffes, like when he addressed black conservatives by saying "if you vote for Trump, you ain't black", or something to that effect. If he can stay away from saying silly things like that, he'll do just fine.

[RiverDog]

Tonight will be the last of what was originally 3 scheduled debates, the 2nd one having been canceled after Trump contracted the virus and refused a virtual debate. With an estimated 25-30% of votes already cast and Biden having a substantial lead in the polls, conventional wisdom is that he will be playing a lot of defense, as one observer said, just stand back and let Trump be Trump. Biden wants to look in command of the facts and avoid the embarrassing gaffes he's been so prone to making over the course of his political career.

There will be a difference between this debate and the professional wrestling contest we witnessed last month. Both candidates will have their microphones muted for the 2 minutes their opponent has when asked a question by the moderator so it's not likely to be as raucous as the first debate.

The biggest unanswered question for Sleepy Joe, at least in my mind, will be the court packing issue, which in recent weeks has been thrust in front of the voters. Although it's not one of the announced subjects, it's almost certain that it will come up as during his last televised town hall interview, Biden agreed that the voters have a right to know his position and that he'd disclose it before the election.

For Trump, this is almost certainly his last, best chance to turn his campaign around. As was stated, the voting process is well underway and nearly everyone has him behind. It's 4th and 10 with 5 seconds left and Team Trump has the ball at midfield. It's his Hail Mary. Will he change course and appear sane and rational or will he become even more desperate and absurd? My guess is the latter.

I won't be watching it, at least not live. I have bigger priorities: A rather meaningless TNF football game.